The IOC has already said they will not investigate this.

Cheating at the Olympics?!

I am shocked, just shocked.

I feel so dirty now.

I feel so dirty now.

Those chicks look totally weird, regardless of how old they are.

I feel so dirty now.

Posted by shirtsbyeric

That's what you get for lowering your masterbatory standards down to 16.

That such an upstanding government such as China would lie to the world is unthinkable. Anyone that says aloud different will get a visit from the Chinese spy folks with baseball bats for use in improving your out look. Legs heal.

I don't see that much of a problem with kids under 16 in the Olympics I hate that out-and-out professional athletes are allowed to compete nowadays. The Olympics was meant to be an amateur showcase and the pros have enough venues to strut their stuff in as it is.

I hate that out-and-out professional athletes are allowed to compete nowadays

I'm 100% with that. As you said, the olympics were always meant for the amateurs, not the pros. They've got their big salaries. Let the amateurs have their one day in the sun every four years.

I don't see that much of a problem with kids under 16 in the Olympics I hate that out-and-out professional athletes are allowed to compete nowadays. The Olympics was meant to be an amateur showcase and the pros have enough venues to strut their stuff in as it is.

Posted by Gimme_a_Scotch

this

Why wouldn't the IOC look in to this if it's as cut and dry as it appears to be from the Yahoo article?

I personally don't see why the rule is in place. If a six year old is the best gymnast in the world then let her compete. I suppose the rule is in place to protect younger kids from over training but China is going to totally control its young gymnasts from the age of 3 even if you make the competition age 21. Its a horrible government run by horrible people and nothing the IOC does will change that.

Having said that, there is no sense in having rules if you let some people blatantly break them. If you let this slide then don't take medals away for doping either.

"Why wouldn't the IOC look in to this if it's as cut and dry as it appears to be from the Yahoo article?"

Because they have another few weeks left in China and they want to get out alive.

"Why wouldn't the IOC look in to this if it's as cut and dry as it appears to be from the Yahoo article?

Posted by 101Chairborne"

Because China is now the 800 pound gorilla in international sports, and the IOC and IGF are too wimpy to risk upsetting them, IMO.

Because they don't want the Olympics as a whole to have a "black mark" on it. They don't want people calling for someone to give up their medals. They don't want controversy.

Basically, the same reason the NFL buried the Patriots controversy. Obviously wrong, but too much a moneyloser to make a big deal out of.

"Because China is now the 800 pound gorilla in international sports, and the IOC and IGF are too wimpy to risk upsetting them, IMO."

You could have stopped at "international".

"Because they don't want the Olympics as a whole to have a "black mark" on it. They don't want people calling for someone to give up their medals. They don't want controversy."

I think you're right, but I believe that's very sad. The Olympics should be above all of it; "face" be damned.

I agree that it is sad. If anything the Olympics would have more integrity in my eyes if they actually enforced their rules.

Honestly, between Joe, SA, and Sully, I couldn't pick out who is more right.

There is a British diver aged 14 years. So what's the problem here? And how exactly is having an "underage" athlete an advantage? This ain't chimney sweeping, it is an exercise in strength, agility, and composure that requires years of training everyday.

That such an upstanding government such as China would lie to the world is unthinkable.

^^Mindless China bashing with no evidence, logic, or the need for either. I doubt the Chinese Primer is bothered with picking the lads that will perform the highbars. If this girl really is "underage" it is the fault of her, her parents, and most importantly her coach. If this brings -rep to the Chinese Olympic Committee you can rest assured the Chinese government will come down on the guilty parties like a sack of bricks.

The Olympics suck. Outdated...........

The reason that there are minimum age restrictions in women's gymnastics is the strength-to-weight ratio. It would be unfair to allow a 60lb 10-year-old to compete against a 110lb 16-year-old. It's why you rarely see a gymnast over 20 in international competition. Once their bodies begin to mature and fill out, they become too heavy to perform at the same level as they did just a few years earlier--regardless of how much training they do.

The IOC is covering up many stories from these Olympics. Wait'll the story gets out about athletes being served Schezwan Schnauzer and Mongolian Tabby.

"And how exactly is having an "underage" athlete an advantage? This ain't chimney sweeping, it is an exercise in strength, agility, and composure that requires years of training everyday."

Gymnasts have a very short window in which they can compete at the Olympic level. You'll almost never see a gymnast who's over the age of 20. Mary Lou Retton only competed on a national stage from 1983 to 1985. Shannon Miller's career started in 1989 and finished in 1997 - she only ever competed in the 1996 Olympics.

For other Olympic sports, then age isn't as big of an issue. But gymnasts at the age of 23 or 24 simply aren't able to match the flexibility and agility of a gymnast at the age of 16 or 17.

Woo grammar errors.

That's what you get for lowering your masterbatory standards down to 16.

Posted by Lipzoidial

You guys have materbatory standards?

"I doubt the Chinese Primer is bothered with picking the lads that will perform the highbars. I

Posted by r8rh8r"

I think you misunderestimate the emphasis placed on sports by the Chinese government.

Much like in the old Soviet Union and East Germany, sports is an integral part of national pride and unity, and is symbolic that their system of government is superior.

In the distant past, such rules were hard and fast. If an athlete broke a rule ie took money or the age question, they were ousted.

Now with so much a stake, it seems that money has become the prime consideration.

Drugs seem to be the only real cut and dried rule. Now you can make all of the money you can get. I'll agree with the drug issue but find myself in agreement with allowing the athletes to receive money from sorses other than prize money. That is no direct pay check for just working at their sport. Track athletes have gotten "appearance" money for many years but this is certain to spread byond track. In the winter Olympics the prize is a trophy and the "appearance" money huge.

It seems doubtful that we will see a three hundred pound woman shot putter female with a five o'clock shadow making the big bucks.

It would be unfair to allow a 60lb 10-year-old to compete against a 110lb 16-year-old.

So explain how a curvy college girl won gold over a hobbit and stick figure last night.

If this is true this is cheating and calls for the girls scores in the team competition to be disqualified.

The US Team would have the Gold Medal.

Posts above about the strength and flexibility are correct. They can keep the same weight within 10-20 pounds--but their bones are not the same.

If the rule is broken for the age--it is the same as breaking the rule on steroids.

"So explain how a curvy college girl won gold over a hobbit and stick figure last night.

Posted by r8rh8r"

Three girls sitting at the bar.
A curvy college girl, a hobbit, and a stick figure.

hmmmm. Which one do I want?

"hmmmm. Which one do I want?

Posted by Petrous"

Hobbit?

r8...perhaps she was the better gymnast?

So explain how a curvy college girl won gold over a hobbit and stick figure last night.
Posted by r8rh8r

Because even with their advantage, they still didn't perform as well as the Americans. However, that still doesn't mean they didn't have an advantage, as they were able to perform more difficult routines due to their "underage"-ness.

I think you misunderestimate the emphasis placed on sports by the Chinese government.

Yeah, so much emphasis they are still getting their ass handed to them by a country with 1/3 the population. If I have learned anything from these Olympics about China it is they will stop at no end to enhance their image to the world. Cheating, or even the implication of cheating, would tarnish that image and these games. If the government is overseeing the selection process of athletes I would think they would chose the most image friendly contestant.
Blaming the Chinese government for this is like blaming Bush if Phelps turns out to be a doper.

"Yeah, so much emphasis they are still getting their ass handed to them by a country with 1/3 the population."

And, "by getting their ass handed to them", you mean trailing in total medals by 5 medals, but leading in gold medals by 12?

"Yeah, so much emphasis they are still getting their ass handed to them by a country with 1/3 the population."

Isn't China still kicking the US's ass in the number of gold medals earned?

Isn't China still kicking the US's ass in the number of gold medals earned?

Track and field starts today, the US will have a double digit lead by Monday. If you disagree I'll give you 10-1 on your money.

"Track and field starts today, the US will have a double digit lead by Monday. If you disagree I'll give you 10-1 on your money.

Posted by r8rh8r"

Ah, but you said we ARE kicking their ass, not that we have a CHANCE to kick their ass.

And much as I hate to say it, I believe this will be the last Olympics where we even have a legitimate chance to take the most medals.

"Blaming the Chinese government for this is like blaming Bush if Phelps turns out to be a doper."
Posted by r8rh8r at 2008-08-15 12:30 PM | Reply

Well, OF COURSE they would blame Bush for that; you're new to this board, aren't you? I can't figure out why they haven't blamed Bush for THIS yet.

Blaming the Chinese government for this is like blaming Bush if Phelps turns out to be a doper.
Posted by r8rh8r

Except Bush and the US government have nothing to do with selecting athletes or training them. China has what is known as a state sponsered athletic program. That means the government selects athletes, trains them, supports them, endorses them, and signs them up for the Olympics. All coaches are part of this program. Blaming the Chinese gov't for this is appropriate as it was the Chinese gov't who approved the underage gymnasts for the Olympics.

China has what is known as a state sponsered athletic program.

"LOL. US Olympic Committe grants were in excess of 51 million dollars in 2007."

Which US athletes were identified by government-paid coaches and trainers at the age of 3-6, taken from their families and housed full-time in government-sponsored training centers to develop their full potential in a sport for which they show an aptitude?

By the way, your link to the USOC tax return lists $51 million from public donations and sources, but $0 from government contributions or grants.

That means the government selects athletes, trains them, supports them, endorses them, and signs them up for the Olympics.

BZZZZT

No. The Chinese government creates a committee to run its Olympic program, funds it and staffs it with coaches who select athletes.....just like we do.

Do you really think some Chinese government bureaucrat is mulling over water polo tape and telling the coach who to start in central defence?

what if the shoe was on the other foot and USA had the 13 year old? cries of treason! international conspiracy! TMZ and the tabloids would be salivating all over themselves...

Hats Off to the kid, 13? that is incredible!

According to the USOC website, they don't receive any funding from the government. All revenues are from broadcasting, licensing, ticketing, and corporate sponsorships.

R8,
I was with you on Phelps, but I think you're dead wrong here. The Chinese take children from their homes and basically immerse them in sport.
NBC said as much on the broadcast and I know they aren't going to be accused of an anti-china bias.

Do you really think some Chinese government bureaucrat is mulling over water polo tape and telling the coach who to start in central defence?
Posted by r8rh8r

Actually...yes

Do you really think some Chinese government bureaucrat is mulling over some Opening Ceremony's practice and telling the organizers to switch out the buck tooth 7 year old for a non-buck tooth 9 year old? Oh, wait, that really happened...

By the way, your link to the USOC tax return lists $51 million from public donations and sources, but $0 from government contributions or grants.

Yeah, youre right. After some digging it looks like most of the operation money comes from NBC, and the USOC is in some financial hot water. Over 100 million in the hole largely due to huge salaries, waste, and non-Olympic expenses.

Also, the Chinese government's Minister of Sport is Mr. Liu Peng.

I'm pretty sure we don't have a Cabinet-level position equivalent.

The Chinese take children from their homes and basically immerse them in sport.

Freddy Adu was "taken from his home" in Africa, his birth certificate faked, and thrown into the MLS and the US National team. He has been a professional footballer since age "13". He was sold to a Spanish club for 1 million dollars a few months ago, MLS got the money.

But the thing is these kids want to become athletes. Adu wants to play football. And in football or the Olympics if you expect to be great you had better start early. In America these kids are shuffled off to some "soccer camp" or University to work with professional coaches for months/years.

I watched the womens 200m back last night. It was won by a Zimbabwean who beat an American, they were roommates at Auburn.

BTW I have no problem with kids going to athletic training at young ages. I got no problem with America or any other country identifying and wooing phenoms across their borders. Athletics is serious business to every country and a source of national pride no matter where you live. The Chinese are no different, and America isn't squeaky clean in that regard.

In America these kids are shuffled off to some "soccer camp" or University to work with professional coaches for months/years.
Posted by r8rh8r

All paid for by...?

You see, the difference is that a majority of the US athletes come to the sport on their own (or their parents') initiative. Your 1 example doesn't disprove that. You can't tell me that some girl in rural China decided at the age of three to become a diver/gymnast/swimmer and that her parents were somehow able to scrape enough yuan together to afford training camps, travel expenses, equipment costs, etc. The Chinese government pays for all this! While the USOC may pay for the US to participate in the Olympics, the USOC is not affiliated with the US government (it's a non-profit org). Tell me, how many of Shawn Johnson's classes were provided by the US government? How much has her private sector coach been paid by the government to train her? I'd bet both those numbers are close to, if not actually $0.

I hate that out-and-out professional athletes are allowed to compete nowadays

I'm 100% with that. As you said, the olympics were always meant for the amateurs, not the pros. They've got their big salaries. Let the amateurs have their one day in the sun every four years.

Posted by goatman

The reason those rules were "relaxed" is because Russia and other countries like China were getting around the rules by drafting all olympians into the military and paying them a salary ...while they were never issued uniforms or participated in any drills. they ONLY competed in sport. In other words, our amateurs were facing professionals... just dressed up and disguised professionals.

Doesn't anyone remember 4 years ago??? Nastia was -hands down- the best American women (girl...) gymnast- and probably the best in the world.

Guess what.. she wasn't 16 that year- and couldn't compete in the Olympics!!!!

The fact that she did drop in competitiveness due to injurys- coming in behind Shawn in the past year at several events- and came back to win the gold in these 2008 olympics- is astounding!!

The Chinese cheated.

The medals should be stripped, and China should be banned from the next 3 rounds of International competition (one round for each violating gymnast)

This is pretty black and white....

I'm wicked pissed about this-- you should be too!!

All paid for by...?

So are you worried about the kids' well being, or you just don't like government footing the bill?

When Adu was brought over Bruce Arena was mainly responsible. He was in the front office at D.C. United, the team Freddy eventually played for. But Adu's first practice, his first football match, took place on a US Nat'l team pitch where......Bruce Arena was the MNT coach. Adu and his mother were fast-tracked through immigration and given citizenship by the US Government. Now who paid for that? What does that cost exactly? Does the Immigration Service have a special line for poor jobless African women who can't speak English bringing children under the working age?

So again, are you fanning concern for the kids because you don't want them put into athletic camps at a young age, or because the

wtf

ate my post.....

r8rh8r

I think someone is wrong on DR. Some of my posts end up with parts cut off too.
Don't know what could be causing it.

said "someone" -- but meant to say "something"

First the Olympics, now this forum... Damn you Chinese!

...the Chinese government is paying for the camps? Does it matter that the kids want to compete and are afforded every opportunity? If you don't think government should sponsor these kids and facilitate their training I can find countless examples of that in the US.

Most of these swimmers and track and fielders compete in the NCAA on scholarships. They have world-class coaches and facilities. Who pays for that? The school right... So who pays for the school? The government.
Footballers(both throwball and kick ball) in this country are spotted young, their parents often move to districts with good programs where they are coached in jr and high school by coaches who make 2,3,4 times what a regular teacher makes. Who pays for that?

So if you're against government sponsorship...glass houses and all that. Now, if you think these kids are being exploited, used, forced to compete against their will, yet manage to win dozens of gold medals, I think that is just silly. There in an unwritten rule rarely broken in professional sports; when a player is unhappy he underperforms. That is why players are able to force trades/sells. You can't force someone to dedicate the time, energy, and emotional drive it takes to become an Olympic Champion. The athletes have to want it, really really want it.

Hey China! Thanks for lying! You make me see Red!

Our discussion is based on this post:

"Blaming the Chinese government for this is like blaming Bush if Phelps turns out to be a doper."
Posted by r8rh8r

I showed how this statement was false - because the Chinese government is directly involved in every aspect of the gymnasts' careers, from selection to training. They are directly responsible for the gymnasts being underage. Whether or not they're exploited is another discussion. What is relevant is that because Chinese gymnasts' careers are controlled by the government, that same government is then responsible for enrolling underage gymnasts. Bottom line is that the US government is NOT directly involved in every aspect of our gymnasts' training schedule, funding, and competitions.

"The athletes have to want it, really really want it."
Posted by r8rh8r

H8 to break it to you, but NBC ran a story that 1 of the Chinese gymnasts has wanted to quit the team for over a year now, but due to a sense of loyalty to her country, she's stayed on the team. Not because SHE wants it, but because she feels it's her duty.

"Bottom line is that the US government is NOT directly involved in every aspect of our gymnasts' training schedule, funding, and competitions.

Also, we have a free press, and archives. It would be near impossible to claim a phenom American kid is 16 if there are years and years of press reports as they won local, then regional, then national contests.

she's stayed on the team

..out of loyalty to her teammates and country, not because China was going to send her to a work camp. By her own account she could leave if she wanted to.

It would be near impossible to claim a phenom American kid is 16

Danny Almonte...

If China cheated by upping the ages of their girl gymnasts, and it looks a lot as if they did,
then China should be held accountable and the winners stripped of their medals.

It was reported that on average there was about a 30 pound difference in body weight between the Chinese girls and the American girls and in gymnastists that can easily make the difference between winning a gold medal or ending up in 5th place.

Besides, what does it teach these young Chinese athletes if they are taught by their own government to win at all costs -- even if it means cheating.

gymnastists = gymnastics

p.s. to Gimme_a_Scotch

-- that was an important word so I corrected my typo this time. : )

"not because China was going to send her to a work camp"
Posted by r8rh8r

Never mentioned work camps - I was simply showing that she won the gold out of DUTY, not because, as you put it, she "want[ed] it, really really want[ed] it." The funny thing is, this is even becoming a pattern for Chinese gymnasts. An '00 medallist later admitted she was only 14 yesrs old when she competed.

and it only took 2 weeks of digging to find the truth.

Tell me again why you're so gung ho about allowing the Chinese government and gymnasts a pass for breaking the rules?

They caught him after he had competed, just like this Chinese girl. I'm not for anyone breaking the rules, but I'm kinda skeptical when the team that finished second starts accusing the winning team of cheating after the fact. I also fail to see how being underage provides an advantage, especially since the biggest, oldest girl in the competition won gold last night. And if a diver--which uses a similar skill set--can be 14 why can't female gymnasts?

I think you blind China-bashers are just aching to find something, anything to whine about.

"We didn't win, they must have cheated!" "Their government provides athletes too much support!" "Those poor kids are too young to train." bla bla bla

" I'm kinda skeptical when the team that finished second starts accusing the winning team of cheating after the fact. "

All due respect, they've been saying this for a while.

they've

Who, American gymnasts? The IOC is what matters and they cleared the documentation(I hope).

If China had finished with silver this wouldn't be a story, but now that they have won their passports are suspect.

I also fail to see how being underage provides an advantage,
especially since the biggest, oldest girl in the competition won gold last night.

How big?
How old (or how old were we told she was) ?

And was that winner one of the Chinese gymnasts?

Chris, the hot one, Liukin:

R8RH8R

One of the Chinese girl gymnasts was being bragged about over in China only about 9 months ago as being only 13 years old. The MINIMUM age to participate in the Olympics is 16 years old.

If weight and height can make such a drastic difference when it comes to choosing the right jockey to win a horse race, then why do you so easily dismiss a gymnast's height and weight as being important in order to be competitive in gymnastics?

The US team didn't get it done! Doesn't matter the ages of the other team. If I was beaten by a 14 yr old, then I wouldn't be running around crying about it. I'd instead hide under a rock somewhere.

Seriously...the US team had too many faults, fell off the beam, floor exercise was sloppy...now they are just crying and looking to lay the blame elsewhere. Well, maybe not the team, but others are.

If it is true that China broke the rules, and there is evidence, then yes, they should be stripped of their Gold...it's done all the time in the Olympics. But still...the US no matter what finished second. But Alicia Sacromone is HOT isn't she?

R8RH8R

Chris, the hot one, Liukin:

www.slate.com

hahahaha -- okay, now I can see why you want her to keep the gold.

"The MINIMUM age to participate in the Olympics is 16 years old."

In the Olympic year. The current athletes could be as young as 15yrs, 7 and a half months. For winter games, 15 and a few weeks.

Sorry, we're not talking a difference of only a few months in the gymnasts' ages -- we're talking years.

If China had finished with silver this wouldn't be a story, but now that they have won their passports are suspect.
Posted by r8rh8r

True, but no one pays attention to the doping stats for swimmers or runners who finish in eighth place either. And we're not "blindly" bashing on China (like Danni does :)), we're voicing a legitimate concern that China cheated by using underage athletes in direct violation to the rules. It doesn't matter that YOU don't see the point of the rule, the fact is the rule exists and was broken.

Do you see us whining about the diving competitions even though the US got our butts kicked? Nope, because so far everyting has been legit. We're pissed about gymnastics because everything does NOT seem legitimate.

Gotta run, it's quittin' time! (Yep, I drudge at work...)

"Ditto" to what Bartimus said.

Have a good weekend, Bartimus.

Thanks CalifChris, you too!

Even our dumb Shrub knows not to fuck with China. Probably the only thing he does know.

1. They can't beat a 13 year old?

2. Her feet are 1-3/8 inches in width - a definite advantage on a 4 inch balance beam.

I was with you on Phelps, but I think you're dead wrong here. The Chinese take children from their homes and basically immerse them in sport.
NBC said as much on the broadcast and I know they aren't going to be accused of an anti-china bias.

Posted by 101Chairborne

gee 101 maybe you wouldnt be such a complainer if you didnt get trophies when you lost at bowling and tiddlywinks when you were 6