House GOP leaders similarly voiced support for the $700 billion bailout and vowed to try to get fellow Republicans to back it.

"Nobody wants to have to support this bill," said Rep. John A. Boehner, R-Ohio, the minority leader. But, he added, "I'm encouraging every member whose conscience will allow them to support this."

It was opposition from within their ranks that nearly derailed the package late last week. Many GOP lawmakers believe the government shouldn't interfere in financial markets.

If they don't interfere any more we won't have any financial markets left to not interfere in.

Corky, do you really want to defend this? It looks like the Dems completely sold us out. There is NO help for troubled homeowners. According to one AP report, Obama was the weak link:

More from another article:

The Dems had originally demanded the banks at least be willing to take a look at renegotiating with the borrowers of these subprime loans some of the details to at least see if something could be worked out with the borrowers and perhaps new finance terms could reached on some of those loans so they could stay in their homes.

The Republicans refused. They only wanted Wall Street bailed out. Screw helping any of the homeowners taken in by the moneyboys subprimes scams.

Nice, huh?

Anyone who thinks we taxpayers will ever see one thin dime of this money returned to us is a fool.

We have just witnessed the biggest scam and out right theft and plundering of our U.S. Treasury that any of us will ever see again in our lifetime.

Someone has got to help me with this. How does the guy whose mismanagement of the mortgage crisis led to the biggest financial crisis since the great depression walk into a room and ask for a $700B blank check to fix his screwup, and count very limited oversight as a concession on his part?

~Phoenix

Ummm... that'd prolly have sommat to do with the serious disconnect between public opinion and public policy.

In short, the will of the people must not be listened to and obeyed but only given lip sevice while industries the government are supposed to keep an eye on and regulate literally write their own policy.

See: Cheney's behind closed doors energy policy sessions as a recent example.

How do they think they can get away with it?

Because the corporate media are powerful enuff to shape public opinion under the guise of reflecting it.

Spud calls it the 51/49% solution and it's been aborning fer well over six decades now by Spud's reckoning.

The only possible counter to this is if more people start thinking critically about all aspects of government and BigBiz from both the MSM and alternate media sources like blog-world.

Theoretically a tipping point of conciousness can be reached at which time enuff people will be informed enuff and galvinised enuff to effect positive change.

Is one of the reasons Spud hangs out in blogworld, doncha know.

Well that and RCade's excellent ham sandwiches.

/Very obscure joke.

Be Well.

The Republicans refused. They only wanted Wall Street bailed out...

#5 | Posted by CalifChris

Right, the Republicans want Wall Street bailed out. Can't happen without the Dems. This "deal" is highway robbery of ordinary Americans, and if the Dems accept it, they're as corrupt as the Republicans.

...and if the Dems accept it, they're as corrupt as the Republicans.

I agree with you there, Phoenix.

They are ALL crooks and this November we should throw all the bums out!

Phoenix

Pussy Pelosi is a disgrace.

She rolled over on not funding Bush's war.
She keeps giving him carte blanche checks for his war with no accountability for how the money is spent.

She was too scared to bring up impeachment hearings on Bush.

She rolled over on off-shore drilling.

And now she's rolled over on giving Bush and his henchment $700,000,000 of our taxpayer dollars never to be seen again.

Pussy Pelosi, the first woman to ever be leader of the House, has disgraced the office.

henchment = henchmen

oops --

left off three zeros!

should have been $700,000,000,000 not $700,000,000

Hey didn't Pelosi lose money on this whole mess?? Wouldn't You think it would be a conflict of interest for Pelosi to vote on the bailout measure??

Larry

Pussy Pelosi is a disgrace

~CChris

Nancy "Impeachment is off the table" Pelosi?

She's part of the problem not the solution.

She needs to be let go.

She's one of the bums that seriously need throwing out.

Be Well.

Tater

Didn't you read my post?

Did you think my post was favorable towards Pelosi???

It was the exact opposite. Why do you think I called her "Pussy Pelosi" anyway.

She hasn't the guts to do anything. Her head should roll with the rest of them.

LARRY

You want to see the "conflicts of interest" in letting these politicians vote for a bailout that will make your hair stand on end?

Read this link and look at the mulit-millions all these politicians (or their spouses) had personally invested in these all companies that went down but are now being bailed out by those same politicians.

Didn't you read my post?

Did you think my post was favorable towards Pelosi???

Wot part of Spud agreeing with you are you not getting?

Prolly should have sed "Agreed" in there somewhere.

Spud's been calling her Nancy peLOUSY fer a while now.

She's just a Dem war profiteer to Spud.

I find this line from the article I linke above VERY suspicious --

John McCain, the Republican presidential nominee, avoided potential losses. Because of the Arizona senator's run for the White House, his wife, Cindy, last year liquidated a blind trust that had contained stock in AIG, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Lehman. The amounts of stock she had owned weren't disclosed.

Could the REAL reason McCain's wife liquidated her blind trust with those holdings be because John "I a deregulator guy" McCain knew these institutions were all to fail months ago? Hmmm?

CHRIS

Of course he knew. In fact, I think it was planned.

I keep thinking back to McCain's son, Andrew, on the board of Silver State Bank in Nevada, who cashed in his chips and resigned two months before that bank collapsed.

Crushing debt and a demorialized middle class are much easier to control as the neocons march toward a two class system ~ the very poor and the very rich.

It's a terrible price for the middle class to pay but the one silver lining to this $700,000,000,000 price tag is that Bush/Cheney can't afford to start World War III.

Corky, do you really want to defend this? It looks like the Dems completely sold us out. There is NO help for troubled homeowners. According to one AP report, Obama was the weak link:

It was Obama who first signaled Democrats were willing to give up some of their favorite proposals. He told reporters Wednesday that the bankruptcy measure was a priority, but that it "probably something that we shouldn't try to do in this piece of legislation."

Of course Barack Goldman Sachs Obama is the weak link. He is a whore for the banking elite. Anyone who cannot see that is willfully ignoring it.

I don't think it's going to work.

I just knew John McCain would save us !!

$700,000,000,000 price tag is that Bush/Cheney can't afford to start World War III.

#21 | Posted by Twinpac

What makes you think that? They can't afford this bailout and couldn't afford the current war yet that didn't stop them.

IN THE FUTURE:

There will be a revolution. It is unstoppable.

The form of that revolution is yet to be determined.

Our financial system is untenable.

We cannot continue these policies.

$700 B is a bandage on a gaping wound.

(What if the world says no to giving us money?).

Cause sooner or later it will have to happen, it is inevitable.

What happens when the chips are called in. DC and Wall St. cant find dealers to supply them with their junk?

Collapse.

The Banks will fail.

The Govt will be bankrupt.

Jobs will be lost. There will be turmoil.

Only then, when the system is broken, when there are food riots, riots for fuel, when the utilities dont work.

Only then will the system be changed.

You read it here first.

Invest in a gun, in bullets and a really really nasty dog.

Are we seeing yet another step towards what amounts to Fascism?

Fourteen characteristics of Fascism as defined by Dr. Lawrence Britt:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

4. Supremacy of the Military

5. Rampant Sexism

6. Controlled Mass Media

7. Obsession with National Security

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined

9. Corporate Power is Protected

10. Labor Power is Suppressed

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

14. Fraudulent Elections

Source and definitions of above here:

"Invest in a gun, in bullets..."

#26 | Posted by truthhurts

Though I don't disagree, what will that really get you and what will you become in the process?

I think I already had this conversation yesterday....

-Rush job

I guess we could wait for several more bank failures, no credit, and a 30 trillion dollar run on money market funds, but why?

And I must say, it is bad enough to have to listen to fringe Libertarian looney toons and hypocritical House Republicans whine about something that no one likes, but that has to be done, without also having to listen the usual suspect pants-pissers go on about how they didn't get all the things this country needs in this one Bill.

If it's good enough for Obama, it ought to be good enough for you.

Posted by Corky at 2008-09-28 03:53 PM

Deal Reached on Bailout

-Refuse to sign

Then the inevitable happens and one loses one's nose to spite one's face.

It isn't an answer. Obama got as much as he could, and knows he can get most of the rest latter.

Have a little faith in your candidate. There was nothing else to do.

And America isn't dying because everyone didn't selfishly get everything they wanted in this one Bill.

The far right and the far left sound more alike each day.

Posted by Corky at 2008-09-28 05:43 PM | Reply

Deal Reached on Bailout

Sounds like fun.

Tell Obama and the Clinton economic team and the rest of us exactly how that would work, and how you would get it passed and veto-proofed before the inevitable happens?

Posted by Corky at 2008-09-28 05:23 PM | Reply

Deal Reached on Bailout

-Today ...the music died.

What was your solution?

No credit? More banks down? A 30 trillion dollar run on money markets? Lost jobs, closed businesses?

Obama thought this way the best of bad choices in a bad situation, but I don't see him presiding over the death of America.

Cinch thy girdle.

Posted by Corky at 2008-09-28 04:58 PM

On the cause of the crisis

Though I don't disagree, what will that really get you and what will you become in the process?

#28 | Posted by ZOT

Well you must take into consideration 2 facts.

The incredible glut of guns in our society.

The incredible rise of crime that is sure to follow in the wake of an economic collapse.

It may very well become dog eat dog.

The public is against this bullshit by a margin of 300:1. This ratio applies to those who will get off their butts and write Congress.

This Bill is obviously a reward for white collar crime. Those who play along will see their campaign coffers filled, only to be quickly recycled into Corporate Media Bank Accounts.

The underlying problem is that Real Estate prices are too high, relative to wages. This bill does not address that problem. All it does is delay the drop dead date until another administration is in power. It does that by temporarily proping up values on toxic paper held by the perpetrators of this fraud. That and keeping those $100K donors happy is the only real purpose. Rethuglicans will then blame the Demoflats.

Unlike the Immigration Reform Bullshit, Congress is not being reposnsive to the public's legitimate concerns. Proof that the majority are owned by Wall Street, including Obama who has opted in and McCain who continues to try to have it both ways.

Though I don't disagree, what will that really get you and what will you become in the process?

It isn't about what you get. It's about what will you get to keep?

It isn't about what you get. It's about what will you get to keep?

#32 | Posted by IraqiBukkake

Yeah... the bill.

"It may very well become dog eat dog."

#30 | Posted by truthhurts

It may very well become eat your dog, then eat your neighbor's dog.

The 3 A.M. Call

By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: September 28, 2008

It's 3 a.m., a few months into 2009, and the phone in the White House rings. Several big hedge funds are about to fail, says the voice on the line, and there's likely to be chaos when the market opens. Whom do you trust to take that call?

I'm not being melodramatic. The bailout plan released yesterday is a lot better than the proposal Henry Paulson first put out sufficiently so to be worth passing. But it's not what you'd actually call a good plan, and it won't end the crisis. The odds are that the next president will have to deal with some major financial emergencies.

"The underlying problem is that Real Estate prices are too high, relative to wages. "

#31 | Posted by nutcase

Another aspect: though real estate prices may be dropping, the cost of materials to build new structures or upgrade current structures continues to rise.

So while the value of my home may be decreasing (thus one positive being that the property taxes may decrease a bit), the insurance I carry on the home will not also decrease: in fact, it will continue to rise.

But then if the property taxes decrease on the home, then revenues subsequently drop for those public institutions that derive the majority of their support from property taxes, such as public schools.

Another argument for why schools should never be funded with property taxes.

Don't interfere in the markets. Let the invisible hand do it's magic.

And stop being so fucking greedy. Take the loses the same as you took the gains. Don't interfere in the markets.

The bailout plan released yesterday is a lot better than the proposal Henry Paulson first put out sufficiently so to be worth passing. But it's not what you'd actually call a good plan, and it won't end the crisis.

Ha ha ha ha ha...this is what I've been saying all along.

Democrats: We're still gonna fuck you, but we brought the Crisco!

Let the invisible hand do it's magic.
#38 | Posted by Lipzoidial

John Stuart Mill said that nationalism was the invisible hand that would keep markets in check. Now that money knows no national boundaries, the invisible hand has been amputated.

Have a little faith in your candidate. There was nothing else to do. -- Corky

They just led us into the biggest financial crisis since the Great Depression, and "Trust us" is the best you've got?

Tell Obama and the Clinton economic team and the rest of us exactly how that would work, and how you would get it passed and veto-proofed before the inevitable happens? -- Corky

Taxpayers have been clear. We want the money to go to the ordinary Americans who have been hurt by Wall Street's mismanagement, not to the people who mismanaged it.

Congress and the administration are being paid to figure out how to get that done. If they can't do it, fire 'em.

And you can paint impending disaster scenes all day. Right now I'll take my chances with the 200 or so economists who have opposed the bailout.

You could find thousands of economists who support it.

The crisis has gone far beyond the criminal actions of a few, including politicians.

No action and the country as we know it would not be the same for a decade.

It would mean lost jobs and bankrupt businesses and retirement funds for millions of people who had nothing to do with creating the problem.

I wouldn't want that on my conscious in exchange for a little revenge.

VOTE at @ 1:00 Eastern

With three hours of debate beginning just before 9:30 a.m., lawmakers expect a vote to be wrapped up before 1 p.m. Eastern time. Leaders of both parties are supporting the measure, but neither side has given a public estimate of how much support they have.

As hard as it is to imagine, I think this bailout bill is necessary to keep the economy from total meltdown. Too many credible people, like Warren Buffett and Paul Krugman, are saying that it has to be done.

Although McCain and Obama are both on board, if a large number of House Republicans are big and vocal defectors, and the right-wing noise machine makes a party issue out of this, I'm wondering if this will prompt voters to give Dems the boot in November -- even though this mess is Bush's baby through and through.

No action and the country as we know it would not be the same for a decade.

It would mean lost jobs and bankrupt businesses and retirement funds for millions of people who had nothing to do with creating the problem.

I wouldn't want that on my conscious in exchange for a little revenge. -- Corky

This isn't about revenge. It's about a broken system that WILL NOT BE FIXED by this bailout. We write a check, and they go back to business as usual -- which means we'll be writing a lot more checks down the road.

If there really is an impending disaster, the Republicans need a deal as badly as the rest of us. This is the time for the Dems to play the same hardball -- refuse this deal.

So, we have a choice here. Suffer a little inconvenience, death and destruction or destroy american free enterprise, american rule of law, american justice and the whole american philosophy in favor of socialism.

Let it crumble I say.

A new life awaits all those that makes it through the ensuing depression.

The new america might stop rationalizing classism and illegal activities.

VOTE "CHALLENGER."

Anybody now in office should lose their jobs in November.

They are trying to rig it so that only the people who are not up for re-election or those in safe races vote for this bill.

So much for voting "Right". Now it is vote "Safe".

KICK ALL THE BASTARDS OUT....Show them there is no such thing as a 'Bad Safe Vote".

We want get any better representives, they are all polititions after all. But we will get a little pay back. And, maybe, make them a little nervious.

-It's about a broken system that WILL NOT BE FIXED by this bailout

That's true. Expecting this one Bill to "fix the system" is unrealistic. Which is why Obama said we would have to do a lot more work in other Bills to fix the system.

Which is why he still needs your vote.

Horse Shit.

Business goes under. Bail out the rich.

Lose you house? FUCK YOU!!!

As hard as it is to imagine, I think this bailout bill is necessary to keep the economy from total meltdown. Too many credible people, like Warren Buffett and Paul Krugman, are saying that it has to be done.

These are also people who have a tremendous amount of money invested in the stock market. What else are they going to say? Why in the world would Buffett put 5 Billion into Goldman and say anything other than its a great idea?

When the cost of goods in this country skyrockets due to inflation, it won't affect "the credible people", but damage to the stock market certainly will.

Although McCain and Obama are both on board, if a large number of House Republicans are big and vocal defectors, and the right-wing noise machine makes a party issue out of this, I'm wondering if this will prompt voters to give Dems the boot in November -- even though this mess is Bush's baby through and through.

Not once ounce of culpability for the Democrats? Are you serious?

-and the right-wing noise machine makes a party issue out of this, I'm wondering if this will prompt voters to give Dems the boot in November -- even though this mess is Bush's baby through and through.

Which is why the House Rethugs are holding out.

Dems are the ones putting "Country First". We can only hope that that will be clear to the voters by November.

Pheonix, if Dems win a super majority in the Senate and win the WH you will not see BAU. They won't say it now, but Dems will repeal the bankruptcy law that was passed in favor of a bankruptcy law that favors the debtor. Moreover, you will see tax increases on hedge funds and Wall Street in general. We bailed them out and it will be time to pay the piper.

I personally think that these investors are a drag on our economy and we need to get back to a production based society. I think Dems will pass legislation which will promote a green economy and the creation of green jobs which will get us away from having to rely on these Wall Street scumbags. The notion that we are a service economy is BS. We need to regulate Wall Street and make it more transparent, and I think Dems are better suited to pull it off.

Very interesting article about how banks and mortgage companies were threatened by politicians and communitiy activists if they did not make loans to minorities and the poor even if their credit was bad.

Politicians and the left wanted to stop 'red-lining" and put a lot of pressure on these financial institutions to give people who normally wouldn't qualify for loans -- or else their banks would suffer. Sure corporate greed and fraud had a lot to do with it but left wing pressure to make these bad loans also came into play.

Looks like both sides of the aisle made this mess we're in.

Puts a new light on part of the reason we are in this financial boondoggle.

Which is why Obama said we would have to do a lot more work in other Bills to fix the system.

Which is why he still needs your vote. -- Corky

Again, if there really is an impending disaster, the Republicans need a deal as badly as the rest of us.

If Obama can't stand up for us NOW, he's not going to stand up for us as president.

"If Obama can't stand up for us NOW"

what does that mean???
what do you ideally want obama to do?
coup the govt?

-the Republicans need a deal as badly as the rest of us

The House Rethugs would let the country go down the tubes rather than sacrifice their own jobs and vote for a "fix the system" Bill, if one could even be had.

We are talking about real world action that has to be immediate, not pipe dreams.

"If Obama can't stand up for us NOW"

what does that mean???
what do you ideally want obama to do? -- Kliff

Play the same hardball the Republicans are. Walk away from an unacceptable deal.

Right now the Dems are rolling over, and saying "Trust us. We'll fix this if you give us the presidency and both houses of congress in November."

Why should anyone believe this?

is the Bailout the October surprise?

Everyone, including Bush and the Republicans, have tried to convince the American public that we need to do this to survive. It doesn't make sense to me. There are "haves" that can buy out the "have nots" out there who were irresponsible enough to loan money to risky clients. Why shouldn't they go down?

And the mortgage holders that can't pay a house payment should lose their homes. They can go back to what they had before they went after the "pipe dream". Their chickens, too have come home to roost. As they should.

These are also people who have a tremendous amount of money invested in the stock market. What else are they going to say?

Buffett has never struck me as a person who would say falsehoods to pad his wallet. He's also no friend of idiots who make dumb decisions on Wall Street, except to take advantage of them.

I think he said the bailout's necessary because he believes it.

Not once ounce of culpability for the Democrats? Are you serious?

How much do you think the Dems could have done about this in their two years controlling Congress? They don't control the executive branch's appointment of regulators who look the other way and take care of their buddies.

There is plenty of blame on both sides of the aisle. I'm getting a little sick of Barney Frank putting all the responsibility on the other side of the aisle. He didn't think Congress needed to put better oversight over FMae and FMac when bills were submitted to do just that. He threw out the guilt trip that "poor people need a break" the same way he is doing right now.

Buffett has never struck me as a person who would say falsehoods to pad his wallet. He's also no friend of idiots who make dumb decisions on Wall Street, except to take advantage of them.

I think he said the bailout's necessary because he believes it. -- RCade

I agree, but there are any number of possible bailout plans, and this one is crap.

I have not seen him endorse this particular bailout plan.

I have further news for Barney Frank. If we hadn't saddled those "poor folks" with mortgages they ultimately couldn't afford, they would have been a lot better off in the long run.

How much do you think the Dems could have done about this in their two years controlling Congress? They don't control the executive branch's appointment of regulators who look the other way and take care of their buddies.

The seeds of this problem were planted long before the last two years.

I love listening to representatives talk about affordable housing in one sentence and artificially propping up housing values in another.

"mortgages they ultimately couldn't afford"

Weren't there TWO sets of signatures on those loans? And didn't at least ONE of them go to business school, and learned the difference between good lending risk and bad lending risk?

And why is it, in that equation, we say to the borrower 'tough shit' and the lender 'poor baby'...?

"The seeds of this problem were planted long before the last two years."

And one party has controlled the reigns of power for most of the last decade.

All of the financial issues that we seem to be discussing are just symptoms of a larger problem: lack of well paying jobs.

The policies of globalization, free trade, tolerance of illegal immigration, outsourcing, offshoring, etc. have not only led to fewer jobs but fewer well paying jobs. Until these policies are finally killed off once and for all, the economy will not recover.

Consumer spending is approximately 70% of the GDP. If consumers don't have the jobs to support their consumption, the GDP is going to tank. The policies of the last several administrations have cooked the golden goose.

#46 gets a +1 tally.

How much do you think the Dems could have done about this in their two years controlling Congress? --RCade

Ask Newt Gingrich. He made life miserable for Clinton.

By late 2002 I was sick to death of hearing Dem leaders explain that they were doing nothing because they didn't have a majority. You still FIGHT and make sure your opponent gets bloody as hell.

These Dems don't do that. They look at the numbers (minority, or now veto-able majority), shrug their shoulders, and then go out for tea.

You know how much I hate this language, but Chris is right -- these Dems are a bunch of pussies. Pretty sad day when the women are calling them that.

This detail could allow JPMorgan Chase & Co. to sell toxic mortgages and other assets it gained control of last week when it purchased Washington Mutual Inc. for a higher price than the failed thrift paid for them.

hahahahahahahahahaha

those toxic assets were certainly valuable to JPMorgan chase.

think about it.

JPM sees the writing on the wall, buys these assets and a week later is selling them for a profit.

FUCK REPUBLICANS AND FUCK DEMOCRATS

JPM sees the writing on the wall, buys these assets and a week later is selling them for a profit.

JPM sees the writing on the wall, buys these assets and a week later is selling them for a profit.

JPM sees the writing on the wall, buys these assets and a week later is selling them for a profit.

Watch the House vote live

"The policies of the last several administrations have cooked the golden goose."

Clinton took deficits and delivered true surplus budgets to his successor. Dubya did the exact opposite. Conflating Clinton's economic policies, which ended with the Dow rising 225%, and Bush's economic policies, which have seen the Dow rise about 6%, is a fool's errand. Seven and a half years are more than enough for a business cycle, and credit or blame.

You know where that very important $700-billion figure came from?

Here's a quote from that Forbes story:

"It's not based on any particular data point," a Treasury spokeswoman told Forbes.com Tuesday. "We just wanted to choose a really large number."

They made it up to be sufficiently ginormous to frighten everyone into rapid action.

And it worked.

#46 gets a +1 tally.

#69 | Posted by LetUsReason

Bears repeating:

So, we have a choice here. Suffer a little inconvenience, death and destruction or destroy american free enterprise, american rule of law, american justice and the whole american philosophy in favor of socialism.

Let it crumble I say.

A new life awaits all those that makes it through the ensuing depression.

The new america might stop rationalizing classism and illegal activities.

#46 | Posted by Lipzoidial

"They look at the numbers (minority, or now veto-able majority), shrug their shoulders, and then go out for tea. "

Don't leave out the fact the Rs have refused cloture at more than double the all-time record pace. Give me 41 Senators and a President with a veto pen, and watch what doesn't happen. Pass legislation? Hell, you won't even close a debate.

Danforth, Clinton enjoyed the stock market goodies of the dotcom boon of the nineties that ultimately deflated.

"dotcom boon(sic) of the nineties that ultimately deflated"

Bought DELL 1991 sold 2000

"Clinton enjoyed the stock market goodies of the dotcom boon of the nineties that ultimately deflated."

Nice try, but wrong.

Even if you pin the post 9/11 lows on Clinton (not really fair, but...) the DJIA rise under Clinton is still 150%.

"Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion -- when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing -- when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors -- when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you -- when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice -- you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand -- circa 1959

"We just wanted to choose a really large number."

Try Avogadro's then.

6.02x10^23

What the hell?

Weren't there TWO sets of signatures on those loans? And didn't at least ONE of them go to business school, and learned the difference between good lending risk and bad lending risk?

And why is it, in that equation, we say to the borrower 'tough shit' and the lender 'poor baby'...?

Danforth

I think the lender deserves to fail, too. If I, as an individual, loan money to someone to buy a car and they don't pay for it, its my fault too. I repossess the car and try to find a buyer.

Obama claims stake in new Wall St dealAgence

DETROIT, Michigan (AFP) Democrat Barack Obama complained Sunday it was an "outrage" that taxpayers had to bail out Wall Street but said a newly minted deal in Congress took stock of his demands and was essential to rescue the economy.

In prepared remarks for a rally here in the nation's automaking capital, the White House contender said the deal struck in marathon talks in Washington was no longer a "blank check" for the government.

Senator Obama mocked the activist role claimed by John McCain, his Republican opponent in the November 4 election, towards brokering the agreement in Congress on the government's 700-billion-dollar bailout request.

"You see, I think Senator McCain just doesn't get it -- he doesn't get that this crisis on Wall Street hit Main Street a long time ago," he said, noting McCain's initial remark that the economy was fundamentally "strong."

"That's why he's been shifting positions these last two weeks, looking for a photo-op, and trying to figure out what to say and what to do," Obama said at the Detroit rally, joined by his running mate Joseph Biden and their wives.

In the early hours, leaders in Congress said they had struck a tentative accord on a bailout package designed to shore up Wall Street after a raft of failures that officials said threatened a system-wide financial meltdown.

The agreement, which has to be adopted by the full Congress, would give taxpayers a stake in an eventual return to banking profits, empower lawmakers with strong oversight, and offer new relief for struggling homeowners.

Obama noted that those were among his core demands, and blamed the crisis on "the speculators on Wall Street who gamed the system and the regulators in Washington who looked the other way."

"It is an outrage -- an outrage -- that we are now being forced to clean up their mess," he said.

"But we have no choice. We must act now. Because now that we're in this situation, your jobs, your life savings, and the stability of our entire economy are at risk."

gasoline is down to $3.39 here...'zup widdat?

i'm sensing some manipulation of our senses.

"I think the lender deserves to fail, too. "

I also believe, if the government is about to sell mortgages for 30 cents on the dollar, they should offer mine to me at 40. Or 60...whatever.

"i'm sensing some manipulation of our senses."

Posted by nanc

How can you be sure?

"But we have no choice."

We're going to hear alot of that from President Obama as he goes along with the GOP day after day, month after bloody month. And not just on the economy.

"But we have no choice. We must act now. Because now that we're in this situation, your jobs, your life savings, and the stability of our entire economy are at risk."

They are trying to scare us, folks! The banks have been making money off of us for years. They took a risk they shouldn't have and its time they have the same thing happen to them that would happen to us if we default a loan. Lose our collatoral.

I would sincerely like to see every voter refuse to vote for the members of Congress and candidates running for president if they vote for this bail out. I do not believe the hype coming from either side of the aisle.

Kwame's mommy is voting no!

Thank god she has the intestinal fortitude to support her constituency. I wish I could say the same for my Rep.

Rep. Lee from Texas just made several good points. While it looks like there's oversight in this bill, there are actually NO enforcement mechanisms. "Oversight" essentially means Paulson has to give a report to a bipartisan panel, not that the bipartisan panel can overturn his decisions.

Rep. Lee from Texas

....is voting FOR the Bill, knowing they can come back to help homeowners.

I also believe, if the government is about to sell mortgages for 30 cents on the dollar, they should offer mine to me at 40. Or 60...whatever.

What is going to be worse? The Note holders inflating the worth of their Securities when the Government buys them and bails them out? Or the discounted price the buyers will hold firm to until the Government sells the Mortgage Pools?

We're going to hear alot of that from President Obama as he goes along with the GOP day after day, month after bloody month. And not just on the economy.

The same President who claimed this bailout was above his paygrade? Who had to be invited to the meeting in Washington? The leader of the Democratic Party didn't think he needed to attend? That was a real Presidential moment.

What about the people over the last 50 years or more who have done without the luxuries in life and worked extra jobs so they could keep a home? It's like a slap in the face!

Rep. Lee from Texas just made several good points. While it looks like there's oversight in this bill, there are actually NO enforcement mechanisms. "Oversight" essentially means Paulson has to give a report to a bipartisan panel, not that the bipartisan panel can overturn his decisions.

Another Democrat with principles. God bless her.

The same President who claimed this bailout was above his paygrade? Who had to be invited to the meeting in Washington? The leader of the Democratic Party didn't think he needed to attend? That was a real Presidential moment.

Yes, but at least he told folks to call him if they needed him!

"I would sincerely like to see every voter refuse to vote for the members of Congress and candidates running for president if they vote for this bail out. I do not believe the hype coming from either side of the aisle."

Can you honestly claim to understand the situation clearly enough to be sure that this bailout isn't absolutely necessary??? I know I wouldn't claim to know if it is or if it isn't necessary, I don't have enough information or knowledge about the financial industry.
I think though that on an issue which is so unpopular, in an election year, for Congress to be supporting this bailout it indicates to me that those Congressmen are legitimately more frightened of the potential disaster from not bailing out the banks than they are of losing reelection. To me, that says much, I can't remember the last time I saw so many politicians choosing to ignore their constituents because they honestly believe they are doing the right thing for the country.

Rep. Lee from Texas

....is voting FOR the Bill, knowing they can come back to help homeowners. -- Corky

After explicitly opposing it on the floor?

So much for "Democrat with principles."

She explicitly bitched about the lack of enforcement, not that she was willing to cut off America's nose to spite it's face.

"What is going to be worse? The Note holders inflating the worth of their Securities when the Government buys them and bails them out? Or the discounted price the buyers will hold firm to until the Government sells the Mortgage Pools?"

My point is when the government finally settles on X percentage (cents on the dollar) as the sale price for these mortgages, the taxpayers should be allowed to buy them for a little more. That way the gov't loses less, and I get a little for having to pay for problems I neither created nor participated in.

DANFORTH

DANFORTH

Clinton took deficits and delivered true surplus budgets to his successor

It is my belief that the lack of well paying jobs is the underlying cause of our present day problems. If people had well paying jobs, they wouldn't be defaulting on their mortgages and the problems we have today would not exist.

With NAFTA, Clinton did his share to facilitate free trade policies which have cost us jobs. NAFTA was the blue print that led to the creation of other free trade agreements.

Those 12 - 20 million illegal immigrants that are in the country today did not all come on GWB's watch. Many of them came on Clinton's watch. Maybe I am wrong but I don't remember him taking any steps to deal with illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants have cost us jobs and have driven down the wages of many of the jobs that Americans with mortgages hold.

My post keeps dropping off!!!

DANFORTH

I put your name in bold 'cause I didn't want you to miss my question. lol

You just wrote --

I also believe, if the government is about to sell mortgages for 30 cents on the dollar, they should offer mine to me at 40. Or 60...whatever.

That's the same question I had put out there on a couple of threads a few days ago too. Our moneyguy on on here -- RightisRight-- became interested in knowing too when he saw my question and was going to check into it.

If you and I both have mortgages but they weren't the sleezy subprimes but regular fixed rate mortgages do you think we could make an offer to buy back our OWN loans from the Treasury? I know it sounds nuts but the Treasury must be going to want to get some of these loans they now own in bulk off their hands. Sure would like to just be able to make them an offer for my own loan at 1/2 of the value.

Dreaming, huh?

I wonder where one could go to even find out. Why should everyone else -- the crooks on Wall Street, the borrowers who made these subprime loans when they didn't have the money and everyone else get bailed out but we honest people who made valid loans get nothing!

Can you honestly claim to understand the situation clearly enough to be sure that this bailout isn't absolutely necessary??? --Danni

No, I'm not at all sure. But three Nobel Laureates in Economics have opposed it, so there's certainly room for doubt.

I think though that on an issue which is so unpopular, in an election year, for Congress to be supporting this bailout it indicates to me that those Congressmen are legitimately more frightened of the potential disaster from not bailing out the banks than they are of losing reelection. -- Danni

Yes, but as Rep. Kaptur is saying right now, "America needs the right deal, not a bad deal."

Oops -- I misquoted. Kaptur just reiterated "America needs the right deal, not a fast deal."

It is my belief that the lack of well paying jobs is the underlying cause of our present day problems. If people had well paying jobs, they wouldn't be defaulting on their mortgages and the problems we have today would not exist.

You can thank the greedy Republicans who worship at the altar of free trade and globalism for sending 4 million of our jobs overseas and bringing in millions of illegal aliens to work here in our own country for cheap labor which helped drive down wages and/or keep wages stagnant. Also the destruction of our unions didn't help either.

Free trade -- Bush style -- has to be gotten rid of.

"Yes, but as Rep. Kaptur is saying right now, "America needs the right deal, not a bad deal."

Can't disagree with that but I believe there is also an element of urgency which some say is not important while others say it is of the utmost importance. I think it is only prudent to act as if the urgency is real because if it is and we don't deal with it that way, the bailout may be too little, too late.

"...do you think we could make an offer to buy back our OWN loans from the Treasury? I know it sounds nuts but the Treasury must be going to want to get some of these loans they now own in bulk off their hands."

Unfortunately, (fortunately?) our loans are the "good" ones, so we'll merely see our fees go up. And our taxes.

"If you and I both have mortgages but they weren't the sleezy subprimes but regular fixed rate mortgages do you think we could make an offer to buy back our OWN loans from the Treasury?"

I don't think the Treasury will have those mortgages. Those will be either in FAnnie or Freddie and will be profitable to whichever agency has them so it is unlikely that they would sell them for less.

Danni

Good point but a lot of good mortgages were put together in with the bad subprime ones and bundled together into "mortgage securities" if I understand it correctly. Many banks who are buying other banks actually don't even know just how much 'bad paper' they actually have on there hands now. But you're probably right. The honest folks never catch a break.

Anyone else find this suspicious??????

Many politicians took heavy losses in their own portfolios when AIG, Fannie, Freddie, and the other financial stocks all plummeted. But not John McCain!

John McCain, the Republican presidential nominee, avoided potential losses. Because of the Arizona senator's run for the White House, his wife, Cindy, last year liquidated a blind trust that had contained stock in AIG, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Lehman. The amounts of stock she had owned weren't disclosed.

A "blind trust" does NOT need to be liquidated to run for office. John Kerry's wife did not liquidate her blind trust when he ran for President in 2004. The entire purpose of having a blind trust is so that you don't know which stocks you hold and can't be accused of a conflict of interest.

Could the REAL reason McCain's wife liquidated her blind trust with those holdings be because John "I'm a deregulator guy" McCain knew these institutions were all to fail months ago? Hmmm?

I think it is only prudent to act as if the urgency is real because if it is and we don't deal with it that way, the bailout may be too little, too late. -- Danni

Look, Danni, I've always gotten the impression that you're a good parent. I'm sure you wouldn't have a kid like this, but think about this hypothetical.

You've got a kid with a history of lying and stealing, and the kid comes up to you and says "Mom, I'm in big trouble. I've gotten in trouble with loan sharks, and they've threatened to kill me if you don't give me $700B tomorrow."

As much as you want to save your kid, the fact is (A) you can't trust him, and (B) giving him the money does nothing to get rid of the loan shark. Same extortionist can come back a month later and make the same threat.

That's what this bill is. It includes no regulatory reform -- it just gives the people who created this mess money so they can continue business as usual. Everything that looks like an improvement over Paulson's original request is a fig leaf -- "oversight" without enforcement and "taxpayer protection" that consists of a commitment to "write a proposal" in the event that taxpayers' money has not been recouped after 5 years. CEO salaries are not actually limited -- they just can't be included as corporate tax writeoffs anymore.

They keep saying "Well, we won't actually be spending all the money right now. There will have to be another vote next year."

Right -- in the very beginning of the election cycle. If the Dems don't have the balls to oppose this bill now, they're not gonna oppose spending your money in another few months.

This will cost taxpayers AT LEAST $700B, and it does nothing to fix the problems. No Way.

I really have a problem trusting the Dems on this bail out plan. In 2004, they were adament that FMae and FMac were not in trouble.

Maxine Waters: Through nearly a dozen hearings, we were frankly trying to fix something that wasn't broke. Mr. Chairman, we do not have a crisis at Freddie Mac, and particularly at Fannie Mae, under the outstanding leadership of Franklin Raines.

Gregory Meeks: I'm just pissed off at OFHEO [the regulators trying to warn Congress of insolvency at the GSEs], because if it wasn't for you, I don't think we'd be here in the first place. There's been nothing that indicated that's wrong with Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac has come up on its own The question that then comes up is the competence that your agency has with reference to deciding and regulating these GSEs.

Lacy Clay: This hearing is about the political lynching of Franklin Raines.

Barney Frank: I don't see anything in this report that raises safety and soundness problems.

Obama, McCain who's going to "fix" it? Neither, it can't be fixed the system itself if broken. End the Fed, that will fix it.

* McBama favors the Billionaire Bailout.

* McBama won't say what programs have to be cut to pay for the Billionaire Bailout.

* McBama thinks "we should never hesitate to use military force."

* McBama wants to escalate the other unwinnable "land war in Asia" (Afghanistan).

* McBama is not sure about whether to start a third unwinnable land war in Asia, against nuclear power Pakistan.

* McBama would go to war against Iran for the sake of Israel if necessary. He is not sure if he wants to talk with the Iranians before bombing them.

* McBama thinks that Russia is the villain in Georgia.

I'm not voting for McBama, I wont be a part of this.

They're all criminals. There is no difference between the parties. The Wall Street Welfare payment is a corrupt bargain.

Throw the bums out!

. Those will be either in FAnnie or Freddie and will be profitable to whichever agency has them so it is unlikely that they would sell them for less.

Which is exactly what these struggling entities should do. Sell their assets. Why should they keep these performing loans and make a profit? While dumping these non-performing loans for pennies on the dollars?

Lehman just sold billions of their assets. Morgan Stanley just cut a deal to Mistsubishi. These Companies deserve what they get. Their assets should be siezed and sold. AIG could be absorbed by the various MI Companies instead of given a new lease on life.

"They're all criminals. There is no difference between the parties."

Perfect recitation of Republican talking point.

Corky, are you listening to your man Kucinich?

He's saying what you know is true -- any money authorized should be spent keeping people in their homes and DIRECTLY supporting Main Street.

"What's good for Wall Street is not good for Main Street. Not today."

...and the bigger the problem gets, the bigger the fee they charge to work on it. The price would have been $300 billion to fix Fannie/Freddie in 2003... but by letting it fester, they got $300 billion a few weeks ago AND another $700 billion now! Woo-Hoo!

Well, my guy Dennis the K is playing politics with this, knowing it will pass without his vote.

His problem with the Bill not giving the real power to the Sec to "own" the mortgage is a real one, but I don't think Dennis would vote No if his were the deciding vote.

"How can you be sure?

#88 | Posted by Zatoichi at 2008-09-29 11:55 AM | Reply | Flag: "

for the simple FACT! this stinks to high heaven.

FACT!

I wish I had bought a house a few years ago at an inflated price. If I had known the govt would come and "renegotiate" my loan for whatever value it would be in the future, I would have bought that $400,000 house with a loan I was offered. No matter the house was worth 200,000, the govt will redo my loan to the lower amount. This deal stinks all around...

They're all criminals. There is no difference between the parties."

Perfect recitation of Republican talking point.

#121 | Posted by danni at 2008-09-29 12:46 PM

Perfect example of being blind with eyes that can see.

Allow me to try this link again.

Polls report that 7%, 12%, and 9% of the people support the bailout, so a tiny minority.. however these politicians appear to be *in* that tiny minority.

Rep. Hoyer (D)

Rep. David Dreier (R)

Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D)

Sen. Chuck Schumer (D)

Rep. Barney Frank (D)

Sen. Judd Gregg (R)

Harry Reid (D)

John Boehner, (R)

Rep. Ellen Tauscher (D)

Sen. Sherrod Brown, (D)

Rep. Adam Smith (D)

Sen. Max Baucus (D)

Bob Corker (R)

Sen. Bob Casey (D)

Rep. Neil Abercrombie (D)

Sen. Norm Coleman (R MN)

Sen. Chris Dodd (D CT)

Sen. Johnny Isakson (R GA)

Sen. Saxby Chambliss: (R GA)

Rep. John Boehner (R OH-8)

Senator Ben Cardin (D-MD)

Senator Barbara Mikulski (D-MD)

Sen. Robert Casey, Jr. (D-PA)

Bob Inglis (R-SC)

Patrick Tiberi (R) Ohio

Joe Sestak (D)

Sen. Mike Crapo (R)

Rep. Eric Cantor (R)

Rep Gary Miller Calif (R)

John McCain (R)

Barack Obama (D)

George Bush (R)

Maybe it is politicians in Washington *are* the 7% - 9%.What do they care, its not their money.. might as well give it to their banker friends.

I listened to some brokers on the radio yesterday.

They love the bailout plan.

Here's the catch.

In their commercials, and you can google the phrase, they say "stock investments are subject to risk."

What the brokers want the gov't to do is bail them out of their own risky decisions.

Why bail them out? The ecomony will crash? Someone will buy them out with pennies instead of dollars.

And to think, they thought about eliminating the penny.

Also if you know anyone who has WaMu stock..

You might have heard that JP Morgan "bought" WaMu.. thats not true. The government seized WaMu and its assesses of 300+ Billion stiffing the investors.. and then they gave it to JP Morgan for a fraction of its worth, 1.9 Billion. The stockholders got totally screwed and they are filing a class action lawsuit against the Government.

If Frank and Boehner can agree on this Bill, it's the best Bill we are going to get.

The "other" Drudge has a headline up now that Congress is now "rushing" thru passing this bailout bill in order to get home in time for the Jewish holiday of Rosh Hashanah.

Nothing against anyone wanting to celebrate and honor their own religious holiday but do NOT race thru a $700 BILLION giveaway of my tax dollars so you can run home and celebrate some holiday. I don't care if it's a Jewish holiday or Christmas or Ramadan or any other damn holiday. Stay at work 24/7 on this trillion dollar giveaway until you get it done right and ALL the details have been worked out.

This is a disgrace they want to rush thru this bailout bill so they can get home for Rosh Hashanah. It just rubs more salt in the wound. Shows how little they think of the taxpayers and how Congress could care less they could care about spending a trillion dollars of our money.

Nothing against anyone wanting to celebrate and honor their own religious holiday but do NOT race thru a $700 BILLION giveaway of my tax dollars so you can run home and celebrate some holiday.

It's not so they can celebrate a holiday. It's so they can go to the Wall St.'ers they are bailing out and do a little fundraising.

This is going to be a GREAT week for incumbent fundraising.

If Frank and Boehner can agree on this Bill, it's the best Bill we are going to get. -- Corky

Frank represents Massachussetts' 4th district where 67.6% of the labor force are white collar workers. As Chair of the House Financial Services Committee, Frank is one of those deserving the blame for getting us into this mess.

He is representing the interest of the financial sector, not the best interest of the country.

Yes, Barney Frank is a terrible American only interested in Wall Street.

You could cut the hysteria around here with a knife.

Go back and listen to Barney Frank in the you-tube video, Corky. This was in 2004 when first hints of trouble came to light.

People will say Frank is for the taxpayers. His attack on regulation in 2004 says otherwise. Because the taxpayer is the loser in this situation.

Yes, Barney Frank is a terrible American only interested in Wall Street. -- Corky

I didn't say that. I like Barney Frank. I said he's representing his district, and that he's done a poor job of protecting the rest of us so far.

Are you suggesting that he's NOT representing his district, and that he's done a great job as House Financial Services Chair?

Does Pelosi realize how far her "This is a Republican Bill" line is going to fly with the Repubs opposing it and the Dems pushing it through?

A lot of Congress people are not representing the polls in their Districts with this vote. They are doing what they think best for the country to avoid a deeper financial crisis than is necessary; trying to keep people who were not involved in this in any way from suffering more than they al;ready will.

#133 They aren't rushing anything..

143 - 140

It may be that Repubs will not provide the 100 votes they needed for passage.

Then you all can celebrate the financial ruin of the nation.

A lot of Congress people are not representing the polls in their Districts with this vote. -- Corky

LOL. Ya think?

Anyone got any gold for sale?

It may be that Repubs will not provide the 100 votes they needed for passage. -- Corky

Yep. Right now 58 yes, 25 undecided.

The Market's not happy. Down 585. Holy shit.

How sad.

Congress votes their jobs instead of their country.

Now they will have to go back to this after a week or so of financial chaos, when their districts change their minds.

Down 700.

Wait 'till they get the news of this vote. It will be the financial shot heard round the world.

It failed. Dems: 140-95 in favor, Repubs, 65-133. Total: 205 for, 228 against.

It's all over but the crying now.

YES!

Didn't pass the house. Burn,baby, burn.

The Extortionists/Terrorists will not be happy. They will do what they can to freeze the credit markets and destroy the economy until they get their ransom money.

YES!

Yes to job losses, pension losses, runs on banks, business closings, absolutely no credit at all.... Congrats!

@#143

God shut up, to think these boobs in Washington even *could* save us, they are like cavemen trying to understand economics.

Look at it this way.. Why not instead of giving a bunch of money to banks and to wall street, the government gave the people the money? That would be something overall like $50,000 apiece ($700b x 3 + + +) With 50g you think people would easily be able to spend and pay off their bills. In fact.. if we are going to go that far.. why not give people 100g, or 200g? That is better than giving it to wall street right? Why not do that?

Because it doesn't work, when you just print money and give it to people the value of the money overall drops and prices rise to adjust.

Lets pretend they double the money in supply.. what happens? Money is worth 1/2 as much and prices double.. virtually no effect. If they gave us all the money we wanted than that money would be worthless.

In this case, giving money away can't work.. but there is even more to this.

* There is a certain % of value lost to the dollar that will drive prices up, are you paying enough for gas and food yet? well it's going to get worse.

* The money itself comes on loan from the Federal Reserve. Yes *they* charge interest on the money *you* back up with taxes. We pay back the $700 Billion + Interest.

* And there is a transfer of wealth to the banks and wall street who spend it first from the people who get it last.

Yes to job losses, pension losses, runs on banks, business closings, absolutely no credit at all.... Congrats!

Tears of a clown.

Well, we already know from your name what you have on your face.

I ask again:

What if you are president and the phone rings at 3AM and they tell you AlQaeda will nuke NYC unless we give them $700B? Do you give them the money?

FF Cork!

Do you give them the money?

NEVER!

Well, we already know from your name what you have on your face.

You're 0 for 2 this year. That's gotta be a real kick in the junk.

Hey for once in your life you don't have to say "There's nothing we can do". You lost your favorite crutch, but now you might see a real solution!

Lets pretend they double the money in supply.. what happens? Money is worth 1/2 as much and prices double.. virtually no effect. If they gave us all the money we wanted than that money would be worthless.

Guess you don't know much about fiat money.

WE WANT THE RSC PLAN! wE WANT WALL STREET TO CLEAN UP ITS ONW MESS!!!

POSTED BY JAYDEE AT 2008-09-29 01:57 PM | REPLY | FLAG

Not 50,000 - 5,000 using your numbers.

This was a good leverage, targeted at specific CDO/CDS crud.

Guess we'll find out what happens next.

Looks like the House fell 11 votes short of passage. Dow falls again.

A good fire is necessary for the forest to regrow.

It clears out the dead wood.

Better than your 0 for all time. Try to keep that stuff out of your mouth, would ya? That's disgusting!

What you are seeing is wealth being lost at the tune of millions per second. Of course, that wouldn't hurt those like you who have nothing anyway, right?

Yes, it failed, at least the republicans know what they are doing here.

"Yes to job losses, pension losses, runs on banks, business closings, absolutely no credit at all.... Congrats!"

Apparently, Corky, none of these clowns or their children or grandchildren have 401k plans, own stock, have a job, etc.

Yes to job losses, pension losses, runs on banks, business closings, absolutely no credit at all.... Congrats!

#156 | Posted by Corky

Corky, there was nothing in that bill to keep us from being in the same position a few months down the road.

Yes, this is the shot heard round the world. But Congress damn well better hear it as a shot by American taxpayers demanding no more business as usual -- we want a better bill.

What you are seeing is wealth being lost at the tune of millions per second.

Ummmm sorry, but don't thinks so.

One gains and another loses, it is just a transfer but the issue is who was that benefactor.

YEEEEHHHHAAAAA

my 401K is down another 5%

can we say FUCK REPUBLICANS yet?

Well, the yahoos are in charge of the House now, the grown-ups did the best they could.

my 401K is down another 5%

How long you got until retirement?

just added 5 years.

im early 40's now.

You got plenty of time for it to recover.

-we want a better bill.

The definition of a "better Bill" being the polar opposite for the Dem and Repub Nay votes, you should consider to go stand on a street corner and solicit business until that gridlock ceases.

It may be the only way to make money now.

I was trying to do some research yesterday to see if it would be cheaper if the Treasury just paid off everyone's mortgage( not including all the interest, just the balance due on the home)and sent us the titles free & clear.

It was hard to find definitive info but it seems the total equity debt is less than $600 Billion.

I better go stock up on pencils to sell on the street corner.

Oh wait, I still have my business.

I don't give a shit about your 401K, you took the risk and it is not paying off. There is no reason why I should have to save your sorry ass.

Get a clue.

726

things are only going to get worse, not better.

we are fucked

ok money, although I suspect i represent a vast majority of americans-those whose retirement is tied to the stock market.

TH,

I know. I have been saying that for years. No one listened.

Stagnant wage growth, negative savings rates, home equity loans to pay off credit cards, etc.

This nation needs an enema.

THANK YOU SIR!! MAY I HAVE ANOTHER?!?

Thank you Congress.

Just say NO.

Maybe Congress does have a clue!

If we are going to throw a Trillion dollars at our economy then I need a bailout too.

I am waiting for the dull thud of brokers leaping to their deaths.

Mob rule should not rule the day.

It is called an investment with risk and those who took that chance well should take responsibility for it.

I see no reason why I should have to pay for the chance YOU took because everyone else was doing it.

Thank providence it failed. Now, maybe we can write one that makes sense.

I am not opposed to letting troubled companies borrow money from the gov. But I want to see some hard lines written about how it will be repaid and who will go to jail when it's not.

And who goes to jail for fraud related to the problems we have now.

This whole situation has been gamed by Bushco for the benefit of their freinds.

They have been working on this bailout since February but just like Ken Lay kept saying the economy was fine.

McClueless in three days time went from saying everything was fine to this being the worst finance crisis ever.

This whole bailout has been sold to the American public in the hyteria ladened style reminiscient of the Iraq invasion.

It just doesn't add up.

And the CEO's who oversaw it happen should lose EVERYTHING!! All property, cash, possesions, liquidated into the US Treasury, earmarked as taxpayer bailout money.

The nation needs to get rid of the Federal reserve.

In the end when all the money is tracked and flowed the federal reserve will be the big winners, stealing all those 401K's but let's stick our heads in the sand over this issue.

I am not opposed to letting troubled companies borrow money from the gov. But I want to see some hard lines written about how it will be repaid and who will go to jail when it's not.

And who goes to jail for fraud related to the problems we have now.

#193 | Posted by Lipzoidial at 2008-09-29 02:20 PM |

AMEN!

The nation needs to get rid of the Federal reserve.

In the end when all the money is tracked and flowed the federal reserve will be the big winners, stealing all those 401K's but let's stick our heads in the sand over this issue.

Amen.

Wow.

Does this mean economic Armageddon?

Should I start stocking up on food and water and buy a gun and learn how to shoot it?

The ONLY reason the republifuckers aren't backing the bailout plan is because the vaginacrats didn't cut them in on the deal.

The ONLY reason.

I thought they said the Dow would go down 1/3 if this bill did not pass. It's down about 4% now, 470 points.

The Dow is not the issue now, the issue is the extortion by the credit markets.

It does add up, it's Bushco's and the Neocon's final FUCK YOU to the American people.

So Long Suckers!

Oil is donw $10.

I was trying to do some research yesterday to see if it would be cheaper if the Treasury just paid off everyone's mortgage( not including all the interest, just the balance due on the home)and sent us the titles free & clear.

It was hard to find definitive info but it seems the total equity debt is less than $600 Billion.

#182 | Posted by briwo at 2008-09-29 02:15 PM | Reply | Flag

Better well fucking not. I'd rather see the rich assholes get bailed out then people who were stupid get free houses. I own a trailer home. Yes, a trailer, that's all. Because that's all I could afford. The bank tried to get me with a subprime loan, but I asked the smart questions, saw that it could very well bankrupt me, and went with what I could afford.

Now you want to tell me that everyone who was stupider then me should get a free house as a reward for their stupidity?

Fuck that!

And who goes to jail for fraud related to the problems we have now.

#193 | Posted by Lipzoidial at 2008-09-29 02:20 PM

No one goes to jail...they will probably get the Presidential Medal of Freedom for the fine work they did.

Oil is donw $10.

#204 | Posted by member2586

I hope wiskey prices drops by 33% or more by 5pm.

Does this mean Palin will have to supspend campaigning, fly to Washington to solve the problem and won't be able to debate on Thursday night?

A trillion with little or no oversight...riiiiight.

Does this mean Palin will have to supspend campaigning, fly to Washington to solve the problem and won't be able to debate on Thursday night?

#208 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2008-09-29 02:33 PM |

Let's see: no, no, still yes.

Are you listening to Boehner? He's blaming the Republicans' refusal to support the bill on Pelosi's speech before the vote.

I think this is the "Pelosi is mean; we're taking our ball and going home" explanation.

Who cares about the Jewish Holidays?!?!

Why should the Jewish, or any Holiday, have anything to do with the timing of this? This is a SECULAR country, we have separation of Church/Synagogue/Temple and State.

Divide it (700b) up amongst the tax-paying people instead. Tax us on it, use oversight to force us to first pay off our mortgages (housing crisis solved), and then use the rest for savings and investment (bolsters Wall Street cunts once again).

How can we lose if we do this?

HORSEY'S ALTERNATE PLAN: Pay off the Chinese debt and tell those bastards to "have a nice day".

Get your checking and savings out of the banks now.

If they fail and the FDIC takes over it will still take weeks or months for them to settle your account.

Put your money in a local credit union's savings and checking account.

I pulled my checking accounts out of Washington Mutual on Friday. I don't care if JP Morgan took it over. I don't want my money anywhere near a bank until the dust has settled on this mess.

Should I start stocking up on food and water and buy a gun and learn how to shoot it?

Chris- it is a never too late and I would definitely get myself prepared for a "disaster".

Even if this doesn't turn out to be one (well, figure the odds of THAT) you will be well prepared for the next one.

Food and water and first aid for your family for 7 days (3 days is the recommended amount but I suggest more).

Amen.

#198 | Posted by IraqiBukkake

I amen that amen

money you misunderstand me. I am not advocating a solution, I honestly dont know what is the best course.

I am mourning the damage to my retirement savings, which likely represents alot of american's concerns right now.

We're all going to die.

Are you listening to Boehner? He's blaming the Republicans' refusal to support the bill on Pelosi's speech before the vote.

Hyuck. Sounds like he's got a big boehner for his fellows.

Chris, did they try and talk you out of it? I've been thinking of moving mine to a Credit Union.

1. I have my $$ in a Credit Union.

2. Quit inciting panic, it will make things worse.

Are you listening to Boehner? He's blaming the Republicans' refusal to support the bill on Pelosi's speech before the vote.

I think this is the "Pelosi is mean; we're taking our ball and going home" explanation.

This is the problem with a two party system. Voters have already been saying, "a plague on both their houses." Barr and Nader are garnerning votes right about now.

Do you get interest in a CU? How does it compare to banks?

Fucking babies. Just watched the press conference Republicans are cry babies. Boo fucking hoo their feelers got hurt. Assholes. They have sour graped for the past two years and played politics over the benefit of the nation. Their leadership sucks.

A small contingent of Conservative Republicans have saved everyone (except the superrich).

226 deserve another term. 207 should be thrown out at the first opportunity. Not that voters have an adequate memory to follow through.

But, I'm sure we haven't seen the last of the rich bastards behind this bailout. Legal bribery is going to balloon.

This is the problem with a two party system. Voters have already been saying, "a plague on both their houses." Barr and Nader are garnerning votes right about now.

...and your point is?

My credit union is as strong as it has ever been. They made no subprime loans and are 100% solvent.

I agree, take your money out of banks in question and find a member owned credit union.

In another 3-4 months Bush will ride off into the sunset laughing at us all as he leaves our nation mourning our military dead and wounded from his illegal war in Iraq and our financial institutions tattered and broken, massive unemployment by the millions and the highest trade deficit than all other Presidents combined.

Can ANYONE tell me why Bush and his corrupt band of Neocon thieves are not impeached?

Why is he being allowed to rape and pillage our nation with no criminal prosecution?

Truth,

I understand about your 401K, I am in the same boat but that's the way investments are suppose to be, risk.

If losing most of my 401K means getting rid of these financial greedy crooks and the federal reserve, it would be well worth the deal.

My kids might then have a future.

Credit Unions are just like banks, you have interest bearing accounts if you want, money markets, CDs, IRA CDs, whatever you want. They also have some fees like regular banks.

Chris, see my post #203

Credit Unions are where my money resides as well. They fucking rock, dude. No hassles, low interest loans, decent, local god-fearin' folk for tellers .... I don't see why people even bother with banks any more. Buncha cunts the lot of them. May they all crash and burn.

The Dow keeps bouncing around -500.

Quit inciting panic, it will make things worse.

Too late, the idiots in the house have doomed us. The good news is this pretty much hands the White House to Obama.

Hey why don't the send in the "decider uniter" in to referee? Perhaps "the haves and the have mores".... his base... wont let let him.

Fucking pussies.

All we need is some more great "leadership" from John McCain like he showed last week and everything will be fine.

Mccain couldn't get his party behind the bill, so much for the Lone Ranger Maverick to the rescue.

Why is he being allowed to rape and pillage our nation with no criminal prosecution?

#229 | Posted by CalifChris

Because Pelosi and Reid are just as corrupt plus they have no balls at all (especially harry).

The Dow keeps bouncing around -500.

That is today, Member. The Dow didn't fall overnight after 9/11 either. Unless someone acts now we will be witnessing a financial crisis that will shadow the Great Depression.

We need another depression, maybe the republican corporate greedy fucker can learn that service economy don't work so well when people don't have money.

A depression will get us back to BUILDING AND PRODUCING things again.

too bad we can't get economy back on track and than iron
out the details.

BRIWO

Just saw it.

Yes, you get interest and checking and savings.

I think you live in Oregon?

Here's a list of Oregon CUs linked below.

There is always one that allows the people in the community to join. The only difference is you are a "member" with a member number but you get checks, can deposit, have on line banking. My checking account has ATM's, free checking, and all the perks. It's fully federally insured up to $100 grand (although I don't have that kind of money!)

Here's a list of Oregon CUs. (Don't you live in Oregon?) If you live in Washington state just google "credit unions in washington" and get the list. I got into one which was opened for people who live in my town. They are opening new accounts by the ton for people who are bailing out of the banks.

"As votes mounted against the bill, the Dow plummeted more than 700 points...."

I took most my money out of the market a while ago. I only started the job I have now recently so my share of the bailout as a taxpayer is probably going to end up being more than what I'll lose in my 401(k) if it doesn't pass. I'm sure I'm not the only taxpayer whose share of the bailout will be more than what could be lost in the market. Actually, I think at least half of Americans fall into this category...

"A small contingent of Conservative Republicans have saved everyone (except the superrich).

226 deserve another term. 207 should be thrown out at the first opportunity. Not that voters have an adequate memory to follow through.

But, I'm sure we haven't seen the last of the rich bastards behind this bailout. Legal bribery is going to balloon."

#226 | Posted by nutcase

About 60% of Democrats voted for the measure, but less than a third of Republicans backed it.

Republicans are primarily the reason this bailout failed, with the majority of them taking it down (not including their leadership).

I wish I knew who to congratulate, but I don't even know what the right thing to do is in this situation.

A depression will get us back to BUILDING AND PRODUCING things again.

Back to reality. I keep thinking about that comment some Bushie made--We create the reality the rest of you just live in.

"Because Pelosi and Reid are just as corrupt plus they have no balls at all (especially harry).

#239 | Posted by Lipzoidial"

I wouldn't say they're corrupt, but they definitely have no cojones. They seem to be much more worried about doing what's in their own best interest (self-serving politics) rather than what's in the country's best interest. Infuriating.

I've been a pretty staunch supporter of Obama for the past 7 or 8 months, but it's shit like this that makes me begin to drift towards a third-party candidate.

I took most my money out of the market a while ago.

I did the same. Unfortunately, if you own a house you probably won't be able to see a gain on a sale for 20-30 years (taking inflation into effect).

could this crisis escalate quickly and the US
govt not be able to stop the fall?

Democrats voted with Bush, Republicans didn't.

LOL!

Dems should be infruiated with the over 90 House Dems that voted against this bill - Kucinich being one of them.

So, the Repubes couldn't deliver on 12 of the votes they promised to pass the Bill.

The Dems could put in a bankruptcy provision and pass it themselves, but then they aren't sharing the risk with Repubes.

The vote was likely split between those with safe seats and those without.

40% of DEMS VOTE NO? PELOSI SHOULD BE EXPELLED.

68% OF REPUBS VOTE NO? FUCK THEM TOO.

OBAMA LEADS THE REVOLT BY VOICING OPPOSITION TO BANKRUPTCY BAILOUT? IS HE NUTS??

WTF HAPPENED?

WE'RE FUCKED !

How much more fucked up can the Congress get before we simply toss them all, Den and Repub alike, out on their asses?

So what's next? A minor re-write, or starting from scratch?

Will dubya send enough GOppers to Gitmo to get this through, or will he just go to Crawford and pout?

Finally, and then I have to go, we are a much less safe country as a result of this.

We need another depression, maybe the republican corporate greedy fucker can learn that service economy don't work so well when people don't have money.

A depression will get us back to BUILDING AND PRODUCING things again.

#241 | Posted by moneywar

and what if that is not possible? what if it is 20 or 30 or more years of crushing poverty? what if it is food riots or fuel riots?

what if it results in anarchy followed by dictatorship?-

what if it results in militarization and nationalism and more wars?

cause it wont be pretty, it will be ugly.

people will fight and kill and war for the resources, that is immutable.

Let the market fall where it be, if the market keeps crashing, well, it really wasn't the great strong market the republicans kept saying it was.

BRIWO

Here's what I got with the checking account I just opened at my CU here in town.

If you keep a lesser amount you still get a good deal on your checking/savings. Just look around with the different CUs and what they offer just as you would a bank.

Checking Account Features at my credit union --

$6 monthly fee

WAIVED with $5,000 average daily balance in any share combination within the account, or
WAIVED for members at least 50 years of age who use the Electronic Direct Deposit Program to receive their net paycheck, retirement or Social Security checks.

No minimum opening deposit required.

Minimum Balance
NONE

Dividends
Paid monthly on average daily balance of $2,500 or more

ATM
FREE Transactions at [credit union] ATMs
FREE deposits at participating CO-OP Network ATMs
FREE withdrawals at CO-OP Network ATMs, including ATMs located at most 7-Eleven stores
FREE withdrawals at non CO-OP ATMs*
Free Services

FREE Point-of-sale purchases with cash-back option
FREE 24-hour Online Banking
FREE 24-hour Touch-Tone Banking
FREE Financial Services via the Call Center during Credit Union business hours.
FREE first box of checks
FREE Visa Travelers Cheques
5 FREE money orders or Credit Union checks per month, in any combination
2 FREE wire transfers per month
Unlimited check writing
Overdraft Protection
Visa Debit Card
Visa Platinum Credit Card with NO ANNUAL FEE**
More Benefits

Unlimited check writing
Overdraft Protection
Visa Debit Card
Visa Platinum Credit Card with NO ANNUAL FEE

"A depression will get us back to BUILDING AND PRODUCING things again."

Depressions are almost always followed by wars. The Great Depression of 1929 was followed by WWII which also was the excuse that Congress and the President needed to enact extremely high taxes on the wealthy and redistribute that money through extensive spending on war materials.
A depression will be a fucking disaster and everyone here may not even live through such a thing.

What's next?!

WE WANT THE RSC INSURANCE PLAN!!! LET THE FUCKERS ON WALL STREET PAY TO CLEAN UP THEIR OWN SHIT!!!

Not going to happen member.

could this crisis escalate quickly and the US
govt not be able to stop the fall?

Sure it could.

Then Bush could implement the "New World Order" -- the words coined by Daddy Bush.

A one world government.

Don't laugh, we may be seeing it unfold before our eyes.

Danni, Let's Bomb Iran then! WWIII!

Who says this is a failure.

Banks failed to steal the peoples money at the hands of politicians. Sounds like a win for the people to me.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Welcome to the start of "The Greater Depression" brought to you by the biggest bunch of losers that America has spawned.

I give you--The great American Politician leaving office at the next election. Make your vote count for something write in for president-M.Mouse/Minnie Mouse. They couldn't do much worse. However there are enough cartoon character around, so for the Senate/Congress down to municipal dog catcher, make your mark.

Just vote "Hell No"

Tax

They already had worked out who would vote for it and who wouldn't. There are Dem's who would have voted Yes if they knew the Repubes couldn't deliver their votes.

NAU I can't wait. I hope America looks like Juarez by 2 years.

Truth,

Not a chance of anything but a whole lot of poor, poverty strickened masses.

Congress will get a face lift, corporations will get a face lift, and we as a nation will begin to do the things we did best, build and produce things.

With David Suskind's 2002 interview with a White House aide, however, we discovered that in the Bush administration basing policy on a "discernible reality" was a thing of the past. "[W]e create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality . . . we'll act again, creating other new realities."

So, the Repubes couldn't deliver on 12 of the votes they promised to pass the Bill.

Yes, it's pathetic. 12 votes cut and run on the GOP side at the last minute, and Pelosi can't get 40% of her own to vote with her. This has exposed the total dysfunction of our Legislative branch for all to see. The House membership has nothing but disdain for the majority and minority leadership.

Are those rumors about Bush declaring martial law and canceling the election seem to make sense after all. How much worse can it get, honestly?

The list of all NO voters needs to be circulated so that they can each be disemboweled in the next election cycle in their district.

"The Dems could put in a bankruptcy provision and pass it themselves, but then they aren't sharing the risk with Repubes."

#252 | Posted by Corky

And that's what really matters in all of this. Sharing the (political)risk.

Thanks Chris, I've been looking at Boeing Employees Credit Union (BECU is open to all)and they look pretty good.

"And that's what really matters in all of this. Sharing the (political)risk"

No one knows whether the plan would have worked or made things worse.

""Let the market fall where it be, if the market keeps crashing, well, it really wasn't the great strong market the republicans kept saying it was.""

Just so we're clear here, MONEY, this also means that people who had no business buying homes when they couldn't afford them should be left out on the street to fend. Let Darwinsim happen at all levels social and economic and see where we end up, is that what you're saying? Either you're in all the way, or you are talking out your butt.

bullshit money, this is only the beginning.

we wont be able to borrow, means China and the far east wont be able to lend, meaning they will go into recession.

less money to aid third world countries.

the poverty will result in a backlash of nationalism and militarism.

that nationalism and militarism will need an outlet-war.

iran is likely the enemy although i could see us fighting with russia or china.

you read it here first.

"No one knows whether the plan would have worked or made things worse."

#273 | Posted by member2586

Sounds like justification enough to take our money and give it to corrupt bankers.

There are Dem's who would have voted Yes if they knew the Repubes couldn't deliver their votes.

Wasn't the vote open long enough for people to change their votes? Can you even change your vote?

SO, Rethugs are saying that they voted against this Bill because Nancy Pelosi blamed them for the [problem?

If that is there reason, they are even worse than I thought.

I've been in a credit union for over thirty years.

"corrupt bankers"

redundancy flag

Don't
Return
Incumbent
Politicians

DRIP on them!

Good!!!

Pelosi on TV now!

truth,

Nope, this is not 1920's and 30's where the war machine helped OUR economy.

The war machine will do nothing in putting people back to work, making and producing thing is the only way to get this nation back on its feet.

To bad the stupid educated elites couldn't be punished for their unrational idea that a service economy is the way to go.

Warren must be pissed.

In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

and I say you cant perceive the state of the world a few years from now with a market crash.

you cannot conceive of a world without credit.

no utilities
no fuel
people homeless
no jobs

The federal govt wont be able to do works projects cause they wont be able to borrow money to do it-the world aint gonna be loaning money to us.

Here's a question: Was this financial crisis part of God's plan for the nation when He decided W should be president?

The truth is that the far right slapped it to their own President, 67 percent of the Rethugs voting for their job instead of their country.

"Here's a question: Was this financial crisis part of God's plan for the nation when He decided W should be president?"

Yes, God did this to punish us because our country tolerates homosexuals.

Sincerely

The Right

GAWD Loves Dubya.

BRIWO

Thanks Chris, I've been looking at Boeing Employees Credit Union (BECU is open to all)and they look pretty good.

#272 | Posted by briwo at 2008-09-29 02:58 PM

Did you also see my post #258 showing the kind of checking account I was able to get?

Go with Boeing's CU. Sounds good. Just get out of the banks.
The say about 112 - 150 more banks are scheduled to go down.

It took me about 1-1/2 hours to set up my accounts last Friday at the CU but the peace of mind I have now is more than worth it.

GAWD Loves Dubya and Horseys.

This bill failed because nobody can explain why we need it.
All I hear is fear mongering. All I hear is "We're going to go into a great depression and everyone will die" if we don't give Wall Street all our money.

We heard all this with Iraq, and it was a lie then, and I think everyone believes we're being scammed. I'm not surprised one bit the bill failed. There's no explanation.

And maybe now that Wall Street didn't get their handout, maybe now, if they really do need it, they'll come out and explain EXACTLY why they need it.
I still haven't seen one shred of proof that this bailout is actually needed for anything. How do I know the CEOs aren't lying?

Maybe Wall Street will grovel propperly to Main Street now and beg our forgiveness. The people in this country are ready to start tar and feathering CEOs.
If they really do need $700 Billion, they need to get on TV now, bow scrape and grovel at our feet and explain exactly why, and exactly how they're going to spend it.

If they are going to start the process over, I would suggest they put Pelosi in a locked closet and let her out in Januray. What an ass.

I guessed put it at 50,000 apiece but I was and didn't list my numbers at all.

So lets work it out..
$700 Billion bailout that they can draw 3 times. - $2.1 Trillion
Bear Stearns - 30 Billion
Fanny and Freddy - $2 Trillion
AIG - $85 Billion
Federal Housing rescue bill - $300 Billion
JP Morgan/Chase repayment - $87 Billion
Plunge Protection team - $200 + Billion

Roughly.. $5 Trillion, thats about $25k apiece. I'll bet if we get real figures its closer to my number of $50k than your of $5k.

Norm is right on at #294.

Maybe Corky can lay it all out for us.

If they are going to start the process over, I would suggest they put Pelosi in a locked closet and let her out in Januray. What an ass.

Put those fucking crooks Paulson and Bernanke in there with her.

Frank has it down pat.... "What? We hurt their feelings so they voted against the country?"

Economic Recovery Plan

Something that makes good sense.

I'm against the $85,000,000,000.00 bailout of AIG.

Instead, I'm in favor of giving $85,000,000,000 to America in

a We Deserve It Dividend.

To make the math simple, let's

assume there are 200,000,000

bona fide U.S. Citizens 18+.

Our population is about

301,000,000 +/- counting every man, woman

and child. So 200,000,000

might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up..

So divide 200 million adults

18+ into $85 billon that equals $425,000.00.

My plan is to give $425,000 to

every person 18+ as a

We Deserve It Dividend.

Of course, it would NOT be tax free.

So let's assume a tax rate of

30%.

Every individual 18+ has to

pay $127,500.00 in taxes.

That sends $25,500,000,000

right back to Uncle Sam.

But it means that every adult

18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket.

A husband and wife has

$595,000.00.

What would you do with $297,500.00 to
$595,000.00 in your family?

Pay off

your mortgage?
housing crisis solved.

Repay college loans?
what a great boost to new grads

Put away money for college?
it'll be there

Save in a bank?
create money to loan to entrepreneurs.

Buy a new car?
create jobs

Invest in the market?
capital drives growth

Pay for your parent's medical insurance?
health care improves

Enable

Deadbeat Dads to come clean? or else

Remember this is for every adult US Citizen 18+

including the folks

who lost their jobs at Lehman

Brothers and every other company

that is cutting back. And of

course, for those serving in our Armed Forces.

If we're going to

re-distribute wealth let's really do it...
instead of trickling out

a puny $1000.00 ( Buy Votes )

economic incentive that is being proposed by one of our
candidates for President.

If we're going to do an $85

billion bailout, let's bail out every adult U

S Citizen 18+!

As for AIG

? liquidate it.

Sell off its parts.

Let American General go back

to being American General.

Sell off the real estate.

Let the private sector bargain

hunters cut it up and clean it up.

Here's my

rationale. We

deserve it and AIG doesn't.

Sure it's a

crazy idea that can ?never work.?

But can you imagine the

Coast-To-Coast

Block Party!

How do you spell Economic Boom?

I trust my

fellow adult Americans to know how to use the $85

Billion

We

Deserve It Dividend more than I do the geniuses

at AIG or in Washington DC.

And remember, The Birk plan

only really costs $59.5

Billion because $25.5 Billion is returned

instantly in taxes to Uncle

Sam.

Ahhh...I

feel so much better getting that off my chest. Kindest personal

regards,

Birk

T. J. Birkenmeier, A Creative Guy

& Citizen of the

Republic

PS: Feel free to pass this along to your pals as it's

either good for a laugh

or a tear or a very sobering thought on how to

best use $85

Billion!!

I am trademarking my new phrase for Pelosi - "incuntpetent". She leads a pack of assholes, with Barney Frank being (and owning) the biggest asshole of all. Just listen to this partisan nonsense. Let's elect Obama to work with these guys, that'll solve everything.

The big financial question is this-did Dubya just torpedo his speaking career with the only people who would pay to hear him?

The truth is that the far right slapped it to their own President, 67 percent of the Rethugs voting for their job instead of their country.

Just saw this guy the other day on Bill Moyers Journal:

ANDREW BACEVICH: I am expressing in the book, in a sense, what many of us sense, even if many of us don't really want to confront the implications. The Congress, especially with regard to matters related to national security policy, has thrust power and authority to the executive branch. We have created an imperial presidency. The congress no longer is able to articulate a vision of what is the common good. The Congress exists primarily to ensure the reelection of members of Congress.

. . .

ANDREW BACEVICH: Well, we don't live within our means. I mean, the nation doesn't, and increasingly, individual Americans don't. Our saving - the individual savings rate in this country is below zero. The personal debt, national debt, however you want to measure it, as individuals and as a government, and as a nation we assume an endless line of credit.

As individuals, the line of credit is not endless, that's one of the reasons why we're having this current problem with the housing crisis, and so on. And my view would be that the nation's assumption, that its line of credit is endless, is also going to be shown to be false. And when that day occurs it's going to be a black day, indeed.

Here's Bacevich's bio:

After 23 years in the Army, the West Point graduate retired as a colonel and has been teaching international relations and history at Boston University. Bacevich has published several acclaimed books, including this one, THE NEW AMERICAN MILITARISM. His latest, published this week, is THE LIMITS OF POWER: THE END OF AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM.

What is it about the likelihood of a major financial meltdown, as stated by the economists for the WH, Senate, House, and both campaigns, including the Clinton economic team, that you don't understand?

Well, the American people have no one to blame but themselves because they were the ones who voted for the guy they wanted to have a beer with.

So you believe Gore or Kerry would have put a stop to the home ownership run of 2000-2005? They would have eliminated the sub prime loans? What would they have done guaranteeing this type of collapse we see now? We already know the majority party was cluless since regaing power up until last month. We know the same dems helped write the guidelines for fannie and freddie. We now know they still don't have a fucking clue what to do. Did this package not include some slush fund from possible profits made after bailing out said Companies? I haven't read it all, but I figure the dems threw in some new BS.

On CNN they are saying a group of 12 Republicans held back their votes because they felt they had been "insulted" by something Pelosi or one of the Democrats said. Huh? They are going to take down our economy because they got their little feelings hurt?

Today is like a financial Alice in Wonderland moment.

Up is down, down is up, crazy is sane, sane is crazy

Anyone got any good meds they want to share? lol

People are callng Pelosi a coward.

We should examine whether she was cowardly, or complicit.

Pelosi's problem is that she just couldn't keep her fucking mouth shut. She praised Bush and the Repuplicans this morning for working together to forge the bill, and just couldn't help but try to take credit and shit on them right before the vote. Not that I'm sure voting it down was a bad thing.

And the CEO's who oversaw it happen should lose EVERYTHING!! All property, cash, possesions, liquidated into the US Treasury, earmarked as taxpayer bailout money.

#195 | Posted by briwo at 2008-09-29 02:23 PM

we need to print this on 100 40ft tall flags and have a fleet of blimps fly them around DC until it actually happens.

So divide 200 million adults

18+ into $85 billon that equals $425,000.00.

#300 | Posted by NeonDeon

Take $5 and go down to Walmart and buy a goddammed calculator.

Sounds like the House is going to play their mulligan card and have a re-vote.

Dow down 666.

Clearly obama is Satan.

18+ into $85 billon that equals $425,000.00.

#300 | Posted by NeonDeon

DonnerBoy's calculator strikes again!

NG,

673. No longer Satan, but rather one of Satan's minions.

What is it about the likelihood of a major financial meltdown, as stated by the economists for the WH, Senate, House, and both campaigns, including the Clinton economic team, that you don't understand?

---------

ALL pigs at the trough.

700 points, the biggest loss ever. Credit markets remain frozen.

Thanks, Repubes.

On CNN they are saying a group of 12 Republicans held back their votes because they felt they had been "insulted" by something Pelosi or one of the Democrats said. Huh? They are going to take down our economy because they got their little feelings hurt?

Keep listening to CNN for your hard news. They have such a history of talking out of Turners ass. Have we not heard this doomsday rant about the economy since January? Have we even had a negative quarter of growth this year?

On CNN they are saying a group of 12 Republicans held back their votes because they felt they had been "insulted" by something Pelosi or one of the Democrats said

How mature.

Shawn of the Brain Dead, eh?

Is there an age requirement for this site?

I see there isn't.

Frank has it down pat.... "What? We hurt their feelings so they voted against the country?" -- Corky

You forgot the best part. He asked for the names of those 12 Republicans so that he could spend the next few hours talking uncharacteristically nicely to them.

He's a funny guy, or whatever.

"So you believe Gore or Kerry would have put a stop to the home ownership run of 2000-2005? They would have eliminated the sub prime loans?"

They would not have enacted the tax cut for the rich nor invaded Iraq. Without those two things the Fed. would never have held interest rates so extremely low. We would never have had the housing bubble. Homes would have appreciated at the slow, steady rate they always did before. We would not now be in this mess.

Mean Pelosi!

The Republicans are such wallflowers that they can't handle what Pelosi said.

Boo Hoo Fucking Hoo!

Vote against the President because Pelosi blamed it on the President?

What?

What about McCain riding in for the rescue?

He yelled charge and the Republicans retreated! That's not leadership, my friends.

So, I;m guessing the 13000 Dow number the Bushies were predicting last week is off the table?

Every word Pelosi uttered was the truth.

I just heard her say it when CNN replayed it just now.

She talked about how the Repubicans' demand for deregulation, free trade, and an "anything goes, no regulations or rules" atmosphere and about Bush's policies and how he destroyed the huge surplus we had when he came into office.

What's not true about any of what she said?

In fact it sounded to me like Pelosi copied some of my posts here on DR. lol. I was always saying the exact same thing.

The idea of a re-vote is perplexing to me. Is it that simple? The House is still in session and it sounds like they are going to stay in session until they can hammer something out. Can they just re-introduce the same bill or do they have to change it? Damn my poli sci degree!

Rogers will wash your mouth out with Iraqibukkake.

eat shit and die corksucker

#321 | Posted by Shawn at 2008-09-29 03:31 PM

Ahh, I love a well thought out rebuttal.....

They would not have enacted the tax cut for the rich nor invaded Iraq.

You may be right about the tax cut. But the Iraq war was two years later. The rates and guidelines which has proven volatile were before 2003.

I'm confused -- more than normal. lol

So what happens now?

Is it the end of the world now that this trillion dollar bailout bill didn't pass?

Sounds like the Mccainiacs are about as good at predicting votes as they are debte victories:

Meanwhile, Democrats on the Hill began circulating a comment McCain strategist Steve Schmidt made on the bailout bill negotiations on "Meet the Press" on Sunday, taking credit for helping bring House Republicans along.

"What Senator McCain was able to do was to help bring all of the parties to the table, including the House Republicans, whose votes were needed to pass this," Schmidt had said.

I'm confused -- more than normal. lol

So what happens now?

Is it the end of the world now that this trillion dollar bailout bill didn't pass?

#334 | Posted by CalifChris

yep, pretty much.

"What Senator McCain was able to do was to help bring all of the parties to the table, including the House Republicans, whose votes were needed to pass this," Schmidt had said.

OOPS

Chimpy is on now blathering

Stocks falling but us poor slobs with 401ks aren't in a position to sell. I've known all along that sooner or later during this administration they would manage to rob our 401ks, this is it. I will never put another dime (and haven't for years now) into any kind of account that I can't have complete control of.

Northy,

You mean McCain is responsible for this debacle?

Who do these Repubs hate the most, McCain or Bush?

Obama's prepared remarks, from earlier today in Colorado.

"Who do these Repubs hate the most, McCain or Bush?"

McBush.

Maybe then entire Nation should just stop right now, all of us, and go get drunk. Everybody 21+, those recovering can watch the kids and be designated drivers.

Fuck it!

Briwo, I'm in. The best plan I've heard all fucking day.

DOW

End of the day closing....

The Dow is down 686.49 points, or 6.16 percent, to 10,456.64.

To be perfectly honest, killing the loan industry in the short term might be a good thing for the average American, because we are so wrapped up in debt we are throwing away portions of our living incomes to sustain it and not pay it away. The idea of the government extending itself even deeper into homeownership is concerning, as well as the fact that a lot of the people that are getting burned are the ridiculous no interest lenders who basically built a formula designed to dramatically increase the amount of interest paid on the loan. To hell with the bankers.

Stock markets plunged worldwide, Brazil lost 10 percent.

Stock markets plunged worldwide, Brazil lost 10 percent.

Don't worry Cork, you'll still be able to get your wax tomorrow.

"Hello. It's my broker. What? Then buy, buy, buy! Oh, everyone's buying? Then sell, sell, sell!"

But will you be able to wax your twat? There may not be enough left on the market.

(apologies to Sandra Bernhardt)

"...lot of the people that are getting burned are the ridiculous no interest lenders who basically built a formula designed to dramatically increase the amount of interest paid on the loan. To hell with the bankers."

actually the interest only loans are great for the consumer and a stupid instrument for the lender.

The lendee has ZERO invested in the home, so he can walk away with the only damage being a mark against his credit.

Briwo, I'm in. The best plan I've heard all fucking day.

Me too, Wisgod. You and Briwo swing by California and pick me up. I'll buy the first round. lol

Why is this the end of the world? We still have the money, it didn't go anywhere. We can still spend that 700 billion tomorrow.

All Main Street really wants is some humility from our CEOs. Or maybe it's humiliation of the CEOs?
All the CEOs have to do is get some CNN cameras, get in a big line, get down on their knees, and beg for it.

They don't even have to appologize. Just the sight of guys who fly around in Gulfstreams on their knees begging for a handout like a common street bum will turn public opinion in a second.

But they're not going to beg, which is why everyone thinks they're lying. Really, I had to work harder to get my first mortgage than the CEOs are working to get this bailout.

"Who do these Repubs hate the most, McCain or Bush?"

McBush.

#342 | Posted by danni

Danni, your Pelosi just screwed the pooch today. I can't believe that someone in that position could be so stupid!

I'm glad it failed to pass, though. I was never for it. But it's fun to watch leading Democrats and dumbass Republicans make fools of themselves.

What will make me mad is to watch these idiots get re-elected!

This is where transporters would come in real handy.

Me too, Wisgod. You and Briwo swing by California and pick me up. I'll buy the first round. lol

#352 | Posted by CalifChris

you might have to put it on a credit card.

The idea of a re-vote is perplexing to me. Is it that simple?

Yes, but it's pointless if they don't get the votes first. Boehner has announced that there won't be a re-vote today.

Remember that Congress and the Bush Administration have as much of a stake in a bailout as anyone else. They WILL come up with a deal unless is starts to look like the threat was exaggerated.

Also remember that the Treasury Department spent the weekend announcing that the stock market would crash if the bill wasn't passed. Those proclamations alone are enough to send the stock market reeling.

Me too, Wisgod. You and Briwo swing by California and pick me up. I'll buy the first round. lol

#352 | Posted by CalifChris

If I can get some money out of my checking account, it's a deal. Then we can swing buy the local shooters supply and get you a heater.

WHile we're we all may as well stock up.

While we're THERE

ALL HEAR THIS! The deal of the century is about to begin! Line up everyone! SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
!!!!!

Pigs at the trough...

CALM DOWN EVERYBODY!

china and the sawooooodis are on their way!

oh wait - they've already invested in the best we ever had...

back in a moment.

I don't own a home. I've sort of always known, that barring winning the lottery or marrying into money, that I would never own my own home. All I've ever done in my life was to daily surrender to Caesar to pay my rent and my bills and avoided spending any more than I took in. Over the years, I managed to avoid getting into the habit of paying for my "lifestyle" with credit cards, so it surprised me no end when, a couple of years ago, I began receiving an onslaught of solicitations from banks I have never had an account with, informing me that I had a $10,000 line of credit. WooHoo! Free money! I'm thinking right up to the point I spot the percentage rate on remaining balance in the fine print.

I'm sort of fortunate that I had some dealings with banks and bill collectors as a result of a rather nasty divorce, so I just kept the one fixed rate card from the one bank I've had since the early '80s and I've managed to only put a few items on the card for expenses that I couldn't possibly save quick enough to pay for, i.e. specifically my dentures and the surgical preparation for them. I own a couple of rather expensive hand made guitars that took a lot of years and a whole lot of missed meals to buy. I have one right now that I've been paying off in layaway for over 3 years. It's going to take me another two before I can ever take the beauty home.

My point in rambling on about this is that as delicious and wonderfully content owning my own home might seem to someone like me that grew up living out of a suitcase, I would never be stupid enough to take out a loan for something I know I'd be hard pressed to pay for. But I believe some people were purposely mislead into taking out these "too good to be true" mortgages and evidently could not pass up the booby-trapped carrots being dangled in front of their faces and are finding themselves now wishing they could go back to that moment when the pen was poised over the dotted line.

I have to live within my means...it's time Wall Street and the Federal Government learned do the same.

here is what king George needs to do
dismiss the congress and the senate
tell the american people that he needs the 700 billions or the terrorist will hit again
That should work!

They WILL come up with a deal unless is starts to look like the threat was exaggerated.

I don't see why they just don't add a provision that gets those 100 Dem House members to vote yea - if that means changing bankruptcy laws then do it. The thing is that version of the bill won't make it through the Senate so we will be back to square one.

McCain leads the charge up Capitol Hill!

McCain: Alright! I'm here. Let's do this thing! CHARGE!

Republicans: Uh, no. We've always thought you were a traitorous asshole.

McCain: Com'on fellas. I've got to show the leadership I've shown as a pilot.

Republicans: Are you still here?

95 dems voted against this bailout, hmm.
and we thought the repubs were the problem. wonder why the dems couldnt unite their own people?

i just love it

dutch you miss the point, interest only, zero down mortgages are dumb from a LENDERS pont of view.

The Borrower has ZERO invested in the property.

he can walk away quite easily, bye see ya!

for investors it was a GREAT way to make money

use other people's money build up equity and/or flip a house and make a boatload of cash.

for homeowers you have nothing to lose, you didnt put anythng down, your life is not invested in the property, you walk away, for about $1000 free and clear except for POSSIBLY a black mark on your credit.

the dumb ones were the banks making the loans.

"The thing is that version of the bill won't make it through the Senate so we will be back to square one."

Perhaps not but it would be good to approve it in the House and then send it to the Senate and force them to vote yea or nea. Force the President to either sign it or not too if it gets that far. If they filibuster then Reid should make them talk all night and cameras for teh TV networks should be watching for all America to see who is obstructing this.

What In The Wide Wide World Of Sports Is A Goin' On Here ?!

Did Big Bad John Solve This Last Week !

He Said He Air Dropped In To Save The Day, He Came In With A Load Of 750 LBS Bombs Hitting On Target !

He Must Have Because I Saw His Grumpy Ass At The Debate !

-Sarge

" So divide 200 million adults

18+ into $85 billon that equals $425,000.00.

"

85,000,000,000/200,000,000 drop 6 zeros from top and bottom
= 85,000/200 drop two more

= 850/2 = 425

No calculator needed.

Must be homeschooled.

danni unless you owned stock in a bank or lehman or goldman, which you are stupid if you did, you are fine. my 401k erupted after wall street recovered from 9/11 and it will do the same when the recovery from this begins to explode.

I don't see why they just don't add a provision that gets those 100 Dem House members to vote yea -- Taxman

Yep. Can't afford to waste time with people whose feelings get hurt so easily they'll renege on any deal you make with them anyway.

Dems have majorities in the House and Senate. Write a bill they'll pass, and dare Bush to veto it.

Horseonovich, yes, the same one George W. likes to milk. The favors are reciprocal, one understands.

and danni, thank frank raines for this, gorelick, even clinton said so.

I'm setting up with a local CU come Friday. The Share Draft (checking) is nill-fee regardless of balance. I'm gonna be tightening the belt a bit more as well, and starting some actual savings. Might even be able to maintain it for a while, wouldn't that be nice.

Now, here's a question for the 401k experts. All of the money I have in my company's 401k is in bonds, no stocks. How much am I likely to lose come the dawn then? Keeping in mind there isn't that much in there to be perfectly honest, and I wasn't seeing it ever build up high enough to actually retire. I just want to figure out how much I'm saving, if any at all, because I stopped contributing a while back so I could pay more towards my outstanding debt.

Perhaps not but it would be good to approve it in the House and then send it to the Senate and force them to vote yea or nea. Force the President to either sign it or not too if it gets that far. If they filibuster then Reid should make them talk all night and cameras for teh TV networks should be watching for all America to see who is obstructing this.

95 demos are helping obstruct this. pelosi, reid, and obama cant even unite their own party.

beautiful

Now, here's a question for the 401k experts. All of the money I have in my company's 401k is in bonds, no stocks. How much am I likely to lose come the dawn then? Keeping in mind there isn't that much in there to be perfectly honest, and I wasn't seeing it ever build up high enough to actually retire. I just want to figure out how much I'm saving, if any at all, because I stopped contributing a while back so I could pay more towards my outstanding debt.

are they EE bonds?

Scooter, John "Oopsie I Poopsied" McCain was boasting as to how he brought the repubs together to support this bill before it failed - you gonna ingore that fact?

Personally, I don't think Obama or McCain can be blamed or credited for anything that goes on with this bill.

donald trump on the news a moment ago:

"WHY does the government want to put your money behind bad deals instead of the good ones? they should enforce the economy by buying stable companies. (paraphrased)"

never thought about it that way before. if they actually have 700 billion to work with, this will right itself as economists have been saying all along...as ordinary citizens have been saying.

Pelosi hurt my lil wimpy republitard feelings so I won't vote for the bill. Who cares how many lives I wreck because of this? I am a rightie who PROVES the US in USA only comes after me........

LM

Ricky, de-regulation did not cause this but rather regulations requiring banks to make "affordable mortgages" available to low income folks. If everyone would pay their bill there would be no crisis.

"95 demos are helping obstruct this. pelosi, reid, and obama cant even unite their own party."

I believe that many of the Dems would be brought into the fold with some requirements that mortgages could be renegotiated but that is not the case with the Republican holdouts. So treat American homeowners a little better and the Dems will probably go along but doing that will make even more REpublicans refuse to pass the bill.

Scooter, re your 380, that I couldn't be sure of. I've noticed that my account balance doesn't gain on a daily basis, or gain's very slightly (maybe a buck a day; like I said, not much in it), but it never actually dropped when it was all in bonds. Does that help?

DonnerBoy's calculator strikes again!

#314 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2008-09-29 03:27 PM

yea! I'm famous! Hey! Wait a minute!

"95 demos are helping obstruct this. pelosi, reid, and obama cant even unite their own party.

beautiful"

#379 | Posted by scooter28054

Getting all of the dems on board would remove any ability to shift blame should the whole thing backfire. That is really all Danni/Corky/etc. cares about.

"Ricky, de-regulation did not cause this but rather regulations requiring banks to make "affordable mortgages" available to low income folks. If everyone would pay their bill there would be no crisis."

It is obvious that with the melt down of Supply Side Economics which Republicans have pushed since Reagan....they are attempting to divert the blame....but it won't work even with all the talking points Rush and SEan can think of. When the dust settles Americans are going to realize just how very corrupt this administration has been and spinning won't work when folks are losing their homes and jobs.

Liberal_Retard, it appears then that she pissed on 95 members of her own party. The bill didn't fail by 12 Republican votes.