Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Sunday, September 28, 2008

Walden Bello: Many on Wall Street and the rest of us are still digesting the momentous events of the last 10 days. Is the worst over? No. There will be more bankruptcies and government takeovers. Wall Street's collapse will deepen and prolong the U.S. recession.

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Did greed cause the collapse of global capitalism's nerve center?

Good old-fashioned greed certainly played a part. This is what Klaus Schwab, the organizer of the World Economic Forum, the yearly global elite jamboree in the Swiss Alps, meant when he said in an interview earlier this year: "We have to pay for the sins of the past."

Was it lack of regulation?

Yes. Everyone acknowledges by now that Wall Street's capacity to innovate and turn out more and more sophisticated financial instruments had run far ahead of government's regulatory capability. This wasn't because the government was incapable of regulating but because the dominant neoliberal, laissez-faire attitude prevented government from devising effective regulatory mechanisms.

No the real reason was government sponsored rules that promoted 'giving' homes to people who would never otherwise have qualified to 'achieve the American Dream'. AND NOW WE ALL WILL HAVE TO PAY FOR IT. The American dream has just become the taxpayers nightmare.

This has nothing to do with 'Wall Street greed' since our own Congress were the promoters of this disaster.

"This has nothing to do with 'Wall Street greed' since our own Congress were the promoters of this disaster"

This has everything to do with free market fundies promoting deregulated markets.

If the US wants to still live as a free open market, we need to let the market fix itself. Let those that were unwise, go down. The financial houses that were wise will rise from the ashes.

You don't reward failure.

BTW, i use a credit union to do my banking. They sent a non-standard financial statement to the customers and they are just fine. They were smart enough to not fall for the sub-prime hysteria.

I got a kick out of this part:

On December 17, 2005, when International Financing Review (IFR) announced its 2005 Annual Awards - one of the securities industry's most prestigious awards programs - it had this to say: "[Lehman Brothers] not only maintained its overall market presence, but also led the charge into the preferred space by...developing new products and tailoring transactions to fit borrowers' needs...Lehman Brothers is the most innovative in the preferred space, just doing things you won't see elsewhere."

The Wharton School (Penn's famed Top 3 Business School) periodically reiterates its pride in alum Michael Milken, despite the fact that he was sentenced to jail time after being indicted on 98 counts of racketeering and securities fraud. (See www.wharton.upenn.edu for an example of Wharton's pride.)

When I ask B-school friends about stuff like this, they shake their heads and tell me that the high-level business community thinks differently about this stuff than the rest of us -- they have so much admiration for the intellectual contributions of innovations like this that they seem to completely lose track of gross ethical lapses and huge social costs.

No the real reason was government sponsored rules that promoted 'giving' homes to people who would never otherwise have qualified...

This has nothing to do with 'Wall Street greed' since our own Congress were the promoters of this disaster.

#3 | Posted by MSgt

Not according to a study by respected real estate expert Christopher Cagan: www.csupomona.edu He finds that the default risk in cases of predatory lending (teaser rates) is about 3 times higher than for subprime loans. (There's more at www.drudge.com starting in the mid-#20's.)

the dominant neoliberal, laissez-faire attitude prevented government from devising effective regulatory mechanisms.

#2 | Posted by nullifidian at 2008-09-27 09:54 PM | Reply

There were plenty of regulations imposed after the Great Depression. These regulations were very effective in protecting the markets.

It was your talking point from Rush(blame it on the liberals)that did away with the regulations.

It was the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. Fought for by republicans for over twenty years until they finally got it passed.

It repealed the barriers placed in 1933 by the Glass-Steagall Act, to prevent just this type of crisis.

Gramm----is now McCains economic advisor.

You are talking out your ass again Nullifidian.

"You are talking out your ass again Nullifidian."

I don't what you're talking about, Bob. I agree with everything you typed except for that last sentence. Perhaps the word "neoliberal" confused you.

It confuses a lot of people, and isn't used in the U.S. much. It refers to free markets, free trade, privatization and deregulation. Think of it as a synonym for corporate globalization.

www.corpwatch.org

Nullifidian

I think your link is fucked. Liberals get blamed for things conservatives are guilty of---like deregulation.

Your link gives it's own definition of the word---it is not valid. Your--Neoliberals---sounds just like--Neoconservatives.

Sorry if you don't understand, Bob. Neoliberalism refers to liberalized markets, i.e. "free" markets. It's a common word used most everywhere except the U.S. But you go ahead and believe whatever you want. I don't really give a fuck.

If the word "neoliberalism" bothers you so much, just substitute "corporate globalization" or "free market fundamentalism" whenever you see it.

Nullifidian -- I think your link is an excellent overview. It still baffles me how the largest and best financial institutions and smartest minds in high finance all were humbled so rapidly.

In 2002, there were signs that the depressed post-tech bubble, post 9/11 real estate markets were reacting irrationally. The cumulative value of all homes in America was then $12 trillion, and even at the depths of the tech crash, $15 trillion equaled the value of all the stocks traded in America.

IMHO, there was a pre-Y2K fear that the ATM and electronic banking system could grind to a halt, and Greenspan pumped a lot of liquidity into the markets. When Y2K proved to be a non-event, the liquidity dried up a bit and the markets began to shrink, crashing the air bubble that led AOL to try to buy Time Warner and all of the other games played by the tech acquisitions. After 9/11, interest rates were driven so low that it would have been nuts not to take out a mortgage. And so a real-estate bubble followed.

Generally, I don't refer to blogs from EIR, but in some cases, EIR has been surprisingly on target. See: www.larouchepub.com

What Caused Our Economic Crisis?

nowallstreetbailout.com

The policies of George W Bush and the GOP Congress have left such a huge mess it'll take more than 8 years to straighten it all out.

Guaranteed will be the right blaming President Obama for every problem he inherited, just as they did Carter - who inherited debt from the Vietnam War, rising inflation, and energy problems. If we'd only listened to Carter we'd be free of the grip of foreign oil, wouldn't be sending $700,000,000,000 (billion) a year out of our economy to nations that don't have our best interests in mind, and people wouldn't be struggling to just to fill up their tank or pay what will be astronomical energy bills this winter.

I live in TVA country. They just enacted a 20% increase. Why? Who knows? Most of that energy is created through hydroelectric power and nuclear. Guess they raised it because they can.

"it'll take more than 8 years"

Hell, it took essentially since the 1973 oil embargo to get here; It will take a lot longer than 35 years to dig out.

zfacts.com

This Liberal propagand thread has less mesages than the one in the back page that explains how we really got in this mess, the one I posted a link to above. How about that?

Some contributing factors....

Reagan's policies took time to benefit the nation and Bush SR was not able to capitalize on it. It's the economy, stupid --- Clinton was the beneficiary. Also Clinton was forced to compromise with Republicans, and yet when things turned around Clinton tried to claim sole credit.

The Tech bubble bursts towards the close of Clinton's admin. Clinton pressured Freddie and Fannie to give home loans to low income folks who barely qualified for them --- and the trend was left uncorrected by Bush.

Then came 9/11 ($ 1 trillion), and Alan Greenspan lowered interest rate to keep financial juices flowing (even Greenspan can do only so much). By now the economy had diabetes, high cholesterol, liver problem, high blood pressure, overweight, a sick, sick man.

Poor Bernanke --- he inherited all these, and yet he didn't call for Emergency ambulance.

And now Wall Street is on life support and threatening to rain down toxic waste on main street.

No choice. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Here inaction would open the door for Armageddon.

Financial Pearl Harbor (Buffet).

Financial Tsunami.

Dear Lord, save us from disaster!

No the real reason was government sponsored rules that promoted 'giving' homes to people who would never otherwise have qualified to 'achieve the American Dream'.

That's nonsense! It was greed; greed on the part of mortgagee, mortgage broker, mortgageor and wall street banks. However, it was the greed and ingenuity of the banks and insurance companies that shaped the economic playing field that allowed the greed of all players to flourish.

Banks buy up mortgages and package multiple mortgages into CMOs (collateralized mortgage obligations). These CMOs have investment grade ratings of AAA (the highest) to unrated (junk). CMOs containing subprime mortgages were generally unrated (i.e. junk).

Typically a bank would keep the unrated CMOs on their books but some wise guy decided to get inventive and repackage mortgages from these junk CMOs into CDOs (Collateralize Debt Obligations). These CDOs received investment grade ratings unbefitting their previous junk status. The CDOs were then sold off to investment groups. Some buyers of CDOs, knowing they faced increased risks, bought insurance i.e. CDS (credit default swaps) that protected them if the CDO failed to perform.

Once the economic playing field had been established, there was a feeding frenzy. Mortgage brokers and companies didn't care who they were giving a mortgage to because they knew that the mortgages could be repackaged and resold. It was a financial payday for everybody involved; at least until the bubble burst.

"These CDOs received investment grade ratings unbefitting their previous junk status. "

I think we've found one of the weak links. Why would the CDO's be rated better than they deserve, and who is responsible for this?

BTW, when organized crime runs a scam, the authorities try to collect all the back monies scammed, and seize their assets as ill-gotten gains.

Why is this case different?

I forgot to mention that the rating agencies also bear a lot responsibility for the mess that we are in because they improperly allowed CDOs to receive an investment grade unbefitting their original unrated (i.e. junk) status. A pig with lipstick is still a pig.

when organized crime runs a scam, the authorities try to collect all the back monies scammed, and seize their assets as ill-gotten gains

I think that is why the FBI is investigating. If it can be proven that the banks conspired with the rating agencies to defraud investors, the banks and rating agencies will be held resposible. I am not sure what level of personal responsiblity can be assessed but it has to get down to the personal level to serve as a deterrent.

Dear Lord, save us from disaster!

#19 | Posted by takitez

As usual, takeashitski invokes the name of deity to cover the sins of His servants. Leave God along, this isn't his screw-up, he gave us the tools to handle it and we fucked it up. You should be thanking God that he a merciful, forgiving and ultimately loving God, otherwise we would all be shoveling sulphur with jerry falwell and jesse helms (et. al.) in hell.

If neo-liberalism means free markets, then i am one, but just as you cannot have absolute freedom in society, you cannot have absolute freedom in the market either. 'Free markets' does not mean free from all laws and regulations. That would just be dumb and a throw-back to the feudal system.

There has to be a limit established in the markets as well as society. That limit is the law and each law breaker needs to be punished. If laws were not broken and it was only a case of greed and bad decisions, then they need to fail, as the market dictates and is dictating.

" the rating agencies also bear a lot responsibility for the mess that we are in because they improperly allowed CDOs to receive an investment grade unbefitting their original unrated (i.e. junk) status."

Then where are the friggin' handcuffs?

These folks scammed the public and made money via these lies. Where's RICO?

"If it can be proven that the banks conspired with the rating agencies to defraud investors, the banks and rating agencies will be held responsible."

And then---let me guess---they'll need a bailout!

For the most part, that's a piece of crap analysis. Read Saturday's Barron's if you want to get a better summation.

For instance would more Federal regulation have saved AIG? Any of you scholars wanna take a shot at that??????

without looking at the article, i would guess it wouldn't because numbers don't lie. when you have over-extended yourself by several orders of magnitude, you probably will not survive.

For instance would more Federal regulation have saved AIG?

AIG's problem seemed to be associated with their underwriting standards. Apparently, they incorrectly assessed the risk. Their risk assessment probably included the investment grade rating of the mortgage backed security they were insuring. The article that I read suggested that the "unrated" (i.e. junk) rating of these securities was masked which calls into question the objectivity (competence?) of the rating agencies.

A regulation that may have helped would be one that ensured that insurance companies have enough cash / assets to cover their liabilities i.e. don't allow companies to become so highly leveraged!

Also, many of these companies may have huge amounts of money in offshore banks. Before using tax payer money to purchase assets from them, they should be forced to bring that off shore money back to the US. The pot could be sweetened by allowing the money to be repatriated with little or no taxes.

I thought the same too, fedup, and wondered WTF the insurance commissioner of NY was saying on bloomberg when he said all the companies were sound!?! How could that be i wondered if they needed fed assistance...

No AIG's problem were with the parent holding company only, which was under fed control. All the subsidiaries were under state control, and ALL of them are still very solvent! The states weren't allowed to inspect/regulate the parent holding company.

This has nothing to do with 'Wall Street greed' since our own Congress were the promoters of this disaster.

#3 | Posted by MSgt

you fuckers are insane..

good judgement and moral fiber cant be regulated but can curtail meltdowns like this..

wall street and congress are to blame.

How Wall Street got into this mess...

mises.org

Financial speculators outsmarted themselves by creating more and more complex financial contracts like derivatives that would securitize and make money from all forms of risk - including such exotic futures instruments as "credit default swaps" that enable investors to bet on the odds that the banks' own corporate borrowers would not be able to pay their debts!

Translation: CEOs and their cohorts in many large investment banks, insurance companies and stock brokers have engaged in a ponzi scheme whose collapse was delayed with ever more complicated acts of fraud. These are the people Paulson wants to bail out.

No AIG's problem were with the parent holding company only, which was under fed control. All the subsidiaries were under state control, and ALL of them are still very solvent! -- Davethewave

Isn't it misleading to hold AIG up as if it's the typical case?

In the mid-2000s AIG became embroiled in a series of fraud investigations conducted by the Securities and Exchange Commission, U.S. Justice Department, and New York State Attorney General's Office. Greenberg was ousted amid an accounting scandal in February 2005. The New York Attorney General's investigation led to a $1.6 billion fine for AIG and criminal charges for some of its executives. [2] en.wikipedia.org

Under the circumstances, "Would federal regulation have saved AIG?" really sounds like the wrong question.

At this point, I don't trust any American politicians. When I scan through foreign papers (e.g., Financial Times' coverage), I keep running across the same kind of answers Fedupwithpols (#28) does -- over-leveraging, and difficulties of assessing the risk and value of the financial instruments the mortgages were packaged into.

You don't reward failure.

I agree.

FUCK the minimum wage and welfare.

:-(

It was your talking point from Rush(blame it on the liberals)that did away with the regulations.

One word that idiotbob doesn't understand and he accuses Nullifidan of being a Rush Limbaugh loyalist.

Such distrust and ignorance all wrapped together.

Explains idiotbob's obsession with all conspiracy theories.

It seems that everyone at all levels bear some responsibility with this mess:

- Republicans wanted to reduce regulation in the market
- Democrats wanted to make it easier for lower income folks to get home loans
- Banks wanted to make more loans
- Brokers wanted to sell more loans
- Insurers wanted to insure more loans
- (I'd put something here about the bond rating agencies, but I'm not really sure how they make their money)

It looks like everyone thought they were padding things just a little bit so they could justify making a killing. And these guys -- the 'experts' let all the consumers think that home prices only go up, so if you get into a loan that will readjust in 3 years it won't be a problem since your home value will have gone up and you will quite easily be able to refinance. I was told that by friends, family, neighbors, coworkers and business associates for years leading up to when we finally bought. Yeah, that worked out well. Our plan was to stay in the new-construction condo for about 3 years and then refinance or sell and take the profit from that and make a bigger down payment on another home. Now we are going to have to sit in it another year or two since we are upside down by about 10%. How long will it take to go positive? Who knows.

We need to change the tax laws to stop this 'home buying' incentive nonsense anyhow -- all it does is help drive the home-industry. There's no more real benefit to owning vs renting for the vast majority of people -- especially if you are not going to be in the same space for substantially longer than 5 years.

We need an investigation but without Jamie Gorelick this time.

Here is a very good photo essay on:

Reason to be worried -- very worried -- about the bailout deal
directorblue.blogspot.com

Just as I was saying last Friday....the lack or regulations made it possible the housing bubble created by Greenspan made it inevitbable.

"What about the current bubble? How did it form?
The current Wall Street collapse has its roots in the technology-stock bubble of the late 1990s, when the price of the stocks of Internet startups skyrocketed, then collapsed in 2000 and 2001, resulting in the loss of $7 trillion worth of assets and the recession of 2001-2002.

The Fed's loose money policies under Alan Greenspan encouraged the technology bubble. When it collapsed into a recession, Greenspan, to try to counter a long recession, cut the prime rate to a 45-year low of one percent in June 2003 and kept it there for over a year. This had the effect of encouraging another bubble - in real estate.

As early as 2002, progressive economists such as Dean Baker of the Center for Economic Policy Research were warning about the real estate bubble and the predictable severity of its impending collapse. However, as late as 2005, then-Council of Economic Adviser Chairman and now Federal Reserve Board Chairman Ben Bernanke attributed the rise in U.S. housing prices to "strong economic fundamentals" instead of speculative activity. Is it any wonder that he was caught completely off guard when the subprime mortgage crisis broke in the summer of 2007?""

"Just as I was saying last Friday....the lack or regulations made it possible the housing bubble created by Greenspan made it inevitbable."

Ah, Danni...same ol', same ol' from you. Here, this is from the New York Times on September 30, 1999.

"Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits."

Notice that it doesn't mention Greenspan.

"Fannie Mae has expanded home ownership for millions of families in the 1990's by reducing down payment requirements,'' said Franklin D. Raines, Fannie Mae's chairman and chief executive officer."

Still no mention of Greenspan.

"In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980's."

"From the perspective of many people, including me, this is another thrift industry growing up around us,'' said Peter Wallison a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. ''If they fail, the government will have to step up and bail them out the way it stepped up and bailed out the thrift industry."

query.nytimes.com

Seems Wallison had it right in 1999. Lemme see...who was in office???? OH...here it is:

"....has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people..."

It doesn't absolve the Bush administration either because they continued it.

It doesn't absolve the Bush administration either because they continued it.

I don't understand why it's so hard for everyone to admit that THEY ALL hate us. This isn't about party affiliation. This is about the Elite and you. It really is Main Street and Wall Street, but the opposite way that it is being sold.

"I don't understand why it's so hard for everyone to admit that THEY ALL hate us. This isn't about party affiliation."

Wow...I gotta agree with with ya.' Lotsa folks wanna swoon, get tingles and all that over some fuckin' politician. They are ALL just politicians and most of 'em are lawyers to boot. If they were just out in the public practicing law we'd hate 'em, but once they start running for office some folks fall in love with them. Especially if they're leftist-socialists. They all suck!

The financial world in America, especially in housing, has been a Ponzi scheme for many years, with everyone denying risk and making over-optimistic assumptions about reward, all based on the crazy notion that housing prices would go up ad infinitum.

Contributing were the twin, and faulty, notions that poor people with bad credit needed entry to the party, and, on the right, that "No rules, dude" was the way to vast increases in wealth.

Well, like most houses of cards, the least wind blows it over. And here we are. Expect more pain.

"The financial world in America, especially in housing, has been a Ponzi scheme for many years, with everyone denying risk and making over-optimistic assumptions about reward, all based on the crazy notion that housing prices would go up ad infinitum."

No, not really for many years, really just since 2003. Greenspan successfully masked the recession with home equity dollars, when the equity evaporated millions of borrowers were in trouble and thus most banks were in trouble.

Danni,

Actually, bad lending practices - tacitly (and now overtly) supported via the government through Fannie and Freddie were far bigger factors than low interest rates.

The government wanted to 'make housing affordable' for the poor and thus supported poor lending practices via their partial control of Fannie and Freddie. The rest of the industry followed suit out of greed and a legitimate fear of losing precious market-share. A bubble was created and it popped.

I am not saying that absurdly-low interest rates didn't contribute. What I am saying is that the government support of bad loans was a much bigger contributor.

"What I am saying is that the government support of bad loans was a much bigger contributor."

The lenders are NOT stupid. Without the government insurance and guarantees the loans would NEVER have been made. Regardless of ALL the evidence posted here, Danni is NEVER gonna accept that any democrat has dirty hands whatsoever. For her, it's all 100% the fault of the republicans. You're wasting your time. You gotta realize that Danni is a few sandwiches short of a picnic.

"Without the government insurance and guarantees the loans would NEVER have been made."

The real problem was created by recollateralizing junk loans into CDOs rated higher than their junk contents, and leveraging paper against paper.

" Regardless of ALL the evidence posted here, Danni is NEVER gonna accept that any democrat has dirty hands whatsoever."

Then please lead the bi-partisan way, and list the Republicans you believe are at fault, and for what.

Sorry Jeff but that old tired talking point is bull shit. The only people putting forth that nonsense are those who are trying to divert the blame away from Bush and the Republicans. Read the article and pay close attention to the part I enclosed in quotations on my #39 post.
When you consider that the "crisis" really is created by lack of value to match the amount of the mortgages written then it is pretty obvious what is going on. I read six months ago that the average homeowner in the US lost an average of $80,000 equity value and it has grown since. Those losses are what is creating this "crisis."

"" Regardless of ALL the evidence posted here, Danni is NEVER gonna accept that any democrat has dirty hands whatsoever."

That is baloney, I completely understand Clinton's responsibility in this but it was still the attempt to mask the Bush recession with low interest rates that created the mess. That isn't partisanship it's history. We all watched home values rise at double digit rates, I said at the time it was artificially created value and the brillion right wing amateur economists here laughed and called me names. NOw it is obvious that those rising values were just the results of 1% interest rates, when interest rates rose they simply disappeared just like I said they would. When that much value disappears you are going to have a huge crisis for those holding mortgages based on those inflated values.

Danni,

A multitude of factors contributed to this mess.

Absurdly-low interest rates contributed to be sure.

That said, the governmental support and backing of bad loans via bad lending practices were a much bigger factor.

Jeff, Danni, anyone --

If I buy stock, is it safe to buy shares if they are kept in what's called "street name"?

I was going to buy a few shares through an e-trade company but your shares are kept in a "street name" and not your own name. Is that how stocks are normally held?

Thanks.

The market is down more than 250.
Dow, S&P, NASDAQ are all going

d
o
w
n

not only stocks here but all over the globe

"Then please lead the bi-partisan way, and list the Republicans you believe are at fault, and for what."

Too many to list. Starting with Paulson all through the whole administration who KNEW or should have known of the impending disaster. It's unclear just how informed Bush was, but in any case, he should have known. You'll never find an instance where I said the republicans are free of blame.

It wwasn't "underregulation," but "overregulation" that created this mess. Theee was a series of legislative acts that compelled the lending institutions to abandon standard practices, and loan money specifically to minorities using amended criteria, and eliminating the necessity to provide proof of income and disregarding poor credit records.

Here is some of the legislation that compelled these practices, and Attorney General Janet Reno under the Clinton Administration threatened lenders who did not actively make loans without regard to probability of repayment, to minorities.

Congress passed several laws aimed at eliminating discrimination (e.g., Fair Housing Act (1968); Equal Credit Opportunity Act (1974); Community Reinvestment Act (1977, amended 1989); Home Mortgage Disclosure Act (1975)). Various federal agencies monitor lenders for compliance with lending laws and provide information to the Department of Justice for prosecution.

And now, surpirse, surprise, 91% of the low defaulters are minorities, so that the 5% overall default rate has less than one-half of one percent of non-minority defaulters, and the remainder of the defaulters are minorities, who precipitated this economic crisis.

That's the consequence of leftist social engineering which throws the entire economy into imbalance.

"That said, the governmental support and backing of bad loans via bad lending practices were a much bigger factor."

Utterly ridiculous. Tell me which right wing liar told you that. When you consider an average of $80,000 equity loss per homeowner it becomes ludicrous that anyone would even try to sell those idiotic talking points.

It's unclear just how informed Bush was, but in any case, he should have known.

Bush told Americans not to worry when INDY bank went under. When that happened Bush announced Fannie and Freddie were fine and could handle everything. Two months later Fannie and Freddie went belly up. Bush knew at that time he was lying to us. Bush does nothing BUT lie. Believe nothing the man tells you.

I read where a lot of the main moneymen here in the U.S. got most of their money out of here during 2007. They all knew what was coming down -- at least those at the very top knew for sure.

"CRA Myth and Fact
Myth: The Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) caused the foreclosure crisis."

www.ncrc.org

OK??? No more of these stupid talking points. It was just like I told you, 1% interest rates caused people to borrow on equity which has now disappeared. No matter how much the right wing talking point masters try to spin it it still comes out the same. I bet some of those right wing talkers welcomed advertising by the very same mortgage companies who teased with 1% though now they try to pretend it wasn't them, no...it was them po black folks.....the more things change the more they stay the same...and when you get the likes of Johnson spinning it....the racism is palpable.

DANNI

This fallout is mainly due to the Republicans' free trade mantra and love of deregulation but here's an article I found today and it's quite interesting.

Some left wing politicians and various activist groups had threatened a few of these banks if they would not make housing loans to minorities and the poor who normally should not have qualified. The left wanted to get rid of "red-lining" and banks who refused to go along with making loans to poor credit risk persons were singled out by the left for not doing so. Fannie and Freddie were involved big time.

Looks to me like BOTH sides are at fault although the Republicans take the bulk of the blame for their deregulation garbage.

Check this out --

"THE REST OF THE MELTDOWN STORY"

Danni,

Are you at all familiar with lendig practices?

Formulas are used for a reason.

Fannie and Freddie, via government assistance and tacit backing shirked said qualifications under the auspice of 'making housing more affordable for the poor.'.

Just before this was rolled out as a pilot program, the NY Times predicted what we are currently experiencing.

Utterly ridiculous. Tell me which right wing liar told you that.

Are you capable of discussing anything without blatant partisanship?

The lending industry hedged their bets on these bad loans based upon the government's tacit backing of this bad paper via Fannie and Freddie. Given the government's response, their hedging proved correct.

A lot of factors are at play. However, you are delusional if you believe that ill-advised governmental interference in the market-place wasn't a considerable factor in this.

"The lending industry hedged their bets on these bad loans based upon the government's tacit backing of this bad paper via Fannie and Freddie."

If you bet big and win, you get to keep all the money. If you bet big and lose, we'll pay.

Even lil' ole me can see the problem here.

But ultimately, a lot of these were scams (rating CDOs higher than their junk components). When organized crime does this, all the scammed monies are recaptured, and their assets seized as ill-gotten gains.

What's the difference in this case? Why aren't we recalling those multi-billions in bonuses Lehman Brothers got last year?

"Are you capable of discussing anything without blatant partisanship?"

Jeff it isn't partisanship it's economics. Don't blame me for the fact taht the excuses now being trotted out by PARTISAN talking point makers are only interested in attempting to deflect the blame from Bush and Greenspan to a few Congressmen, etc.

"A lot of factors are at play. However, you are delusional if you believe that ill-advised governmental interference in the market-place wasn't a considerable factor in this."

Well, quasi-government interference by Alan Greenspan. I have said it before that the lack of regulations enabled banks to create this mess but without the exceptionally low interest rates no housing bubble would have been created. Without the bubble nothing significant would have happened, the one difference that would have occurred....in 2004 Bush wouldn't have had a chance of winning during a recession. Because of the bubble caused by low interest rates most Americans didn't realize how bad the economy really was and still is. You can believe it or you can believe right wing talking points, it's your choice. Most thinking people are capable of recognizing cause and effect though even with swirling talking points which are mostly meaningless accusations about things that never really effected much of anything.

BTW Jeff, did you even read the article I linked?

Danni,

I can post a dozen links that support my argument.

You can believe it or you can believe right wing talking points, it's your choice. Most thinking people are capable of recognizing cause and effect though even with swirling talking points which are mostly meaningless accusations about things that never really effected much of anything.

Look inward. You are clinging to a link that supports your viewpoint. I can (and have over the last 2 weeks) provide plenty of links that support my viewpoint.

You do yourself a tremendous disservice when you castigate someone with whom you disagree as stupid, ignorant and a blind-sheep. This is exactly what you did with the post that I reproduced. I hate to break it to you, but I do frequently open a book and a periodical. I actually got a degree in economics from a reputable university.

I don't hold my bona fides over your head as an implied superiority - just as a means of pointing out to you that I am not quite the idiot that you make me out to be.

So, Jeff, did you read the link or not???

Who profited from what has become a debacle? Well among others, real estate agents, mortgage loan brokers, developers, builders, workers in the construction trades, purveyors of products used in construction, and generally everyone since there was an economic boom with all of that money generated, stimulating the economy.

The system is such that people pursued their individual agendas, and each home sale and each mortgage packaged produced a commission for the agents and brokers accomplishing the tasks. It was to the personal advantage of everyone involved to close the deals. That was the work. And because of personal incentives, it was avidly pursued. The benefits were distributed up and down the line ranging from the lowly real estate agents to the heads of corporations packaging and selling or buying the loans.

The law, regulations, and coercion compelling loans to be made to uncreditworthy minorities, created this mess, and now the taxpayer is being dunned to bail out the incestuously linked financial institutions and the political establishment.

Since with dropping of the artificially prices, an increasing amount of the debt is not collateralized, "the paper" that the government is undertaking to "support," will be worth increasingly less.

The housing market is worse than what is apparent as the prices are plummeting even with the debasement of the dollar, which is worth less and less due to the bailout among other factors. Inflation is a factor in maintaining the cost of housing above what it would otherwise be.

This is a social engineering debacle attributable primarily to the subordination of market practices to ideological imperatives. The market got out of synchronisation as if does from time to time. Adjustments are usually manageable, but with the intrusion of the government creating bogus mandates and forcing institutions to abandon prudent practices to accomplish social goals, this adjustment will take longer and inflict more harm by destabilizing the economy for a much longer period with greater unemployment, and non-utilization of resources.

So, Jeff, did you read the link or not???

Yes, I read the link.

It didn't dispute what I've been saying, if you read my comments carefully you'll see that.

Anyhow, gotta run.

Somehow the fact that 91% of the loan defaults are by minorities would indicate that a disproportionate number of loans were made to unqualified minorities, who have demonstrated their inability to maintain payment on these loans.

These loans were made under government compulsion requiring that certain percentages of loans be made in certain areas. It's remarkable that identifying the problem is called "racism" by some apologists for government policies compelling this disposition of funds.

Cut through the chaff, and explain the identity of the loan defaulters.

By the way, the majority of the officers of these financial institutions and Fannie and Freddie, are Democrat Party supporters. Wall Street is generally a hotbed of those who have cast their lot with the Democrat Party. If the investigations come to fruition - and if there was actual criminality charged - then those involved, the designated culprits, will have been supporters of the Democrat Party.

The government has been used as a tool to divert money from some folks and to the benefit of others, and now we are all being screwed by this bailout of Democrat fatcats. but it's not just the Democrat Party. The government is used as a tool by members of both parties to advance their personal interests.

Check the backgrounds of the Wall Street profit makers, those seemingly unjustly enriched although they were in compliance with the law. Predominantly Democrt liberals? Hmm.

They were compelled to abandon prudent lending practices, such as redlining, one device which prevented loans from being made in areas in which the security was "insecure." These "socially motivated" changes were made at the behest of the ideologues. The Wall Street profit makers (profiteers has negative and misleading semantic connotations which are not appropriate to describing the situation as aside from unpunishable government corruption there were no yet identified laws broken) went by the book. When they were coerced to lend to minorities without regard to ability to repay, they went on a rampage and made exorbitant profits. If anyone is at fault, it's the leftist agitators, who contrived this legislation and strict enforcement.

Ah, verboten questions. Were the lenders required or even permitted to establish the residence status of borrowers as an indication of their stability.

By the way, if the Hispanics return to "the old country," now that the jobs and opportunities are drying up, possibly there will be unanticipated serendipitous consequences to this mess as they self-deport, deportation of illegal aliens being something that our government has not demonstrated it has the cojones to do.

Somehow, the attempt is being made to describe the borrowers as "victims." Were they speculating that prices would rise? Or were they merely too stupid to make a connection between their income and anticipated income, and ability to continue to make payments on their obligations? Or did they jhust figure that they had interim housing and could occupy it for a while even though the payments were in default.

The community organizations quite possibly had a hand in this if past conduct is a guideline. We had some properties in Hispanic areas, and "community organizations" actually passed out pamphlets, and provided services to people to encourage them not to pay rent and save money while occupying he residence for extended periods of time. And the U.S. government funds these groups, fully or partially, and supports activities antithetical to the interests of the larger community, and totally lacking in ethical values.

www.reedconstructiondata.com

Excerpts:

The federal government made the subprime mortgage mess inevitable when it imposed social engineering rules on private mortgage contracts. The long process began with the 1975 Home Mortgage Disclosure Act (HMDA), the 1977 Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) and the regulatory bureaucracy that these two legislative acts required.

Over the next thirty years, the subprime mortgage market emerged, banks and S&L's shifted half of their mortgage lending to lines of credit to mortgage brokers not covered by HMDA and CRA and federal bank regulators ignored poor underwriting practices as long as the HMDA statistics showed a rising acceptance rates for mortgage applications for low income and minority households.

The HMDA required banks and other regulated mortgage lenders to report mortgage application acceptances and rejections by the race, age, sex, income and the geographic location of the applicants. This was in response to charges that some lenders had "redlined" poor and minority neighborhoods, refusing to approve mortgages in neighborhoods where they believed people typically had poor credit and home price appreciation was relatively low.

The first set of HMDA statistics showed a lower acceptance rate for low income and minority mortgage applications and led to the enactment of the CRA. This legislation required banks and other regulated mortgage lenders to show improving performance in accepting low income and minority mortgage applications in semiannual audits or face rejection by bank regulators of their requests to open branch banks, acquire another bank or take any action subject to regulatory approval.

The law allowed any community group to object to bank actions requiring regulatory approval if the group believed a bank had an unacceptable record in mortgage lending. The consequence was that a bizarre process emerged in which banks seeking regulatory approval for any expansion plans had to negotiate with community groups and reach an agreement to loosen underwriting standards for low income and minority mortgage applications.

These agreements often included setting up a mortgage fund that would only lend to low income and minority applicants.


The article continues. There is a link provided.

This has nothing to do with 'Wall Street greed' since our own Congress were the promoters of this disaster.

I disagree. This has to do with Wall Street greed. And lender greed. And borrower greed. And real estate agent greed. And politicians greedy for the votes of the disenfranchised. And our own greed.

It became commonly accepted beginning in the mid-1970's that home ownership is a right, not an earned privilege. By 1998, the Clinton adminstration, with the noblest aim, compelled Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to write loans to people (of all colors) who up until then would typically have been denied mortgages based on the simple fact that they likely could not afford to pay the loans off on a persistent basis.

Over this same period of time -- from the early 1980's to present -- mortgages once writtenand held in the local hometown banks, were now being bundled and sold in complex hard-to-rate packages that got tradd and sold between institutions, to the point where nobody really had a a handle on how rotten the core of some of the packages were -- even though they should have, they didn't. Deregulation of the industry almost guaranteed that no one would ever be forced to check.

By the early 2000's, greedy lenders (some banks, many mortgage companies) and greedy real estate brokers pushed people, who had no idea what they were signing, to take loans they could not afford to ever pay back in full. People who should have known what they were signing, but were either too stupid or too blinded by their own greed.

Enter scam artists (a great number of them illegal immigrants who took the mortgage money and simply returned home with it) who themselves took loans with no intent of ever paying the oney back.

Everyone involved on the lnding side knew there was a chance that ome of the rotten apple loans in the packaged instrument would end up going bad. What nobody realized was that one bad apple does spoil the whole bunch, and in the end the domino effect created was uncontrollable.

Even our own greed fed this: As unqualified buyers were cajoled into (or lied their way into) buying houses, demand went up, and my house's value went up, and I was happy. And I did nothing to compell by rep or senator or anyone else to address what was known to be a bubble about to burst.

Democrats and Republicans both dropped the ball on this issue. Anyone who says it was one or the other is a disingenuous shill.

The linked article is a "progressive" view (by its own admission), which leans heavily toward blaming deregulation and lender greed (the anti-Repub view) but fails to mention the borrower greed and effect of the 1998 action. It is a biased article due to its incompleteness and what one can only assume is an unstated agenda.

The government wanted to 'make housing affordable' for the poor and thus supported poor lending practices via their partial control of Fannie and Freddie.

is the problem the poor homeowners or the speculators/flippers?

has anyone looked at which entity is defaulting on loans?

www.iht.com

Last year the median down payment on home purchases was 9 percent, down from 20 percent in 1989, according to a survey by the National Association of Realtors. Twenty-nine percent of buyers put no money down. For first-time home buyers, the median was 2 percent. And many borrowed more than the price of the home to cover closing costs.

"I think I could make a case that some borrowers were 'renting' (with risk), rather than owning," Nicolas Retsinas, director of the Joint Center for Housing Studies at Harvard University, said in an e-mail message.

For some people, then, foreclosure becomes something akin to eviction a traumatic event, and a blow to one's credit record, but not one that involves the loss of life savings or of years spent scrimping to buy the home.

In recent months top executives from Bank of America, JPMorgan Chase and Wachovia have all described a new willingness by borrowers to walk away from mortgages.

Carrie Newhouse, a real estate agent who also works as a loss mitigation consultant for mortgage lenders in Minneapolis-St. Paul, said she saw many homeowners who looked at foreclosure as a first option, preferable to dealing with their lender. "I've had people say to me, 'My house isn't worth what I owe, why should I continue to make payments on it?' " Newhouse said.

wouldnt it be irresponsible for a lending institution to loan money under these circumstances?

the lendee has zero invested in the property-beyond the potential to get a hit in his credit score.

www.knoxviews.com

The Freakonomics clowns have been mostly merely annoying. But being a mainstream conduit for fatuous wingnut talking points is just beyond the pale, man.

[T]here is no doubt at all about how we got into this mess...[A]t the heart of the problem is Congress and its deeply corrupt relationship with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Congress was equally at the heart of the savings and loan disaster 20 years ago and, obviously, learned nothing from it.

Bullshit.

The author, like all the other purveyors of this and other similar dumbass notions, fails to explain the mechanism by which the GSEs ruined America. He harps on poor and corrupt management, accounting scandals and skeezy congressional ties - all of which existed. But zero evidence is provided for the core implication that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac stampeded Wall Street into making bad loans to the shiftless underclass.

That's because no such evidence exists. The GSEs followed Wall Street into subprime late in the game, and held only a tiny fraction of the junk. This is proof that the management was exceptionally stupid - the object of a pyramid scheme is to be the first to join, not the last - but it is not confirmation that the GSEs were the "heart of the problem." Just the opposite, in fact.

These facts also put lie to the corollary wingnut talking point that McCain was prescient in predicting the financial crisis. The accounting scandals he rightly railed about had nothing to do with either the need for GSE privatization (poorly worded) for why the GSEs failed and certainly not the broader housing fiasco. And McCain said absolutely nothing about the subprime recklessness that the rest of Wall Street was engaging in, and that the GSEs would not dabble in for another year.

The bottom line is that Wall Street did not embrace risky credit because of any government housing mandate or competition from government-sponsored enterprises. It embraced risky credit 1) because there was no regulation standing it its way and 2) because it thought it could make mo' money off po' people by charging usurious interest rates.

...one other point. If the conservative argument is that, more broadly, the GSEs distorted the housing market by creating artificial demand, then I expect they will also come out against the mortgage interest tax deduction. Riiiiight.

Fannie and Freddie, via government assistance and tacit backing shirked said qualifications under the auspice of 'making housing more affordable for the poor.'.

Got to laugh at shit like this, typical republican, when the shit hits the fan for their lack of common sense and good practice blame the government.

The government MADE them give these loans, MADE them OK loans that they knew could not be paid.

Fucking republicans and their constant finger pointing and excuses for their greedy unethical money grabbing ways.

agonist.org

From a balance sheet perspective, this is a huge deal. Essentially, the owners/stockholders see their actual ownership interest wiped out overnight. Imagine if you were part owner of a company and you just woke up to discover your ownership interest -- which was pretty decent yesterday, is now worth nothing 24 hours later.

Loose credit standards are a prime culprit in the problems:

HSBC's borrowers included people who couldn't make their first mortgage payments as well as people who misrepresented their income or employment on their mortgage applications, interviews and HSBC's court filings show.

Fucking republicans and their constant finger pointing and excuses for their greedy unethical money grabbing ways.

Your partisan interpretation is part of the problem. To say the lenders are bad and the borrowers innocent is disingenuous and simplistic. To say borrowers were corrupt and lenders imply following gopvernemnt laws is similarly disingenuous and simplistic. If you blame only the Republicans and only the lending companies, you are no worse than Repubs who blame only the low-income borrowers and the Dem-backed policies that made their loans possible. if you bklame only Repub administrations and ignore the Dem involvement, you are blind to half the blameable parties.

The corporate fat cat scumbags and the low income undeserving scumbags ate all of our lunches for 15 years and now we get to pay once again for their fuck ups. Trying to pin blame fully on one side of the aisle is a glaring attempt by all on here to try and get their own candidate elected in November, and nothing more..

Got to laugh at shit like this, typical republican, when the shit hits the fan for their lack of common sense and good practice blame the government.

The government MADE them give these loans, MADE them OK loans that they knew could not be paid.

Fucking republicans and their constant finger pointing and excuses for their greedy unethical money grabbing ways.

#76 | Posted by moneywar

You love to dismiss posts without ever refuting what has been said.

"I love to laugh at this......" is your signature post. Yet, you rarely follow it up with anything substantive.

Remember that the Community Redevelopment Act and allied legislation commanded the lenders to make loans to people who weren't creditworthy, accepting declarations instead of verifying income and circumstances, and prohibiting inquiry into legal residency and the like.

Of course, since the individual agendas of lenders were served, once they recognized this as a cornucopia, they zealously participated.

But who profited? Why the real estate agents, the loan packagers, developers, builders, people working in the building trades, and the remainder of the community that profited from the "up times," and the accompanying euphoria. The money was flowing everywhere. It was boom time.

Of course, it was no secret that the loans were only partially secured with the situation eventually becoming wilder and wilder, and people acquiring properties with what was euphemistically called "negative equity."

Some of the people acquiring properties were speculators, who rode a long wave. Others were people with insufficient intelligence to figure out that their income and anticipated future income, was insufficient to service the debt. When the non-performing loans reached a critical point, and with the Enron accounting reforms, the assets of the lenders were realistically valued at their current sales price, and the reserves of the institutions evancesced upon restatement.

The property markets follow an overall upward trend. But within the inflationery trend, they are cyclical, and there are periodic adjustments to reesablish equilibrium. These "adjustments" today are just compounded because of the lax lending practices that the government commanded to benefit minorities by enabling them to participate in home ownership. The benefit proved elusive and transitory, and the motivated people in lending and allied industries, who benefited from volume regardless of the a ability of the borrower to service the debt, were the actual beneficiaries. Unanticipated and unintended consequences. But everyone was "living high."

The institutions that bundled the loans proceeded with government sanction to represent the bundles of loans as worth far more than they were. But Wall Street has never hesitated in foisting misrepresented IPOs on unsupsecting investors.

The absence of equity in these mortgage loans was well-known within the industry. Google "Dr. Chris Cagan," who reports on such matters, and you can access a 2006 report in pdf format that details the dire equity situation in 2004 and 2005, and the steep increase in loans with negative equity.

The clamor the Democrat Party functionaries are making is ludicrous considering their complicity in forcing these revised lending practices on the country in their mindless effort to serve minorities and letting the Devil take the hindmost insofar as the rest of the country and eventually the ill-served minorities were concerned. Parenthetically, most of the big-time beneficiaries of these practices including the Wall Street fat-cats, are affiliated with the Democrat Party.

#72 | Posted by truthhurts at 2008-09-29 01:46 PM

has anyone looked at which entity is defaulting on loans?

Yes and lo and behold, 91% of the defaults are by minority borrowers.

This drive to provide special consideration, and create special privileges for minorities, has come back to bite everyone in the ass. And they are unwilling to recognize the problem and return to a situation, where minority status did not compel special treatment, enactment of new laws, waiver of rules, and the like.

Unfortunately, as there are not markers for the practice as there are in the markets, the pervasive presence of lowered standards and special grants for admission to universities, set-asides for minority businesses, and employment preferences based on minority status, have probably been even more costly but they are not as apparent.

School busing was an exercise in futility and accomplished abandonment of the cities, leaving them to deteriorate as whites fled. The cost was enormous, great amounts expended on buses, fuel use with accompanying pollution, drivers, and the like, and youngsters wasting much as two or more hours per day on non-productive travel, together with diminished parental participation as schools were no longer neighborhood schools.

And what did "integration of the schools" accomplish for the students in the way of achievement. The same thing that the $160 million grant intended to improve learning in the Chicago schools did, the grant administered by Obama, who was chosen by "Bomber Bill" Ayers. the grant accomplished "nothing," according to the official finding.

The price of racial and ethnic accommodation has been enormous and undoubtedly has contributed to our economic malaise with huge amounts of resources wasted or misused..

Johnson-
and here I was heading to bed

re: Yes and lo and behold, 91% of the defaults are by minority borrowers.

Support that, you racist son of a bitch.

My word johnson, do you ever give up your drivel?

Shake your damn head, your eyes are stuck.

Johnson-
re: Yes and lo and behold, 91% of the defaults are by minority borrowers.

I'm waiting for you to back that up, Goebbels.

....Substantially increase by at least $440 billion, the financial commitment made by the government sponsored enterprises involved in the secondary mortgage market, specifically targeted toward the minority market;

www.whitehouse.gov ip-policy-book-ch2.html

fucked up the link. apparently, we're living bush's dream now:

bush's dream

uk.youtube.com

The Libs failed dream!

Incestuous, revolving door, double dealing, mother fuckers with a string of stupid Rethuglican apologists spouting Hannity and Limbaugh talking points.

It would be stupid to take out an undocumented $500,000 mortgage on a $50,000 income, but its NOT A CRIME. If a small time individual did default on a loan in which the borrower lied on his application, he would be prosecuted. This is done automatically at taxpayer expense.

Bundling these worthless mortgages, reselling them as "insured mortgages" or deliberately misrepresenting the risks is a crime. So is selling insurance policies on these packages without any capital to back up the policies. They took the money until foriegners wised up and refused to buy any more, then they found themselves in trouble, holding all their own fraudulent paper. Investment Banks and Stock Brokers posing as Insurance Companies (unregulated) and Banks (uninsured). That's a fucking crime and it should be prosecuted.

Ex-private sector CEOs, running the Government, want to bail out their partners that took the money and ran. No one mentions the criminal activity underlying the problem. No taxpayer money is likely to be expended to jail these big time crooks or recover capital. If they did a bailout would be impossible.

One set of rules for the rich and powerful, another for working schmucks.

Mr. Paulson worked as Chairman and CEO of Goldman Sachs until he was sworn in as U.S. Treasury Secretary on July 10, 2006. Exotic instruments created and peddled by Goldman around the globe while Mr. Paulson was Goldman's Decider have contributed to the collapse. His former firm has also benefited to the tune of tens of billions from taxpayer money already doled out by the Federal Reserve. Other firms like Merrill Lynch and Citigroup/Smith Barney that broke the backs of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by selling them billions in explosive derivatives have also seen their prior execs appointed to plum spots in the "rescue" mission.

"Section 203 of the Financial Services Regulatory Relief Act of 2006 (12 U.S.C. 461 note) is amended by striking October 1, 2011' and inserting October 1, 2008.'"

What would this effectively do? It was intended to speed up the enactment of this section of the law from 2011 to this week.

And what is the impact of the change in this law? (Take a moment to let this sink in.) This wonderful bipartisan bailout proposal, negotiated into the wee hours of the morning by sleep-deprived members of Congress was designed to come with a furtive Trojan Horse embedded by Wall Street lawyers. Banks already in trouble for lack of capital would get to hold as little as "ZERO" capital for transactions.

But it does solve one giant mystery. All of Wall Street has been attempting to understand why firms like Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, who have concentrated on mergers, acquisitions, stock and bond underwriting for more a cumulative 212 years, decided in a heartbeat to enter the world of retail banking and transform into bank holding companies. (That's like asking General Motors to retool overnight for washing machines.) Now we know. Effective this week, if this bailout proposal would have passed in its current form, these firms would have had a new best friend at the Fed that was going to let them hold zero reserves for transactions. No wonder the stock of both firms sold off yesterday when Congress rejected the plan: Goldman closed down 12 per cent; Morgan down 15 per cent.

The Trojan Horse in the bailout plan also solves the mystery of how loss-riddled, serially corrupt Citigroup, now run by the former head of a hedge fund, was allowed by the FDIC yesterday to buy $400 Billion in deposits from Wachovia, giving this crippled global tyrant 30 per cent of insured bank deposits in America.

For once, we can be proud of at least 228 members of our Congress. Yes, we do need swift, reasoned action to stave off a financial collapse. But a plan that allows one man to have unfettered access to $700 billion of taxpayer money, decide which firms survive, to potentially concentrate power in a few crony hands, while pushing off even a discussion of vital regulation until next year, is not a plan. It's organized crime thinly disguised as legislation.

excerpted from Pam Martens @ Counterpunch

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