I can't believe McCain wasn't tortured in 'Nam. What liars!

According to the Bush administration's definition of torture, McCain was therefore not tortured

Ha! Talk about yer tortured logic!

FF fer the article.

Good eye, Betel Guy!

Be Well.

LOL. Fucking rightwingers don't care. they will lie about anything if they think it might help them win.

Why has the liberal media failed to inform us of this! McCain has been lying all along. He wasn't "tortured" in Vietnam. He was merely subjected to "enhanced interrogation" in the official hope that they could stop the next bombs.

It's all good.

Good weekend to you all, and gObama!

Everyone totures, if it was your children you were saving, you would toruture too....To Torture is to live.

It's our nature, quit crying about it and learn to love the bomb.

And here lately I was starting to think that Moder wasnt such an asshole after all. Clearly I was wrong.

"May your shit come to life and kiss you on the face."

And here lately I was starting to think that Moder wasnt such an asshole after all. Clearly I was wrong.

Posted by sickoflibs

Friday nite poker & beers don't work for him like they used to...perhaps?:>)

"quit crying about it and learn to love the bomb."

Posted by gibberingloon

They got a thrill when the depleted uranium fissioned.

I just discovered a brand new form of torture - reading you guys crap. I should get a medal.

The Russians retaliate.

So his arms don't go above his shoulders is not torture.

riiiiiiiight...

And then you all woke up.

Fe, Fe, and Ni.

We were born from nuclear fisson Zat, I can't think of a better way to die. We are children of the sun, ashes to ashes; fission to fission. I would rather go out there then in my bed sleeping.

Fe, Fi, Ne*

Maybe somebody just shook his hand too hard.

...

No wait. That was Cindy.

Murphy-
What was done to McCain that you would consider torture if it was done to our enemies by us?

(Just one method/tactic, for starters -if you can name one...)

Gibbering-
Odds are you wouldn't go out in a flash, but in months of agony, with the surviving witnesses to the awful scene concealing your pitiful cries for death from your loved ones, at least those who might have missed the play by play.

"We were born from nuclear fisson(sic) Zat"

I'm more a fusion kinda guy.

Really just a photographer.

solo

"So his arms don't go above his shoulders is not torture.
riiiiiiiight... And then you all woke up."

Don't look now, Murphy, but you just proved the opposition's point.

So his arms don't go above his shoulders is not torture.

riiiiiiiight...

And then you all woke up.

Posted by MURPHY at 2008-08-22 11:36 PM

That would be from being dragged thru the mud by the bush camp back in 2000!

Betel--

McCain had both arms broken and accounts being beaten most every day. He walks with a limp from being tortured and beaten.

Club Gitmo gets soccer and rice pilaf under mango chicken.

Why are you and others also so quick to put down America? Or take the side of our enemies?

Why even ask this question?

Now back to the cable since the messiah is speaking and I want to see if Joe has a halo ---

Posted by MURPHY at 2008-08-23 03:06 PM | Reply

It is you who has taken the side of our enemies by justifying the indefensible, just as they do.

"In all the discussion of John McCain's recently recovered memory of a religious epiphany in Vietnam, one thing has been missing. The torture that was deployed against McCain emerges in all the various accounts. It involved sleep deprivation, the withholding of medical treatment, stress positions, long-time standing, and beating. Sound familiar?

According to the Bush administration's definition of torture, McCain was therefore not tortured."

That is all very effective when done with persistant questioning. I saw a movie done up by Military with Robert Reed (Brady Bunch) being questioned by a professional interogator and after only 2 days or so of the above, Robert Reed confessed to things in his childhood and early life that shamed him so that the interogator was able to use that shame to get the 5 pieces of intel that Robert Reed was supposed to protect.

It is very effective -- but no waterboarding.

What about the physical pain of the broken arms that was never taken care of? I doubt if any of you have suffered that kind of pain for any length of time. You were probably looking for percadin way before John McCain broke.

You don't know what he went through and look at him now. He deserves everyone's respect here not ridicule. He never took the easy way home. Every person there kept their faith with John McCain and it shows what military people are about.

"He never took the easy way home."

Until he started running for the 2008 nomination. Then "The Maverick" morphed into "McBush", to placate the primary voters.

"You don't know what he went through and look at him now. He deserves everyone's respect here not ridicule. He never took the easy way home. Every person there kept their faith with John McCain and it shows what military people are about."

Really now? His wife kept the faith organized POWs support while he was imprisoned. How did he return the favor? Cheated on her, divorced, then remarried.

So shut the fuck up about glamorizing McCain's imprisonment. It's not something he really had a choice about except that he was a poor officer and pilot. Cheating on and then dumping his wife for a better option was.

"Then "The Maverick" morphed into "McBush", to placate the primary voters."

Still at it, eh Danny? Say, did you ever give up on that crazy "wet start" theory where you blamed McCain for the fire and those deaths on the Forrestal? You simply MUST quit relying on Huffington, MoveOn and DailyKos for your "facts," Danny...like this account.

"Say, did you ever give up on that crazy "wet start" theory where you blamed McCain for the fire and those deaths on the Forrestal?"

Old man, you're either losing it or lost it. I've never posted a single consonant regarding the Forrestal.

Who are you confusing me with this time?

And if you don't realize all the position changes by the former "maverick", from torture to tax cuts to tolerance, your head is in the sand.

Which may explain your overall confusion.

Although, wet start or not, I'm not sure 5 crashes in 20 hours of flight time is someone I'd want piloting the Ship of State.

?Although, wet start or not, I'm not sure 5 crashes in 20 hours of flight time is someone I'd want piloting the Ship of State."

I think he had slightly more than 20 hours of flight time, Danny. One of those was the one that burned on the Forrestal and another was brought down by a SAM. You counting those two? The only one he was held responsible for was the one that he flew into high tension wires. You're really stretchin', boy. I told you to keep away from Dan Rather and those weird liberal sites.

Besides, I don't think he's gonna be required to fly any sorties as president...do you?

Question...since Biden has assumed the role of head apostle, is TonyRoma gonna lose his position? Does Nancy Pelosi think Biden is sent by God also?

"I think he had slightly more than 20 hours of flight time"

Sorry, 20 hours of combat.

Now, who were you confusing me with, old man, or are those voices in your head still at it?

So his arms don't go above his shoulders is not torture.

riiiiiiiight...

And then you all woke up.

Posted by MURPHY

That's from when he broke bones hitting the canopy after a botched ejection over Vietnam.

Murphy, please read some facts before posting.

"I think he had slightly more than 20 hours of flight time"

Sorry, 20 hours of combat.

Now, who were you confusing me with, old man, or are those voices in your head still at it?

Posted by Danforth at 2008-08-23 05:33 PM

Only one of McCain's jet crashes were while flying in combat. The other four crashes were either in training or non-combat military flights. You are correct about the 20 hours flight time during combat. He flew 23 missions in roughly 20 hours flight time.

Can you tell me, though, how the man earned ALL these awards in only 20 hours of combat???

...For 23 combat missions (an estimated 20 hours over enemy territory), the U.S. Navy awarded McCain a Silver Star, a Legion of Merit for Valor, a Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Stars, two Commendation medals plus two Purple Hearts and a dozen service medals.

"McCain had roughly 20 hours in combat,"..."Since McCain got 28 medals," Bell continues, "that equals out to about a medal-and-a-half for each hour he spent in combat.... The question really is how many guys got that number of medals for not being shot down."

forgot an important word in my sentence -

Can you tell me, though, how the man earned ALL these awards in
only 20 hours of combat flying time???

There's a difference of course between flying in combat verses actual on the ground combat. Not to dispute his right to the medals nor cast doubt on his military record but how many other fighter pilots received that many medals for 20 hours of air combat? Did McCain shoot down any enemy planes? If he had maybe that answers why. If he never shot down any enemy planes I sure wonder how it added up to him receiving so many citations and medals. Any fly boys around who might be able to answer this for me?

I understand the sarcasm in this story about comparing McCain's torture to what the Bush Admin says is "not torture by definition" etc. etc.

But I don't think anyone should ever question the degree or suffering McCain obviously went through during his time as a POW in 'Nam. It's not something to diminish or make jokes about. McCain can't even raise his arms above his head due to them having been broken while imprisoned.

I still remember the total disgust I felt when watching the televised 20004 Republican Convention when a number of the delegates had "Purple Heart" fake tattoos painted on their faces and arms to mock Purple Hearts earned by John Kerry when he was wounded in Viet Nam. I hope no one ever sinks to that level with regard to McCain's injuries. Good taste has its boundaries. No one should cross them solely for political shock value or political gain. They only cheapen themselves.

20004 = 2004

CC- I don't question the suffering McCain went through. I doubt betel does either.

Consider this: McCain peddling himself as the next W and voting with him 95% of the time(even on torture) questions his suffering. He's shooting himself in the foot.

McCain's 'can't get his arms above his head' injuries occurred as a result of a botched ejection over North Vietnam - not torture.

CC

I have a buddy who was a Navy pilot shot down over N. Vietnam. He got nowhere near that many medals. But, his dad wasn't an Admiral commanding U.S. forces in Vietnam at the time either.

Alexandrite -- good point.

And I'm well aware McCain has now flip-flopped entirely and landed solidly in the Bush camp.

I actually voted for McCain in the 2000 primary. I did want him to win the Presidency.
I was a McCainiac and proud of it. How naive I was back in 2000. I even believe GWB would be a good President. My rose-colored glasses sure came off in a hurry.

I actually voted for McCain in the 2000 primary. I did want him to win the Presidency.

Ditto. I feel pretty dumb that I voted for a man who took the sliming he did in 2000...

And sold out for naked ambition so easily to the bastards that hurt him. W and crew hurt McCain worse in that campaign than the cong ever did.

AU

My Dad flew combat over North Korea in the Korean War. He earned an Air Medal and two gold stars (in lieu of two additional Air Medals). I have his original commendation papers and it states "while flying in hostile territory with enemy combat." Those were the days of pre-jet age Corsairs -- when you literally flew by the seat of your pants. I still have his worn leather flight glove.

just an fyi -- I also have my Dad's map of North and South Korea which was printed on a large silk scarf! Fighter pilots had the N/S Korean map printed on to silk rather than on to paper on purpose so that if the pilots ever had to force a landing (or crash land) they would be able to tie the silk scarf map on to their body and not lose it. The map would also not blur if it got wet or covered with mud as a map on paper would easily do.

Same thing CC and Alexandrite (re: McCain 2000).

BTW, Ted Sampley (the same one from the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth) is out for blood on McCain. It's funny, in an odd way. The man that was a hero to "the Right" for blasting Kerry, lying about him, denigrating his service - was treated as the bearer of Truth.

I wonder what they (the 'right') thinks now?

Ted Sampley, a Vietnam Veteran and former Green Beret, issued a CHALLENGE to John McCain "If you can show us that the information presented in our mailer is untruthful . . . we will Stand Down"

This CHALLENGE was issued during an interview with INSIDE EDITION on January 17, 2008.

John, family members of Vietnam POW/MIA(s) have been waiting for more then 14 years for you to have the courage to face them eye to eye in front of the American Public - Here is your opportunity for some "STRAIGHT TALK." Stop hiding behind your fabricated "War Hero" persona. You know we can prove your collaborations with declassified government documents . . . It is time for the American people to get to know the REAL John McCain - the John McCain that the POW/MIA families witnessed during the 1991-93 US Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs.

Alexandrite

. W and crew hurt McCain worse in that campaign than the cong ever did.

How right you are. In fact, when I was debating McCain with OBSERVER22 and got a link for him from an article deriding McCain for his five jet crashes do you know where I found it? On Google which linked me to a year 2000 hit piece on McCain in the "Free Republic" blog! It took me by surprise for a second to see it was in FR and then I remembered how the Republicans were tearing McCain to shreds on his military service back in the 2000 election.

It's sickening that McCain has bent over and grabbed his ankles for Bush after the slimy way Bush attacked McCain's family (his wife and adopted daughter) and also McCain's military service. Has McCain no honor, no pride? I'd never talk to Bush again if I were McCain. Looks like McCain can be bought for the right price.

CC

If you ever get down this way I'll show you the silk map that rests in the little military shrine set up in the dining room

:-)

CC-
re: "But I don't think anyone should ever question the degree or suffering McCain obviously went through during his time as a POW in 'Nam."

Just to be clear, I don't. Bush and company do by arguing that the very same treatment McCain was subjected to is not torture when we do it.

"But I don't think anyone should ever question the degree or suffering McCain obviously went through during his time as a POW in 'Nam."

Why not?

He lied about the cross incident.

He's overly-relying on his former PoW status in his campaigning so in truth McCain himself has brought the story and it's veracity into play here.

There are enuff wildly differing accounts of wot McCain's time as a PoW consisted of to make the question a legitimate one.

To not question whether or not McCain made up or embellished large parts of his official story is to be hopelessly naive.

Be Well.

Dethspud-
Whether or not what McCain endured constitutes torture is not a legitimate question, which was the whole point of this blog entry.

(just to be clear)

Whether or not what McCain claims to have endured constitutes torture is not a legitimate question, which was the whole point of this blog entry

FTFY.

Spud gets the point of the article.

That the type of torture practised by the Viet Cong back in 'Nam is eerily similar to the "enhanced interrogation techniques" that are deemed "not torture" by the tortured logic of BushCo today.

The same torture that McCain at first decried and then later voted for.

The irony and hypocrisy are overwhelming.

Got that.

That all sed, Spud thinks McCain has embellished his experiences as a POW fer decades and white-washed a lot of it as well.

Now he's making it a centerpiece of his campaign and Spud is call shenanigans.

That's all.

Be Well.

Why not?

He lied about the cross incident.

I lived next door to a family whose head of household was a POW in VN. I did not meet him for 6 years (he was already captured when we moved there). When he was released, he reluctantly told stories of the horrible torture he went through. IN fact, after having heard John McCain's stories the last year, I'm fairly certain these two would have known each other in VN.

I would imagine that John McCain was treated the same as my neighbor. I am not so easy as to blow it off as you, spud because of lie about a cross.

So if we discount politioians because of their lying, there goes your golden boy plagarist

Shit. I forget. This is the DR. Different rules for different parties. My bad. McCain lying = bad. Biden lying = no big deal.

Carry on, sheeple

"McCain lying = bad. Biden lying = no big deal."

Versus Goatman's reverse position.

CC

If you ever get down this way I'll show you the silk map that rests in the little military shrine set up in the dining room
:-)

Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2008-08-23 11:14 PM

What's the story behind it?

Versus Goatman's reverse position.

???

When have I ever dismissed a politician's (or anyone's) lying?

Fucking knee jerk jerk

"When have I ever dismissed a politician's (or anyone's) lying?"

So when the issue of Biden's plagarism comes up, will you be defending Biden, or bringing up McCain's gaffes as well?

So when the issue of Biden's plagarism comes up, will you be defending Biden,

I guess I wasn't clear. My bad. I defend no one's lies. I never have, I never will.

One of those was the one that burned on the Forrestal and another was brought down by a SAM. You counting those two?

Well, since he started the Forrestal fire....

Make sure you liberals keep talking shit about a hero like John McCain--you'll keep losing presidential elections.

McCain and conservatives with a conscience stood against torture the entire time.