Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Monday, August 11, 2008

As a Russian jet bombed fields around his village, Georgian farmer Djimali Avago asked, "Why won't America and NATO help us? If they won't help us now, why did we help them in Iraq?" A similar sense of betrayal coursed through the conversations of many Georgians here yesterday as their troops retreated under shellfire and the Russian Army pressed forward to take full control of South Ossetia.

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It's a shame we used up our political capital, goodwill and reputation on Iraq.

The two great wars started in this area, and now it seems the world has not learned from history again!

not to worry, georgia - we'll find ourselves in a similar situation. probably sooner than later.

Please help America! Come and invade us like Irak in this little wag the dog war you have trumped up for your PROBLEM, REACTION, SOLUTION manipulation that you have been using against the people time after time, and they still haven't caught on to it yet.

Let's convene the security council! Oh wait Russia is on the council and has veto power.

That word "appeasement" comes to mind about now. George Bush looked a bit like Neville Chamberlain at the Olympics while his close ally Georgia was being invaded. I think we do have an obligation towards Georgia and macho George seems afraid to recognize that. Next time we build a "Coalition of the Willing" we should either warn them that the alliance is a one-way street or recognize the real threats they face and decide whether we are willing to be a true ally or not. This whole thing makes the US look like a paper tiger.

Tell the Georgians that the USA has too much on it's plate, NATO is a pussy paper tiger, and the UN is the biggest threat to peace in the world. The Ukraine is next and Russia will not be stopped.

'Cause you started it!

Georgia starts to ethnic cleanse all of the pro-Russian Osettians out of South Osettia and then when Putin puts a stop to the murder we're suppose to go in and start WW III with Russia? I don't think so.

Georgians: Why Won't NATO Help Us?


Err, maybe 'cause you're not a member of NATO?

You're right, Chris. The kind of hawkish bullshit coming from John McCain on Georgia is yet another reason we don't need another neocon in the White House.

Gosh, what does "real" in "realpolitik" mean?

The Russians recognize te fact that the U.S. politically is in no position to get involved. And as to the Europeans, NATO, is a farce without U.S. involvement.

If Georgia had been enrolled in NATO and Russia took this course of action, we'd have the potential for a real conflict now.

The US. will defend its own interests as in Irq and Iran, but Georgia is expendable. The Europeans may quiver and shake as the oil pipeline that is not under Russian control, is rendered inoperative, and their energy lifeline is exclusively under Russian control.

Are any of you pacifists suggesting that the United States and/or the West, Western Europe, should respond militarily?

Russia is on a roll with high oil prices providing it with economic clout. The U.S. has shoreline facilities off the California coast that are "ready to pump" that were closed down by environmentalists. The "ten year" period for bringing wells on-line is predicated on a seven to eight year legal delay, which can be circumvented.

The interconnectedness of events and circumstances is interesting. The environmentalists have brought about conversion of the rainforest in Brazil to sugar cane production, and the decimation of Indonesian forests, and corn ethanol in the U.S. as substitutes for readiuly available fossil fuels thus accelerating the destruction of this planet. Of even greater impact is the "do-gooder" impulse that has enabled the proliferation of population so great that resources are being expended at rates that bring pollution.

Where is Zero Population Growth when you need it? Instead we have programs that result in population growth until our inevitable destabilitzation and demise. The same overpopulation and subsequent decimation occurs in animal populations as the ratios between predator and prey populations are continuously adjusted to achieve a stasis within certain parameters.

But we humans will thwart natural processes until we achieve a macroscopic disaster. And the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse shall ride.

Posted by taxman at 2008-08-11 08:26 AM

It's a shame we used up our political capital, goodwill and reputation on Iraq.

Just curious, Taxman. Just what "political capital, what goodwill, and what reputation, would have availed us in this situation? How? Just what are you talking about? Think about it.

It's been said and often observed that it's more dangerous to be a friend of the US than an enemy. The US and Israel put the Georgians up to it with promises of support. Big mistake. The naval blockade against Iran won't go well either. The neocons and Israelis are incredibly stupid.

"I think we do have an obligation towards Georgia and macho George seems afraid to recognize that"

What obligation? You mean the same obligation this country has to the people of Iraq in the form of democracy? when does this obligation end, Danni? in the split second before the nukes are flying or the split second after they have landed?

Our greatest obligation has been and always will be to ourselves. When we become entangled in foreign alliances this is the result-- we are left hamstrung and humiliated on the global stage.

It's a lose-lose scenario, and not one to be escalated, even though there are plenty in this administration who peg their entire livelihood and reputation in fanning small fires into larger uncontrollable infernos. Case in point Iraq.

This should be a time for the United States to seriously reconsider the direction it is going in. Being bogged down in a five year, needless war in Iraq for extremely limited geopolitical benefits has nailed our hands to our own proverbial cross.

We cannot expect the idiots who helped get us into this mess in the first place to have any business getting us out. All they will do is what they know best, which is to make a bigger mess out of a smaller mess. They will use our powerful military in the worst ways. They will ignite unnecessary fires in regions of instability that BECKON total chaos. In short, they will do what they have been doing best, day in and day out-- helping the enemy.

The only thing left is the PEOPLE, but do you really think that for one moment those who were fooled into believing all the other MSM bullshit this administration offers us on a daily basis will suddenly too come to their senses?

Sadly it has come down to this.

And somewhere a forgotten group of men continue to clutch their rifles on some lonesome hill, yearning to see the sky burn once again, and waiting patiently till the familiar fire returns.

You're over your head, Johnson.

The Russians recognize te fact that the U.S. politically is in no position to get involved.

Putin's been warning Bush for years to stay out of their backyard. So Bush thought he could get away with it again. The severity of the Russian attack was to make a point.

And as to the Europeans, NATO, is a farce without U.S. involvement.

NATO should have been abolished after the Soviet Union collapsed. Instead Bush used it to antagonize the Russians. I'm sure Russia's border nations are getting the message.

This article is already posted on the front page

See: Georgia Pulls Out of Iraq

Why won't NATo help you? Maybe its because they know full well that the "War Mongering" State of Israel is behind it all!!!

The kind of hawkish bullshit coming from John McCain on Georgia is yet another reason we don't need another neocon in the White House.
Posted by nullifidian

Right on Nullifidian.
Actually we don't need a neocon in ANY position in the US Government.

The neocons and Israelis are incredibly stupid.
Posted by Ray

Arrogant as well?

ray,

Prove it..... I see you libs ae nothing more than Chamberlin clones... PUSSIES

Posted by retnluvnit

I address my comments to adults. Go back to your sandbox.

RAY

The US and Israel put the Georgians up to it with promises of support. Big mistake....

Check out this userblog I put up today on the BackPage. Read the article. It says exactly what you said about U.S. and Israel being involved. Israel would love nothing more than to have a conflict start if they thought it would be beneficial to getting Johnny "Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" McCain elected president.

Even tonight the cable political channels are talking about the Georgia conflict saying "doesn't this current problem with Russia prove to be more beneficial to McCain's candidacy."

Check out my link and read the article. It's not real long.

Russia accuses U.S. and Israel of Starting Conflict in Georgia

ray,

At what point will you realize you are a fucking chamberlin idiot? I am sure i is when the railcar door opens and the camp you were going to is not going to be a picnic.

I can see you bowing to your masters now.

Russia's excuse to invade Georgia sounds similar to Hitlers in invading Czechoslovakia.


Brzezinski, Obama's advisor, put Saakashvili in place, he is for enlargement of NATO.
www.mtholyoke.edu
eurasianet.org

Putin has rattled sabers at the Ukraine too.

All this talk about McCain being a warmonger is nothing compared to Brzezinski.

If you can't draw your own conclusions about the the future....well can't say you haven't been lead to the water.

Begin gratuitus Pink Floyd reference:

Forward he cried from the rear,
And the front-line died.
The generals sat,
And the lines on the map,
Moved from side to side.

end.

Georgia started it by targeting Russian peacekeepers and Ossetian citizens. let their ass hang in the wind -- that goes for the blackwater mercs over there too.

"With its editorial, Stopping Russia: the US and its allies must unite against Moscows war on Georgia,-- the Washington Post has established a world record for the maximum number of lies in the minimum number of words.

Except for the Washington Post, the entire world knows that Georgia (the birthplace of Joseph Stalin, not Georgia USA) initiated the aggression that killed Russian peacekeepers and hundreds of civilians in South Ossetia, peacekeepers who were there with the blessing of Georgia and international agreements.

The true facts are available all over the world press. But the liberal-- Washington Post serves up the lie that Russia has attacked Georgia and conceivably plans to conquer all of Georgia. This is a grave challenge to the United States and Europe,-- thunders the Bush Regimes mouthpiece, aka, the liberal media.--

Thirsting for blood, the liberal media-- declares: The United States and its NATO allies must together impose a price on Russia.--

Here we see the combination of idiocy and delusion in one sentence. The United States has proved that it is incapable of occupying Iraq, much less Afghanistan. Russia has a large trade surplus. Americas NATO allies are dependent on Russian natural gas. Yet the liberal-- Washington Post wants a bankrupt US and its NATO allies-- who are dependent on Russian energy to impose a price on Russia-- for defending its peacekeepers!

Seldom has the world seen such total insanity as the neoconservative Washington Post, a propaganda sheet as far from liberal media-- is it is possible to be.

Georgia was part of Old Russia and the Soviet Union for two centuries. After Soviet communism collapsed, the US taxpayer funded neoconservative National Endowment for Democracy broke every agreement that President Reagan had made with Gorbachev and began using US taxpayers money to rig and purchase elections in former constituent parts of the Russian/Soviet empire.

The Endowment for Democracy purchased Georgia as a US colony. The affront to Russia was extreme, but at the time Russia was weak. Oligarchs with outside money had grabbed control over Russian resources, and Russia was in dire straits and could not resist American imperialism.

Putin corrected the situation for Russia.

Now using American weapons Georgia for reasons yet to be revealed has violated its own agreement with Russia and attacked South Ossetia, killing in the process Russian peacekeepers. Vladimir Vasilyev, chairman of the Russian State Duma Committee for Security told the press: The things that were happening in Kosovo, the things that were happening in Iraq we are now following the same path. The further the situation unfolds, the more the world will understand that Georgia would never be able to do all this without America.--

Yes, without America there would be no war in Ossetia and no war between Russia and its former constituent part.

Without America there would be no war in Afghanistan. No war in Iraq.

Without America there would not be 1.2 million dead Iraqis and 4 million displaced Iraqis. We have no idea of the toll on Afghan civilians, although women and children appear to be the prime targets of the US/NATO forces that are bringing peace and freedom to Afghanistan.--

Recently, US Secretary of State Condi Rice said that the US government could not prevent an Israeli attack on Iran. Israel is an independent country, said the American Secretary of State. What an extraordinary lie.

Israel cannot exist without American weapons and money. Israel cannot attack Iran without overflying Iraq, which the US air force can easily prevent. It is clear as day that the Bush Regime has given the green light to Israel to attack Iran so that the Bush Regime can rush to Israels defense.--

Meanwhile the liberal-- media is urging the US to get involved in a war between Russia and Georgia. The insanity will lead to the unloosening of nuclear weapons."

Link for above excerpt:
www.counterpunch.org

"All this talk about McCain being a warmonger is nothing compared to Brzezinski."

They are both imperialists, Andrea.

"Err, maybe 'cause you're not a member of NATO?"

It's not like Georgia hasn't been trying.

NATO should have been abolished after the Soviet Union collapsed. Instead Bush used it to antagonize the Russians.

Actually, it goes further back than Bush2. Should have been abolished by Bush1 or Clinton. But NATO is a great military career developer, military makework project and arms outlet. Georgia and the Ukraine will end up with F-16s, M-16s and Abrams tanks as they do the required upgrade of their military to join NATO.

Dear georgia;

Sorry about the whole 'go for it" thing. Ireally thought Pootie would buckle.
However, while you are in pieces, we will have peace in our time>"

Your friend,
George

PS Thanks for cutting and running in Iraq, you pussies. can we have our money back?


It's a shame we used up our political capital, goodwill and reputation on Iraq.

Posted by taxman

Georgia picked a fight with Russia... even if we never went into Iraq Russia would still be kicking the fuck out of Georgia today. What the hell was Georgia thinking? This is the equivolent of Cuba throwing some missiles at Miami and then expecting Russia to help them.

We should be using all diplomatic efforts to stop the fighting, but if we start WWIII over fucking Georgia that's just really fucking stupid... that may be more stupid then starting WWI over Serbia/Yugoslavia.

"We should be using all diplomatic efforts to stop the fighting, but if we start WWIII over fucking Georgia that's just really fucking stupid... that may be more stupid then starting WWI over Serbia/Yugoslavia"

Well Rob, you managed to hit one nail on the head-- the operative word is "stupid" and we certainly got some big time operators in Washington.

A few guys inside the beltway got their dicks shoved way up Georgia's ass and they happen to think its a pretty cozy place to flick paste. Don't expect them to go home blue-balled without getting their ideological rocks of on SOMETHING.

"Georgia picked a fight with Russia"

what? i'm seeing Russia invading Georgia not the other way around.

what? i'm seeing Russia invading Georgia not the other way around.

Posted by pragmatous

Yeah, after Georgia went into this disputed area with troops and killed some Russian peacekeepers.

Russia's response is disproportionate and they need to stop, but we don't need to end the lives of millions of Americans by going to war with Russia over something Georgia started.

Russia's response is disproportionate and they need to stop

Bull shit, you mess with the bull and you get the horns.

Russia needs to kick their living ass's back to the flint fire stage, won't ever be a problem again.

When leaders do stupid things, they need to pay and pay for it big time.

"Yeah, after Georgia went into this disputed area with troops and killed some Russian peacekeepers. "

you actually believe that nonsense from Russia? Russia was once an enemy to the world. In my opinion they still are. i don't believe anything Russia says.

Once a communist always a communist. You don't magically change your ideals. The fact that a democratic state is being invaded is unprecedented!

Democracies don't fight each other. Which leads me to know that Russia is not a democracy.

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole at 2008-08-11 11:22 PM

Yeah, after Georgia went into this disputed area with troops and killed some Russian peacekeepers.

It sounds surprisingly like the Polish attack on Germany before the USSR and Germany then "counterattacked" against Poland in WWII.

It doesn't make much sense.

Of course, Russia seems to want the oil pipeline through Georgia destroyed. But who would be so cynical as to think that the Russians are trying to secure a the role of monopoly supplier? Pretext? Who needs a stinkin' pretext?


War is hell.

Once a communist always a communist. You don't magically change your ideals. The fact that a democratic state is being invaded is unprecedented!
Democracies don't fight each other. Which leads me to know that Russia is not a democracy.

POSTED BY PRAGMATOUS

But Georgia was also communist.

Russia is still pissed about Kosovo becoming independent and effectively being told to "fuck off". So tit for tat they weren't going to allow Georgia to take over South Ossetia.

Real simple.

Georgia did some Bear Baiting and expected the same reaction that Kosovo got except they forgot to realize they weren't surrounded by EU/NATO countries like Kosovo.

Oops

South Ossetia has always been a part of Georgia. They tried to declare themselves as an independent country, but no country in the world recognizes that. Although Georgia should not have escalated the situation, Russia's response is way out of proportion. They have made their statement and now need to stop. If they do not stop now, they loose all credibility as "just protecting South Ossetia."

"I don't believe a political lightweight like Obama can handle Putin."

I don't see how Obama,, or anyone else, could be a worse CIC than Bush. All the next guy would have to do is try to do the job correctly and he'll have surpassed Bush, who can't be bothered with planning or intelligence or details or reality.

South Ossetia has always been a part of Georgia.

Always meaning way back to 1992. And since, until then , Georgia had always been a part of Russia...

And kurdistan has always been a part of Iraq, but we don't mind it functioning as a quasi-independent state.

If a part of a nation decides to break away from that bigger nation, does that mean a part of that part which wants to stay with the original nation, or go off on its own, have that right?

It sounds like Russia has stopped, after creating a "neutral" buffer around the parts of Georgia it wants.

Let's just hope no one yells "help us brothers" in Taiwan.

I can see you bowing to your masters now.
Posted by retnluvnit

You're too stupid to realize you've been bowing to your master for years. Thinking just what they want to think, saying the things they tell you to say. Don't question their judgment or authority. It's about what's right and left, not about what is actually correct. I'm sure this whole concept is going over your head being that you're a complete mindless lemming tool.

Those of you that want get our big noses involved in this mess, are willing to die for Georgia? If not then STFU and sit your ass back down.

"If they won't help us now, why did we help them in Iraq?"

So because they sent 2,000 troops to Iraq they should be able to drag us into WWIII?

Maybe they should have told NATO what they were planning on doing before assuming they would get help.

"Georgia had always been a part of Russia" - NG3

Not big on history, are you. Georgia didn't come under Russian control until the late 18th century when Russia took Georgia's request for help as meaning they wanted to be annexed. Interesting that both times a Russian empire collapsed, Georgia declared their own state (1918 and 1991).

Still, I gather your point is that once a country is under Russian rule it shouldn't dare think otherwise. I'm sure all of Eastern Europe appreciates your concern for them.

CC - I see you are still spreading the BS about "genocide" in southern Ossetia. You really should read the press in Poland, Ukraine, Armenia, etc. before you swallow Russia's claims.

Georgia was definitely stupid to act as it did. That is for sure. It does amaze me, though, that after all the years of fighting Russia's empire, the USSR, people are so willing to believe Russia and to give them what they demand. And I see that people who rightly condemn Bush for throwing away our credibility over Iraq are just as willing to throw away our credibility when it comes to Russia. Yep, great way to rebuild the world's trust in us.

FYI,
Lets get you on a plane to over there so you can fight th Russians. I'll buy your ticket.

Let me know.

FYIstilljustdon'tseethelight --

CC - I see you are still spreading the BS about "genocide" in southern Ossetia. You really should read the press in Poland, Ukraine, Armenia, etc. before you swallow Russia's claims.

You and I are back for round two :). But I refuse to keep supplying you with definitive links if you are just going to ignore them and make generalities. I will give you ONE more chance. I like arguing with you and this conflict is not going to stop any time soon so go along with me and read this link (at end of my post) so at least I know you're going to be half-way informed if we are going to debate this issue further.

You want to know why Georgia decided to attack So Ossetia? It's to create a diversion to keep the Russian bear occupied and their eye off of Iran. I am now giving you a link to a European business publication and it's a shame I have to go overseas to get the real news. There were other links but this is probably the one most conservative and palatable to you. It ties this Georgian-STARTED conflict in with the build up of our military off of Iran. READ IT.

Why do you so easily shove under the table the FACT that it was the Georgian military who attacked South Osettia FIRST?

Now you're all crying about the poor Georgian leader when he started the fight. He deliberately went in and killed the people in the break-away region of South Osettia -- most all of those people there held Russian passports too. Yet when Putin goes in to stop the slaughter you find fault with Russia??

Keep drinking the Neocon kool-aid, boy.

You should read this entire link. Took me some research to find out the reasons behind this conflict and it all points back to the Neocon agenda. Are YOU a Necon sympathizer, FYI?

I hope you will do a quick read of the entire article, but if you only have the attention span of a gnat, then at least go down to about the 14th paragraph (it's a quick read) and start with this sentence. If you don't bother to read this with an open mind I will not discuss this conflict with you any further.

REAL REASON BEHIND WHY GEORGIA ATTACKED SOUTH OSETTIA - to keep Russia busy and their eye off Iran

I'll be back on this thread later to read your pearls of wisdom about your take on what was said in my link. Keep an open mind. Okay, later.

FYI

In case you're confused by the title, the part about South Osettia is in this paragraph within my link. the article was written shortly before this conflict really got going and then it updates a few times afterwards. NOTE -- Israel was in there advising the Georgians which only gives more creedence to the fact this is all about a diversion re a war with Iran.

...A strategic diversion has been created for Russia. The Republic of Georgia, with US backing, is actively preparing for war on South Ossetia. The South Ossetia capital has been shelled and a large Georgian tank force has been heading towards the border. Russia has stated that it will not sit by and allow the Georgians to attack South Ossetia.

The Russians are great chess players and this game may not turn out so well for the neo-cons.

UPDATE 8 August 2008 ~ War has broken out between Georgia and South Ossetia.

At least 10 Russian troops have been killed and 30 wounded and 2 Russian fighter jets downed. American Marines, a thousand of them, have recently been in Georgia training the Georgian military forces.

Several European nations stopped Bush and others from allowing Georgia into NATO. Russia is moving a large military force with armor towards the area. This could get bad, and remember it is just a strategic diversion....but one that could have horrific effects. Link to story "Russia sends forces into Georgia rebel conflict".

FURTHER UPDATE ~ Russian military forces in active combat; now total of four Russian fighter jets reported downed.

ADDITIONAL UPDATE ~ Georgia calls for US help; Russian Air Force bombs Georgian air bases. DEBKA, the Israeli strategy and military site, states that Israeli military officers are advising the Georgian armed forces in combat operations and that 1,000 Israelis are in-combat on the side of Georgia at this time.

CC, I'd have to translate from Polish, Ukrainian, etc. which I'm not about to do. Still, here's Reuters summation:
"Poland and the Baltic states came together on Saturday to issue a harsh condemnation of Russia for what they described as aggression in Georgia and urged NATO and the European Union to oppose it.
The statement from Poland and the Baltic countries said they would use every available means to ensure that Moscow's "aggression against a small state in Europe is not passed over in silence or with meaningless statements equating the victims with the perpetrators."

Before you start with the "half-informed" bit, do read the East European press, not Russia's view only.

Yes, Georgia did attack south Ossetia. Because it considers it a break-away part of its country. And Russia intervened because it has "interests" there. Really, inform yourself better on the geopolitics of the area and quit blankly believing Putin. There was no "genocide". No country in Eastern Europe believes that. Damn, we go thru 50 years of fighting Russia, liberate all those countries, then you turn around and lap up their propaganda. WOW! It's not "neo-con propaganda", it's countries which were under Russia's thumb for generations and now want to get as far away from Russia as they can. And you come along and want to deny them that. I'm sure they will thank you.

CC, I was agaist the neo-con agenda when I first ran into it in 1998. People like you who learned about them only when we invaded Iraq are laughable. The world does _not_ revolve around them, much as they would like it to. As would you apparently. Yep, Western troops and others have been training Georgian forces. Also Polish, Ukrainian, Lithuanian, Estonian, Latvian, Hungarian, etc. I gather you would support Putin if Russia invaded them to "protect Russians". Damn, child, read some East European history. Read the East European press. Otherwise you sound no different than the Buffalo and his conspiracy theories.

"Why do you so easily shove under the table the FACT that it was the Georgian military who attacked South Osettia FIRST?"

CC, you sound really ignorant of history when you reduce the entire situation into that peephole. Why did Putin and the Russians attack Chechnia? Why have they been creating provacations in Estonia and Ukraine? Just like they have been doing in south Ossetia for years. Damn, stupid Americans and their lack of knowledge about the rest of the world!

FYIlovediversionsfromthefacts --

I went out of my way to get you a source (a neutral Euorpean business magazine) that was a valid source and not "hot off the press" from any Russian news source.

Do you STILL deny that Georgia's military attacked first? That Putin went in only to protect South Osettia and put a stop to the murders in that region which consisted of killings of civilians who hold Russian passports?

Why so quick to defend Georgia which STARTED all the killing and so quick to attack and lay all the blame on Russia which went in only to defend the ones being killed in South Osettia? If Russia is broadening the fight it's to teach Georgia's leader a lesson not to pull this crap again.

One question -- did you read my link? Did ya?

"Do you STILL deny that Georgia's military attacked first?"

CC, I have not denied that. And I read what IIRC was that article earlier. Read the various posts I have written. What I totally disagree with is that "Putin went in only to protect Osettia ...". I defend Georgia because I am very aware of Putin, his background (KGB), his agenda, his provacations of a similar nature in other countries. And I do not agree that it is Putin's job to "teach Georgia's leader a lesson". Isn't that what you keep bashing Bush for in Iraq, etc.?

BTW, do you recall that just a few years ago the KGB was our greatest enemy? Why do you so quickly believe what they say now?

Russia has slowly been making a play for Osettia for years through political subterfuge and dirty tricks.

democratic nations dont fight each other, remember that

FYI

BTW, do you recall that just a few years ago the KGB was our greatest enemy? Why do you so quickly believe what they say now?

It's certainly not that I'm pro-Russia or some commie. I am also well-aware of what went on under the USSR and that Putin was a big part of it with his connection to the KGB.
I also know Putin was angry with the break away regions as the Russian Bear did not want to lose it's Empire. That said, I try to look at both sides. This conflct was started and it was on purpose by Georgia. So forget the history lessons and let's look at today's scenario and why it was done.

Bush and the others have pushed for Georgia and the other break away regions to join NATO. This made Putin angry and nervous to have NATO guns all pointed in Moscow's direction, yes? And do you blame him, really?

Don't forget the very important part of the NATO agreement -- "An attack on one NATO country is an attack on all NATO countries."

If this happened a year later then the U.S. and the rest of NATO would have been obligated to send in our military to fight Russia over a conflict STARTED by the punk leader of Georgia. But Bush wasn't able to get Georgia into NATO quick enough and he's going to be out of office soon so looks like the Neocons figured they would still have Georgia start a fight anyway. Time is running short for the Bush Neocons in this Administration and you will not make be believe that they do not intend to start a war with Iran.

Israel -- who still has not stopped pushing for an attack on Iran -- has their hands are all over this Georgian conflict.

FYI -- Do you agree about the part stated in the article that this iconflict was started as a deliberate diversion to keep Russia occupied and it's eye off of the military buildup off of Iran? Yes or No.

Also, I'm sorry but I wasn't clear what you meant by this sentence:

And I read what IIRC was that article earlier.

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just not sure what article you're talking about that was "earlier" Does that mean you read my link posted at 3:34 or not? Or were you talking about a different article? All I want to know is if you read the article I just linked at 3:34 p.m. and what is your opinion is about the article's statement this conflict was intentionally started to keep Russia diverted from the military buildup off Iran. You still have not answered that question.

en.wikipedia.org

Obama's first reaction was..
"Meanwhile, on the political side, the Obama team picked a fight, attacking McCain senior foreign-policy adviser Randy Scheunemann because he represented Georgia in Washington"
www.suntimes.com

""Obama's campaign made two early missteps. First, in its initial statement, it called for restraint from both Russia and Georgia. . . . Then Obama's campaign released a statement questioning McCain's objectivity in the crisis because a top McCain aide, Randy Scheunemann, had lobbied for the Georgians."

Soo as Georgia burned obama played politics of old...blamimg politics. Some "change there heh..NOT!

Then once he was proven to look stupid here's what he had released!

"The former US national security adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinski, has called on the world community to isolate Russia in protest over its campaign in the Caucasus, likening its tactics to those of "Hitler or Stalin"."

"do you blame him, really?"

CC, well you see the issue from his perspective. I see it as all those countries wanting to get as far from him and Russia as possible and doing anything they can to expedite that. Those countries have had enough of their people dying because of Russia-caused famines (Ukraine) or their people sent to gulags (all ex-USSR countries). And being replaced by Russians.

"So forget the history lessons and let's look at today's scenario and why it was done."

Nope, history is _the_critical issue here. To ignore it is the same as ignoring the Sunni/Shia history when talking of their conflict.

"punk leader of Georgia"

Ah, you are a KGB stooge. I gather the leaders of Ukraine, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland are also "punk leaders". Nice to know where you stand.

Yep, the neo-cons would love to start a war with Iran. I notice that, despite all their efforts, it hasn't happened. It may, but I don't believe it.

"And I read what IIRC was that article earlier."

I read an article in the Russian press a few weeks ago which sounded very much like your article. Which is why I believe the East European press rather than it. The Russians are very big on blaiming everything on NATO, the US, neo-cons.

"Do you agree about the part stated in the article that this iconflict was started as a deliberate diversion to keep Russia occupied and it's eye off of the military buildup off of Iran?"

Definitely not. Putin has been working on this for quite a while as a test of how the West would react if he pulled a similar stunt in Estonia and Ukraine.

Which is it, lady, are you ignorant of the geopolitics of Russia and the "near abroad" or are you a KGB stooge? If/when Putin pulls a similar stunt in Estonia or Ukraine, will you also be supporting him over those countries "punk leaders"?

Well calchris HOW do YOU respond to Zbigniew Brzezinski's comments..or do you chose to have selective reading and prefer to wear obama change focused glasses???

I DARE YOU TO RESPOND!!!!!

"The former US national security adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinski, has called on the world community to isolate Russia in protest over its campaign in the Caucasus, likening its tactics to those of "Hitler or Stalin"

I guess Putin's attempted murder by poisoning of Viktor Yushchenko, the President of The Ukraine, was Yushchenko's fault somehow?

Putin is an evil man with empirical aspirations. Now 'leader for life' as Prime Minister he'll make every attempt to expand Russian (Soviet) dominance through any means in the former republics.

I've read up a lot on the Georgian situation going back years.

Putin's the culprit, not the other way around. Georgia's a true democracy. Russia is only masquerading as such under Putin.


That word "appeasement" comes to mind about now. George Bush looked a bit like Neville Chamberlain at the Olympics while his close ally Georgia was being invaded. I think we do have an obligation towards Georgia and macho George seems afraid to recognize that. Next time we build a "Coalition of the Willing" we should either warn them that the alliance is a one-way street or recognize the real threats they face and decide whether we are willing to be a true ally or not. This whole thing makes the US look like a paper tiger.

Posted by danni at


so what did you want him to do....punch putin in the nose?


dont any of you appreciate the problem this all causes no matter what happens?
if he was talking shit to russia, you would just attack him for that so who gives a shit what any of you say now?

and georgia isnt in nato, are they?

Chris-

I went out of my way to get you a source (a neutral Euorpean business magazine) that was a valid source

You have got to be kidding, the guy who wrote your "valid source" is not a neutral business magazine, but a loon who calls himself "Lord Sterling" with a blogspot from Evansville Indiana.

I hold several ancient Scottish titles, Earl of Stirling, Viscount of Canada, Viscount of Stirling, Lord Alexander of Tulibody (1630), Lord Alexander of Tulibody (1633), etc., Chief of Clan Alexander, I also hold several honorific old Canadian great offices-of-state: Lord Lieutenant and Governor of Canada, Lord High Admiral of Nova Scotia, Lord Lieutenant of Nova Scotia, Lt.-Gen. of Nova Scotis (first Lord Stirling was founder of English speaking Canada in the early 1600s).
I wonder how the Canucks littering the DR feel about their long-lost Viscount, Lord Lieutenant and Governor of Canada?

DAVE THE WAVE --


Well calchris HOW do YOU respond to Zbigniew Brzezinski's comments..or do you chose to have selective reading and prefer to wear obama change focused glasses???

I DARE YOU TO RESPOND!!!!!

Hah! You know I never run from a debate but I have stuff around here I need to take care of now. You'll just have to contain your excitement and wait with breathless anticipation for my answer a bit later on today on this thread. :)

fyi

I read an article in the Russian press a few weeks ago which sounded very much like your article. Which is why I believe the East European press rather than it.

Your own words proved you didn't even begin to read my link. Afraid of what you might find?

As for your answer, I don't care about some your reading some stupid article in the Russian press which "sounded very much like your article" and how would you know that anyway, when you didn't even read my article?

As for your saying my article is from the Eastern European press -- huh?
More proof you didn't read my article. It was written by a Scotsman in CANADA. Not eactly an Eastern European country the last time I checked.

Also at the bottom of the article I linked you will see it also links to it being in a Jewish publication and another one -- none of which are Russian-connected so your waaaaaay off base.

Face it, you didn't read my article because you know it's probably true so you've done nothing but deflect and try to call the article a Russian propaganda article or Eastern European when it had nothing to do with originating from anyone from those regions. Try, try again

Why are you so fearful about actually reading the article I linked? It only took me a few minutes to read. It won't bite you but then reading it might smack you upside the head with the truth so you keep deflecting and avoid reading it by saying this CANADIAN article written by a SCOTSMAN is some Russian/Eastern European commie propaganda. Go figure.

CC, but I did read your article. Otherwise, how would I be able to compare it to the Russian article? My point was that it sounds very much like it was based on the Russian article. Learn to read, not merely imagine what you want to.

Where did I say your article is from the East European press? Do remember contrasting it to what the EE press said, though.

BTW, read what RoC posted about the author of that article. Then go sit in the corner with JeffinDenmark.

I have not read your link but I will. Still it's funny how the dr left refuses to even admit to what obama..and his cronies.. is/are saying, much less justify his words....

I wonder how the Canucks littering the DR feel about their long-lost Viscount, Lord Lieutenant and Governor of Canada?

Posted by Rightocenter at 2008-08-12 05:26 PM

*Chuckle*

I would give ROC a FF if it weren't for the fact that he eviscerated CalChris' "valid source" in his post.

BushCo instigated this mess, as usual, in order to access Russia's military inventory and technology. This is an important step towards detroying Iran. The Georgians, dead, displaced or maimed are all just more collateral damage. No big deal.

RightoCenter, LeftCoastLawyer, FYI

Why do I get the impression from your userhandles that you would not look at any other view except the view from the far right. Well, whatever.

RightOCenter writes --

You have got to be kidding, the guy who wrote your "valid source" is not a neutral business magazine, but a loon who calls himself "Lord Sterling" with a blogspot from Evansville Indiana.

Posted by Rightocenter at 2008-08-12 05:26 PM


You three say the guy is some Lord Lunatic. I never heard of him before but I'm to take your word for it? Even if he's a loon if you go to the end of that article in my first link you'll see the article he posted came partially from other publications -- one is a Jewish publication -- so it's not like Lord Loon wrote the entire article himself.

I will return tomorrow and find another source -- too late to bother with now. Of course some of the wind is now out of my sails since it looks like the entire conflict has come to a halt since Russia agreed to back off. Still, we can debate it further -- even if I'm being ganged up on 3 to 1. Tomorrow is another day. So until then, gentlemen.

btw -- This guy says wants to sell one of his "titles" if any of you all might be interested.
You could be Lord Leftcoastlawyer or Duke RightOCenter or the Earl of FYI. Never mind, it's bad enough putting up with all of your egos now as it is. hahaha. Okay, until tomorrow.

Russia has basically challenged us by Invading Georgia. It is time we accepted.

Lets get some things clear. What does Georgia have that we need? Why is Russia our enemy? Last but not least do we not have bigger fish to fry right here at home?

Rast,

Don't you know, Georgia started it with our weapons.

"Except for the Washington Post, the entire world knows that Georgia (the birthplace of Joseph Stalin) initiated the aggression that killed Russian peacekeepers and hundreds of civilians in South Ossetia, peacekeepers who were there with the blessing of Georgia and international agreements.

The true facts are available all over the world press. But the liberal-- Washington Post serves up the lie that Russia has attacked Georgia and conceivably plans to conquer all of Georgia. This is a grave challenge to the United States and Europe,-- thunders the Bush Regimes mouthpiece, aka, the liberal media.--

Thirsting for blood, the liberal media-- declares: The United States and its NATO allies must together impose a price on Russia.--

Here we see the combination of idiocy and delusion in one sentence. The United States has proved that it is incapable of occupying Iraq, much less Afghanistan. Russia has a large trade surplus. Americas NATO allies are dependent on Russian natural gas. Yet the liberal-- Washington Post wants a bankrupt US and its NATO allies-- who are dependent on Russian energy to impose a price on Russia-- for defending its peacekeepers!
Seldom has the world seen such total insanity as the neoconservative Washington Post, a propaganda sheet as far from liberal media-- is it is possible to be.

Georgia was part of Old Russia and the Soviet Union for two centuries. After Soviet communism collapsed, the US taxpayer funded neoconservative National Endowment for Democracy broke every agreement that President Reagan had made with Gorbachev and began using US taxpayers money to rig and purchase elections in former constituent parts of the Russian/Soviet empire.

The Endowment for Democracy purchased Georgia as a US colony. The affront to Russia was extreme, but at the time Russia was weak. Oligarchs with outside money had grabbed control over Russian resources, and Russia was in dire straits and could not resist American imperialism.

Putin corrected the situation for Russia.

Now using American weapons Georgia for reasons yet to be revealed has violated its own agreement with Russia and attacked South Ossetia, killing in the process Russian peacekeepers. Vladimir Vasilyev, chairman of the Russian State Duma Committee for Security told the press: The things that were happening in Kosovo, the things that were happening in Iraq we are now following the same path. The further the situation unfolds, the more the world will understand that Georgia would never be able to do all this without America.--

Yes, without America there would be no war in Ossetia and no war between Russia and its former constituent part.

Without America there would be no war in Iraq.

Without America there would not be 1.2 million dead Iraqis and 4 million displaced Iraqis. We have no idea of the toll on Afghan civilians, although women and children appear to be the prime targets of the US/NATO forces that are bringing peace and freedom to Afghanistan.--

Recently, US Secretary of State Condi Rice said that the US government could not prevent an Israeli attack on Iran. Israel is an independent country, said the American Secretary of State. What an extraordinary lie.

Israel cannot exist without American weapons and money. Israel cannot attack Iran without overflying Iraq, which the US air force can easily prevent. It is clear as day that the Bush Regime has given the green light to Israel to attack Iran so that the Bush Regime can rush to Israels defense.--

Meanwhile the liberal-- media is urging the US to get involved in a war between Russia and Georgia. The insanity will lead to the unloosening of nuclear weapons."

excerpted from Paul Craig Roberts @ Counterpunch

People need to wake up to the fact that the biased Western Media is spreading lies and DISINFORMATION to the American public. The Georgians provoked the conflict by attacking Russian peacekeepers, and commiting genocide against the people of South Ossetia. Human rights groups are flooding the area. They know the truth. The West is supporting another a 2 bit liar in Georgia. The Russians did the right thing. CNN caught spreading DISINFORMATION. www.youtube.com
www.youtube.com
www.youtube.com

CNN caught MISLEADING the public. www.infowars.com

People need to wake up to the fact that the biased Western Media is spreading lies and DISINFORMATION to the American public. The Georgians provoked the conflict by attacking Russian peacekeepers, and commiting genocide against the people of South Ossetia. Human rights groups are flooding the area. They know the truth. The West is supporting another a 2 bit liar in Georgia. The Russians did the right thing. CNN caught spreading DISINFORMATION.
www.youtube.com
www.youtube.com
www.youtube.com

"Russia has basically challenged us by Invading Georgia. It is time we accepted."

Assuming you are aware that they aren't talking about the state known as Georgia: I wish you the best of luck fighting the Russians. I'm sure the Georigian Foreign Legion is looking for a few good men right about now. We'll tie a yellow ribbon for ya.

CC, great buddies you have there in Asiancapitalist and Nutcase. Their posts are how your position looks in all its full glory. "The Endowment for Democracy purchased Georgia as a US colony." Yep, great position, if you are talking about the 18th century and the growing US.

No, I'm not posting from any far-right position, unless you believe that the perspective of nations who are trying to develop their own country independent of Russia are "far-right". But, please, do tell Poland, Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, etc. that they ar wrong to oppose mother Russia who, after all, wants only the best for her children. Who are too stupid to live without her guidance.

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