Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Thursday, October 02, 2008

Ian Bell: Time for a Marxist interlude. Inherent contradictions of capitalism, anyone? Intrinsic instability? Or perhaps we could risk the simple rhetorical questions Herr Marx somehow forgot to ask. To wit: have you ever seen a poker game in which no-one can ever lose? And would you, in your right mind, ever trust such a game?

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Time for a Marxist interlude. Inherent contradictions of capitalism, anyone? Intrinsic instability? Or perhaps we could risk the simple rhetorical questions Herr Marx somehow forgot to ask. To wit: have you ever seen a poker game in which no-one can ever lose? And would you, in your right mind, ever trust such a game?

I was thinking something along these lines earlier today, or more accurately, that if this had happened in a non-capitalist society, it would be used by us as evidence of that competing system's failure.

It's not Marx, it's social psychology.

The whole point of the system has changed to keeping the rich richer, and fooling the rest into thinking they have a shot at "fuck you" money.

Reminds me of all the black youths you see practicing endless basketball in hood, when less than 1% of them will ever play in any league.

FEUDALISM is always the mask of capitalism, nothing more.

"It's not Marx, it's social psychology."

Or in other words, the observable behavior of economic actors.


"It's what known as a fire sale. In the reasoning of Karl Marx, never actually mistaken about the tendencies of economic actors, it stands as a definitive crisis. The world just changed, ready or not."


It's not Marx, it's social psychology.

#3 | Posted by Zatoichi

I agree completely.

I think it all started when we starting giving every kid a trophy, even the ones that lost.

I never have figured out how 'everybody' can be 'special'.
#############################

offtopic.
Bernie Sanders (I) vermont is on c-span saying the bankers ceo's that sucked huge exit packages should pay for this bail-out with the money they made off the deals. Go bernie.

"I think it all started when we starting giving every kid a trophy, even the ones that lost. "

Oh please, that was a terminal manifestation.

"In October 1997 the business correspondent of the New Yorker, John Cassidy, reported a conversation with an investment banker. 'The longer I spend on Wall Street, the more convinced I am that Marx was right,' the financier said. 'I am absolutely convinced that Marx's approach is the best way to look at capitalism.' His curiosity aroused, Cassidy read Marx for the first time. He found 'riveting passages about globalisation, inequality, political corruption, monopolisation, technical progress, the decline of high culture, and the enervating nature of modern existence - issues that economists are now confronting anew, sometimes without realising that they are walking in Marx's footsteps'."

www.guardian.co.uk

terminal manifestation.

#8 | Posted by Zatoichi

Sorry, i don't know much about psychology. i'm a technical guy. what is it?

Why not have all compensation over $1M be recallable for 3 years?

"I was thinking something along these lines earlier today, or more accurately, that if this had happened in a non-capitalist society, it would be used by us as evidence of that competing system's failure."


Can't be having any of that. Let's blame it on: community organizers/a particular piece of legislation/Democrats/
Republicans/Bush/Pelosi, etc.

Nevertheless, amid the unconscious, accidental poetry of dismal economics you will find the phrase "moral hazard". It means that you have to be stupid or mendacious to reward stupidity and mendacity. The "system" functions best when there are punishments as well as rewards.

guess that pretty much sums up where we are now.


Why not have all compensation over $1M be recallable for 3 years?

#11 | Posted by Danforth

Yea, and you could package them all together as 'compensation-based- securities' and sell dirivative positions.... oh wait, that's been tried.

i'm a technical guy. what is it?

#10 | Posted by Lipzoidial

I could be wrong, and the last time I tried to speak for Zat I definitely was, but I think that "terminal manifestation" was just his way of saying its an end result rather than the first signs like you were saying.

"Even those who gained most from the system began to question its viability. The billionaire speculator George Soros now warns that the herd instinct of capital-owners such as himself must be controlled before they trample everyone else underfoot. 'Marx and Engels gave a very good analysis of the capitalist system 150 years ago, better in some ways, I must say, than the equilibrium theory of classical economics,' he writes. 'The main reason why their dire predictions did not come true was because of countervailing political interventions in democratic countries. Unfortunately we are once again in danger of drawing the wrong conclusions from the lessons of history. This time the danger comes not from communism but from market fundamentalism.'"

www.guardian.co.uk

When I took Social Psych in the Spring of 1970 it led to what has been, until now, the coolest job I ever had; Tektite II.

www.archaeology.org

5:00pm
RLM 7.104
PIZZA SEMINAR: Prof. Roy Schwitters, UT-Austin, "Practical Particle Physics: Muon Tomography!"

www.ph.utexas.edu

However:
The mathematical certainty that homo sapiens was in for some fun was strikingly profound.

" When I took Social Psych in the Spring of 1970 "

www.psy.utexas.edu

Bob is one of the few reasons your airplanes are so damned safe.

The need of a constantly expanding market for its products chases the bourgeoisie over the entire surface of the globe. It must nestle everywhere, settle everywhere, establish connections everywhere.

The bourgeoisie has, through its exploitation of the world market, given a cosmopolitan character to production and consumption in every country. To the great chagrin of reactionaries, it has drawn from under the feet of industry the national ground on which it stood. All old-established national industries have been destroyed or are daily being destroyed. They are dislodged by new industries, whose introduction becomes a life and death question for all civilized nations, by industries that no longer work up indigenous raw material, but raw material drawn from the remotest zones; industries whose products are consumed, not only at home, but in every quarter of the globe. In place of the old wants, satisfied by the production of the country, we find new wants, requiring for their satisfaction the products of distant lands and climes. In place of the old local and national seclusion and self-sufficiency, we have intercourse in every direction, universal inter-dependence of nations. And as in material, so also in intellectual production. The intellectual creations of individual nations become common property. National one-sidedness and narrow-mindedness become more and more impossible, and from the numerous national and local literatures, there arises a world literature.

The bourgeoisie, by the rapid improvement of all instruments of production, by the immensely facilitated means of communication, draws all, even the most barbarian, nations into civilization. The cheap prices of commodities are the heavy artillery with which it forces the barbarians' intensely obstinate hatred of foreigners to capitulate. It compels all nations, on pain of extinction, to adopt the bourgeois mode of production; it compels them to introduce what it calls civilization into their midst, i.e., to become bourgeois themselves. In one word, it creates a world after its own image.


Marx had it right.

"Sorry, i don't know much about psychology. i'm a technical guy"

"i don't know much"

"i don't know"

"i don't"

I do.

You die.

"The need of a constantly expanding market for its products chases the bourgeoisie over the entire surface of the globe. It must nestle everywhere, settle everywhere, establish connections everywhere. "

It's an amazing passage, Money, considering it was written 150 years ago.

"When I took Social Psych in the Spring of 1970 it led to what has been, until now, the coolest job I ever had; Tektite II."

This thread isn't about your resume. Maybe you can post your own thread to talk about your great accomplishments. I'm sure it will get a lot of hits.

"considering it was written 150 years ago. "

Posted by nullifidian

1784 Benjamin Franklin, "Meteorological Imaginations and Conjectures (Paper Read 1784)." Memoirs of the Literary and Philosophical Society of Manchester 2nd ed., 1789: 373-77. REPRINTED Weatherwise 35, 262 (1982).

1801William Herschel, "Observations Tending to Investigate the Nature of the Sun..." Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London 265: 265-318.

1824 Joseph Fourier, "Remarques Gnrales Sur Les Tempratures Du Globe Terrestre Et Des Espaces Plantaires." Annales de Chemie et de Physique 27: 136-67. Translation by Ebeneser Burgess, "General Remarks on the Temperature of the Earth and Outer Space," American Journal of Science 32: 1-20 (1837) online here.

1827 Joseph Fourier, "Mmoire Sur Les Tempratures Du Globe Terrestre Et Des Espaces Plantaires." Mmoires de l'Acadmie Royale des Sciences 7: 569-604.

1838 Claude Pouillet, "Mmoire Sur La Chaleur Solaire..." Comptes Rendus de l'Acadmie des Sciences 7: 24-65. Translation by Richard Taylor, "Memoir on Solar Heat, the Radiative Effects of the Atmosphere, and the Temperature of Space," Scientific Memoirs 4 (London: Taylor and Francis, 1846), online here.

1844 J. Sparks, Life of Benjamin Franklin, Vol. 6. Boston: Tappan & Dennett.

1861 John Tyndall, "On the Absorption and Radiation of Heat by Gases and Vapours..." Philosophical Magazine ser. 4, 22: 169-94, 273-85. Online here.

1863 John Tyndall, "On Radiation through the Earth's Atmosphere." Philosophical Magazine ser. 4, 25: 200-206.

1863 John Tyndall, "On the Relation of Radiant Heat to Aqueous Vapor." Philosophical Magazine ser. 4, 26: 30-54.


www.aip.org

This thread isn't about your resume. Maybe you can post your own thread to talk about your great accomplishments. I'm sure it will get a lot of hits.

I am afraid Zat didn't take his pill today.

Homo sapiens is an oxymoron.

"1863 John Tyndall, "On the Relation of Radiant Heat to Aqueous Vapor." Philosophical Magazine ser. 4, 26: 30-54. "

And that has exactly what to do with this thread?

Nulli,

The whole thing is amasing, 150 years ago and the man was able to see capitalism all the way to its conclusion. No wonder the capitalists spend so much time slashing his thoughts as idiocy when they themselves are unable to grasp what he was actually stating.

Instead of looking at it with educational intellect and correcting the things that are detrimental to society they stuff the head in the hole and hope upon hope it is not true.

"And that has exactly what to do with this thread?"

Posted by nullifidian

huh? flag
Then he died.

Zat,

Why are you being such a asshole?

"Why are you being such a asshole?"

Posted by moneywar

Hell, I thought I was having a little fun.

Don't take life too seriously,
You won't get out alive ...

Zat,

I don't take life to seriously but do take rude behavior for what it is, and don't understand why you have chosen this thread to practice such.

I think the daily retort is better for your posts.

"don't understand why you have chosen this thread to practice such.'

Me neither.

Get a life.

We see then: the means of production and of exchange, on whose foundation the bourgeoisie built itself up, were generated in feudal society. At a certain stage in the development of these means of production and of exchange, the conditions under which feudal society produced and exchanged, the feudal organization of agriculture and manufacturing industry, in one word, the feudal relations of property became no longer compatible with the already developed productive forces; they became so many fetters. They had to be burst asunder; they were burst asunder.

Into their place stepped free competition, accompanied by a social and political constitution adapted in it, and the economic and political sway of the bourgeois class.

A similar movement is going on before our own eyes. Modern bourgeois society, with its relations of production, of exchange and of property, a society that has conjured up such gigantic means of production and of exchange, is like the sorcerer who is no longer able to control the powers of the nether world whom he has called up by his spells. For many a decade past, the history of industry and commerce is but the history of the revolt of modern productive forces against modern conditions of production, against the property relations that are the conditions for the existence of the bourgeois and of its rule. It is enough to mention the commercial crises that, by their periodical return, put the existence of the entire bourgeois society on its trial, each time more threateningly. In these crises, a great part not only of the existing products, but also of the previously created productive forces, are periodically destroyed. In these crises, there breaks out an epidemic that, in all earlier epochs, would have seemed an absurdity -- the epidemic of over-production. Society suddenly finds itself put back into a state of momentary barbarism; it appears as if a famine, a universal war of devastation, had cut off the supply of every means of subsistence; industry and commerce seem to be destroyed. And why? Because there is too much civilization, too much means of subsistence, too much industry, too much commerce. The productive forces at the disposal of society no longer tend to further the development of the conditions of bourgeois property; on the contrary, they have become too powerful for these conditions, by which they are fettered, and so soon as they overcome these fetters, they bring disorder into the whole of bourgeois society, endanger the existence of bourgeois property. The conditions of bourgeois society are too narrow to comprise the wealth created by them. And how does the bourgeoisie get over these crises? On the one hand, by enforced destruction of a mass of productive forces; on the other, by the conquest of new markets, and by the more thorough exploitation of the old ones. That is to say, by paving the way for more extensive and more destructive crises, and by diminishing the means whereby crises are prevented.



Wow! Sounding familiar!

I've been doing science since before I overhauled Sylvia Earle's SCUBA regulator in 1970.

www.archaeology.org

I'll be happy to give you a copy.

www.archaeology.org

5:00pm
RLM 7.104
PIZZA SEMINAR: Prof. Roy Schwitters, UT-Austin, "Practical Particle Physics: Muon Tomography!"

upload.wikimedia.org

Read it.

Me neither.

asshole!!

"Me neither.

Get a life."

Recite your accomplishments on another thread to someone who cares.

Come on, guys. Take it easy. Zat contaminated his bourbon pouring it into a Jack Daniels glass... Pretend like you're danni and Zat's me bringing up Nader again. Ignore him if you don't find his points contributing to the conversation.

Go ahead and bring up Nader. I don't see any evidence that Naderites are pariahs on this blog.

Bullshit!
This isn't capitalism. Its corporatism. Capitalism is free market trading. Not NAFTA, GAT, and Corporate welfare.
What is socialism, Communism, and nationalism? Its a merging of the banks, business, and government. Corporatism.
That's exactly what we have now.
All of you Americans are a bunch of commie/nazis, and you don't even know it.

A Nader quote, Why can't capitalism fail. Because it will always have socialism to bail it out.

I don't see any evidence that Naderites are pariahs on this blog.

#39 | Posted by nullifidian

That's because there aren't any Nader supporters besides me here. Maybe there is one or two others, but I have yet to see them out themselves.

Zat, what the fuck does particle physics have to do with Marxism?

##############################
###########

A Nader quote, Why can't capitalism fail. Because it will always have socialism to bail it out.

#40 | Posted by JeffnDenmark

don't tell the americans. they might stop waving their flags for a minute and actually think.

Marx, may have had some insights, but he miscalculated the intrinsic structuralism and evolutionary
motivations for people. He may have accounted for economic actors, but he fails in assessing the needs and desires of
kin selection. It was not known of at the time, hardly his fault....that being said....

In the case of the Kibbutz, truly a communal living, in line with Marx's theories, has failed. The phrase ""From each according
to his ability, to each according to his needs", has been replaced " "from each according to his preferences,
to each according to his needs."

Today they are being privatised, because the children don't want to
live on the Kibbutz with thier parents, once they get an education. Parents couldn't improve thier
childs lot in life, due to "communal" living arrangements. There are basic genetic / mate selection traits that
were uncovered from the Kibbutz experiment. The intrinsic structualism, and motivations of man
destroyed this "statism".

It lasted one generation, it is a failed concept, people want to better the lives of themselves and
thier children. It does work for some people, having talked to many that live and grew up on a Kibbutz,
it has its place in a society. For those that lack discipline, social outcast, homeless, or can't
seem to keep thier finances inorder, a Kibbutz type environment works well.

To study the beginning of Israel, with its struggle for survival against the odds,
gave rise to those kibbutzs and the concept of "we are in this together." Perhaps a little
reading of Eric Hoffer would be in order.

As someone who believes in evolutionary economies, I propose a diversity of systems, corporations,
capitalism, socialism, cooperatives, and private enterprise. One which is supports a diversity of systems, and adaptable to resource abundance, and allocation.

The United States has succeeded because it has been able to maintain this type of diversity, and
hopefully is a pendulum, and can make adjustments when destruction and succession is needed.

As with the failure of all systems proves, intrinsic instability, is not a function
of the "system" itself, but evolution and life.

To claim one "system" is the ultimate system, is a failure to understand evolution.

Good post, AM - yours or a c & p (just curious).

Ol' Karl was right about pure capitalism. As were others about the theory he proposed. Easy to do since every political/economic theory I've come across invariably finds itself in quicksand pretty soon after butting heads with reality. The ones which survive best are the ones which adapt best - yep, like with natural evolution. It is amazing that we humans keep stumbling into this truth and using it, yet keep ignoring it consciously, demanding purity and simplicity.

Why did you have to taint an objective criticism with the below?

"or those that lack discipline, social outcast, homeless, or can't
seem to keep thier finances inorder, a Kibbutz type environment works well."

Was it that difficult to refrain from the insults?

Where are the REAL economic experts in this discussion? No comment from heavy thinkers like - oh - The Cid, Vernon, Ooey, the bogus paratrooper. Presumably they only know Karl's younger brother Groucho. herm

The ones which survive best are the ones which adapt best - yep, like with natural evolution.

QFT

Agreed an evolved system is best.

Wot we have now is a devolving one.

Pure communism and pure capitalism have one thing in common.

They are both really really dumb ideas.

Allowing too much power to reside in either the world of BigBiz or BigGov is Koyaanisqatsi.

America was founded on the notion that it's dangerous to allow too much power to reside in too few hands. That a system of self regulating checks and balances are the only path to sanity and survival.

Corporate and governmental corruption of each other have eroded those balancing facors and led us all down a garden path replete with dangerous snakes at every turn.

Be Well.

"In the case of the Kibbutz, truly a communal living, in line with Marx's theories, has failed. "

Marx wrote nothing about "communal living". He advocated common ownership of the means of production, land, mineral resources, factories, etc., a totally different thing. That has nothing to do with hippie communes or kibbutzes, etc. Communes were proposed and established long before Marx.

America was founded on the notion that it's dangerous to allow too much power to reside in too few hands. That a system of self regulating checks and balances are the only path to sanity and survival.

Corporate and governmental corruption of each other have eroded those balancing facors and led us all down a garden path replete with dangerous snakes at every turn.

#47 | Posted by dethspud


Seems a system like that only lasts as long as there are people alive who remember what it was like when the masses stormed the bastille, sotospeak.

"Here is a little song I wrote
You might want to sing it note for note..."

No one seems to remember--we had regulations in place that kept this sort of crisis from happening. The regulations were in place for 66 years and worked just fine. Then they were removed.

I can understand people being angry at CEOs with multi million dollar parting gifts. But, who among us would turn the money down if in the same circumstances?

Congress removed the regulations---people took advantage of the circumstances---who is more to blame?

Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act

GRAMM is now McCains economic advisor.

The lesson is that Marxism and capitalism don't mix. The minute you force the system to lend money to people who can't pay it back, it'll bankrupt the banker every time.

Jim Johnson & his good Democrat friends caused this crises. You remember him. He was supposed to pick Obama's VP until they remembered who had just had his hand slapped in the "Countrywide" loan scandal.

America has been on a socialist bender, and the bills are getting large. Got a problem? Look to Washington to arrange a handout, or a safety net; if that scheme goes sour, expect a bailout. It has become politically incorrect to suggest that individual choice coupled with responsibility--including the possibility of going broke--makes for a healthier bottom line than an endless flow of subsidies and guarantees.

Hit with sticker-shock of $700 billion, give or take, American taxpayers are now taking a clear-eyed look at such policies and the risks and costs they entail. It's a healthy sign that Main Street is furious over government proposals to bail out Wall Street.

What's largely escaped notice, however, is the extent to which America in its foreign policy is increasingly in the business of subsidizing, guaranteeing and, in some instances, bailing out an array of thugocracies that make the bankers of Wall Street look like cookie-vending girl scouts. On the Third World front, this ranges from billions in so-called aid programs to some of the world's poorest countries, to a tacit understanding that in response to any disaster--an earthquake in Iran, a tsunami in Asia, a cyclone in Burma, famine-inducing bad weather in North Korea--the U.S. will dig into its deep pockets to offer relief.

That might sound laudable, some of the impulses behind it may well be noble, and in extreme emergencies, in the interest of sheer human decency, it may well be justified. But official American largesse has become so much the norm that by now it walks and quacks like a global entitlement program. And the axiom too often forgotten is that in today's world of high-tech, high-speed transportation, technology and markets, poverty is not as a rule an accident of nature. It is a result of repressive government policies that deprive people of the opportunity to help themselves.

"You die.

#21 | Posted by Zatoichi"

Saying the sun rises in the east is not especially intelligent, or profound. You are. Not.

BTW - you also die. It's kind of what we share in common.

.....path replete with dangerous snakes at every turn.


#47 | Posted by dethspud

Don't make this thread about your clown shows.

Waaaah! Please lift my suspension, Rcade. Pretty please! Waaah

--Rideon

I have never met a right winger, one of those so vocal in howling about Marxism and Socialism, who ever read Marx's Capital.

The book is eerily prescient about our modern crises--whether one likes it or not. And I am not a Marxist or a supporter of so-called Socialist countries.

We need to look carefully at what is going wrong and fix it, instead of bailing out the malefactors who have profited from their own wrong-doing.

All I have to say is that these supposed 'capitalists' don't seem to have much problem with socialism when it benifits them...

John, nice post.

Yes, there are quite of few of marx's writings that seem to reflect our modern crisis.

Afraid most people talk so negatively about marx but actually have never read his writings. Strange isn't it.

I live in a country which refuses to fund uninsured childrens health care for $2 billion (because we can't afford it), yet rushes to bailout Corporate criminals to the tune of $700 billion. The essential elements of Paulson's proposal remain intact. All these assholes did was add another $150 billion in pork, targeted at holdouts in the House.

What Goldman-Sachs exCEO turned US Secretary of the Treasury is doing is dumping worthless securities on the public in order to help the people who will never deliberately contribute anything to this country. The key elements are refunds for foriegners that G-Sax and other very big-wigs cheated so that they can shed what would otherwise be civil fraud lawsuits.

This is what happens when we don't adhere to our Constitution.

"Lenin was right. There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose."

I'd bet my last worthless dollar on Jefferson, who we failed to listen to:

The Federal Reserve is a PRIVATE bank.

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."
- Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Treasury Secretary Albert Gallatin (1802)

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a civilization, it expects what never was and what never will be.

- Thomas Jefferson

Dear Fellow American's:

It is time for us to wake up and stay free.

funny.. I still have a job, as do all of my neighbors.. I was out to eat tonight in a restaurant so crowded that we had to wait..

Most americans aren't being foreclosed on, most are working, and most will be.

There is a bump in the system.. a big one.. but not unprecedented as we're being told.. I wasn't around in the depression.. but I've read the stories.. nothing like that is happening..

Marxism sucks.. History is abundantly clear on that fact.. Capitalism isn't perfect, but it beats the hell out of marxism..

But.. hey, elect Obama and maybe you Marxists will get your chance.. he seems to admire it..

The first rule of economics is "BIG FISH EAT LITTLE FISH".

In a country which virtually all news is commercialized, it is the ONLY RULE.

People no longer have any voice, the short-lived victory last week excepted. Which only proves that no Government, by any label, can survive a General Strike.

People always hold real power, they are just too afraid or stupid to realize it.

Marxism sucks.. History is abundantly clear on that fact.. Capitalism isn't perfect, but it beats the hell out of marxism..

-----------------

Notice the omission of the word 'socialism'. Because to use that word would be to admit that capitalism is nothing more than socialism without the benifits to people.

I have never met a right winger, one of those so vocal in howling about Marxism and Socialism, who ever read Marx's Capital.

...and I've never met a left winger who rails against the evils of capitalism who ever read Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" or Thomas Malthus, "Essay on the Principle of Population".

Notice the omission of the word 'socialism'. Because to use that word would be to admit that capitalism is nothing more than socialism without the benifits to people.

Sorry for the omission kid.. (you can't be older than 14 to make statement like that)

SOCIALISM SUCKS HISTORY IS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR ON THAT

How's that kid?

"Marxism sucks.. History is abundantly clear on that fact.. Capitalism isn't perfect, but it beats the hell out of marxism.."

I doubt you've ever read a word of Marx.


"I'm not a Marxist"

--Karl Marx

"..and I've never met a left winger who rails against the evils of capitalism who ever read Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" or Thomas Malthus, "Essay on the Principle of Population"."

Read both.

Actually I was forced to.. so I did.. .

Interesting writer.. interesting ideas..

but history is the judge of his philosophy..

and the verdict is in.. it breeds death and misery..

Oh quite clearly nullifan. Most likely has read nothing.

To even the minimally observant the fact that this supposed 'capitalist' system need injections of public socialism to stay afloat has to disturb the waste product inside their skulls that they call their brains.

Even more amusing is that they very people who just got ass fucked out of their homes by that same 'capitalist' system are now being forced to use socialism to bail out that very system.

At some point the non-retarded are going to realise that the system is not in their interests, and that the system is rigged against them.


I have no problem with socialism if its voluntary. The problem is it's not.. if I choose not to take part in your socialist system I will be shot.

This podcast has the absolute best argument against socialism I've ever heard.
media.switchpod.com

and the verdict is in.. it breeds death and misery..

Really!

I wonder how much you actually know about history and being that judge.

By the way, have you looked at China lately, they seem to be doing quite well.

This is more like a National Socialist moment.. Mark my words the 4th Reich is unfolding before our eyes.

"but history is the judge of his philosophy..

and the verdict is in.. it breeds death and misery.. "


Well, as Chinese Premier Chou En-Lai said when asked about the historical effect of the French Revolution of 1789..."it's too soon to tell."

The sun does not "rise."

The Earth rotates.

Go find an inertial reference frame.

and the verdict is in.. it breeds death and misery..

Really!

I wonder how much you actually know about history and being that judge.

By the way, have you looked at China lately, they seem to be doing quite well.

@#73 | Posted by moneywar

Yeah, because they have a free market economic system. Hong Kong is the most economically free place on earth.

media.switchpod.com

History is abundantly clear on that fact.

Someone who is so attuned to the history of marxism is quite ignorant to the history of capitalism, wonder why.

Even in the last 10 years pure capitalism has been tried with nothing but failure to the aspect of war.

Hong Kong??????


Glad to see you are so up on the country of china, suppose you can come up with some other tid bit of information that is actually relevant.

And by the way, Hong Kong belongs to communist china and it is one of the most free markets of today. Wow! That's got to tell you something.

How's your capitalist doing with that free market.

@#78 | Posted by moneywar

Where?

In the US? HA! We do not have free market capitalism at all in any way shape or form.

Dude I need to go but really.. you can advocate for it all you like.. but you will NEVER NEVER NEVER get me to accept it.. you will have to kill me to get what you want. You are advocating for my death because I will never play along with such an evil thing. I work because it benefits me, I will never work to benefit "society" or you.. and everyone will do the same and not a fucking thing will ever be created built or invented. the east Germans had the same smoking 2 cycle engine car for 40 years, THAT is socialism. There was no incentive to make anything better.. while the West Germans.. they were making some of the best cars in the world. that is Capitalism.

Socialism doesn't work, thats why you need to enforce it with guns and build walls to keep people from escaping it. If it was such a great idea.. why do you have to use force on people to accept it?

media.switchpod.com

"Socialism doesn't work, thats why you need to enforce it with guns"

As if capitalism isn't enforced with guns.

jay,

I am not advocating anything, but it does appear you are doing just such a thing.

I am pointing out that marx called the shot about capitalism and how things will go down, you just can't seem to admit such a fact.

The real question here is, marx called this, and you seem to lack the ability to correct the problems marx brings out, why is that? Ignorance I suppose.

Socialism doesn't work, thats why you need to enforce it with guns and build walls to keep people from escaping it.

Wow! I suppose that is what we are doing in Iraq, inforcing socialism and building "green" walls because all those socialists need protection.

"Socialism doesn't work, thats why you need to enforce it with guns"

As if capitalism isn't enforced with guns.

--------------

iraq, afganistan, vietnam, cambodia, etc,etc, etc...

Dumb ass inbred motherfuckers.

Where are the REAL economic experts in this discussion? No comment from heavy thinkers like - oh - The Cid, Vernon, Ooey, the bogus paratrooper. Presumably they only know Karl's younger brother Groucho. herm

#46 | Posted by herm at 2008-10-02 01:08 PM | Reply

Sorry to disappoint you dipshit, but I have a life and several businesses to operate. I don't live with my mom and spend all day and night online.

Besides, this thread is nothing but a circle jerk for lazy people to complain how others who work hard expect to keep the money they earn. You think that because you are lazy, I should pay you.

I would offer a simple, thoughtful post on economics, but you would not understand.

Matt. 7:6 -- Cast not your pearls before swine

Besides, this thread is nothing but a circle jerk for lazy people to complain how others who work hard expect to keep the money they earn. You think that because you are lazy, I should pay you.

------------------

So why is it that we have to bail you corporate assholes out eh?

Answer: because you don't really work, you play the monopoly game and get socialism when you fuck it up.

Pigs at the trough

very well written article

Are you people that stupid? Tell me 1 country where the people had a better life under communisum vrs. capitalism.

Why did the wall fall in Berlin - the communistic economy could not keep up with the capialistic one.

Why did people STARVE in Cuba (any why did Fidel leave to get medical care if it is so good?)

Why are they starving in Korea?

When the Berlin wall fell - which side of the wall had 1) better environment 2) infrastucture 3) life style 4)healthier ?

This election is about; do we stay capitalistic or do we go communist under Obama? - with his tax tax tax and redistribution of wealth and the migration of our health care system under government control as well as the financial sector.

Liberty and Freedom are the ability to make the right decisions and prosper or make the wrong decision and fail...decision that you make personally - not are made for you.

Every government interaction that reduces the impact of bad decisons - has an equal impact on the ability to make good decisions and personally profit from them - and reduces a persons liberty and freedom.

Marx was - and is - wrong and MILLIONS have DIED because of him and MILLIONS more have suffered. Stalinist Russia - Mao's China - Cuba - Multiple countries in Africa.

Just look at the difference in China since they OPEN up their economic system and have capitalistic zones - Look at the difference in Eastern Europe - Look at the difference in Russia. But you guys WANT the US to go TOWARD where these countries have come FROM. ARE YOU THAT BLIND?


"Why did the wall fall in Berlin"

Poor construction?

"Why are they starving in Korea?"

That one's easy: not enough food.

"This election is about; do we stay capitalistic or do we go communist under Obama?"

The acid's really starting to kick in now, isn't it? Better buckle your seat belt, compadre.

"Just look at the difference in China since they OPEN up their economic system and have capitalistic zones"

Too bad those schmucks at Tienanmen Square didn't fully appreciate all the bennies capitalism brought them. At least they got a taste of Coca-Cola and a snap at a Big Mac.

"ARE YOU THAT BLIND?"

No. AND I'M NOT DEAF, EITHER!

Null,

I appreciate your attempt at trying to point out the evils of Capitalism, but Communism is certainly not the answer (Good idea, wrong species). What has been allowed to grow in the US is a form of Feudalism called Corporatism. It got start is the late 50s, with roots going back to 1913 (Federal Reserve and the Income tax), and has grown into the monster it is today.

I believe that we have 3 choices, the left, the right or more of the same (with is on a continuum by itself).

If we pick McCain and continue to vote in Republicans, we get more of the same raping Corporations.

If we pick Obama and continue to vote in Democrats into Congress, then we begin to move toward Communism.

However, there is a 3rd choice and that is to move toward the right and vote in someone who believes in much the same way as Ron Paul (He's too old to run the country). Why is it so wrong to go back and rebuild the country in much the same way that the authors of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence had in mind?

Are you people that stupid? Tell me 1 country where the people had a better life under communisum vrs. capitalism.

There's an ant hill in my back yard that does very well under communism.

This election is about; do we stay capitalistic or do we go communist under Obama? - with his tax tax tax and redistribution of wealth and the migration of our health care system under government control as well as the financial sector


It's a dangerous game. I would love to see the Democrats come in and "rape" the corporates. The only problem with that is that my job would certainly go overseas at that point. Force my company to pay me more, buy me insurance, or worse, pay into a government-run medical facility. My job would MOST certainly go overseas. Study Germany's system and you'll see what I mean.

Good idea? but you are shooting your most intelligent, industrious, productive workers in the head, so that the ones, not paying attention can have "Universal Health Care". Hmmmm

No! The focus MUST be on killing the Mega-corporation by protecting the little guy, the small business (under 50 employees). How about no taxes, federal and local. Rebates from the governments for paying exise taxes, etc. How about less regulation, meaning if Fred wants to start a bank, let him.

Communism has never been tried. We've made steps toward it, but it's never been fully implemented. Instead, we've got various shades of communism. On average, people are always happier, wealthier, and generally better off under a socialism than dog-eat-dog capitalism. Societies crumble when the wealthy and powerful control too much; class warfare destroyed the Roman Empire, and it looks like a class/race war is about to erupt in America.

On average, people are always happier, wealthier, and generally better off under a socialism than dog-eat-dog capitalism.

#93 | Posted by KnowsTooMuch


Do you have an example of this or are you just speculating.

...and I've never met a left winger who rails against the evils of capitalism who ever read Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" or Thomas Malthus, "Essay on the Principle of Population".

#66 | Posted by Farmer_John

Now you have, John.

And I'm still in love with your daughter. Whoa-OH!

Return to genesis.

This failure of the markets occurred because of the injection of socialist type operations that compromised it. Socialism has exerted control over socieities that has resulted in killings of hundreds of millions of people in pursuit of "the socialist ideal."

This meltdown is another example of social engineering resulting in a debacle.

These events began with a program designed to distribute wealth to the poor on a gratuitous basis. The ideological imperative demanded that "the poor" be provided with the opportunity to "own" housing.

Now since the poor lacked qualifications either in the form of assets or earning capacity, this created a dilemma. How could homes be "given" to the poor, who by traditional standards would not be able to pay for them.

No problem. "The plan" removed any constraints on creating mortgages, which could be "redeemed" by being sold to two quasi-governmental entities. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. There was no inquiry as to the ability of the borrowers to service the debt as that requirement for purchase of the debt by Fannie and Freddie, was essentially removed.

The incentives in the system generated activity to create more and more of the unserviceable "paper" as those participating in the process were enriched. The government with its introduction not only of incentives to make bad loans to "the poor," and particularly to "minority poor" without regard to ability to service the debt, but with coercion threatening the operation of companies that did not participate in the madness, is what created the current malaise.

It was "too much regulation" coercing companies to make bad loans to accomplish a socialist goal regardless of the consequences that brought us to this sad plight.

Was "the opportunity" and were "the incentives" that the program created, exploited by sharpies? Indeed they were. Who is basically responsible? Well, the leftist lawmakers and their cooperative legislative buddies, who went along with the game catering to the demands of groups supporting the programs, which also created a specious prosperity.

If you want to follow the history of the diminution of equity in homes purchase with increaing percentages of purrchase providing negative equity or no equity, google Dr. Chris Cagan and read some of the reports in pdf format.

What is the magnitude of the situation? Is there more than 70 trillion dollars at risk in mortgage backed securities. Is this "infusion" of capital less than some one percent of largely unsecured debt?

How will equilibrium be re-established? What will the shakeout do? Well, the entire process is being compromised form the otuset by the "goodies" included in the program for favored parties and groups. Why should tax preaks be given particular earmarked businesses while Joe Lunchbox, is fully taxed? You drive a school bus, are a janitor, work in an assembly plant, are a clerk, or even are a doctor or lawyer, and you are not exempted from taxation, but some others are arbitrarily in this legislation.

Imagine what will happen when the government provides health care to everyone as a mandate, and how the costws of such a program will be absorbed by the society.

Delcarations concerning what it would be good to have, are undoubtedly admirable. But then trying to make reality conform to the goal introduces instability in the system, which then crashes.








Socialism in action. Leninist-Stalinist socialism in the USSR, National Socialism in Nazi Germany, and probably that responsible for the greatest number of deaths, socialism in China under the regime of Chairman Mao Tse Tung. Hundreds of millions of people died. People were insecure in their homes and actions subject to the whims of tyrants. Confiscation of farms from kulaks resulted in millions of deaths from starvation in the USSR. Ill-conceived "industrialization programs" under Mao in China resulted in the deaths of tens of millions from starvation.

The governmental structures that "grow" under the Marxist systems seem to favor the seizure of power by narcissistic borderline personality types, and allow them free reign to do the harm that occurs.

Oh, there are some other examples of the operation of Marxist societies that should warm the cockles of the hearts of leftists. How about Pol Pot and his savagery in Cambodia, the Beloved Leaders in North Korea which has been a basket case in such matters as food production and sustaining its population. Or how about Comrade Ceausceau in Romania. Oh yes, the freedoms that abounded in Castro's Cuba, and the prosperity that ensued after the communist takeover is another case in point.

There are so many wondrous tales with which you lefties can regale us concerning the benefits of living under a socialist regime. Unfortunately, the models don't operate as predicted.

But since you folk are restricted to emotive thinking, well the more zealous among you, you can't process negative information, integrate it and analyze it. More's the pity.

"I appreciate your attempt at trying to point out the evils of Capitalism, but Communism is certainly not the answer "

This article is about Marx's critique of capitalism, not his prescription for what should replace it. You can agree with the descriptive Marx without necessarily agreeing with the prescriptive Marx.

"Socialism in action. Leninist-Stalinist socialism in the USSR, "

If you want to blame Marx for what some people did in his name, then I'm sure you will equally blame Jesus Christ for the Inquisition, Crusades, etc.

How will equilibrium be re-established? What will the shakeout do?

Get rid of Corporatism and Socialism in the Federal Government. Stop fucking around with Wimpy laws like Sarbanes-Oxley and support real laws like Sherman Anti-trust.

GET RID OF THE CORPORATION as an legal entity. Allow only individuals to practice "business". That's a drastic idea, but think about it. If the Individual who was profiting from the venture actual took on the risk. We can start with Corporate Welfare.

Get rid of this idea of Federal (Universal) Health Care and other Federal "programs" like all these Wars we have on social problems. Ever notice that since there is a War on something, the problem gets worse? WHY IS THAT?


"I appreciate your attempt at trying to point out the evils of Capitalism, but Communism is certainly not the answer "


This article is about Marx's critique of capitalism, not his prescription for what should replace it. You can agree with the descriptive Marx without necessarily agreeing with the prescriptive Marx.

#98 | Posted by nullifidian


:)


I just have a knee-jerk reaction to the word "Marx" :)

You can agree with the descriptive Marx without necessarily agreeing with the prescriptive Marx.

#98 | Posted by nullifidian

Good point. You must be some kind of philosophizer. ;-)

"Ever notice that since there is a War on something, the problem gets worse? WHY IS THAT? "

It becomes a cause, then a Business, then an Industry.


"Socialism in action. Leninist-Stalinist socialism in the USSR, "


If you want to blame Marx for what some people did in his name, then I'm sure you will equally blame Jesus Christ for the Inquisition, Crusades, etc.

#99 | Posted by nullifidian

Excellent point!

But, you're right, I'm getting offtrack by talking about goverments instead of ideals in the purest.

I believe that Communism can work if highly regulated, because Humans are not trustworthy and, what's more compelling, Humans are Capitalists not Communists. Humans crave Communism, i.e., Universal Health Care, but don't bother to understand the cost and effort of that undertaking.

However, Marx was fundamentally wrong by pointing out the evils of Capitalism. He was wrong because confusing Coapitalism with Feudalism or the more modern Corporatism.

"I just have a knee-jerk reaction to the word "Marx" :)"

Most people do, especially those who've never read him. I suggest, to understand capitalism, read Marx. And Adam Smith. And David Ricardo, John Stuart Mill, Max Weber, Thorstein Veblen, etc, etc. And Hayek and Friedman as well.

#82 | Posted by moneywar at 2008-10-02 08:47 PM

I am pointing out that marx called the shot about capitalism and how things will go down, you just can't seem to admit such a fact.

Marx had much of it wrong. He certainly erred in his simplistic projection of motivators, and the transformation of the nature of people as unselfish automatons once the socialist goal of providing economic security was achieved. The economy provides a milieu in which organisms compete for survival.

Marx was unsophisticated and used the model of the ant colony or beehive as a model for the operation of a system comprised of differentiated creatures evolved to another mode of functioning. Mammals are intrinsically competitive in their search for mates, for example, and in securing the advantages that would serve them well in such an endeavor. It seems that perpetuation of DNA may be a motivator that overrides the socialist ideal

Regarding the transiency of society, Marx reflected his religious indoctrination, that idea of millenianism when a perfect and unchanging world would be attained and remain unchanged forever because of its perfection.

As we know the Marxian dialectic predicts change until we find ourselves in the edenic world that communism delivers. Theses, antitheses, synthesis characterize the process. I would suggest to you that transiency has been a factor in all societies and that as the statis evanesces, the society perishes or gives rise to other forms. This is historically verifiable, and applied for example to feudalistic societies. And I call your attention to all of the communist societies that did not survive as such, but were transformed to avoid even greater turmoil. Transiency is not confined as a descriptor only of a capitalist system.

Marx was a single-minded ignoramus, and personally reportedly quite a nasty individual, including among his negatives being an abominable parent. Your life's guide?

Just an afternote. Marx reflected the idea that man triumphant had complete control of nature, and that we were not subject to the vagaries of existence ranging from climate changes to the effects of burgeoning populations, the exhaustion of high BTU fossil fuels which power our economy, and many other variables not subject to our dominion, and at whose mercy we remain. The "stability" that is implicit in Marx' view does not exist in nature or in the realities of this world.

This simplistic Marxist view is reflected also in the idea that the reason accomplishments do not occur is because of "bad people," the boogey man approach to life with the conjecture that all would be perfect except for those who impede this ascension. Of course, that justifies the identification of the intervenors, who prevent achievement of goals, and their elimination by deportation to a gulag, deliberate starvation, or the short-cut, execution.



"Ever notice that since there is a War on something, the problem gets worse? WHY IS THAT? "


It becomes a cause, then a Business, then an Industry.

#103 | Posted by Danforth

Yes. You're getting it.

A Government "sponsored" Industry.

See the craziness?

If Marx is being proven correct, the reason may be those who are provng him correct are secretly (or not so secretly) Marxists.

Think about it.

Trotskyites abound in the neocon ranks of our government, so why not Marxists.

The part I don't understand is WHY Americans let these types exist and have a voice in our government.

It doesn't add to the character of strength of our nation to have these "types" in our midst, making decisions, and directing policies that endanger our nation.

In a free country they are clearly the "enemy within."

"This simplistic Marxist view is reflected also in the idea that the reason accomplishments do not occur is because of "bad people," the boogey man approach to life with the conjecture that all would be perfect except for those who impede this ascension. "

Now here's another idiot who knows all about Marx and has obviously never read a word of him.


"I just have a knee-jerk reaction to the word "Marx" :)"


Most people do, especially those who've never read him. I suggest, to understand capitalism, read Marx. And Adam Smith. And David Ricardo, John Stuart Mill, Max Weber, Thorstein Veblen, etc, etc. And Hayek and Friedman as well.

#105 | Posted by nullifidian


I have "Cliff-noted" them, just as you have, but we come away with completely different philosophy, don't we? This is perfectly normal in a free society. The freedom to make up one's own mind.

Do you think I am less of a person because I happen to believe that Humans are more probable to embrace capitalism rather than fully achieve communism? That would be very un-Marxest of you. :)

"I have "Cliff-noted" them,"

You might try reading them. I have.

"Do you think I am less of a person because"

Of course not. You're taking this very personally.

Whatya gonna do? Nice college boy, eh? Don't wanna get mixed up in the family business? Now you wanna gun down a police captain because he slapped you in the face a little bit, huh? Whataya think this is, the Army, where you shoot 'em a mile away? You gotta get up close like this... badaBING! you blow their brains all over your nice Ivy League suit. C'mere... you're taking this very personal."

Now that I have more time I can get more in depth.

The statement that "Karl Marx was right" is totally bogus, and I will explain why.

"Every government program, law, or regulation is a demand that someone do what he doesn't want to do, refrain from doing what he does want to do, or pay for something he doesn't want to pay for. And those demands are backed up by police with guns." -- Harry Browne

Karl Marx was a great mind and he believed that capitalism was unfair. He's right on that part, it is absolutely unfair. He spent a lot of work and energy attempting to make the world fair and that is commendable. However the flaw is government itself, for many reasons.

1) In order to make it fair you have to use force of government to get people to operate in a fashion that benefits not themselves, as they would need no motivation to benefit themselves but to benefit an abstraction, "society" or "the country". In life you have a choice between wealth and leisure, when you remove the aspect of obtaining wealth then the obvious choice for people will be leisure. Socialism by itself brings slothfulness and in order to correct this inherent problem, government must force people to work to some degree. When you allow force.. you give good people the power to do good.. however that force will eventually be in the hands of bad people to do bad. You don't need force to have capitalism, it exists without any force.

2) Nobody actually controls government, and government politicizes and polarizes people against one another. This is shown in extreme in a Socialist Democracy. When government takes over a institution it immediately becomes a political object that people fight over. Take education for example. With our socialist education system, and no I'm not afraid to call it what it is, people are constantly at odds with each other over what why they are run and what goes on in them because there can only be one way, and one way is never right for everyone. This is why you hear national discussion about topics such as prayer in school, the pledge of allegiance, evolution vs creationism , birth control and sex education ans so many more issues. If government didn't control schools, and people could send their children to any type of school they wanted to, these issues would vanish.

3) I probably only have room on here to go over one more thing. Marx can't be right about capitalism by looking at America because America is not a true capitalistic society and it never really ever was.. since *basically* the birth of our nation. The 10 planks of the communist manifesto already exist to some degree depending on what one in America now. Some exist fully. Income tax, death tax, confiscation of property, central state control of banking, and the education system. All of that is socialism and its going on right now in America.. so the proper way to describe America is a "mixed system of socialism and capitalism" ..so when you say "it's clear the American system doesn't work, and that Marx was right.." I can counter that and claim that is because it's the socialism currently in our system that doesn't work.

You believe otherwise show me ONE government program that works, and by that I mean does exactly what it was supposed to do and cost less than a private industry could provide. There isn't one.

Null,


LOL!

you have duel personalities.

First, you are ready to debate on an educated, mature level (which I like) and then you turn into this 17-year-old, bad-ass, ranting, Dennis Miller, wanna be.

Of course I'm going to take it personally, I've seen your other side! :)

Kindly, please. I like our dicussion. keep going.

You believe otherwise show me ONE government program that works, and by that I mean does exactly what it was supposed to do and cost less than a private industry could provide. There isn't one.

I expect some responses to this.....

"There isn't one."

Horse manure. Social Security and Medicare have relatively miniscule overhead costs for their size and scope. No way they could be privatized for less.

Horse manure. Social Security and Medicare have relatively miniscule overhead costs for their size and scope. No way they could be privatized for less.

#115 | Posted by Danforth

Yeah! Don't forget the most efficient government program of all. The DMV!!!!!

Knowstoolittle,


###Communism has never been tried. We've made steps toward it, but it's never been fully implemented. Instead, we've got various shades of communism. On average, people are always happier, wealthier, and generally better off under a socialism than dog-eat-dog capitalism.#####

#93 | Posted by KnowsTooMuch at 2008-10-03 11:02 A

First - Communism HAS been tried and implemented. It could NEVER be fully implemented as it requires a Utopian society - Where people work because they want to - and do not mind giving away the fruits of thier labors to others. (which is basically what Obama is doing with his tax policy - except it is forced by the government)

2nd - NAME A SINGLE COUNTRY WHERE THE PEOPLE WERE BETTER OFF UNDER COMMUNISIUM

As to the Ant Colony - They take direction and serve the queen...if you are the queen it is a good deal ...if you are an ant..not so much.

In addition - last time I looked Humans were give a superior intellect by the All Mighty to make decisions for themselves - but if you think not having a choice, doing what you are told, and serving a ruler is the best society can offer...I suggest Zimbabwe or Cuba to you.

I don't want to live like that - and neither should you. But like most liberals you are too wimpy to make up your own minds and like being told what to believe...so you can think you are smarter than everyone else...when in fact you are just another "usefull idiot"

@#115 | Posted by Danforth

To believe you get more of a benefit from Social Security, than putting 14% (7% from you 7% from your employer that is a cost to have you) of your earning into a 401k for life is laughable. Social Security if it wasn't government run would be bankrupt but it is fueled by the general income tax fund so the actual cost is even higher than 14%.

Medicare is the same thing, there is no reason to believe that you can not do this privately, I actually believe Medicare is the cause of the health care crises because it creates a huge buyer in the market that can pay any price.


"What has always made a hell on earth is that man has tried to make it his heaven." - Friedrich Holderlin


"There isn't one."


Horse manure. Social Security and Medicare have relatively miniscule overhead costs for their size and scope. No way they could be privatized for less.

#115 | Posted by Danforth

It really depends on your idea of privatization. If you mean the Ross Perot level of Corporatism to privatize, say, something like the VA, then that's not the desirable way to "privatize" something. That's more like corporatizing a governmental responsibility.


Corporatations are evil. They have no soul.

"To believe you get more of a benefit from Social Security, "

You're moving the goalposts. Your barometer was "by that I mean does exactly what it was supposed to do and cost less than a private industry could provide."

"(Medicare) creates a huge buyer in the market that can pay any price."

Any price?!? Do you care for any Medicare patients? The prices they pay are bargain-basement.

@#117 | Posted by foshaffer

Liberals don't see the gun in the room.

They don't understand that government is not this lovely invention that can give you everything you want, but instead a system of cohesive force and violence that can take everything you have.

Every government program is backed up by violence, or the threat of violence.

In a free market there is no violence, people interact voluntarily because they want to.. when you buy someone from someone .. ever notice that you AND the cashier both say "thank you"? the reason for that is you wanted the product more than the money and he wanted the money more than the product. Voluntary interactions are most the most ethical interaction you can have because it benefits both people.

@#121 | Posted by Danforth

Any price?!? Do you care for any Medicare patients? The prices they pay are bargain-basement.

Yeah, because it sets the bar. All government programs are always bargain-basement, government housing sucks, government cheese sucks, and thankfully here we did not have to have government cars, they really suck.

@#121 | Posted by Danforth

If my wife asked me to go out and but a car.. and I went out and bought a Ford Fiesta for $100,000. Would that in your definition be successful? I have a car after all.. NO it's not because I got ripped off in the process and my wife would kick me out of the house for this failure. lol

"I probably only have room on here to go over one more thing. Marx can't be right about capitalism by looking at America because America is not a true capitalistic society and it never really ever was.."

Libertarian hogwash. Any time a system isn't 100% pure textbook model laissez-faire capitalism libertarians say one can't judge capitalism by the really existing capitalism. And since that model never exists in reality and never will, one can never criticize capitalism.

But of course, you can blather on about the wonders of the non-existent system if only it was implemented.

p.s. Marx used English capitalism as his model, not American capitalism.

@#120 | Posted by Eddie

Corporatations are evil. They have no soul.

Your half right, and I actually agree with you. Corporations are actually total fictional creations that exist as nothing more than words in some filing closet somewhere. They are evil because a corporation is basically government protection for rich business men so they can preform actions they can conduct business in a manner that they would be unable to in a free market.

@#125 | Posted by nullifidian

With so many aspects of economic control and regulation.. I would say its 60% to 70% to free, and so it 30% to 40% controlled (or in other words (30% to 40% not working)

Why do you think you need someone to tell you who you can buy sell and trade to? I mean that's what economic control eventually comes down to right?

Look Null, you can't get people to work for others with force and create a utopian society.

However if you think socialism is such a great idea for everyone else.. why don't you go start a socialist commune right now.. there is nothing stopping you from giving up all your property and working for others to create a "workers paradise" right now, and I have no problem at all if you want to do that to yourself. Go right ahead.

In the end you see... I give you the freedom to have the kind of system you want.. you are absolutely free to use socialism to your hearts content.. however you will not allow me that freedom in return to choose what I think works best for me. Your system demands that my participation is mandatory.. you have to force me to accept it. Do you think that's right or just? Do you think its really a good idea if you have to use force on others to get what you want? How does that make you any diffrent than a common thug, using force on his victims to get what he wants?


"There isn't one."


Horse manure. Social Security and Medicare have relatively miniscule overhead costs for their size and scope. No way they could be privatized for less.

#115 | Posted by Danforth

You're right, Medicare is running ok and so is S.S. and I agree with you. If it ain't broke....

However, Medicaid can be privatized. (And should be)

The way I'd do it, in the state of Colorado, (and this is the absolute short-story version) is to

Make it law that everyone must buy the minimum health care policy (like Massechusetts). Minimum meaning a catostrophic plan with a high deductable, say $3700-5000.

But only if they can afford it.

Use Medicaid funds to purchase a plan for those making under $40K a year ($65K for married)

Medicaid must get out of the Insurance business. They are NOT doing such a good job.


Yes, I would force EVERYONE who could afford a policy to buy one. There is no fine and the hospital will need to treat you as if you had insurance. In fact, you will go directly on Medicaid, but Medicaid would make you pay it back if they found out you could afford health insurance and could not show hardship for not buying it.

Are there any problems with this?

You know.. to you socialists out there, if I had a few hundred acres I would give you land to make your own socialist society with the condition that you let me videotape it for reality TV. (I'd be rich, ahh capitalism. :) )

If your system really is better, people would flock to it and ditch this half failing system we have now right? You could change the world right?

No.. people would be lazy, after a while nothing would get done, people would fight over property and you would probably starve.

The pilgrims tried exactly that, and they were starving until they changed, they divided up the land to the people to sink or swim on their own.. and the next year they were exporting corn. www.unsolvedmysteries.com

@#129 | Posted by eddie

Your idea to "go private" is a step in the right direction.. but your using the same old tool, force.

I can't accept a solution that is based on using force on someone else.

Let people voluntarily choose a solution that works best for them.

there is nothing stopping you from giving up all your property and working for others to create a "workers paradise" right now, and I have no problem at all if you want to do that to yourself. Go right ahead.

#128 | Posted by JayDee


I don't agree. What you are suggesting is completely impossible. Where on Earth are you going to do this without someone/some government interferring.

If it were possible, it would be happening now.

Can you think of a place on earth that has no people, nice climate, and full of nateral resources to be completely independent? (ok, besides Boulder)

You know.. to you socialists out there, if I had a few hundred acres I would give you land to make your own socialist society with the condition that you let me videotape it for reality TV. (I'd be rich, ahh capitalism. :) )

Are you kidding? This is set up to fail.

It has to be much larger than that and have the natural resources to support, probably a few hundred thousand residents.

#129 | Posted by eddie

Actually that could work. It takes the burden off the caregivers to collect from deadbeats. Everyone has a social security card. You only pay taxes if you use it. Issue them an insurance card. You can still have your own insurance. If they use the insurance card the IRS collection the money. Vague and simplistic but it is a start. Things could be worse.

@#132 | Posted by Eddie

If it were possible, it would be happening now.

Can you think of a place on earth that has no people, nice climate, and full of nateral resources to be completely independent? (ok, besides Boulder)

Ted Turner owns about half of the Ruby Vally in Montana, pitch my idea to him.. you could easily create a town out there, have your commune produce water, wheat, and cattle. and import ::gasp:: or buy, everything else you need from outside and divvy it up at the border.

You have the right to contract now so you can contract an arrangement with others for this commune.. you just cant force them to stay on the commune as your not government.

You know.. to you socialists out there, if I had a few hundred acres I would give you land to make your own socialist society with the condition that you let me videotape it for reality TV. (I'd be rich, ahh capitalism. :) )

It's been tried.

It failed miserably.

Google "New Harmony".

New Harmony being but one example.

New Harmony was the follow-up to Harmony - actually, Harmony was sold to the founder of New Harmony.

"Google "New Harmony"."

But didn't they fail because they believed in work and education, but no sex?

#135 | Posted by JayDee

Interesting read on the Pilgrams and I am understanding what you are getting at, however, it's not realistic, but an experiment. And it always will be just that; an interesting experiment (i.e. Paris Commune).

The Pilgram Adventure was only out of necessity. When others started arriving, they gave up their Social ways to capitalism, because it's the natural order of Human Beings.

"However if you think socialism is such a great idea for everyone else.. why don't you go start a socialist commune right now.. "

You're blowing a lot of straw here. This thread is about Marx's critique of capitalism, not the viability and desirability of any specific alternative. That's a different subject worthy of its own thread. Nobody is offering any utopian blueprints here, except perhaps from free market utopians like yourself. Capitalism will most likely evolve on an ad-hoc, trial and error basis to something different. The only thing certain is, capitalism is not the "end of history." That's naive and historically ignorant.

"they gave up their Social ways to capitalism, because it's the natural order of Human Beings."

Yeah, that's what was said about slavery, feudalism, the divine right of kings, etc. It's funny how people always believe the system they are currently living in is the "natural order."

I wouldn't join it but If voluntary socialism worked I would be thrilled because you would no longer feel you needed to force me and everyone else who didn't want it into it.. and if you really created a better system great.

I just can't see it working though, greed is kinda become a bad word but it is what drives us, its part of our nature.. even a 2 year old has these traits.. (you would know if you ever tried to get something away from them.. MINE MINE.. lol)

I mean admittedly I work my job for myself to better my life, If I couldn't do that, and I had to have the same as everyone else.. I would play video games all day, go fishing, or produce music. There is just no way I would be working hard, and thats why you would have to use force.

One of the most brilliant computer scientists I have ever met was from the Soviet union. In the soviet union he was a tailor.. this is the job he was given after he was released from the soviet army where he served in Afghanistan.. (he said that the soviet army was like being in prison.) Under government control he is a mere worker bee.. but here he has the freedom to do great things and be wildly successful.


"they gave up their Social ways to capitalism, because it's the natural order of Human Beings."


Yeah, that's what was said about slavery, feudalism, the divine right of kings, etc. It's funny how people always believe the system they are currently living in is the "natural order."

#141 | Posted by nullifidian

I don't agree with any of those references.

However, Capitalism is at the base of all of them.

Capitalism is also at the base of Socialism, etc.

Hoever, not at the base of communism and that's why it can only exist in theory.


But, back to the subject.

I maintain, that in this country we should get back to the basics, but save many of the good structure that has developed, like Anti-trust.

"I maintain, that in this country we should get back to the basics, but save many of the good structure that has developed, like Anti-trust."

Surely you don't mean to enforce the anti-trust laws, that is unRepublican, unAmerican....in America post Ronnie Raygun....one good thing about the economic crisis is that finally millions of Americans are going to relearn their history of American and put old Ronnie in his appropriate place as the president who first declared war on the American worker.

Karl Marx was prolific in his theorizing and his writing. In that way he was similar to Sigmund Freud. The net result is, supporters of Marx can always find lots of his material which has been proven true. Similarly, deriders of Marx can always find lots of his material which has been proven false. Being so prolific, almost all bases are covered at one time or another.

Karl Marx was prolific in his theorizing and his writing. In that way he was similar to Sigmund Freud. The net result is, supporters of Marx can always find lots of his material which has been proven true. Similarly, deriders of Marx can always find lots of his material which has been proven false. Being so prolific, almost all bases are covered at one time or another.

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