Uh oh. The Mukluk Messiah better pony up them returns.

What are the Vegas odds on her filing amended returns to correct some "mistakes"?

1 in 4.
About the same as her becoming POTUS is McCain's elected.

is = if

I'll be watching this carefully. Whatever the outcome, I want the Governor Palin decision for my clients.

Doc, taxprof is one of my favorite sites, naturally. Glad to see others take an interest in it.

You might need to tip your hat to the 'GOOGLES' TM.

That's how I got to that site as well.

Are people really supposed to pay income taxes on per diem or is this some kind of special case? I've never heard of anyone reporting per diem as income before.

When did per diem become taxable income? I know for a fact it was not about 15 years ago.

Goat, from taxprof:

It does not appear that such deductions would have been allowable for any amounts attributable to travel by her husband and children. Section 274(m)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code strictly forbids deductions for bringing spouses and dependents along on business travel unless the spouses and dependents (a) are employees of the taxpayer (here, the taxpayer is the governor), (b) are travelling for a bona fide business purpose, and (c) would otherwise be entitled to deduct the travel on their own tax returns. Unless Palin's spouse and kids are also her employees and she can show that they were away on their own businesses, their expenses would not be deductible by the governor. And therefore she cannot exclude from income any per diems attributable to any of them. (By the way, since she's the employee, the income would be required to be reported on her own return, not her kids'.)

As for her own travel, Palin could also run into tax problems. Only travel "away from home" qualifies for tax exclusion (or deduction), and for this purpose, one's "home" is generally the principal place of one's business. In this case, the governor reportedly works out of offices in both Anchorage and Juneau, but since she has only one state job, she can declare only one of those as her tax "home." If Juneau is her tax "home" (which would seem to be the case, since that's the capital), she cannot exclude or deduct meals and lodging expenses incurred in Juneau, and if Anchorage is her tax "home," she cannot exclude or deduct such expenses incurred in Anchorage or Wasilla. If she got per diem reimbursements for stays in both places, stays in only one place would appear to be excludible or deductible. And perhaps more importantly, the cost of regular commuting between one's residence and one's tax "home" is not deductible at all, no matter how long the distance between them; it is certainly possible that Palin's treks between the two locales are simply long-distance commuting for tax purposes.

"Are people really supposed to pay income taxes on per diem"

You're going to love this answer:
It depends.
On stuff.
See the taxprof link above at #5, which cites the bojack link.

What Taxman just said.

Biden is awfully generous when it comes to documents he knows will contain nothing but legit information. I wonder how he'd feel about releasing any and all communications with his son's lobbying firm and/or MBNA, the credit powerhouse he benefited with laws he pushed for in the senate?

Joe, did you see how little Biden reports as charitable contributions? Either he is a cheaper than the average American or he isn't reporting all of his charitable contributions.

You investsigate that, Joe, and don't forget to get back to us when you're finished, okay?

Thanks, taxman, I appreciate the time you spent to get that response, but I asked about per diem. What does this blurb about deductions have to do with that?

You're going to love this answer:
It depends.
On stuff.
See the taxprof link above at #5, which cites the bojack link.

That site doesn't say anything relevant about per diem, either. It also focuses on deductions.

I'm beginning to think that per diem isn't an issue, but the deductions are. If so, why can't anyone come out and say it?

"did you see how little Biden reports as charitable contributions?"

Doesn't surprise me, Obama's a cheapskate when it comes to that as well. I guess as a liberal you can count on the government to do all your charity work for you, rather than give to private charity yourself.

"If so, why can't anyone come out and say it?"

See #11 | Posted by taxman at 2008-09-12 02:33 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e_INFORMATIVE above.

If the per diem is a reimbursement than it is not subject to tax as income.

However, these per diems do not appear to be reimbursing anything. They are just added pay which is taxable income.

"Per diem" allowances received by an employee can legally be omitted from her gross income if they constitute reimbursements for amounts that the employee could have deducted as business expenses had the employee paid for them out-of-pocket and not been reimbursed. Thus, for Palin, the tax question would appear to boil down to whether, had she not been reimbursed for the $60,441 of travel, meals, and lodging expenses, she could have legitimately taken business deductions for them.

depending upon the daily per diem rates for alaska and how long she had to find a permanent residence would be the key.

for instance, let's say the maximum per diem rate is $250 per day and she had three months to find a permanent residence (outside a rental) - and she found or built a new residence in the 90 days - she would be entitled to $22,500 - the difference between that and what she actually spent would be her non-taxable amount minus what she received. if they only spent $20,000 awaiting her new residence, she would have to claim the $2,500 as taxable income or return it to the state (more than likely).

the rates for meals, lodging and incidentals vary widely from state to state and from what i know, alaska and hawaii have VERY high per diem rates and cannot even be found in the irs publication 1542.

However, these per diems do not appear to be reimbursing anything

IOW, your opinion. Thank you for it.

Goat I left out the first paragraph:

"Per diem" allowances received by an employee can legally be omitted from her gross income if they constitute reimbursements for amounts that the employee could have deducted as business expenses had the employee paid for them out-of-pocket and not been reimbursed. Thus, for Palin, the tax question would appear to boil down to whether, had she not been reimbursed for the $60,441 of travel, meals, and lodging expenses, she could have legitimately taken business deductions for them.

Joe, the Obamas were above the national average in charitable gifts; Biden wasn't even close.

Thanks for the rest of it taxguy

The governor's daughters and husband charged the state $43,490 to travel, and many of the trips were between their house in Wasilla and Juneau, the capital city 600 miles away, the documents show.

Now that is the change that America needs. Living off the public trough.

"Biden is awfully generous when it comes to documents he knows will contain nothing but legit information. I wonder how he'd feel about releasing any and all communications with his son's lobbying firm and/or MBNA, the credit powerhouse he benefited with laws he pushed for in the senate?"

Yeah, that would be about as relevant as all of the personal documents of McCain's son who is connected to a failed bank. Were you one of those demanding that poor Sarah's family should be left alone?

"Were you one of those demanding that poor Sarah's family should be left alone?"

No. I did, however, demand that Biden get the same treatment. If the children of VP candidates are relevant, then let's take a look at Biden's millionaire lobbyist son - especially since Obama and Biden are supposedly so anti-lobbyist. Proof has come out that Biden pushed for a law that benefited a client of his lobbyist son. I'd say that implicates more than Biden's family, but Biden himself.

But hey, as long as we can see his tax returns, that means he's legit. Right?

"IOW, your opinion."

No, not just opinion. There are some parts which clearly fly in the face of the IRS code.

Section 274(m)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code strictly forbids deductions for bringing spouses and dependents along on business travel unless the spouses and dependents (a) are employees of the taxpayer (here, the taxpayer is the governor), (b) are travelling for a bona fide business purpose, and (c) would otherwise be entitled to deduct the travel on their own tax returns.

"Unless Palin's spouse and kids are also her employees and she can show that they were away on their own businesses, their expenses would not be deductible by the governor. And therefore she cannot exclude from income any per diems attributable to any of them. "

This is not an opinion, and the operative word is and. Add to that the lengthy paper trail required for deductions of employees (employee status, taxes withheld and paid on their behalf, accountable plans), and it's clear: these are not deductible expenses. If Palin were reimbursed anyway, she'll probably have to return the difference.

OTOH, I'd argue families are de facto state employees (the family flying to a family conference is one example) and it's (probably) been handled like this forever. The state obviously believes it's a worthwhile expense, and they could fix the problem by issuing a state credit card to the Gov, and pass their own rules about what it covers. The only time the IRS gets into it is when there are actual checks made out to taxpayers. Circumvent that and you circumvent the problem.

All addressed by Biden last Sunday in the Press Joe.

Biden has been very open about it.

"All addressed by Biden last Sunday in the Press Joe."

I too watched the interview, and he did address it quite clearly.

OTOH, I'd argue families are de facto state employees (the family flying to a family conference is one example) and it's (probably) been handled like this forever.

I doubt the IRS would see it that way.

From my experience they treat family travel paid for by the employer as a taxable fringe.

OTOH, I'd argue families are de facto state employees (the family flying to a family conference is one example) and it's (probably) been handled like this forever.

I doubt the IRS would see it that way.

From my experience they treat family travel paid for by the employer as a taxable fringe.

Regarding per diems, it depends whether the IRS views Wasilla as "out of town" from Juneau, and which town is considered her "tax home". If she claimed p/d in all three places (J, W, & Anchorage), something's got to give.

"I doubt the IRS would see it that way."

You're probably right, but it's pretty idiotic that if Alaska's choice was to issue her a travel card for herself and her family, and the state paid directly instead of filtering it through employee reimbursements, none of it would matter. The IRS won't question a state's reimbursement policies, as long as it's an accountable plan and it falls within the per diem limits. All Alaska would have to do is issue the card and say 'the family's travel serves a state interest'. Game over.

Doesn't surprise me, Obama's a cheapskate when it comes to that as well. I guess as a liberal you can count on the government to do all your charity work for you, rather than give to private charity yourself.

#19 | Posted by JOE at 2008-09-12 02:44 PM

what charity does you hero duhbya give to?

depending upon the daily per diem rates for alaska and how long she had to find a permanent residence would be the key.

for instance, let's say the maximum per diem rate is $250 per day and she had three months to find a permanent residence (outside a rental) - and she found or built a new residence in the 90 days - she would be entitled to $22,500 - the difference between that and what she actually spent would be her non-taxable amount minus what she received. if they only spent $20,000 awaiting her new residence, she would have to claim the $2,500 as taxable income or return it to the state (more than likely).

the rates for meals, lodging and incidentals vary widely from state to state and from what i know, alaska and hawaii have VERY high per diem rates and cannot even be found in the irs publication 1542.

#22 | Posted by nanc at 2008-09-12 02:50 PM

nice cut n paste nanc. it's too lucent to be your own thoughts.

All addressed by Biden last Sunday in the Press Joe.
Biden has been very open about it.

Posted by Manypaths / Flag: Sheep

I too watched the interview, and he did address it quite clearly.

Posted by danni / Flag: Sheep

I'm glad to see that both of you took his word for it with no further question. Here's to that same benefit of the doubt next time there's a scandal as blatant as a politician pushing for laws that benefits their lobbyist son's clients, regardless of political affiliation. Cheers!

I notice a lot of comments on Biden's lack of giving to charities. Has anyone thought that maybe he just isn't using it to reduce his taxes?

Example: My mom gives money to the church. She gives 10%. She's also allowed by law to deduct it from her taxes. She doesn't.

From what I saw in the taxes for 2007, it looks like he's just filing a standard form.

"The bill that you are pissing yourself about was passed by 85 members of the Senate.

So what? Biden was one of its first supporters. And those other 84 people didn't all have lobbyist sons who were employed by the prime beneficiary of the law.

Like I said, it's encouraging to see you believe every word Biden says without ever questioning such blatant abuses of our political system any further. I look forward to the same level of trust any time some other politician goes on TV to do damage control.

Gosh darn it! Per diem is not taxable. Many were so hoping like this reporter to raise another stink. Bummer.

They will get their smear. Just have to keep trying.

Obama started donating recently after he thought about running for president. John Kerry never has made a donation. Hmmm a pattern here?

I just love that Obama was giving crap to Mccain about owning to many houses, when he himself is living in a million dollar home. I mean come on its like two rich people fighting about who's pool bigger.

"depending upon the daily per diem rates for alaska and how long she had to find a permanent residence would be the key."

Totally false. A taxpayer does NOT get to deduct per diem while house-hunting. They get lodging for up to 30 days, based on the actual receipts and subject to IRS limitations.

'for instance, let's say the maximum per diem rate is $250 per day and she had three months to find a permanent residence (outside a rental) - and she found or built a new residence in the 90 days - she would be entitled to $22,500"

No, she wouldn't...at least not according to IRS rules.

"the difference between that and what she actually spent would be her non-taxable amount minus what she received. if they only spent $20,000 awaiting her new residence, she would have to claim the $2,500 as taxable income or return it to the state (more than likely)."

Again, totally wrong. If she WAS in an actual per diem situation, she wouldn't have to return a cent using that scenario. What you're describing is a voucher system, where someone is fronted the money, and must return with either receipts or the excess cash.

Danni you are whacked as usual. The small bank's failure had nothing to do with John McCain's son, and it is soooo far removed from this retort...it's just proves what a hack you ARE.

This is about Joe Biden, and his abysmal record of being a cheap skate. Typical Dem mentality, they will do a good job of taking our money and giving it away for us....

So Joe B gets a tiny slice of media's attention, while they spend the REST of their time on Gov. Palin.
The average voter is finally getting the message, the media IS biased....as per Mark Penn

Another day, another attempt to trash Mrs. Palin.

Please keep it up. You Liberals have turned the election into a race between the inexperienced empty suit from Illinois, and the governor of a state, who is also a girl.

Please, keep it up.

Just for accuracy, I want to repeat that John McCain is an awful choice. Almost as awful as Osama.

My primary interest is gloating after the election, and making all the self-righteous, hollier-than-thou Liberals feel bad.

Please, keep poking at Mrs. Palin. Your nation needs you.

what charity does you hero duhbya give to?

#37 | Posted by hillbillydeluxe at 2008-09-12 04:13 PM | Reply

George W. Bush gives 12 percent of his income to PRIVATE charity. It's listed on his income tax returns and statements. It also exceeds the biblical standard.

You are probably too stoopid to remember as far back as four years ago (let alone eight years) but Algore and John Kerry give ZERO to private charity. Americans are the most generous in the world, but they do so privately (not through the government) and mostly through Christian organizations.

Joe, the Obamas were above the national average in charitable gifts; Biden wasn't even close.

#25 | Posted by taxman at 2008-09-12 03:00 PM |

Dollar amount or percentage?

Biden is a fucking cheapskate.

He is great at givng your money away but will not give any of his.

The again I doubt may people in here give to charity. You have to have a job first.

may = many

"and John Kerry give ZERO to private charity."

Posted by someone who hasn't a clue about the Income Tax Code, and at what level of income itemized deductions get reduced and then eliminated.

I have clients who could give an additional $10,000 a year to charity, and it wouldn't help their tax return by a single penny. And there are LOTS of good reasons not to take particular deductions.

I thought the Dem party was the party of giving......biden is a complete loser