Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Monday, August 11, 2008

The Georgian government is recalling its 2,000 troops serving in Iraq to confront the threat at home. Many Georgians will be reluctant to send them back after this war ends.

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Because Republicans are a bunch of pansy-assed, appeasement-monkey pencil-necked geeks.

"Why were our soldiers in Kosovo and Iraq if we dont get any help from the West now?-- he asked."

Cuz you ain't gots the oil.

maybe they should have waited until after the iraq war was over to pick a fight with russia.

Cuz you ain't gots the oil.

Posted by danni

You do know there's an oil pipeline running right through Georgia, don't you?

The West; Here, let me help you carry that load of oil.

Countries with oil; It's ok, we've got it.

The West; No, No, we insist.

Countries with oil; ok, maybe just a little.

The west; hey, what's that (pointing off in the distance) (when the oil country turns around the west clubs them in the back of the head).

The West; Told you that you needed help carrying that load, I mean look, you're having trouble standing up.

"Why were our soldiers in Kosovo and Iraq if we dont get any help from the West now?-- he asked."

I imagine it has something to do with some sort of bribery. Either that or you are a bunch of suckers.

But what does this clown want us to do against Russia anyway? What part of mutually assured destruction doesn't he get?

maybe they should have waited until after the iraq war was over to pick a fight with russia.

Posted by klifferd

do'ohski!

Actually, I think this whole Ossetia thing was just a scam by georgia to get out of Iraq w/o being called defeatocrats. Too bad they ended up being defeatogoofs instead.

" I will go to Georgia. I will dance my solidarity with you dance. You will be happy."
GWB

Ps I'm also seeing how many bajillions I can borrow from China to give you guys weapons.

"But what does this clown want us to do against Russia anyway?"

What were we going to do if they invaded Germany back in the Cold War???

"What were we going to do if they invaded Germany back in the Cold War???"

I dunno.

I don't see what that has to do with the fact that in the present, reality is that we can't reasonably expect to survive a war with Russia - nor can they expect to survive a war with us.

Georgia Pulls Out of Iraq???

Too late!
The bitch is ALREADY pregnant!

I agree with 101 statement last week. Send them Stingers and TOWS anti tank weapons. Make the Russians earn it...

WE should do at least as much For Georgia as we did for the Mujahadeem in Afghanistan.

WE should do at least as much For Georgia as we did for the Mujahadeem in Afghanistan.

Posted by danni

And when the first Georgian flys a 747 into the sears tower, we can all go, why did they do that?

We'll end up arming ( on our own dime)the fuck out of georgia and the Ukraine and any number of oily stans like we did with the mujahadeen and saddam and it'll all turn out great. Russia, of course, will arm the fuck out of Syria, Iran and other oily stans and that'll turnout great too.

But sic transit gloria Reagan won the cold war.

They've also pulled out of Ossetia and Abrakadabra.
Shouldn't somebody have told the Georgians not to get their military training from the French?

"And when the first Georgian flys a 747 into the sears tower, we can all go, why did they do that?"

No, we'll know why, it will because they came and supported us in Iraq but we deserted them in their time of need.

But American diplomats conceded that the US had few options and ruled out military intervention on behalf of Georgia. "We have no good options," a US National Security Council official told The Daily Telegraph. "We need Russia's co-operation over Iran and derailing that over a localised conflict in Georgia makes no sense. We just have to hope that diplomacy prevails. The next necessary step is for Russia to respond positively to Georgia's ceasefire declaration."

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice that Mikheil Saakashvili, the president of Georgia, "must go". Mr Lavrov said Russia would continue its military action in South Ossetia due to the "continuing direct threat to Russian citizens".

"reality is that we can't reasonably expect to survive a war with Russia - nor can they expect to survive a war with us."

Its nice to see someone here (and presumably the same age as me, 47) who still understands this concept.

Unfortunately when you have a bunch of ideologues running the country and driving foreign policy with no conception of reality there will be comprehension issues...

The Russians are angry because the U.S. airlifted the 2000 Georgian military back home to fight the Russians. Putin stated by sending back Georgia's military the U.S. is taking the side of Georgia against Russia. I hope this conflict does not escalate. I hope Bush just butts out. He has us in over our head enough as it is.

We can't and won't go to Georgia's aid but I think many of our allies will rethink their relationship with the US because of it. No more volunteering their troops to go fight in our unnecessary wars, hell they didn't realize it, but we weren't going to give them any or Iraq's oil either.

Right about now I wish Obama were president and these crazy neocons had no power to start WWIII.
I sure as hell don't want McCain anywhere near the WH.

"Its nice to see someone here (and presumably the same age as me, 47) who still understands this concept."

Hey, I'm not that old, guy.

Know Thy Enemy.

Russia has made a major chess move that this country was wholly unprepared for.

The have, in effect performed a queenside castle on us- a risky move that could very well pay huge dividends as they boldly position themselves as kingmaker in the 21st century global energy marketplace.

Russia usually has two modes of military confrontation-- I would call them Karpov and Kasparov, based on their two of their greatest grandmasters in chess. Karpov is military confrontation that is slow and plodding, to the point of being almost robotic and unrelenting in nature, nonetheless successful. Kasparov however is more flashy, deceptive, and tactically, more brilliant. Putin is a Kasparov-ian, it now is very apparent.

On our side we have Bush, who is more like "Connect Four". Sad.

"Shouldn't somebody have told the Georgians not to get their military training from the French?"

US Green Berets supplied training to Georgia's special forces and to some of their military.

All this because Putin is pissed that the Georgian president didn't give him proper respect (by toeing the Russian line) and therefore, Georgia "must pay".
Must be where Johnson derived his philosophy, that if you can stomp someone you don't like, you should.

"Putin is a Kasparov-ian ..."

Putin is KGB through and through. They have not been known, historically, for finesse. They wait until they can clobber, then they clobber.

Apparently Putin is not afraid of a terrorist campaign against Russians. When big countries invade little countries that is the only possible defense.

Danni

Heard a great summation of this conflict this A.M. on talk radio by an "on the ground" war correspondent. She said Putin is pissed because of the U.S.'s role in pushing Georgia to become a NATO country. Georgia is not a member of NATO yet. She also said there is real bad blood -- and it's personal -- between Putin and the leader of Georgia. I hope for once Bush butts out. Bush would never go into any new conflict, though, unless he could be guaranteed he could line his pockets with oil revenue and no bid, cost plus war profiteering contracts for him and his buddies.

From 2002:
By Nikolai Gorshkov
BBC's Moscow correspondent

The battle for Iraq has begun.

The first salvo was made by President Putin on the 11 September, who issued an ultimatum to Georgia to root up "international terrorists" or face Russian action.

------------------------------
------------------------------
--------------------
" Moscow was hinting that it would treat Georgia, an American ally, in the same way as Washington was about to treat Iraq, Russia's business partner "
------------------------------
------------------------------
--------------------

The salvo was aimed as much at Georgia's President Eduard Shevardnadze, as at the US President George Bush.

It was a pre-emptive strike on the eve of Mr Bush's speech at the United Nations, where he was expected to issue an ultimatum to Iraq.

Moscow was hinting that it would treat Georgia, an American ally, in the same way as Washington was about to treat Iraq, Russia's business partner.

Observers believe a quid pro quo has been in the making.

It may work both ways: either Moscow and Washington abstain from hitting their respective targets, or give each other a free hand.

news.bbc.co.uk

"We'll end up arming ( on our own dime)the fuck out of georgia and the Ukraine ..."

You do know that Ukraine willingly gave up all of their nukes when they became independent, don't you. With the understanding that the West (and US) would back them if Russia invaded. Silly them.

"The battle for Iraq has begun."

Wouldn't that be Iran today. Putin invades parts of Georgia just as Bush/Cheney think they might just bomb Iran. Sort of makes it look like Russia thinks they have the same "unilateral" rights as the US to attack whoever they see fit. The US became way too arrogant with all that "we won the cold war" and "only super power." It was like we have been begging someone to challenge us, now Russia has, the great super power is impotent.

WHERE IS CANDY RICE? GO SHOPPING???HER JOB RIGHT NOW IS TALKING TO RUSSIA TO COOL DOWN.CAN SHE DO IT? DAMN, WOMEN CAN`T DO NOTHING....

"...But what does this clown want us to do against Russia anyway? What part of mutually assured destruction doesn't he get?...Posted by Sully"

So much for the Republican Mantra that America is the greatest, strongest, most powerful country on the face of the earth!

All I hear from the Right-Wing White house is

BWWACKKK BWAACCCK CLUCK CLUCK BWAAAACK!

FYI

You do know that Ukraine willingly gave up all of their nukes when they became independent, don't you. With the understanding that the West (and US) would back them if Russia invaded. Silly them.

The leader of Georgia started to ethnic cleanse and murder all the people of South Ossetia who considered themselves as Russian. More than 1000 are already dead. Thousands are now refugees. You mean to tell me we are going to back up the Georgian leader scumball just because he gave up Georgia's nukes? Nukes he knew he could never have used on another country anyway without Georgia being turned into a parking lot.

The U.S. is now suppose to go along with Georgia's leader's ethinic cleansing massacres and fight Russia when they intervened to stop it from happening. Who's side are you on? You can back Georgia's leader and cheer him on in his slaugtering the Russian in South Ossetia. I don't blame Putin. Don't mess with the Russian bear. Besides, your boy Bush has got us now tied down in Iraq for another 50 years. We have two wars now ongoing (I agree with our war in Afghanistan, btw) and it's time to let some other countries do the bleeding for a change.

Chris, I've heard some reports that say the deaths are not necessarily really happen. I haven't read yet that the slaughter was confirmed.

Wouldn't that be Iran today. Putin invades parts of Georgia just as Bush/Cheney think they might just bomb Iran. Sort of makes it look like Russia thinks they have the same "unilateral" rights as the US to attack whoever they see fit. The US became way too arrogant with all that "we won the cold war" and "only super power." It was like we have been begging someone to challenge us, now Russia has, the great super power is impotent.

Posted by danni at 2008-08-11 03:10 PM |

On one hand you say we are ditching our allies. The next post is I hope Obama is President because he won't start WW 111. Now you are blaming it on our success as a superpower? What kills me about your obvious ignorance is you think Russia attacked Georgia. Who started this conflict? Why do you insist on showing you know so little about so much? Regardless of the thread.

Danni

Here's a link to the NYTimes -

1500 reported dead in Georgian Conflict

"The leader of Georgia started to ethnic cleanse and murder all the people of South Ossetia who considered themselves as Russian. More than 1000 are already dead."

CalChris, you really should read more than just Russian propaganda. None of the neighboring states believe those statements. Might there be a reason? Possibly because he has made similar claims about the Baltic countries and Ukraine? Give him a little time and he'll be claiming that we're doing the same to the Russians in New York city and Philly.

Yep, I do blame Putin totally. He will do anything to get what he wants. He's the one who stated that the greatest tragedy of the 20th century was the collapse of the Soviet Union and that his greatest ambition is to restore it. I very much will take anyone's word over Putin's any day of the week.

Btw, you really should read some of my posts before stating that Bush is "my boy".

Danni, are you saying that Putin has every right to do as he pleases in countries neighboring Russia?

"Danni, are you saying that Putin has every right to do as he pleases in countries neighboring Russia?"

Hell no, but our unilateral attack(s) on Iraq and potentially Iran give him the opportunity to say we are the pot calling the kettle black.

"Why do you insist on showing you know so little about so much?"

I don't. I just post what I have read and they right after you post FYI says pretty much the same thing. The reports of up to 2,000 killed by Georgia are very suspect and no reporters have been able to confirm it.
I am not taking sides on this conflict. How could any of us, we don't have enough information but Georgia does have a point when they complain that we are not a reliable ally. They thought they had allied with the world's only "super power" and now they are realizing we aren't "super".

CalChris, you really should read more than just Russian propaganda.

Doug McIntyre's show on KABC (790 AM) talk radio is hardly a bastion of commie propoganda and that's where I got this info. They had a war correspondent on the ground call in from there this morning and she rattled off fact after fact. No partisan leaning one way or the other.
btw - this talk show host and the radio channel lean to the right.

Also, how very convenient for Bush to get another war just as the election is around the corner. Think your boy Bush just might have whispered something into the ear of the Georgian leader and asked him to stir up a little trouble? Bush needs something to take our focus away from all his failings, the price of gas, and the God-awful mess he's made of our country. Nothing better than another good ol' war to get the Republican base all hopped up and out to the polls. I put nothing past Bush after the lies he told about Iraq.

"Russia is trying to demonstrate that Nato and other western allies cannot provide any help to its neighbours - that Russia is the sole guarantor in that region," said James Sherr, head of the Russia and Eurasia programme of the conflict studies research centre at Chatham House, a UK foreign affairs think-tank.

"The Russian objective is to demonstrate to the Georgians, and other countries in the region, that if they provoke Russia they will more than get a bloody nose," he added.

"This is now becoming a test of Ukraine's sovereignty, as well as Georgia's," Mr Sherr added.

" but our unilateral attack(s) on Iraq and potentially Iran give him the opportunity to say we are the pot calling the kettle black."

Danni, yep, this was the great fear many people had when we invaded Iraq. And Putin was quoted, at that time, as saying it would provide great opportunity for him.

The Georgian government is recalling its 2,000 troops serving in Iraq to confront the threat at home--

YEAH!

Thanks democratic congress, with your Swamping of America with Illegal Aliens and your shameless Energy Policies Emphasizing More Consumption --- now Georgia has had to leave the Iraqi chocolates to come home and defend us true Americans from your oppressive rule!

Sincerely

A Fox News Watcher

"So much for the Republican Mantra that America is the greatest, strongest, most powerful country on the face of the earth!

All I hear from the Right-Wing White house is

BWWACKKK BWAACCCK CLUCK CLUCK BWAAAACK! "

You would want Bush & Cheney and the rest of the crew that horribly bungled the logistics in Iraq to take on the Russians?

That makes about as much sense as a dude fucking another dude.

Oh wait.......

CalChris, where ever you got it, it sounds almost exactly as what has been coming out of Russian TV for quite a few days. Still, if you accept that version, you are calling Poland, the Baltic countrie, Ukraine, Armenia, Azerbaijan, etc. liars. Personally, I'm inclined to believe them.

Wow, if you believe Bush instigated this in any way, you really are disconnected from the events there. All this is going to do is give Bush a very black eye. And enlarge the growing distrust of his and NATO's leverage over anything Russia wishes to do.

BTW, how can Bush be "my boy" if I opposed the IRAQ war since before it began? Don't be such a twit.

I wonder if Bush did any more gazing into Pootie's eyes in Beijing???

FYI

BTW, how can Bush be "my boy" if I opposed the IRAQ war since before it began?
Don't be such a twit.

I had forgotten.

- CalifTwit

Wow, if you believe Bush instigated this in any way, you really are disconnected from the events there.

Exactly why it would not have taken much to institgate a conflict over there, right? There's always been tension in that region so all the more reason it would be easy to get things riled up without suspicion. After the lies about Iraq, I put nothing past Bush nothing at all.

"Danni, yep, this was the great fear many people had when we invaded Iraq. And Putin was quoted, at that time, as saying it would provide great opportunity for him."

Seconded. In fact, Putin recently said, "Of course, Saddam Hussein ought to have been hanged for destroying several Shiite villages and the incumbent Georgian leaders (Saakaskvili, et. al.) who razed ten Ossetian villages at once, who ran elderly people and children with tanks, who burned civilian alive in their shedsthese leaders must be taken under protection."

Here Putin is, calling our country out in humiliating fashion, linking Georgia and Iraq.

One has the distinct feeling that our government has no fucking clue whatsoever what to do outside of having thier toadies writing op-eds about how BAAAAD the Russkies are to hurting poor wittle Georgia. A bunch of ideological lightweight pussies was all they ever were, and now we see the results of their idiotic behaviors.

"We face a hostile ideology-- global in scope, atheistic in character, ruthless in purpose, and insidious in method. We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex... Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of DEFENSE with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."
-Eisenhower

Danni, are you saying that Putin has every right to do as he pleases in countries neighboring Russia

Georgia was a part of Russia for decades which broke away in 1990. Ossetia and aberdaber broke away from Georgis right after that.

It'll be interesting to find out whether Russia provoked georgia, or if Georgia pulled the trigger thinking Nato and Bush had their back.

I'd also like to know when we knew this was going to happen and whay we did nothing. georgian Ossetians are caliming Russia was evacuating their folk in the days leading up to the fight. dod we not know georgia and/or Russia was building up troops beforehand? Kind of scary to think Russia could invade another country w/o the west having a clue.

"Of course, Saddam Hussein ought to have been hanged for destroying several Shiite villages and the incumbent Georgian leaders (Saakaskvili, et. al.) who razed ten Ossetian villages at once, who ran elderly people and children with tanks, who burned civilian alive in their shedsthese leaders must be taken under protection."

Reminds me of the stories we heard about the Iraqi atrocities in Kuwait which proved to be false.

Putin is using Dubya's Daddy's tactics.

I don't. I just post what I have read and they right after you post FYI says pretty much the same thing.

Posted by danni at 2008-08-11 03:32 PM

Where does it say Russia attacked Georgia first? Or started the conflict?

"I put nothing past Bush nothing at all."

Well, he and Putin _are_ buddies. Still, I think giving oneself a black eye is a bit far to go for such a buddy. Anyhow, IMO, James Sherr's anaylysis (see my quote in previous post) is the best summation of the situation. And the start of a real nightmare for us.

"Danni, are you saying that Putin has every right to do as he pleases in countries neighboring Russia"

Certainly not but then what gave us the right to demand Aristide leave Haiti?? We basicly kidnapped him and flew him away. Our country has to learn we don't have the right to invade/occupy/extract resources just like Russia doesn't have that right.
Though, in Georgia right now, it seems might makes right.

"Where does it say Russia attacked Georgia first? Or started the conflict?"

How does it even matter??? Russia was waiting for an excuse and either a real excuse did materialize or they made one up. They were going to invade sooner or later anyway. It may not be coincidental that Bush was in Beijing when it happened. It could have been intended as a method by which to show the world how little power he (and we as a nation) have in that part of the world.

You gotta love being the US ally.
We've got your back. Right! Did you really think we'd let you into Nato and defend you against the Russians. Bush won't do anything because he can trust Puti Poot.
I thought Condi Rice was supposed to be a Russian Expert. Where is her plan to deal with Russia. Watch the true Appeasers.
We need to totally back Georgia on this. And we won't because our military is too bogged down around the world. Watch Ukraine Next.
The Iron Curtain is going back up and we won't do a thing against Russia
Wrong decision. This is world wAr III people. I just hope it's over before my kids get drafted.

Run Away! Run Away!
Monty PYthon and the holy Grail

"Georgia was a part of Russia for decades which broke away in 1990."

Same applies to the Baltic countries, Ukraine, Belarus, etc. Does that give Russia the right to invade them? Hell, Russia wouldn't even let Chechnia get away.

Ossetia didn't "break away". It tried to seceede, like Chechnia did from Russia.

"Where does it say Russia attacked Georgia first? Or started the conflict?"

If you exclude Russian reports, Georgia invaded southern Ossetia (separation conflict). Russia then sent in it's troops to southern Ossetia, then into Georgia. Note, no fighting in any part of Russia. However, the "fog of war" is truly out in all of its thickness right now.

Why are we, as Americans, not willing to believe our ally's version of events unless there is a reason not to???

Why are we, as Americans, not willing to believe our ally's version of events unless there is a reason not to???

I don't know---but you just made the front page of CNN's website.

Congratulations, grrrrll :)

I posted this on the other Georgia thread but it "bears" repeating:

The lack of geopolitical awareness on the DR rears its head again, but c'mon people, use your heads: This has little to do with Iraq, Bush, Kosovo etc., and everything to do with force projection by Mother Russia, fear of Georgian inclusion in NATO and the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline.

Putin et al. are gauging EU, UN and NATO response to their incursion into Georgia and showing that the Bear still has claws. So far, NATO, the UN and the EU have shown that they have nothing, and this will only embolden the Russians to start expanding their influence in the rest of the former Warsaw Pact.

Posted by Rightocenter at 2008-08-11 03:11 PM

Putin has been waiting for (and according to most reports, baiting) a former Soviet Republic to take a swipe at Mother Russia so that he can show that the Russians will not take their former satellite's moves towards independence lightly. This is not about the "recreation" of the Soviet Union, but more about Russia's centuries old drive to create a buffer zone between it and its real or imagined enemies.

Russia is friends with no one, they only want people to respect and fear them, nothing more. The U.S. is not the primary target here, but the EU.

Huuuuge FF for Mao.

Rightocenter-
But "W" looked into Putin's soul and found a nice happy place with ponies and chocolate, didn't he?

Boyduhh-

Bush Derangement Syndrome still got you down, does it?

I just put up this userblog on the backpage. Russia is accusing our heavy CIA presence in Georgia of deliberately starting the trouble.

Russia accuses U.S. Behind South Ossetia Conflict

Where was Bush when this conflict was heating up. Why did he do nothing to defuse it until it got to this point? Don't tell me with a heavy CIA presence in Georgia that Bush was unaware of this trouble brewing before now.

btw -- which party and their presidential candidate really could use a new war right now with the elections around the corner. Which candidate touts himself as being the next "war" president and the only candidate who could handle a war? Hmmm?

"This is not about the "recreation" of the Soviet Union, but more about Russia's centuries old drive to create a buffer zone between it and its real or imagined enemies." - RoC

That is Russia's claim. But it's not what their actions say. Putin has stated that he wants to recreate Russia's empire and that his ultimate aim is to reintegrate the Baltic countries, Ukraine and Belarus (the "near abroad") into Russia. Thus, I'm still trying to figure out exactly where that "buffer zone" is to be.

"Russia is accusing our heavy CIA presence in Georgia ..." - CC

Russia constantly accuses all of the former USSR countries of having "heavy CIA presence", of the CIA controlling their govts and elections. When they start showing some proof, I'll give their claims a look.

Bush did nothing to diffuse this conflict because he didn't believe his "buddy" would actually invade Georgia. Unfortunately, Georgia believed him.

Where was Bush when this conflict was heating up. Why did he do nothing to defuse it until it got to this point? Don't tell me with a heavy CIA presence in Georgia that Bush was unaware of this trouble brewing before now.

btw -- which party and their presidential candidate really could use a new war right now with the elections around the corner. Which candidate touts himself as being the next "war" president and the only candidate who could handle a war? Hmmm?

Posted by CalifChris at 2008-08-11 05:03 PM

Please refer to a post written at 5:00. On the other hand it appears from some of the posts Bush is as usual to blame. We have advisors training Georgians with American equipment and somehow Bush is complicit. On the other hand why didn't Bush know or do something. I thought you all wanted Bush to be the lame duck President and like the current Congress do nothing. Which is it? Should he respond and escalate the situation by supporting the Georgians? These same posters can't seem to accept who started the conflict by re-taking a disputed area.

Right0-
Would you like the quote?

W: "I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy. We had a very good dialogue. I was able to get a sense of his soul; a man deeply committed to his country and the best interests of his country."

We know that Putin was KGB, but who paid Bush to render us unable to respond to international crises?

Russias policy is driven by a mixture of emotion and calculation. The Russian security establishment likes the Ossetes, who have been Russian allies for more than 250 years. They loathe the Georgians for their antiRussian nationalism and alliance with the US. For a long time they hoped to use South Ossetia initially to keep Georgia within the Soviet Union and later in a Russian sphere of influence.

That Russian ambition has been abandoned largely in the face of the Georgians determination to escape from this influence.

What remains is an absolute determination not to be defeated by Georgia and not to suffer the humiliation of having to abandon Russias South Ossete client state, with everything that this would mean for Russian prestige in other areas. Vladimir Putins Kremlin made it clear again and again that if Georgia attacked South Ossetia, Russia would fight. Georgian advocates in the West claimed that Moscow was only bluffing. It wasnt.

Anatol Lieven is a professor at Kings College London and a senior Fellow of the New America Foundation in Washington DC. In 1990-96 he was a correspondent for The Times in the former Soviet Union, including Georgia

"The U.S. is not the primary target here, but the EU"

Not exactly. Again, Russia is saying, "you fuck with our energy suppliers and well fuck with yours." If this adminsitration continues to fuck around with Iran and other countries on their outskirts then Russia will deal with it through Georgia and probably elsewhere. The EU doesn't threaten Russia, but America's power THROUGH the EU does. Russia still sees it as "us vs. America". We decided at one point of time to declare victory over the Soviet Union but NOT Russia-- we instead decided to make that ill-fated step into the ME and then, when a blowback was encountered in the form of radical Islamic terrorism, tried to start and win a war against a TACTIC. Russia's enemies are more concrete, less ephemeral, and therefore more beatable.

Chess, pure and simple. Watch the moves the other side is making and wait, think, and then make your own. The problem is with our chessplayers is that they do not carry their own smarts-- they utilize advisers and ideologues and folks in the MSM to get their message out. That is our fundamental weakness-- we as a nation are only on the same page if the press and the govt says we are. And that togetherness, i.e." the idiotic "war on terror" is being proven an absolute and complete disaster on all fronts. We took our eyes of the prize and as a result we are extremely deficient in response strategy.

Russia is esentially saying it will be a long cold winter in Europe and elsewhere if something happens to Iran. They are also using the opportunity to settle a few long held grudges against former foes.

The photo they are circulating in the MSM and which is the main splash on Drudge is of a cowering Georgian president Saakashvili covered by his loyal bodyguards, looking like Saddam fresh out of a hole in the ground.

What a major fucking embarrassment.

FYI-

That is not only Russia's claim, but it's history since the first Czars. Indeed, from the Treaty of Nerchinsk in 1689 through the Russo-Japanese war and then the Cold War, Russia has been expanding in an effort to insulate "Mother Russia" (an area of about 500,000 sq. km. roughly centered a little east of Moscow) from aggressors and to provide resources. Anything outside that 700x700 km block is considered to be buffer space. Perhaps not surprisingly, that area is also considered to be "European Russia" and is roughly the distance between Moscow and Latvia, Lituania, Poland etc.

BTW, the Russians have just captured the city of Gori and this is af huge symbolic importance to them because
this
is
the
birthplace
of
Stalin...

Crispee-
Ho would you view a Democratic President who tanked the dollar, weakened us with exploding debt, alienated us from every Western power and saddled our military with an occupation of a country that was no threat to us, all under false pretenses?

Russia doesn't care what Bush says about this or anything else. Bush presented the world with our balls in a jar of formaldehyde, and you cheered.

Breaking news

Bush just gave a speech now in the Rose Garden saying he was "deeply concerned" that Russia "appeared to be widening the conflict." Bush said Russia had agreed to pull out its military and leave the region but that now it appears Russia is going to bomb one of Georgia's airports.

One big hoot -- Bush, with a straight face, said Russia has "no right to invade a soveign nation."

Maybe Putin should have said Georgia had al Qaeda, wmd's, bioweapons, chem weapons, and they would soon see the "shape of a nuclear cloud on the horizon." Worked for Bush when he lied to take us to war in Iraq.

Boyduhh-

I know the quote, but your focus should be on the rest of the bolded sentence:

I was able to get a sense of his soul; a man deeply committed to his country and the best interests of his country.

Lo and behold, Bush was right---Putin is committed to the best interests of his country, which is to smack down the breakaway former satellites who he feels threaten Russian security and soveriegnty.

KG-

Don't underestimate our ability to respond to threats in Europe, we still have tens of thousands of troops, tanks, airplanes and ships all through Europe that could bolster Tblisi if necessary. However, this is the EU's and NATO's fight (exclusive of US troops), not the US, and the Russians are working the back channels with the US State Department to ensure that it stays that way. We may not like it, but if we have to step in to ensure an independant Georgia, that will totally undercut the EU, NATO and the UN.

"Worked for Bush when he lied to take us to war in Iraq"

A liar only succeeds when he is surrounded by those gullible enough to believe him.

RightOCenter

Is Georgia actually a member of NATO at this time? I thought Bush was pushing for them to be a member but I don't think they are right now. I may be wrong.

Right0-
re: "Lo and behold, Bush was right---Putin is committed to the best interests of his country, which is to smack down the breakaway former satellites who he feels threaten Russian security and soveriegnty."

Do you call yourself a conservative? Really? 'Cause you look like an authoritarian to me, dude. Miss the old days of the Soviet Union? Seems you do. Maybe, with your political outlook, you could find a nice position in the new Soviet Union putting out propaganda for Putin's gov't, as the tanks roll...

"Don't underestimate our ability to respond to threats in Europe, we still have tens of thousands of troops, tanks, airplanes and ships all through Europe that could bolster Tblisi if necessary. However, this is the EU's and NATO's fight (exclusive of US troops), not the US, and the Russians are working the back channels with the US State Department to ensure that it stays that way. We may not like it, but if we have to step in to ensure an independant Georgia, that will totally undercut the EU, NATO and the UN."

I don't but I do understand that the American populace needs to be sold on ANY conflagration as well. Russia doesn't have that problem-- Putin is looked at by the majority of Russians as God, and today, perhaps even moreso.

Our country pussied out when it started to listen to the idealogical idiots who took our eyes off of the ball in play and instead directed us into presumptuous fantasies of holding onto the big trophy at the end of the game.

An army is only as strong as how well you utilize it, and how much strength it has in purpose, and how wise and prudent it is in applying overwhelming and brutal force. I can fall back upon quite a few postulations such as that, courtesy of my MSgt oh so long ago.

Chris-

They are not, but discussions have started to bring them into NATO. Russia could not allow that to happen, given Georgia's historical ties to Russia, which is a big part of the problem. Belarus, Ukraine and Georgia have long been seen as vital parts of a Greater Russia, and Russia has been furious over their (albeit slow) democratization over the past 15 years.

My guess is that Russia keeps pushing towards Tblisi unless and until someone sends troops to help out. If no one does, then Georgia again becomes a protectorate of Russia, and the other former satellites get really nervous.

A liar only succeeds when he is surrounded by those gullible enough to believe him.

Posted by k_g_beekeeper at 2008-08-11 05:34 PM |

You can say that twice (as many times as you voted for Bush?)

"That is not only Russia's claim, but it's history since the first Czars." - RoC

Note that Czarist Russia included, within itself, Ukraine, parts of the Baltic countries, Belarus, etc. Thus, whatever "buffer" they tried to create, it was beyond those countries. Where?

Per their press, per Putin, per Sergei Ivanov, this "Czarist Russia" (not the USSR because that was a commie state, haha) is what they are trying to recreate, though I still don't understand where that buffer is to be - Poland? Turkey? Finland? None of these countries is interested in being its "buffer". I do _not_ agree, nor does Sergei Ivanov, that they are trying to make their "near abroad" their buffer.

"Do you call yourself a conservative? Really? 'Cause you look like an authoritarian to me, dude. Miss the old days of the Soviet Union? Seems you do. Maybe, with your political outlook, you could find a nice position in the new Soviet Union putting out propaganda for Putin's gov't, as the tanks roll"

Advice-- Don't mistake astute analysis for siding with the enemy, BetelG.

Know thy enemy.

Rightocenter-
Damn! Are you already on the payroll?

Rightocenter-
re: "Don't underestimate our ability to respond to threats in Europe...."

Everyone else has, thanks to Bush.

"You can say that twice (as many times as you voted for Bush?"

I voted for Bush the first term but not the second. I voted Libertarian. I wanted McCain back in 2000 but being at that time a loyal Republican, I voted for the man-boy.

A liar only succeeds when he is surrounded by those gullible enough to believe him.

I didn't believe Bush about anything anymore starting around January 2003. I kept an open mind in the run up to the Iraq war but everything Bush and his Neocons threw out as "proof" hoping something would stick failed.

The coup de gras for me in finally knowing the so-called evidence for the war in Iraq was a lie was watching the live presentation by Colin Powell at the U.N. the day he showed the world some pen and ink sketches as "proof" of bio and chem labs in Iraq. What a joke. I always liked Powell but could never figure why he would allow himself to be used like that. He's been repenting ever since but too late now.

P.S. -- to my stalker (from DR) who posts as "CalifChris" over at FreeRepublic pretending to be me -- don't use any of my posts on this thread or anything else I posted today. You'll have to pay me by the word if you do. I've copyrighted myself. lol. Get your own stuff and stop copying mine, you scumy imposter. You know who you are.

KG-
Sorry. I'm getting a little irritated, to say the least. I shouldn't have directed it at you.

we still have tens of thousands of troops, tanks, airplanes and ships all through Europe that could bolster Tblisi if necessary.

hell of a long way away though.

"my stalker (from DR) who posts as "CalifChris" over at FreeRepublic ..." - CC

You don't strike me as having the kind of positions that would irritate someone that much. Is someone just trying to elevate you to the status of Nanc?

I didn't believe Bush about anything anymore starting around January 2003

I met Scott Ritter in October of 2000 and that changed me alot-- the meeting and his subsequent speech gave me the necessary understanding to say, "I can be Republican and still be wary and criticize the Trotskyist policies of those who now claim to be Republican." Still, I ended up voting for Dubya anyway the followuing month because I was still trapped in the "lesser of two evils" system of choosing between two parties.

When I mentioned I was in some enlisted activity during the 80s he told me, "thank you for your service" with a forcefulness that made me think about what he had to say afterwards about the Iraq invasion build-up for a long long time.

The thing that some are missing is that we are not in a position of strength, by any measure. We can do amazing things if we absolutely must, but our weak position makes those options much less likely, and in many cases, impossible. Enemies and erstwhile friends around the globe know this well.

Thank ya' Bush and the "patriots" he rode in on.

Boyduhh-

Reading is fundamental---just because I point out that Putin is committed to the best interests of his country doesn't mean that I agree with it. If you had bothered to read my other posts, you would have understood that Putin has a very Czarist outlook regarding the need for Russian expansion, which he believes to be in his country's best interest.

Personally, part of me thinks that Saakashvili tried to pick a fight that he couldn't win, and should have to fix this mess himself. However, that is probably not going to happen, and in the end a Fast Reaction Force may have to be sent by SOCEUR to help provide "security" in Tblisi, which would make Putin think twice about sweeping in and taking out Saakashvili.

"we still have tens of thousands of troops, tanks, airplanes and ships all through Europe that could bolster Tblisi if necessary."

Unfortunetely, we will do nothing. Re Russia, as always. And Russia will then show us the true significance of the "terrorist threat".

KG-
Well, he was about as right about it as someone could be.

Advice-- Don't mistake astute analysis for siding with the enemy, BetelG.

Know thy enemy.

Posted by k_g_beekeeper at 2008-08-11 05:43 PM

KG-

Don't worry about Boydbadweekbarneycooperbetelg, he gets frustrated easily.

FYI-

That 700 km included, on its outer edges Minsk (Belarus) and Kiev (Ukraine) as part of "Mother Russia", and many people who live in those cities still consider themselves to be "White Russians". It is the loss of these two satellites in particular that gall the Russians, and they will do most anything to stop their assimilation into the West.

FYI
CC - You don't strike me as having the kind of positions that would irritate someone that much. Is someone just trying to elevate you to the status of Nanc?

Posted by fyi at 2008-08-11 05:55 P

No, nanc had her own blog and someone just wanted to cause trouble on hers by pretending to be someone from here and they flamed her blog.

Mine was done by someone from DR just to be mocking and vindictive directly to me. Although he would never had known whether or not I would ever have seen it as I don't blog on FR so the whole thing is odd. Maybe to get a laugh at my expense with his buddies? Who knows.

Too long to go into but I wrote about it a lot on Saturday's Nooner -- the day I first dicovered it after finding the link to FR by accident via google. You can read about it on that Nooner = but fair warning! I was really angry and wrote some rather really lengthy posts about it. No, it was done for no other reason than to make fun of me, even using some specific personal info from my posts on DR and even portions of direct quotes from a couple of my posts on here as a way to specifically point to me. Just plain weird. I didn't know I ever did anything to make someone hate me so much. I'm really a pretty nice person :)

sorry about the use of italics -- that portion of my post is not a quote.

K.G. Beekeeper

I met Scott Ritter in October of 2000 and that changed me alot-- the meeting and his subsequent speech gave me the necessary understanding to say, "I can be Republican and still be wary and criticize the Trotskyist policies of those who now claim to be Republican." ...

I felt the same way about Ritter although I had only heard him speak as a guest on some talk radio shows. He impressed me a person of loyalty to our country who just did not like to see the direction we were going. I know he felt some affinity with the Iraqi people and as a weapons inspector himself knew the claims of wmds, etc. in Iraq were lies. The Bushies tried to rip his reputation to shreds but Ritter was right all along.

This is Bush's Chamberlain Moment.

Honor or Appeasement? The west is better prepared to face Russia than Britain was against Hitler at Munich.

"and they will do most anything to stop their assimilation into the West." - RoC

Yep, and I still stand by my belief that that "anything" is the recreation of the Russian empire.

OK, I don't understand. Are you trying to explain their position to me (thanks, but I already know it), are you trying to defend their "rights", or what?

CC, doesn't sound like something you need to get worked up about, IMO. Your copyrighting should stop the person cold ;)

This is Bush's Chamberlain Moment.

WW III on the horizon?

In Feb. 2006 explosions destroyed the natural gas pipeline from Russia into Georgia. That stopped the main energy source for much of Georgia and would have been a major catastrophe for them....except....a major gas line from Iran had just been reopened and plenty of gas was available in spite of the explosions. That is a fact. Putin was trying to force Georgia to be submissive to his will and Russia's and their reopening of the gas pipe line from Iran indicated that they were no longer subservient to Mother Russia.
This conflict is Putin telling Georgia that they have gotten just a little too independent and now they will be spanked.
The rise in oil prices probably did enable Putin to disregard the price of any foreign expedition. Wars do cost money.

CC, doesn't sound like something you need to get worked up about, IMO. Your copyrighting should stop the person cold ..

LOL

You have to admit it is weird -- especially when they had no idea I would ever even have seen it on FR so what's the purpose? But I was just making having fun and making a sarcastic joke about it on this thread now. Tongue in cheek, if you will, telling the stalker not to copy my stuff. Don't think any of my not too Bush-friendly posts on here today would get by FR's censor anyway, though. I've cooled off. :)

WW III on the horizon?

Naw, I think just an Appeasement Moment. It's easy to talk tough when you're dealing with an emeny who's armored divisions consist of aluminum foil covered camels, different when they got real weapons.

Of course, if Putin leaves a square inch of Georgia sovereign, the Fighty Rightys will declare it a great victory for Bush.

NG3-

I think it may be Sarkozy's Chamberlain moment, since the EU has the most to lose from a resurgent Russia. Other then that, I have to (gasp) agree with you.

This conflict is Putin telling Georgia that they have gotten just a little too independent and now they will be spanked.
The rise in oil prices probably did enable Putin to disregard the price of any foreign expedition. Wars do cost money.

So why did Russia wait and allow planes to be shot down and territory overrun by the Georgians? Why didn't he simply do what all you experts here claim he has been planning?

Funny how the Russians invade a former Soviet satellite and all the libs can talk about is Bush and the Rupublicans........... Amazing!

NG3-

As I said earlier, this isn't the US' fight, and by extension Bush's fight either. The US will put pressure, through the G7 (Russia is on the outside on this one) and the UN, to get a cease fire, and could airlift SF troops into Tblisi, if necessary, but that's about it. This is more of a test of the EU then anything else.

So why did Russia wait and allow planes to be shot down and territory overrun by the Georgians? Why didn't he simply do what all you experts here claim he has been planning?

Posted by crispee_oc at 2008-08-11 06:29 PM

Psst, it's called "pretext". Seriously, Putin needed a convenient excuse to pull the trigger so that he could claim some moral high ground. If Russia just invaded a former satellite without pretext, then NATO, the UN and the entire EU would definitely react. This way, with the blame on the Georgians, the EU is frozen, will only "demand" a withdrawl and would be hard pressed justifying to their citizens wholesale intervention. However, the oft cozy relations that many EU nations have developed over the past decade with Russia will be a little more strained, because they all remember the Soviet threat all too well.

Putin was not trying to fool the EU, the UN or anyone else. He was just trying to provide an alternative bull shit lie that could easily be presented as truth.

"If Russia just invaded a former satellite without pretext, then NATO, the UN and the entire EU would definitely react."

un-huh. NO. Ain't goning to happen.

In truth, what we ought to be realizing...all those millions (billions) haven't really strengthened our had against the USSR = Russia.
Come on folks, Putin came from the KGB!!!

Case in point: Western Democracies are impotent.

Russia knoes it.

Danni-

"an alternative bull shit lie that could easily be presented as truth" = pretext.

Without that pretext, the NATO countries would have a far stronger hand in standing up to Russia. With it, the governments of those countries are too afraid of the beating that they would take at the hands of the loyal opposition and the press to send troops to help out Georgia. Therein lies Putin's "brilliance", so to speak, since he understands the power of public opinion in European politics better then most.

Sadly, this guy nails it-

"....Regardless of what happens next, it is worth asking what the Bush people were thinking when they egged on Mikheil Saakashvili, Georgia's young, Western-educated president, to apply for NATO membership, send 2,000 of his troops to Iraq as a full-fledged U.S. ally, and receive tactical training and weapons from our military. Did they really think Putin would sit by and see another border state (and former province of the Russian empire) slip away to the West? If they thought that Putin might not, what did they plan to do about it, and how firmly did they warn Saakashvili not to get too brash or provoke an outburst?...."

But read the whole thing here:


www.slate.com

ROC,
Looks like you may be correct about this being a pretext. It looks like Russia may have goated the Gerogians. It seems funny they didn't shut off the tunnel Russia needed to move troops. It also seems strange Russia had about 120k soldiers ready and waiting to move.

Of course it was deliberate. Are you still debating that point as if it weren't stupid?

Russia chose to act, on its terms. What words will Bush forcefully say in protest? (sorry, but I have no patience or charity left for " W ... THE PRESIDENT")

Does this mean we get to annex Cuba?

McCains TOP foreign policy adviser is also a lobbyist for the Georgian govt.

I thought this said George Pulls out of Iraq.

I'll trade you Georgia for Cuba.

Deal or No Deal.

Wonder when we'll see the new Russian Bases in Central America, Venezeula and Cuba.

Will our counter move be attacking Iran?

Or will George do Nothing that's my gut reaction.
These guys better re read all of the Cold war battle plans because all we're doing is pulling out our people. Great Stategy George.
You want to be the sole super power. Act like it.

People need to wake up to the fact that the biased Western Media is spreading lies and DISINFORMATION to the American public. The Georgians provoked the conflict by attacking Russian peacekeepers, and commiting genocide against the people of South Ossetia. Human rights groups are flooding the area. They know the truth. The West is supporting another a 2 bit liar in Georgia. The Russians did the right thing. CNN caught spreading DISINFORMATION. www.youtube.com
www.youtube.com
www.youtube.com

CNN caught MISLEADING the public. www.infowars.com

People need to wake up to the fact that the biased Western Media is spreading lies and DISINFORMATION to the American public. The Georgians provoked the conflict by attacking Russian peacekeepers, and commiting genocide against the people of South Ossetia. Human rights groups are flooding the area. They know the truth. The West is supporting another a 2 bit liar in Georgia. The Russians did the right thing. CNN caught spreading DISINFORMATION.
www.youtube.com
www.youtube.com
www.youtube.com

"Wonder when we'll see the new Russian Bases in Central America, Venezeula and Cuba."

Won't be any. Russia is interested in recreating her former empire. And establishing their "sphere of influence" in as much of Europe as possible. But they are nowhere near to being able to extend themselves globally. And, in a few decades when their energy supplies dwindle, their country will also dwindle.

We have no need to get into another military endeavor, unless Russia takes over Georgia. Right now they are merely posturing where they can and trying to get as much as they can. And the real question is, not will we the US stand up to them, but will Western Europe.

I find it unbelievable that people in America are so brainwashed into believing that Russia was the one that provoke the conflict, when it was the Georgian military that started it by attacking Russian peacekeepers, and commiting genocide on the people of South Ossetia. The mainstream media, and the government could tell Americans any kind of lies, propaganda, or even lead them into World War 3, based on false pretenses, and most would follow the lies into hell. SO SAD..Saakashvili is nothing but a fascist dictator in his own country, and yet on the Western media he is paraded around as some kind of champion of Democracy. What a load of shit. There's so much bullshit about why the Russians invaded Georgia, when the real reason is, the one which the Media in America and the Western Europe, won't tell it's people.

www.antiwar.com
www.thenation.com
www.youtube.com
www.youtube.com
www.infowars.com

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