You just never know when it'll be you - whether it's at church, your home or the mall.

I feel like crap so didn't go to church today. I bet there were those who, for various random reasons, chose not to attend that TN service. What sort of feelings must they be feeling?

'I'll never go to church again'. 'It's ok, I was tired of the cannabalism anyway'.

Odd that it happened at an Unitarian church.

It's God's fault! You take it up with Him. It's His will that this happen and He has a plan for each of us and we humans can not comprehend His Divine Will.

Don't you people learn anything in church?!

I am not even a believer and I can come come up withe all kinds of religious cliches to explain why this happened. I should become a televangelist and meke lots of money.

god works in mysterious ways......

A little about the church...

Our members hold a variety of beliefs including Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Atheism, Agnosticism, Paganism, Humanism, and more.

Maybe the sermon sucked and he just could not take it anymore!

You know it's awful for the folks here at this church--just like it would be awful if it was at a school, a McDonalds, a Taco Bell, a Mall.

This is not God's will Member--but since you know so much you can retort yourself.

god works in mysterious ways......

Posted by briwo

Yes, and let's not forget the classic: He is testing our faith.

It's God's fault! You take it up with Him.

Posted by member2586 at 2008-07-27 06:14 PM | Reply

It's a Unitarian church, dumbass. Your chronic bigotry is only illuminated by your incredible ignorance of the topic

This is not God's will Member--but since you know so much you can retort yourself.

Posted by MURPHY

Now how would know if it's not God's will, Murph?

If it's good, it's God's will. If it's bad, it's not God's will. Is that how it works?

Alpha and Omega, good buddy.

In other words, Zed, the buck stops at the highest office.

You have contempt for complex systems.

I don't know where that came from?

No no no! Nothing more complex than reality. I've learned to live with what I can't change.

Reality is more than what your senses tell you, Ray. That's a given. What you've learned to live with is a certain idea in regards to that.

Ever play chess with yourself?

Yes reality is more than what my senses tell me. We are always making decisions with incomplete information. In any subject one can learn the skill of making reasonably accurate decisions on limited information.

I played chess a lot up to my twenties, then some computer chess later. Haven't played since.

I went to a service at this church once back in the 70s.

It's the VW bus, Volvo, save the whales crowd.

Everybody there would have made a good misfit in an ordinary crowd but all piled in togtether they looked just alike.

Honor Killings--

I don't know where that came from?

No no no! Nothing more complex than reality. I've learned to live with what I can't change.

Posted by Ray

I wish I could do the same, learning to tive with what I can't change. I might be more happy.

If you remove the words god and grame me, the sentiment of the following, the famous serenity prayer, is acatually right on.

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference." -- Reinhold Niebuhr

The Uitarian church is for people who don't golf on Sunday mornings.

But this was just another patriot exercising his Second Amendment rights while separating church from the state of living.

If it's good, it's God's will. If it's bad, it's not God's will. Is that how it works?

Posted by Ray at 2008-07-27 07:54 PM

Good question Ray--

Oohrah can probably provide a better answer.

In this thread-- it was the choice of will for the shooter that ended the life of one and wounded others--not God's.

As for "good things" coming from God's will-folks will attribute the good things to God's will, but that may not be really what is going on.

Member brings up the most "asked for" prayer.

It is perhaps not God who is granting the person to accept whatever, but providing the person with the opportunity to accept the courage, the grace, the wisdom, the serenity to accept the dilema.

By asking for the acceptance--God is granting the person the openness to accept what it is they are asking for (from an unbeliever perspective). It is all perception and if folks "perceive" God is granting the job, the money, the perseverance, whatever, then God listens.

God doesn't necessarily give folks "money", "a Job", "a better spouse" and the like.

But praying for the event can open the person to obtain those things--usually because they will be doing something to obtain it--making it more likely to achieve it. (From the un-believer perspective).

It is a matter of Faith--and God works in mysterious and wonderous ways. (From the person who believes and has Faith)

If you don't believe--your loss.

But for countless--millions and million of others--it is real and of Faith.

I tried to explain this to someone who does not Believe--such as yourself and also folks who do believe.

What i don't get is-if life is so short as compared to the everafter, why do Christians get so bent out of shape about somebody sending them, or their loved ones to God a little earlier than they planned? Seems to me, getting killed in Church would be the express lane to the golden gates, just as being killed by a jesus-less jihadi.

And yes, many Christains believe finding loose change under the couch is a prayer answered by God, but getting cancer is just the way it goes, or a test.

went to a service at this church once back in the 70s.

It's the VW bus, Volvo, save the whales crowd.

Everybody there would have made a good misfit in an ordinary crowd but all piled in togtether they looked just alike.

Posted by Mista Kurtz

I'll drive a VW bus, and also save the whales, but I'll be dammed to be seen in a Volvo.

There are some things you just don't do.

"but getting cancer is just the way it goes, or a test."

Worse yet, other people believe that if you get a disease or something bad happens to you it's a punishment. Imagine how psychologically damaging this kind of thinking is, you get cancer and you think, "well, I have sinned so therefore I am now being punished so that my soul might be saved."

Which brings me to your questiong about life being short. The reasone why xtians might be upset about people dying "earlier than planned" because they don't get to continue to be on earth, doing "the Lord's work." And the person who committed the murder, well, his soul is in jeopardy of not being saved and xtians want everyone's sould to be saved so they can go up instead of down when they die.

I don't know, NG3, maybe someone who actually believes can give you a better answer, what I am writing here I know because, well, leaving in the United States you come into contact with many people from different religions and you pick up what they say.

Different religions have different things to teach, it's the supernatural stuff that turns me off and the taking of the Bible and other sacred texts so literally.

I can't believe it. No one has blamed the NRA yet.

Well NG3 I'm not exactly your traditional Christian but I am a deist who was raised Methodist. I have already set aside money and instruction in my will to provide for a kick ass party. I do not belive death is all that terrible. Life should be lived and relished but death should not be a cause for fear or sadness.

As far as change in your couch thats not God, it was your change to start with.

Cancer is not god either for the most part we are finding cancer is caused by our degrading enviornment or things we do to ourselves. However on those occasions of spontaneous remision and other "miracles" some of those may be god deciding those people have not fulfilled their purpose. Maybe it's just luck, or maybe medical science is doing better than we though, or they have stronger immune systems or who knows.

"I am not even a believer and I can come come up withe all kinds of religious cliches to explain why this happened."

You sound like a non believer trying to quote scripture to fit some smart ass remark you feel you need to make about religion.

Do any of you think racism is dead? If so, why is it that this WHITE shooter gets bail, set at $1 million? If this was a black or hispanic, he could have burst into the church, shot every bullet he had without hitting a sole and today would be facing the death penalty. Boy, I tell you!

Here in California, this person as a matter of course would be denied the right to bail. Different jurisdictions, different laws.

"Different jurisdictions, different laws."

Different strokes for different folks?!?!

What if the shooter had been a Muslim? Whoud this have been considered and act of terrorism and would he have been shipped to Gtmo?

If someone in the congregation had only thought to bring a car antenna with him, this whole tragedy would have been averted.

Life should be lived and relished but death should not be a cause for fear or sadness.

Agreed. As a Christian, I still love and enjoy my life and those in it on this earth.

====

If it's good, it's God's will. If it's bad, it's not God's will. Is that how it works?

How about the converse of that modified a bit. If it's good, it because of luck or hard work. If it's bad, it's God's fault.

Big FF, Soheifox!

Anyone can be declared an unlawful enemy combatant and be held indefinitely without charges. For now. The Bush administration have done this even to a US citizen arrested on US soil (Jose Padilla). The Supreme Court has not ruled on it because after several years of driving the man insane in isolation, Bush decided to charge him with a crime so they could argue to the Supreme Court that the question of whether they had the power to completely ignore explicit and settled constitutional law (ie, a few of the first ten amendments), was therefore "moot". The Supreme Court accepted their argument and did not rule.

My 11:55 post was a reply to Member2586.

BETELG

A U.S. Court of Appeals just ruled week before last that an American citizen can be arrested on U.S. soil and held without charge indefinitely. The prisoner is not allowed to see the evidence against him if it's ruled 'secret'.

I'm sure this will go to the SC.

Not while Bush is President, I fear.

"Religion is the masterpiece of the art of animal training, for it trains people as to how they shall think." -- Arthur Schopenhauer

A second person died a little while ago.

Oohrah can probably provide a better answer.

So you're sure that it's not God's Will, but you can't explain why?

It works like this.

Gunman has had in his mind to shoot up the church. Well, God (seeing that he is omnipotent and omnicient) knows that the man is going to shoot up the church.

God has a choice. Stop the Gunman or allow him to proceed.

Stopping the gunman could have been done through any subtle manipulation of our world, but he didn't. Since he didn't we can come to one of two conclusions.

1. Either God allowed this to happen, thus making it his will, in order to teach something to the people of the church or someone involved or someone who reads about it.

2. Or. God doesn't exist.

--

Perhaps it was more along this line.

A preacher once told me that if you ask for God to grant you patience, he will give you something in your life to make you learn patience.

This had to opposite effect on me that it should have. I learned to not ask God for shit.

If we only allowed the pastors and alter assistants to carry weapons this tragedy could have been prevented.

"I learned not to ask God for shit...."

I can't help but ask---What'd you get instead?

"God has a choice....Either to stop the gunman or allow him to proceed...."

He also had the choice to stop the heroes that restrained this man, or allow them to proceed.

But they were making choices all around, weren't they? So much for a deterministic universe. Hooray for a universe beyond dumb cause and effect.

..."1. Either God allowed this to happen, thus making it his will, in order to teach something to the people of the church or someone involved or someone who reads about it.

2. Or. God doesn't exist." - AXIOM

AX nailed it. For those who believe in God, the first explanation is correct, in my opinion. Same thing for someone gettig cancer, or a young person dying in a tragic car wreck, etc. It's the "why do bad things happen to good people" question.

Sin came into the world (Adam & Eve) and God has allowed Satan dominion here on earth. If it's God's will to halt something bad, He'll do so. How many of us know someone who was "supposed" do die, but doctors couldn't explain their recovery?

A doctor in our church worked in a VA clinic. A crazed gunman came in and started shooting. The doc instinctively shielded the nurse(s) and then went after the gunman. The guy landed multiple bullets and the doc was near death. Doctors considered it a miracle he lived. A lukewarm Christian prior, since then the doc has fully turned over his life to Christ and gives talks to groups about his powerful testimony.

Same thing, I understand, for the nurse and others surrounding the incident. One can only guess the effect the doc's talks have had on those in attendance.

Another story - a friend of our sons at church died in a car wreck just over one year ago. I posted the story and commented on how a "sermon" was preached to the hundreds of young adults at the church's funeral ceremony. (It received the usual responses from the usual DR folks)

Well, the mother spoke from the pulpit one year later (I think it was late May)... the incident has moved her much closer to God... the same for her other children... and, though she didn't recite a specific number she spoke of quite a few kids who'd told her they'd gotten to know more about Christianity via Jacob's death than they'd ever gotten prior - prompting some to become Christians themselves.

To the Godless, no event whether good or bad has meaning. Oh, they allow that humans can create meaning. But this creation is lipstick on the empty pig from their point of view. That is, the meaning assigned by humans to things is actually in itself meaningless.

So, the godly are forever debating the whys and wherefores of tragedies, but the ungodly never do. For that matter, the godly might debate whether it is worthwhile to get out of bed in the morning, whereas if the ungodly do that they are being----Inconsistent.

He also had the choice to stop the heroes that restrained this man, or allow them to proceed.

so it was god's choice and not the hero's so much for self determination, wish he determined I would love him and see eternal life

A lukewarm Christian prior, since then the doc has fully turned over his life to Christ and gives talks to groups about his powerful testimony.

I am sure the 2 dead guys were happy to be used as tools to make other people more religous.

zed practices "whyism". the belief that their search for truth is somehow better than others.

To the Godless, no event whether good or bad has meaning. Oh, they allow that humans can create meaning. But this creation is lipstick on the empty pig from their point of view. That is, the meaning assigned by humans to things is actually in itself meaningless.

So, the godly are forever debating the whys and wherefores of tragedies, but the ungodly never do. For that matter, the godly might debate whether it is worthwhile to get out of bed in the morning, whereas if the ungodly do that they are being----Inconsistent.

Posted by Zed

Wow, Zed, and you claim to respect non-believers... "the godless".

I would say that none of the non-believers I know look at the world in the manner you attribute to them. This view is representative of only a small portion of those whom are without faith, according to how you would likely define it.

Well, Hagbard---Some believe in God and some don't. Why that simple statement is a sign of disrespect(to other than someone who wants to fight) I don't know.

So, the godly are forever debating the whys and wherefores of tragedies, but the ungodly never do.

well golly gee, I guess i can go back to sleep now

Some believe in God and some don't. Why that simple statement is a sign of disrespect(to other than someone who wants to fight) I don't know.

Posted by Zed

Because it demeans meaning as others may find it and elevates yours to the only one of value. that's textbook disrepect.

You don't even realize how judgmental and hypocrital you are with your pronouncements about others.

But they were making choices all around, weren't they? So much for a deterministic universe. Hooray for a universe beyond dumb cause and effect.

When you and the folks like you stop using God as an excuse for the things that you do or the things that happen in the world, we'll move beyond cause and effect.

I don't claim that God caused these things to happen or allowed them to happen. It's christians who will be the first to say that God was trying to teach people a lesson. It's christians who will say that God intends for people to use the situation to make themselves stronger.

All you have to do is look at Oorah's post to see it. You, sir, are in the minority.

I guess it doesn't fit into your own specific doctrine, so it can't possibly be the case. Whether you like it or not though, Christians see things like this as tests.

In life, I avoid people with personalities like this because they alway seem to be out for their own gratification and glorification. Why should I worship a deity of the same personality who may not even exist?

hypocrital = hypocritical

BREAKING: The guy with the gun was there to kill liberals. Rush, Sean, O' Reilly, Rove and Fox News - congratulations. The pods are opening. Your murdering foot soldiers are awakening. You must be so proud.

The shooting occurred during a children's performance of "Annie." And I thought I hated musicals...

BREAKING: The guy with the gun was there to kill liberals.

A liberal church? The Modern Day Taints?

"A liberal church? The Modern Day Taints?"
======================

Why not? There are socially acceptable "black" churches right?

The guy with the gun was there to kill liberals.

Low-opportunity targets, as they're first and fastest to run and scatter.

Yes, the shooter was upset with the church's "liberal social stance," specifically its support of womens' and gay rights.

There is a certain undercurrent of right-wing-dings who wholly believe that the world's problems are due to liberals. Right wing punditry creates and or feeds this belief. But a screwball like this guy would have probably gone off over something else had he not chosen this particular battle.

But this makes a good case for inciteful rhetoric, no?

Hate-Crime Investigation After Cops Say Church Shooting Suspect 'Hated' Gays, Liberals

And the left is the party of hate.

Uh huh.

"It appears that what brought him to this horrible event was his lack of being able to obtain a job, his frustration over that and his stated hatred of the liberal movement," Owen said at a news conference.

I guess it never occurred to him that being a fucking crazy bastard was to blame for him not getting a job.

It is always the other guys fault according to the right.

The Rush Limbaugh's of this world are inciting violence against gays and "liberals".

Its enough to make the greedfuckers paying him $400 million proud.

To quote Chris Rock, "What ever happened to crazy?"

Why do we always have to assume there is a logical motive? Some people just have bad wiring!

It'd be a safe bet that this loser is both a Limbaugh listener and Bush voter. He blames "libruls and gays" for his failures. Of course.

"A large segment of Limbaugh's audience consists of white males, 18 to 34 years old, without college education. Basically, a guy I know and grew up with named Bubba.

Bubba listens to Limbaugh because Limbaugh gives him someone to blame for the fact that Bubba is getting screwed. He's working harder, getting paid less in constant dollars and falling further and further behind. Not only is Bubba never gonna be able to buy a house, he can barely afford a trailer. Hell, he can barely afford the payments on the pickup.

And because Bubba understands he's being shafted, even if he doesn't know why or how or by whom, he listens to Limbaugh. Limbaugh offers him scapegoats. It's the "feminazis." It's the minorities. It's the limousine liberals. It's all these people with all these wacky social programs to help some silly, self-proclaimed bunch of victims. Bubba feels like a victim himself--and he is--but he never got any sympathy from liberals."

The late, great Molly Ivins.

"Low-opportunity targets, as they're firtook the first shot, st and fastest to run and scatter."

Yep, a big strong dude put his body in front of the dammed christofacist to protect the others took the first shot.

And a college professor had him tackeled in seven seconds.

It is the pussy conservatards who are afraid of their shadows and need to cling to their guns.

The Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church describes itself on its website as working for social change since the 1950s, including desegregation, racial harmony, fair wages, women's rights and gay rights

what a horrible horrible place

"To the Godless, no event whether good or bad has meaning."

Or....you are too shallow to be able to understand how they get meaning without belief in a mysterious super being. Don't blame them, look to yourself.

**** Now how would know if it's not God's will, Murph?
If it's good, it's God's will. If it's bad, it's not God's will. Is that how it works?
....Posted by Ray ******

........yup......when we kill a Taliban its the will of God......

.....when they shoot one our boys...the bastards got lucky....

A neighbor told 10News Adkisson described himself as a "Confederate" and a "believer in the old South." She says Adkisson self-identified in this way to her on more than one occasion, but that she didn't know what he meant by it.

maybe it was the church's support for desegregation

SO basically it is a church in name only. Why doesn't anyone understand that a church is a place where "two or more gather in my name"...Why do people always turn them into some political front. Is it only to get tax exempt status. This guy was a nut and killed people, doesn't matter who they were or what they believed. I always love this hate crime crap. If a white guy mugs me and pistol whips me, is it not a hate crime because I am white. I don't know anyone who doesn't commit a crime who is not full of hate...Hate Crime stuff is just another way to say, this person is more important that you..

I thought it was weird that the church was Unitarian. It's a really sad sign of the times that a liberal church is targeted for its views.

SO basically it is a church in name only. Why doesn't anyone understand that a church is a place where "two or more gather in my name"...Why do people always turn them into some political front.

That's a ridiculous statement. The Unitarian church goes back to the 18th century in the U.S. The pursuit of social justice and religious tolerance for all faiths has been a core principle of the church for centuries.

If there is a god, s/he without a doubt gave man the capacity for freewill. The holy rollers that run around saying that everything is god's will, sound like idiots. If there is a god, s/he left us to our own devices a very long time ago.

Im sure that would be HBJ's attitude if some liberal whacko started shooting up one of those evangelical uberchurch gatherings.

Social justice and religious tolerance....Jesus would never go along with crazy ideas like that!

The Unitarian church goes back to the 18th century in the U.S.

Many of our forefathers were essentially Unitarian.

Kemper said the gunman shouted before firing. "It was hateful words. He was saying hateful things," she said, but refused to elaborate.

that should be interesting once that comes out

Friends of McKendry, who with his wife had recently taken in a foster child, said he was friendly with everyone.

"He did obviously stand up and put himself in between the shooter and the congregation," Schera Chadwick said.

here for all you to see is a real hero

It's a really sad sign of the times that a liberal church is targeted for its views.

I know, right.

Like here:

Chief Sterling Owen said today that police found a letter in the car of Jim Adkisson, who was tackled and held by members of the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church after the Sunday morning attack.

Owen said Adkisson was apparently frustrated over being out of work and had a "stated hatred of the liberal movement."

Schera Chadwick has a nice name.

To the Godless, no event whether good or bad has meaning. Oh, they allow that humans can create meaning. But this creation is lipstick on the empty pig from their point of view. That is, the meaning assigned by humans to things is actually in itself meaningless.

So, the godly are forever debating the whys and wherefores of tragedies, but the ungodly never do. For that matter, the godly might debate whether it is worthwhile to get out of bed in the morning, whereas if the ungodly do that they are being----Inconsistent.

Posted by Zed at 2008-07-28 09:38 AM | Reply |

You've proven what most atheists and agnostics think of the deeply religious, those that believe in an interventionist god: they are stupidly simple and incapable of critical thought. If anything, people not locked into a pre-determined dogma or stuck with pre-established tenets will have a tendency to question, to explore, to seek different answers instead of believing "because god said so".

So nothing to see hear.

Let's wait for the crazy white guy to shoot up a bunch of hippies in their church.

Okay, now we gotta problem.

Posted by Pinche_Mao at 2008-07-28 01:42 PM | Reply |

Yeah, those two situations are almost identical. Why don't you compare a firefly to a unicorn while you're at it. Putz.

Either God allowed this to happen, thus making it his will, in order to teach something to the people of the church or someone involved or someone who reads about it.

God gave us free will.

I listened to Rush for an hour today. I'm sorry, but this "liberals are the cause of all evil" 24/7 stuff has to end.

Are we not all Americans first?

Before the Rush fans jump in I'd like to point out that right wing radio has been preaching this stuff for many years. This is one reason NeoCons are held in contempt by the 'left'. Not because of Republican political ideology. Because of the chasms right wing radio has created right here in our own country between fellow Americans. It's shameful, and hurtful as this man proved.

"Let's wait for the crazy white guy to shoot up a bunch of hippies in their church.

I bet those hippies pray for people like Pinche who have more in common with the shooter than the congregants.

I guess the murderers in this case were aggrieved "victims" of George Bush's war-mongering policies, brown, oppressed, and lashing out the only way they knew how at a century of exploitation and Orientalism by the Anglo capitalist power-structure.

Ever get tired of arguing with straw men, Pinche?

There isn't a person here who would defend the terrorists who bombed Orthodox Christian churches in Iraq.

I'm still deciding if I'm going to:

a) Use this tragedy to make a point concerning regligion.

b) Use this tragedy to bash liberals.

c) Accuse the Unitarians of not being a real church.

d) Blame Rush.

I want to point out to Pinche that there were over two million Christians in Iraq who worshiped freely and without retribution before we invaded.

We also stood by while Israel bombed Lebanon for 2 weeks. They have the highest percentage of Christians in any ME country.

regligion = religion

The shooting occurred during a children's performance of "Annie." And I thought I hated musicals...

The sun'll come oooooouuut tommorow... Whaa?! ZOMG!! Put that down!!!

** screams and the sound of clip emptying **

/too soon?

Annie got her gun?

//Will stop now.

So a gay-bashing, liberal hating, gun-toting reichwing maniac goes apeshit in a church and starts firing indiscriminantly.

Which is odd cos it was his usual MO to discriminate against folks.

Banner Headline?

God, Guns, and Gays getting together as a trifecta of issues aint news.

Hate from the right aint news.

It's just the way it is.

Sad is that.

Be Well.

There isn't a person here who would defend the terrorists who bombed Orthodox Christian churches in Iraq.

That's not the point.

Extremists shoot up churches all the time.

But it doesn't really become a "really sad sign of the times that a church is targeted for its views" until a bunch of hippies get it in their "church".

Owen said Adkisson was apparently frustrated over being out of work and had a "stated hatred of the liberal movement."

.....if he thought that getting work was hard before.......

......how is this going to look on his resume ?....

Pinche, take a hint: You made a fool of yourself with that statement so just let it go.

That's BS, Pinche. I would regard it as a sad sign of the times if a conservative-hating crackpot shot up a Southern Baptist church.

One of George Carlin's "quiet ones," no doubt.

I would regard it as a sad sign of the times if a conservative-hating crackpot shot up a Southern Baptist church.

Why, of course you would.

He went by the handle SEANR on Drudge Retort.

But it doesn't really become a "really sad sign of the times that a church is targeted for its views" until a bunch of hippies get it in their "church".

Posted by Pinche_Mao at 2008-07-28 02:07 PM |

Strike two bozo. You're comparing a country that has centuries of conflict between religious factions, usually settled by violence, to a lone rightwing crackpot going nuts in suburban america. It's called, context. Look it up.

A tragedy, no doubt, but at least this guy is in custody and will have to pay for his actions, unlike most of these fucktards who also off themselves.

Obviously this guy is in the closet. He figures gays must go to the hell so now he will too. He figures he can spend eternity with his hero's Ted Haggard and Larry Craig.

Perhaps the second amendment does guarantee the right to own fire arms but with certain limitations....like NO RIGHT WING LUNATICS get to own guns!!!!!

Why, of course you would.

Posted by Pinche_Mao

Atta-boy Pinche, deflect and weave straw, it IS what you do best.

The man accused of a mass church shooting this morning was described by his Powell neighbors as a helpful and kind man, but one who had issues with Christianity.

...

"He had his own sense of belief about religion, that's the impression I got of him," said neighbor Karen Massey. "We were talking one day when my daughter graduated from Bible college, and I told him I was a Christian, then he almost turned angry.

I don't get it. How did liberals and gays keep this guy from getting a job???

If anything, it wasn't the liberals (usually associated with Democrats) who've outsourced
3 million jobs American jobs overseas. That's all due to Bush's disasterous and unfaird free trade policies.

Things don't seem to be going well in our country, do they?

Where are all the turds who are going to keep babbling on that "Liberalism is a mental disorder".

I guess trying to gun down a church full of them isn't a mental disorder, but 'god given choice AND calling'.

But it doesn't really become a "really sad sign of the times that a church is targeted for its views" until a bunch of hippies get it in their "church".

Posted by Pinche_Mao at 2008-07-28 02:07 PM |

It wasn't just the hippies. Don't forget, your fellow Klansmen used to burn the black churches too!

too many typos = time for second cup of morning coffee

Hey...this guy probably just recently converted to Islam, that's all: That makes it all OK. As soon as we get Sharia laws passed, he'll be released...lots of others too.

Where are our more sputtering right-wingers, the SeanRs, Billy El Cids and sham paratroopers this morning? As someone pointed out earlier, they grant these folks bail in Tennessee.

I mourned with fellow Unitarians at poolside yesterday afternoon. If it matters, the murders were at a theatrical, not a church service. The difference surely eluded the shooter.

Was reminded of another UU victim of such loonies, a 72-year-old retired air force lifer named Joe, murdered at a Florida clinic along with two medical staffers. He was - like me - a volunteer who escorted women past harassing phalanxes of bloody fetus photo wavers.

I greeted folks at a joint ACLU-Democratic Club meeting at our UU church last week, reminding them that the worst thing anyone has found against president-to-be O'Bama is that his grannie attended a "left-leaning" Unitarian church. Ours leans left because it's near falling down. herm

"Where are our more sputtering right-wingers, the SeanRs, Billy El Cids and sham paratroopers this morning?"

Out hunting hippies.

I'm sure the headline will be promptly updated the rest of his dislikes...

Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2008-07-28 02:29 PM | Reply

You mean like this:

Church Killer Hated Liberals, Gays [,Going to Church, and Christianity]

A tragedy, no doubt, but at least this guy is in custody and will have to pay for his actions, unlike most of these fucktards who also off themselves.

Posted by evashogouki at 2008-07-28 02:21 PM

Will the dems make sure he has a right to vote?

"Will the dems make sure he has a right to vote?"

What does that mean? Can you please provide me with an example of two of this, as I've not heard of this trait before?

"I am sure the 2 dead guys were happy to be used as tools to make other people more religous." - TRUTH

Since they're dead I think we'd have a hard time getting much commentary from them. But if dead people can vote, then anything's possible!

In my view, those who died are heroes. If they'd been my spouse or relative, as a Christian once I got past the initial shock I'd probably have two basic ways to view it.

1. View the glass as half full: he died a tragic death and because of his death others could live. Besides, he is now in a better place. No one is guaranteed tomorrow.

2. The half empty glass: Anger, resentment. Why does God let horrible things like this happen to good people?

Things happen to us throughout our life, our job, our relationships. How we process & deal with these events says much about our overall outlook on life... regardless of where we stand spiritually.

Crispee,

He's not a Democrat, can vote until he's convicted, and probably votes in JESTGETTINGALONG'S East Tennessee precinct to boot.

If this fucker gets put away for 30 years (or whatever the judge deems necessary) why shouldn't he be able to vote, after making his penance to society?

Not that I don't think this asswipe doesn't deserve to die, but why should anyone who has served their punishment continue to be punished?

Or, are you just trying to find something negative to slander "libruls" with?

Where are our more sputtering right-wingers, the SeanRs, Billy El Cids and sham paratroopers this morning?

~Herm.

Out hunting hippies

~Danni.

Hippy season?

YEAH!

I told you all it was only a matter of time before the Religious Extremists in this country would Take the Presidents Legitimization of Religious Radicals as an effective means of conveying ideas and start Strapping Bombs to their persons.

Where are our more sputtering right-wingers, the SeanRs, Billy El Cids and sham paratroopers this morning?--

Why they are on another thread demanding we Bomb Someone Elses Nutjobs before its too late!

i believe the guy was a truck driver and was out of work, high fuel prices? now who is to blame for that?

must be the unitarians

"He's not a Democrat, can vote until he's convicted, and probably votes in JESTGETTINGALONG'S East Tennessee precinct to boot."

HA...if he'd walked into a church in THIS county with a shotgun, we'd be having just ONE funeral today...HIS.

You mean like this:

Church Killer Hated Liberals, Gays [,Going to Church, and Christianity]

Posted by anton

Something like that.

Unfortunately, it would be more difficult to fit him into a convenient box to make those oh-so important "points" with.

Let's all write more stupid comments to justify how an insane person doing insane things fits into their own political ideological box.

You know, thinking about it, there have been quite a few of these rampages at churches, maybe going to church is becoming too dangerous. Probably ought to sleep in like I do.

After reading all the comments about gods will and liberals etc... I am left with one nagging question...

What is a hippy in the year 2008? I used to know what a hippy was but somehow it don't seem to apply anymore.

AXIOM:
"When you and the folks like you stop using God as an excuse for the things that you do or the things that happen in the world, we'll move beyond cause and effect.

I don't claim that God caused these things to happen or allowed them to happen. It's christians who will be the first to say that God was trying to teach people a lesson. It's christians who will say that God intends for people to use the situation to make themselves stronger.

All you have to do is look at Oorah's post to see it. You, sir, are in the minority."

AX, is the "you" in your last sentence referring to ZED or me? And the minority of what? Of Christians or of the entire US population?

I was offering my opinion on how I'd view it as a Christian. Nothing perjorative against non-believers. Go back and reread my 9:26am post.

There is much that all of us as humans don't and won't understand relative to God. For those who choose to believe we can read His word and try to decipher its meaning for how it plays out in our life. But we'll never fully understand everything.

This killer, if I read the follow up story correctly, apparently has/had problems with Christianity in the broader context. From the article, "Karen Massey, who lived two houses from Adkisson's home, told the Knoxville News Sentinel of a lengthy conversation she had with Adkisson a couple years ago after she told him her daughter had just graduated from Johnson Bible College. She said she ended up having to explain to him that she was a Christian.

"He almost turned angry," she told the newspaper. "He seemed to get angry at that. He said that everything in the Bible contradicts itself if you read it."

Massey said Adkisson talked frequently about his parents, who "made him go to church all his life. ... He acted like he was forced to do that."

"What is a hippy in the year 2008? I used to know what a hippy was but somehow it don't seem to apply anymore." - LIP

Knoxville is a little too PC for those of us farther East. We're wondering if they're gonna charge this guy with a "hate crime." After all, they let THESE folks slide. Didn't hear much about any of it in the news either.

Strike two bozo. You're comparing a country that has centuries of conflict between religious factions, usually settled by violence, to a lone rightwing crackpot going nuts in suburban america.

*bzzt*

No, you silly Canadian twat. I'm comparing two instances of extremist whack jobs murdering people in their places of worship.

Then I'm highlighting this fake fucking outrage based solely on the demographics of the victims and the killers.

You people remind me of a bunch of yardbirds that scratch around in the grass until you find a bug to eat---and then gather 'round, it pissing on yourselves.

*cluck* *cluck* *BWAK* *BWAK*

""Greg McKendry stood in the front of the gunman and took the blast to protect the rest of us," Barbara Kemper said.

McKendry's foster son Taylor Bessette watched it happen.

"He stood in front of the bullets between the child and the gunman and actually took the bullets to save the child," said Bessette.""

Probably we should pay more attention to the hero and less to the shooter. That Mr. McKendry is a true hero. There is no greater sacrifice one can make. I doubt anyone's political view point is a consideration at times like that.

"He stood in front of the bullets between the child and the gunman and actually took the bullets to save the child," said Bessette.""

Probably we should pay more attention to the hero and less to the shooter. That Mr. McKendry is a true hero. There is no greater sacrifice one can make. I doubt anyone's political view point is a consideration at times like that.

Thank you. I agree absolutely.

Incidentally, someone up there asked why Christians mourn the passing of a loved one - because after all, that person's going to a better place.

Very simply: because that person is someone that the Christian loved, and because that person isn't there anymore. And because the Christian is human and flawed, they most certainly can celebrate a person's passing on to the afterlife .. while weeping for the loss of them here.

"""No, you silly Canadian twat. I'm comparing two instances of extremist whack jobs murdering people in their places of worship."""

Are you so fucking stupid that you can't understand context? Try reading slower...You're original post was a whining little diatribe comparing shit going down in iraq with what happened in your backyard, then moaning about coverage.

Scratched a little, did find a bug, but pissed on it and its failed logic instead of eating it.

Bwaak indeed.

You're writing style reminds of someone.

"There is no greater sacrifice one can make."

I just wanted to see that again.

Funny how liberals and conservatives don't disagree on that.

Axiom-
re: "A preacher once told me that if you ask for God to grant you patience, he will give you something in your life to make you learn patience.

This had to opposite effect on me that it should have. I learned to not ask God for shit."

I had a fortune cookie once that informed me that I would soon meet a wiser man. I was extra cautious for the next week.

It'd be a safe bet that this loser is both a Limbaugh listener and Bush voter. He blames "libruls and gays" for his failures.

Anyone else see the irony here? BiBL says this madmand blames gays. But BiBL cites Rush and Bush.

I hate cliches, but really -- you can't make this stuff up.

Are you so fucking stupid that you can't understand context?

Except "context" isn't something you get to pull from your ass. I'm comparing two instances of extremist whack jobs murdering people in their places of worship. Nothing more and nothing less.

You're original post was a whining little diatribe comparing shit going down in iraq with what happened in your backyard, then moaning about coverage.

My orginal post was a comparison of two instances of extremist whack jobs murdering people in their places of worship, and the ensuing fake outrage that accompanied one instance but not the other.

Now go stroke your 3" Canadian prick while you mull the concept over again---you ignorant liberal fuck.

Church shootings aren't always by madmen who claim to hate liberals and gays. But if it is a madman who hates liberals and gays, we can depend on people like rcade to make an extra special deal out of and stir up hatred. In most of these incidents, more than two people were killed. I wonder why they weren't deserving of rcade's headline?

Church shootings aren't always by madmen who claim to hate liberals and gays. But if it is a madman who hates liberals and gays, we can depend on people like rcade to make an extra special deal out of and stir up hatred.

Thank you for saying in two sentences what I can't seem to say in 10 posts.

Thank you.

I'm sure that there are a thousand nuances and political points underlying all of this, but damn.

A man stood in front of the bullets.
Another tackled the shooter.

That is the story.

When was the last time there was a psycho shooting people at a church? I can't remember it ever happening here in the U.S. Of course this story is newsworthy. It just pisses you right wingers off that it was one of your own who defiled God's House in this instance. Now I realize that doesn't people like Pinche and Goatman from whining...

so it was god's choice and not the hero's so much for self determination, wish he determined I would love him and see eternal life

Posted by truthhurts at 2008-07-28 09:52 AM

I like thinking for myself thank you very much...

Where are our more sputtering right-wingers, the SeanRs, Billy El Cids and sham paratroopers this morning?"

It was revealed that Adkisson had been a member of the 101st Airborne...

At first I thought it was Rob da Pooper Scooper finally gone off the deep end of the pool but now I think we know where the "sham paratrooper" fondly known as the Chairpoodle is...

That is the story.

No, unfortunately, its not.

The story---the Dancing Banana Threshold---is that the shooter supposedly hated liberals and queers, so he shot up a church frequented by liberals and queers.

Everything is perfect.

The victims.

The perp.

Its ideological porn for the mouth-breathing left.

*cluck* *cluck* *BWAK* *BWAK* *cluck*

Goatman,

The fat drug abuser has been spewing hate speech for 20 years or so now. He targets gays, women, 13-year old girls, drug abusers(there's some real irony for you) and liberals and anybody and anything else that doesn't agree his warped vision of how America should be. Bush demagogued gay marriage to get his worthless and useless ass into the White House for a second term. This guy exhibits all the social dysfunction that makes him a lucrative target for both both of them.

Goatman, here ya go, blog away.

This is clearly a case of RCade's bias.
Come on, man, get a grip.
When Joseph Smith was harrassed by Democrats and blown to bits in the Nauvoo jail, did RCade give it anything like this play?
No, you bet your booties he didn't.
Q.E.D.
~SeanR

"*cluck* *cluck* *BWAK* *BWAK* *cluck*"
======================

I hate libs too.

Except I don't shoot them.

FACT!

When was the last time there was a psycho shooting people at a church?

LOL You really should've read my link before you posted that. There were two last year, the last one less than a year ago. Three died in that one. Hitting the Boone's Farm again as you admitted to doing last night?

I can't remember it ever happening here in the U.S

I'd recommend getting checked for Alzheimer's

Read the link on my 4:28, m8

Thank you for saying in two sentences what I can't seem to say in 10 posts.

Posted by Pinche_Mao at 2008-07-28 04:32 PM

so are you trying to say that if it wasn't for the good folks like RCADE this would not be a story?

please try again...

this IS a sad sign of the times friend.

THIS is the result of all that HATE that YOU and those LIKE you spew.

I hope you have enjoyed it. YOU caused it.

Not the hippies...

Not the Libruls...

Not the Gays...

YOU...and RUSH and "Focus on the Family" and all the those rabid evangelicals...

did you enjoy the fruits of your labors?

We are reaping what you have sown.

The fat drug abuser has been spewing hate speech for 20 years or so now. He targets gays, women, 13-year old girls, drug abusers(there's some real irony for you) and liberals and anybody and anything else that doesn't agree his warped vision of how America should be. Bush demagogued gay marriage to get his worthless and useless ass into the White House for a second term. This guy exhibits all the social dysfunction that makes him a lucrative target for both both of them.

???

That's wonderful. I still think the irony in your post I cited is priceless.

"*cluck* *cluck* *BWAK* *BWAK* *cluck*"
======================

I hate libs too.

Except I don't shoot them.

FACT!

Posted by James_Dean at 2008-07-28 04:44 PM |

Your one trick bullshit is getting really old. Mix up some Tang and go watch TV, dear.

"It just pisses you right wingers off that it was one of your own who defiled God's House in this instance."

Posted by moder8

A normal person would read it and think it's awful news.

It takes a special kind of stupid to think these kinds of stories are about whatever political leanings the shooter had.

Its ideological porn for the mouth-breathing left.

Okay, so that angle of it's porn: notable for its sensation, not its substance.

I'll take the side of it that's more substantial, thanks. *g*

"It takes a special kind of stupid to think these kinds of stories are about whatever political leanings the shooter had."

What if he had been Muslim?(Seriously...what would you think, at first blush?)

Goatman,

RCADE did not start this thread.

What is your beef with him over this?

As found on FOXnews: (bolded headline)
Cops: Church Shooter 'Hated' Gays

Moder8 started a thread you should check out:

Why are there so many whining pussies at Drudge?

You might be able to provide some insightful answers!

It's been several months or more ago... I think the last church shooting on the DR involved member(s) of the congregation with their own weapon and eventually killed the shooter.

This guy had snapped mentally. Doesn't matter his faith, politics, etc. Like the person who hears voices or sees demons - and then goes out to kill based on it.

No normal, God-loving, sane Christian is going to walk into a church and begin shooting. No matter what type of church. Same thing for the non-Christian: none of sound mind is going to do what this guy did.

This shooter has some serious mental/psychological issues which might have been heightened by drug abuse or other factors.

To conveniently pin this on Limbaugh, Bush or whomever is mistaken in my view. The same was tried by Clinton against Rush when McVey bombed Oklahoma City.

It was revealed that Adkisson had been a member of the 101st Airborne

Guess the DR finally got to Chair.

RCADE did not start this thread.

What is your beef with him over this?

???

I know that. Do you really not get it? Are you that confused?

Re-read my post. Entire thing. Pay particular attention to the sentence with the word 'headline'.

Uh-oh.

No more Dancing Banana Treatment.

"What if he had been Muslim?(Seriously...what would you think, at first blush?)" BET

I must admit I'd think it was some crazy Muslim acting out what he thinks is his duty - killing infidels. Note, though, that I used the word "crazy" because for anyone to purposefully walk into a building full of innocent people and randomly begin blasting is the mark of a crazy person.

BET- If he were Muslim, what would YOU think, at first blush?

Sorry GM, but you are just bitching. Bitching to bitch.

Nothing more.

Carry on.......bitch, bitch, bitch.......

Thanks Oohrah for the reminder to check out that Honor Killing thread for hints of hypocricy.....

RCADE did not start this thread.

What is your beef with him over this?

Manypaths: Are you really that confused? Apparently so. Let me spell it out for you:

First of all, I know he didn't start the thread. But he is the one who put it in large 72 pt headline for sensationalism.

Did he do that during the church shootings last year? Why not? Aren't little girls who are innocently slaughtered worthy of the same headlines? Nope. You have to hate gays and liberals to get that attention from rcade.

But if you think I'm wrong in believing that other church shootings are just as tragic and deserve the same headlines, ignore this post.

Sorry GM, but you are just bitching. Bitching to bitch.

Sorry, manypaths - you are letting your biases show. conservatives and straight people getting slaughtered at church desevere the same attention as gays and liberals.

somehow this has to be the fault of george bush.

Was the reason political that those girls were killed GM?

This site pits Conservatives vs. Liberals on a daily basis.

THIS story is about a Conservative taking his hatred for Liberals to the point that he walks into a church and kills people because of their liberal views.

And you are having trouble understanding why this would garner a Banner Headline over Amish girls getting killed. Is this a fucking Amish Discussion Site?

Really GM, rare to see your grasp so hard in order to bitch about something just to hear yourself bitch.

The 2 stories are vastly different and you should know better.

My response was obviously too indirect for you, Goatman. In simple terms I connect this guy to Limbaugh and Bush as follows. You can stop after 3). The rest is just my opinion based on SOTU 2004.

1) This guy hates liberals and all they stand for. He says so.

2) Limbaugh hates liberals and all they stand for. He says so. Ad nauseam.

3) Bush used his 2004 State of the Union address to push for a Constitutional Amendment to define marriage as only between a man and a woman.

This is Holy Writ to the evangelical Christian Republican base and therefore is not a liberal position. They are naive enough to believe that Bush and Cheney give a fuck. Especially Cheney -- gay daughter, remember.

The SOTU text: "Activist judges, however, have begun redefining marriage by court order, without regard for the will of the people and their elected representatives. On an issue of such great consequence, the people's voice must be heard. If judges insist on forcing their arbitrary will upon the people, the only alternative left to the people would be the constitutional process." He knows that there is zero chance of getting a Constitutional Amendment but suggests one anyway dragging out all the tired old right-wing rhetoric to do so. I call that demagoguery.

IIRC, the Amish shooting did get the BIG headline.

BET- If he were Muslim, what would YOU think, at first blush?

Posted by OohRah at 2008-07-28 05:08 PM

Honestly? I'd be surprised that he struck a Unitarian Church. I'd bet on one of the Christian Mega-Churches of the South or Southwest. Additionally, were it a Muslim, I'd expect him to blow himself up in a supreme act of martyrdom while trying to bring "Allah's vengeance to the Infidels".

Seriously, if terrorists are lurking around every corner and under everyone's bed...I'm surprised that this hasn't happened yet.

"conservatives and straight people getting slaughtered at church desevere the same attention as gays and liberals."

But only when said murderers have notes at home claiming it was due to the victims' conservatism. That's not the case in the other instances, but it is in this one. Therein lies the difference.

You are too biased to have a mind open enough to understand, manypaths. I'll leave you to your prejudices.

This site pits Conservatives vs. Liberals on a daily basis.

Exactly. That is what I am saying. Church shootings are not political -- they are a tragedy. As Live or Die so elegantly and succinctly posted upthread:

It takes a special kind of stupid to think these kinds of stories are about whatever political leanings the shooter had

Congratulations on having that 'special kind of stupid', manypaths

IIRC, the Amish shooting did get the BIG headline.

Posted by Jay

Thanks Jay. After looking for what GM was bitching about, I thought I remembered a big headline for it, but could not prove that.

Anyway, GM is just bitching to bitch.

1) This guy hates liberals and all they stand for. He says so.

2) Limbaugh hates liberals and all they stand for. He says so. Ad nauseam.

3) Bush used his 2004 State of the Union address to push for a Constitutional Amendment to define marriage as only between a man and a woman.

Yea, yea, yea. You're right, BiBL. It is Limbaugh's fault. Whatever. At least that's a change from your trite and overworn "Bush's fault". You get points for that

Back to the flock. It's time for your koolaid.

Aren't little girls who are innocently slaughtered worthy of the same headlines? Nope. You have to hate gays and liberals to get that attention from rcade.

little girls are not the target of the Conservative Rights Hate Agenda and therefore NOT discriminated and hated by direction of the rich and powerful of the Republican Reich. The headline would be a bit different.

So, you see there is a BIG difference Goat.

It is like a white man railing against blacks while shooting up a Baptist Church... that would be a HATE crime. Hate crimes are not caused by drug over doses (sorry Oorah nice try) but by overdoses of Religious intolerance. That intolerance comes from somewhere.

You reap what you sow RUSH LIMBAUGH and James C. Dobson, Ph.D.

get it yet?

probably not

Church shootings are not political -- they are a tragedy.

Except when they are political, like this one you stupid fuck.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that?

These people were killed for their political views, NOT their religious views.

Did someone steal your loggin GM? You are more dense today then normal.

But only when said murderers have notes at home claiming it was due to the victims' conservatism.

BUt, but, but ... this church shooting is different! There was a note!

Danforth and the liberals.

Enjoy your pity party and look out for those nasty awful Rush listeners, BiBL. There's probably one lurking in your bushes.

I'm outta this one.

These people were killed for their political views, NOT their religious views.

Oh.

Well, then.

LOL.

What a fucking twat.

At least that's a change from your trite and overworn "Bush's fault". You get points for that...

take away some points for me please...

Bush as our leader has good deal of responsibility here too!

FACT IS..we all do for allowing this type of intolerance to fester and grow in America. But, Bush being leader of the free world, certainly has more responsibility than most.

Oh, 'well then' my ass.

Unlike last year's Amish shootings by a lunatic, this guy killed them because he 'hated libs' and was a lunatic.

You're proof everyday of how hateful Rushbots are.

" but ... this church shooting is different! There was a note!"

Yes, and the note alluded to the murderer's political motives for the killings. That's why, on a political blog, it merits more attention.

This guy was a "lunatic", too, dipshit.

The circumstances just made it into an all-too-perfect Left-wing Macbeth.

You're proof everyday of how hateful Rushbots are.

And you're proof eveyday of how atrociously ignorant and hypocritical the "left-wing" blogosphere is.

Gee, I wonder where he learned to 'hate liberals'.

Couldn't have been listening to the daily rantins of right wing lunatics could it?

You're a hateful little SOB who doesn't read much from credible sources it would seem

CC

The right wing started all this hate in 1988 with George HW Bush's "The 'L' Word" as a plot to take over the government.

When they did they fucked it up beyond anyone's wildest dreams.

I'm outta this one.

Posted by goatman

First thing you got right in the entire thread!

Gee, I wonder where he learned to 'hate liberals'.

Pretty much anybody with a cursory understanding of civics, history, culture and economics has pretty good grounds to hate "liberals".

Couldn't have been listening to the daily rantins of right wing lunatics could it?

I also hate fascists.

Those can come in the form of people who blame "talk-radio" for atrocities committed by lunatics.

Left wing ideas are shit, and they don't work. They are inherently un-American.

Having a talk radio program that points that out is a good thing.

DON-
Here's my quote: "This shooter has some serious mental/psychological issues which might have been heightened by drug abuse or other factors."

You said, "Hate crimes are not caused by drug over doses (sorry Oorah nice try) but by overdoses of Religious intolerance. That intolerance comes from somewhere."

All I'm suggesting is that whenever anyone walks into a building and randomly starts shooting... that the guy is messed up mentally. Something caused him to cross the line between the vitriol tossed around here and actually acting out with intent to kill.

Not unlike when someone commits suicide. They may have harbored thoughts, but something (maybe drugs) helps send them over the edge. In any event they weren't thinking clearly, which is what I'm saying.

(Quenching my thirst with some Koolaid.)

Limbaugh spews his hate against liberals three hours a day, five days a week. He's been doing it for twenty years or so. There are ten imitators or so out there doing the same thing. This guy didn't come up with a point of view mirroring theirs in a vacuum. Now, he might have got it from anywhere, his pastor or his girlfriend for instance, but isn't it more likely that he got it from them?

It's also much more likely that people who agree with such positions will vote Republican and not Democrat.

(Washing away the nasty taste in my mouth from talking about Limbaugh with some more Koolaid.)

Left wing ideas are shit, and they don't work. They are inherently un-American.

You mean like Civil rights?

It must really pain you to have your kids go to school with black kids huh?

It's far too easy to make this tragedy a political discussion when we can all still acknowledge the fact that the killer was batshit-crazy. If he had cited space aliens and the Easter bunny as the objects of his ire while still stepping into a UU church and murdering a couple of parishioners, everyone would have said,"Wow! This fellow was a loon." And then moved on; merely because he chose to focus on a Unitarian Church and it's liberal, pro-gay and women's rights members does nothing to change that he is mental and probably would have found some excuse to exercise his rage.

Seems like the Right is MOPPING UP the floor with the lefties today (AGAIN)

FACT!!!

Left wing ideas are shit, and they don't work. They are inherently un-American.

Having a talk radio program that points that out is a good thing.

Posted by Pinche_Mao

BRAINWASHED FOOL ALERT!!!!!!!!!!

You know, I was only kidding before but you really are a Tard aren't you?

BLUE, AU, et al...
Hate is an awfully strong word. I trust you're confident you're correct when you assign such things to Rush or others.

This "hate" issue also comes up whenever gay marriage is discussed. As though all conservative Christians must hate all gays. It's simply not true... and for those who, while taking Christ's name, go out and kill gays... they are practicing some perverted form of their own Christianity.

"Left wing ideas are shit, and they don't work. They are inherently un-American."

Says a guy who probably gets paid vacations and guaranteed access to health care through his job.

PINCHE

You're an idiot savant (retard) who's genius talent is being able to type the most ludicrous idiotic statements an idiot can make.

OOHRAH

The things some 'Christians' do and have done in God's name are detestable for sure. Anyone who can justify killing someone in God's name is just out of their minds with dogma.

On your other point, I'm sick to death of the right wing hate spewed 24/7. They've succeeded in dividing our country and propagating hate against fellow Americans.

Just read the crap the right wingers like PINCHE type here every day. Takes a real moron to fall for it, and a hateful heart to follow the Rush doctrine of hate for 'liberals'. They don't realize most Democrats are not liberals but moderates.

I've voted Republican before, but I just can't support any of them these days until the GOP is once again run by sane people instead of rabid ideologues who are hell bent on ripping this country in two.

It's far too easy to make this tragedy a political discussion when we can all still acknowledge the fact that the killer was batshit-crazy. If he had cited space aliens and the Easter bunny as the objects of his ire while still stepping into a UU church and murdering a couple of parishioners, everyone would have said,"Wow! This fellow was a loon." And then moved on; merely because he chose to focus on a Unitarian Church and it's liberal, pro-gay and women's rights members does nothing to change that he is mental and probably would have found some excuse to exercise his rage.

Posted by Sarcasmo at 2008-07-28 06:04 PM

Hmmm let's see he was together enough to gather his guns and ammo load up his weapons and get his ass to the church on time and even write a parting message to the world... he carefully chose his target to match his message of hate... oh yeah... a totally looney retard that guys was.

Problem is I can say that about a lot of Right Wing Conservatives.... they just kill in a different and more "compassionate" way.

But, they still have no qualms about killing that is for sure!

hmm lets see if I can name one..

Dick Cheney

Yes, with all the bitching going on and one thing is perfectly clear.................we see another loser neocon rightie go off the deep end and his supporters on high are tryin to distance themselves from worship of the same ideals.

AU-
Believe it or not I share some of your sentiments.

First and foremost, I agree the battle for the Republican party will have casualties (you, for instance). As for PINCHE and a few others on the right, my optimistic guess is that they'd be much more civil face to face. The same for a number of lefty posters. Anonimous blogging lends itself to extremes for effect.

I think you have to acknowledge there is a sizeable block of folk who aren't happy with the culture's direction, the governments leadership, etc... and are looking for candidates who'll be more in tune with their own. This goes for both sides of the aisle.

As for talk radio dividing the country there are varying ways to look at it. I agree it's emboldened some on the right who maybe couldn't necessarily articulate their feelings as succinctly... but say, "hell yeah" when Rush says it.

But we part ways if you want me to accept as fact that these people are blank slates, simply waiting to be filled in by El Rushbo.

This nation has ALWAYS been divided politically. The advent of the "new" media has brought forth a voice previously only seen in WF Buckley's works and a few others. Do you really think the conservative movement (both fiscal and faith) hasn't always been around?

And what about the voices on the left? The nightly talk from Keith O, Mathews, and various others does what? Divide? Simply inform? Should all talk and opinion be stifled?

I agree with Rush that conservativism wins in the marketplace of ideas. People are brighter than I think you're giving them credit for. Provide both sides (as we've seen since the "new" media) and let people coalesce behind what they wish.

Donner,

The S. Korean lad who went on a rampage at Virginia Tech also left a note, recorded videos, and published some of said videos on his blog...
The lunatics who decide to show up to work at the post office or climb a bell/water tower to go on their shooting sprees often leave notes and still have the presence of mind to bring along their weapons and ammo.You're attempting to make a political issue out of the actions of someone clearly unbalanced.

If a loon flipping out and going on a shooting spree is your biggest issue, spend more effort on restricting gun ownership to people who are sane rather than crucifying a demagogue like Rush Limbaugh.

This is not God's will Member--but since you know so much you can retort yourself.

Posted by MURPHY

Now how would know if it's not God's will, Murph?

If it's good, it's God's will. If it's bad, it's not God's will. Is that how it works?

Posted by Ray

hey guys.. its a Unitarian church. I use to attend a Unitarian church due to my humanist leanings and have to admit they are very accepting of all. Their motto is "deeds not creeds". Its not a bunch of god talk crap but more what you can do FOR the community.

I am sure the 2 dead guys were happy to be used as tools to make other people more religous.

Posted by truthhurts

no shit..the stuff "good christians" spout out of their diarrhea hole never amazes me

OOHRAH

Ronald Reagan played cards with Tip O'Neill once a week. They were friends. Republican presidents throughout our history all the way back worked with Democrats to move our national agenda forward, and compromised in a bipartisan manner to achieve results. There was always a level of respect for whomever the 'loyal opposition' was. Their patriotism wasn't questioned, they weren't denigrated as 'traitors', Presidential cronies didn't use the Justice Dept. in an attempt to throw elections, engage in witch hunts seeking to overturn the election of a Democrat as they did with Clinton, times were far more civil.

It can be directly traced to 20 years ago with the rise of NeoCon ideologues and right wing hate radio that fills the air 14 hours a day on practically every 100,000 watt AM station in the country.

We were all good Americans until the hate mongers came along. Pity is, once they got power they left us in a hell of a mess.

Low-opportunity targets, as they're first and fastest to run and scatter.

Posted by cookfish

don't hold your breath motherfucker.

Every man has his breaking point.

When and if it's ever reached, some are able to deal with it better than others.

But it doesn't really become a "really sad sign of the times that a church is targeted for its views" until a bunch of hippies get it in their "church".

Posted by Pinche_Mao

Hippies? You mean like John Adams and Thomas Jefferson? Like Clara Barton and Albert Schweitzer?
Like Ralph Waldo Emerson and Alexander Graham Bell?
Like Lewis Latimer and Charles Darwin? Like Samuel Morse and Isaac Newton and Linus Pauling and Florence Nightingale and Benjamin Rush and Abigail Adams and Benjamin Franklin and Paul Revere and Daniel Webster and Charles Dickens and Ray Bradbury and too many more to name..

what a fucking tool..

God did...God didn't. God will...God won't...God can...God won't.

Man, you religious nuts got an excuse for everything. No wonder some of you go nuts and kill innocent people. You suffer from Deific schizophrenia!

Drop the damn bible and step away from the religion!

AU-
You may be correct regarding the timing, etc. If memory serves, the left despised Reagan while he was in office. Reagan had the communication ability to go around Congress and talk with the citizens, which really frustrated Congress.

I may be wrong, but for me, the turning point as far as "nastiness" came when Robert Bork was rejected for the SCOTUS. Some of the vile, hateful words from the likes of Kennedy and the gang set a tone which Reps didn't/wouldn't/couldn't let go.

Our 1994 take over of Congress (seen by some as a repudiation of Clinton's policies) further stirred the waters.

See, for decades the Dems ran Congress. Reps were content for a spot at the table but weren't really fighters. People like Minority Leader Bob Michael (R-IL) went along to get along.

Gingrich helped change that mindset. It's also not as though Dems have been blameless for any perceived heightening of a rift.

If a loon flipping out and going on a shooting spree is your biggest issue, spend more effort on restricting gun ownership to people who are sane rather than crucifying a demagogue like Rush Limbaugh.

Posted by Sarcasmo at 2008-07-28 06:41 PM

you almost make a good point if this "loon" had developed in a vacuum.

It is obvious he did not.

Everything is political friend. And these days everything appears to be "religious" too.

That is the sadness of it.

I may be wrong, but for me, the turning point as far as "nastiness" came when Robert Bork was rejected for the SCOTUS. Some of the vile, hateful words from the likes of Kennedy and the gang set a tone which Reps didn't/wouldn't/couldn't let go.

I doubt you even know the history of Bork. Why not just put Stalin himself on the USSC. What a fucking monster you support. We'd be goosestepping in the streets in 20 years with him on the court.

Here is an example of Bork supporting Nixon over the Constitution. Guess what he would do if actually asked to support the Constitution he dismisses so easily.

Bork also played a dark role in President Richard Nixon's Watergate scandal. After presidental assistant Alexander Butterfield revealed Nixon's office taping system, special prosecutor Archibald Cox demanded that Nixon turn over the tapes. Nixon refused to turn over the tapes, and in retaliation ordered his attorney general, Elliot Richardson, to fire Cox. Richardson resigned instead, as did the next in line, Williams Ruckleshaus. Bork, next in line, had no problem, and promptly fired Cox. Public reaction to this chain of events came to be known as the "Saturday Night Massacre," and eventually forced the appointment of another special prosector (Leon Jaworski), and the eventual release of the Nixon tapes.

OOHRAH

Reagan was a friendly adversary to Democrats. The public did not vote for legislation and did not turn out Democrats. In fact, the term 'Reagan Democrats' implies Democrats were not hateful of Reagan.

You and I are a good example of how people with differing political opinions can be civil to each other. I respect your right to your opinions as you do mine, and from reading your posts I think we'd get along great. In the past people could disagree without being disagreeable. I pin it all on the advent of right wing hate radio - the first time you had hate for the opposition blanketing America 14 hours a day.

"Moral issues' are the responsibility of parents. With all the emphasis over issues the government should not and cannot achieve our needed focus on national issues like the economy, foreign policy, crumbling infrastructure, historically high dropout rates, falling wages, and the plethora of other ignored issues have been the result.

The best thing all of we as Americans could do is restore a sense of dignity to our political conversations in this country. Unless we do, we'll continue fighting over narrow wedge issues. America will continue to slowly diminish while we do.

America will continue to slowly diminish while we do.

Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2008-07-28 07:23 PM

Too late. This is two countries now. There is no middle ground--there is no compromising. None.

OOHRAH

One more thought on Bork:

He was the first in a long line of SCOTUS candidates vetted for his views on one topic: Abortion

That's what I'm talking about. When people vote for a Presidential candidate based on that issue for example, they ignore all other issues that face the SC.

Today, the rep for the credit reporting agency my wife uses in her business proudly showed off the pictures of her newly adopted son - from Russia. I asked he if was too tough to adopt (any of the millions) of American kids in foster care. She replied, "No, several others from my church adopted from China and Russia".

On that issue my question is this: Why do 'Christians' who oppose abortion so vehemently in churches across the county go thousands of miles to adopt when there are millions of kids right HERE that need a home? To me, that makes abortion a necessary option for women who would question terminating their parental rights if they cannot be reassured their children will be adopted into loving homes.

Those 'feel good' adoptions of babies from China and other foreign countries are a clear rejection of the mantra the 'prolife' side and their 'sanctity of life' claims profess to hold for kids right here in the good old U.S.A. Additionally, the right has done everything it can to undermine safety nets for mothers who bear children under circumstances that make it tough to provide essentials let alone give them a decent shot at life. Meanwhile thousands of churches across America that preach a 'prolife' position lay dark 6 days a week providing no mentoring or helpful resources like free day care, vocational training, food, or anything else to mothers who did not choose the path of terminating their pregnancies. And the right wonders why women choose abortion. It's not their first thought but a sad and necessary choice in too many cases. Think about it.

That's why abortion is such a moot issue when compared to all the incredibly pressing issues a nation faces.

AU-
I agree with you that people like you and I can firmly disagree without the vitriol we so often witness on the DR and in our media today. We have perhaps different goals and ways of reaching those goals.

On the abortion issue and your take on the dearth of pro-lifers stepping forward to adopt. I don't dispute that there are many, many kids thrown into the "system" for a variety of reasons.

Still, whether one adopts a kid from China, Russia or Iowa... that's one fewer young kid entering a nation's system.

Further, I don't think one necessarily has to adopt a kid to have a valued opinion on abortion. Same thing for the Iraq War/Cindy Sheehan controversy. Does the death of her son make her views on the war any more valid than mine or yours? I have a kid who's been there and who's volunteered to go back - does that necessarily buy me any street cred in terms of my war view?

It may provide me with a unique perspective, but does that give my opinion more weight/validity than yours? It shouldn't.

When Christians talk of spreading the Gospel to all the nations of the world, it's not that I'm a hypocrite if I don't physically go myself. I can financially (and via prayer) help support those who've chosen that path.

I think it's the same with adoption. One doesn't have to adopt a kid to be opposed to murdering babies - and that's how pro-lifers see it - murdering innocent babies.

So then a question for my side becomes whether we, as a society, are willing to demean human life to such a degree. The SCOTUS has stripped us of the ability to decide this issue, so it's important for those who see a gradual slide of morality to have representatives who'll stand up to those who'd want to further erode our moral culture. Yes, parents have very, VERY much to do with how a kid turns out... but also our laws tell many of us what is right and wrong. And it seems, increasingly, that our laws favor "anything goes." Just my two (or three, since the post is so long) cents.

Nope. You have to hate gays and liberals to get that attention from rcade.

Over the years I've floated the banner on all kinds of stories. This one got that treatment because the gunman singled out a church with the expressed intent of killing liberals.

Oohrah

I guess the concept of mind your own fucking business has no meaning for you. You obviously feel you know how other people should live their lives and see no problem with forcing your views on others, Let me be first in line to tell you to go fuck yourself.

America is about FREEDOM.

Dumbass.

"America is about FREEDOM."-- BUFF

That's why abortion is such a moot issue when compared to all the incredibly pressing issues a nation faces.

Maybe to someone with the morality of a grapefruit.

For the rest of us, the state-sanctioned slaughter of the most innocent and helpless class of citizen we have is a pretty pressing issue.

If you partake in ABORTION out of a lazy desire to not take RESPONSIBILITY for your actions you are going to HELL!!!

FACT!

Left wing ideas are shit, and they don't work. They are inherently un-American.

~Pinky Moocow

O rly?

Their shit and they don't work?

Sure you don't mean good ole fashioned Right wing "ideas"?

Like giving tax cuts to the richest in time of war?
Wiretapping the citizenry at will?
Suspension of Habeus Corpus?
Decreased privacy fer the citizenry?
Increased secrecy fer the government?
Outing NOC agents?
Politicising the DoJ?
Peopling it with zealots?
Mercenary Armies?
War Profiteering?
Pre-emptive wars?
Kidnapping?
Torture?

Them idears are about as effective as they are American.

Which is to say... not so much.

Yer such a tard, Mao.

Grab a clue.

Try and collect the whole set.

Be Well.

What if the shooter had been a Muslim? Whoud this have been considered and act of terrorism and would he have been shipped to Gtmo?

Posted by member2586 at 2008-07-27 11:40 PM

Member--it happened to the Jewish synogogue by a muslim and he killed 4-5 women (?) and wounded 3 others and the MSM shut this story out--except if you lived in Seattle.

What is crazy is this thread with the posts blaming Bush, Rush, Hannity, God!

Call me crazy--but shouldn't the blame go to the idiot who can't keep his crackers on the table--can't keep a clear thought in his deranged little pea brain, thinks he is going to affect the world by killing church people for perceived teachings--he doesn't agree with??

The shooter is the one to blame--he gets mad at his neighbor because she is a Christian! The guy doesn't know what he is--He hates Christians, he hates Christians who accept liberal views and gays??

And since insanity is a legal term--it is not a psychiatric term--he didn't have the huevos to kill himself?!!

This guy wanted his 15 minutes of fame. And all intentional murders are "hate crimes". There should not be any "special group" classifications for folks who are murdered. It is all hate and equally so to each murdered person.

"Their shit" = "They're"

There.

Fixed That Fer Me!

Be Well.

/On Topic?

//There's no hate like rethug hate.

It seems I got into some trouble for stating it is the religous that ask why things happen they way they do in life.

I don't know what to tell you. If you think this is a deterministic universe then everything has as much meaning as a billiard game.

That is, billiards without the motivation between players. In a godless universe, the distinction between billiard balls and those holding the cues is not only hard to define, but useless to define.

"I dont ever want to hear the LIE about liberal media bias again"
==============================
==

I am watching Ohlberman right now.

He is sucking on Husseins sac as we speak.

FACT!

The SCOTUS has stripped us of the ability to decide this issue

OOHRAH

On the contrary. Roe vs Wade GAVE women the right to decide - a right the right wants to strip that right from women.

To your point about international adoptions, America is the one country that has abortion as such divisive point.

It's highly hypocritical of Christian Americans to go overseas when there are millions of kids right here who need a good home, proving that their opposition to abortion is as hollow as a tree trunk where the rubber meets the road.

Can't be bringing a black baby to church now can we? People would talk!!

a right the right wants to strip that from women.

Anytime religous people of any sort are killed or are doing some killing it puts a smile on my face. 2 are dead, one is on the way to live in a cage, not a bad deal at all. . .

Let me guess, this ass is voting for McCain too, listens to Limbaugh and Hannity and thinks Ann Coulter is really a female and the moon landing was faked.

"Not a bad deal at all...."

So, we're recommended to your philosophical convictions in exactly what way, exactly?

Not to mention the fact that 5 gay jews run the world from a luxury cave on Barbados.

Exactly x2---Just encouraging precision.

I listen to Rush. He is correct and RIGHT!

FACT you DUMMY!

Oh, I get it---You're a troll.

am watching Ohlberman right now.

He is sucking on Husseins sac as we speak.

FACT!

Posted by James_Dean
Moron, reconcile for me the George Mason Univiersity study?????

"reconcile for me the George Mason Univiersity study?????

Posted by AngelofTRUTH
============================

Sorry, BARRY is a SOCIALIST!!!!!

FACTAPALOOZA!

AU--shouldn't someone speak for the Posterity who cannot speak for themselves and over 1 million are killed every year in this country?

It's a States' Rights issue and the SCOTUS took that away from the States and made this the law of the entire country.

Aren't little girls who are innocently slaughtered worthy of the same headlines? -- Goat

In the widespread coverage that followed these crimes, very little was made of the fact that only girls were targeted. Imagine if a gunman had gone into a school, separated the kids up on the basis of race or religion, and then shot only the black kids. Or only the white kids. Or only the Jews.

There would have been thunderous outrage. The country would have first recoiled in horror, and then mobilized in an effort to eradicate that kind of murderous bigotry. There would have been calls for action and reflection. And the attack would have been seen for what it really was: a hate crime.

None of that occurred because these were just girls, and we have become so accustomed to living in a society saturated with misogyny that violence against females is more or less to be expected.

"So, we're recommended to your philosophical convictions in exactly what way, exactly?"

Christian supremacists killing each other makes me a happy guy. Don't like it? Well there's really fuck all you or anyone else can do about it. It's funny. It could only be better if he had shot more than just two, then put the barrel in his mouth and got the fucking lead out.

Hey, heres a hypothetical for you retards to argue over. Do you think if he had asked for forgiveness right before he ate a bullet that the old man with a beard who's keeping track of all of the bad things everyone everywhere does would have invited him to live with him forever in the cloud city?

I haven't drank in about 6 years, this and the thread on the back page make me want to knock more than a few back to celebrate. I think I'll just go spend some quality time with my family instead though. w00t!

Lotta people on this thread tossing around labels they don't understand, the FACT stupidissimo only the last. They don't know communist from socialist, radical from liberal, agnostic from atheist, but use the words interchangeably, as their moods dictate.

Communists, socialists, radicals and liberals share a basic orientation, I suspect, of thinking about others first. Their testosteronish counterparts essentially think about their own rights first and screw the neighbors. Any dissenter is a stoopid commie faggot pink marxist pussy whimp.

I need to point out that we trace Unitarianism to the pharaoh Akhnaton, who had notions of ethical monotheism centuries before Jesus. It developed under that name as an antidote to trinitarianism - "one god, not three." Today it's "one god - at most." herm

Oh, I get it---You're a troll.

geez - why all the hubbub - this guy could've been a muzlim! they hate liberals and gays also and don't hesitate to execute them in the public square in their own countries. no big deal.

resume party.

The shooter is the one to blame--he gets mad at his neighbor because she is a Christian! The guy doesn't know what he is--He hates Christians, he hates Christians who accept liberal views and gays

I am sure the headline will be changed any moment to say:

Church Killer Hated Liberals, Gays and Christians

In all honesty, I don't think the core of this political or even religious issues of tolerance or intolerance--which are, of course, very real concerns.

Incidents like this are really about mental health issues. Paranoia, truly irrational minds and uncontrollable violent urges create an intolerance that is beyond ideological positioning. His silicon chip got switched to overload beyond his ability to control it.

Incidents like these have, indeed, become a reoccurring test for religious and non religious alike. Can you condemn the horror of what he has done while at the same time summon even the smallest amount of compassion for a man who suffers from an obvious severe mental illness?

Every time I read about someone doing this, I keep thinking that a yearly mental health checkup/screening should be as common as the physical.

Peace

I need to point out that we trace Unitarianism to the pharaoh Akhnaton

If you mean the concept not the actual religion..
the first real unitarian disagreement was in roman times..

Modern Unitarianism is from Transylvania and was a by product of the protestant reforms and a split from the precept of a trinity versus one god doctrine.

Every time I read about someone doing this, I keep thinking that a yearly mental health checkup/screening should be as common as the physical.

Peace

Posted by Grendel

ditto

Oh, I get it---You're a troll.
Posted by Zed

No, not so much, it just makes me happy when idiots die and kill each other. Why is that so hard to understand?

Did he hear of the Christian-hating ACLU trying to remove the pledge from Florida schools?

"If you partake in ABORTION out of a lazy desire to not take RESPONSIBILITY for your actions you are going to HELL!!! FACT!"

Now someone tell me this isn't clever satire, a send-up of the composite rightie. Sort of like that New Yorker cover which the Jimmy Deans of the world's trailer park failed to comprehend. herm

"Sort of like that New Yorker cover which the Jimmy Deans of the world's trailer park failed to comprehend. herm

Posted by herm "

Herm is a despotic decompsing vestige of the dead effete left.

Sorry but you suck Herm.

FACT~!

And finally to bolster those who somehow link UUs and reproductive rights:

The Unitarian-Universalist denomination-wide general assembly adopted its FIRST pro-choice resolution just ten years before Roe v Wade. Understanding, of course, that NO one is killed. herm

Yeah--Herm --back then they would tell women that there was no baby--only a lump of tissue.

Babies are born at 29 weeks and live. I don't know what the earliest baby born is--

Abortions are a matter of convenience for many up to 24 weeks.

That is a person that is being killed.

And this guy is a murderer and needs to get his justice.

Murphy and Nancy can bandy about suggestions that terminating a pregnancy is murder all they like, but it's not, and nothing they can say can make it so.

As for the church shooter-upper deserving justice, I'll concur. As soon as Ol' Surfin' Murph tells me what that justice is. Shooting HIM?herm

Perfect candidate for the Athiest, Anti Christian left and aclu to demonize all white males. Hate Crime,Bullshit.If this guy was a gay child rapist and murder the aclu would beating down the door to defend him.

Remember that Muslim who rented a minivan or suv, because it was bigger so he could run over and kill more unbelievers. Was that at Duke University? Killed 5 or 6 people I think.Tht was a hate crime.

Couldnt find it on my computer.

Hate crime my ass. The guy snapped. Show me where its against the LAW to hate anyway.

If you partake in ABORTION out of a lazy desire to not take RESPONSIBILITY for your actions you are going to HELL!!!

FACT!

Posted by James_Dean at 2008-07-28 08:24 PM | Reply

So says the guy who makes those decisions. Actually anyone who believes in talking snakes and 900 year old people shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Facts are---Abortion IS taking responsibility for a persons actions. Neither of the choices is without consequences. The person best to make that decision is the woman--not the courts--not the government--not the state--and not you.

Has one of them there talking snakes ever talked to you? Fact?

;-)

Abortions are a matter of convenience for many up to 24 weeks.

That is a person that is being killed.

I can't count the number of times I've heard someone in a store, upon seeing a woman with 6 kids in tow, make a snide remark about how she "doesn't know when to quit". Probably one of the prolife folks no doubt looking down on someone who didn't have an abortion but had a kid they couldn't afford to give a good life.

Then there's the Catholic Church which is against abortion rights - but also against birth control.

Make up your mind.

You want unwanted kids who grow up in poverty? Fine. Pay for their educations, food, and clothing or shut up.

Did he hear of the Christian-hating ACLU trying to remove the pledge from Florida schools?

Posted by takitez at 2008-07-28 09:39 PM | Reply

Yes, a little brainwashing first thing in the morning never hurt anyone. I hear the commies are big on such things too. Well, fight fire with fire right?

Murphy and Nancy can bandy about suggestions that terminating a pregnancy is murder all they like, but it's not, and nothing they can say can make it so.

Science says you are wrong Herm

As for the church shooter-upper deserving justice, I'll concur. As soon as Ol' Surfin' Murph tells me what that justice is. Shooting HIM?herm

Posted by herm at 2008-07-28 10:14 PM

Too soon to tell Herm--certainly life in prison forever.

OH THOSE LIBERALS, THEY'RE EVIL KILLERS...

oh, wait...

There's also the 'save the babies' crowd in the GOP who want to undo every safety net for struggling women and children.

Remember 'prolife' Bush's veto of SCHIPS? Funded entirely through a raise in tobacco taxes, he still vetoed it.

Take away a woman's right to choose, but offer her and her kid no help at all once they're born.

I'm not on one side or the other of this as I'm not a woman. But, as Barry Goldwater said, "It's none of my business what a woman does with her reproductive rights"

darn italics--

AU--I am all for birth control pills, other contraceptives--yes--they are needed.

Actually for rape, incest victims--if they want--should have that RD40 drug (?).

All this makes me pro-choice BTW.

I find it BS by the womens movement that they cry out for women Not to be responsible for their actions--don't worry about--go have an abortion.

One million babies a year in this country is infantcide.

Posterity is in our Constitution--that is our future generations mentioned specifically in the Constitution that have protection--not the right of a woman to kill her baby.

The baby needs a voice--they don't get due process. We could do a lot better if Adoption was the norm. But that is not offered at the Planned Parenthood--they only give Birth Control, tubal ligations and abortions.

"Science says you are wrong Herm."

Murphy's reply about terminating a pregnancy not taking a life. I'd settle for a sound bite of Science saying so, Murph, but to paraphrase Dickens, "if Science says that then Science is an ass." herm

Then there's the Catholic Church which is against abortion rights - but also against birth control.

Make up your mind.

the Church isn't keeping anyone from doing either. If you don't like it then do whatever.

the church is against sex outside of marriage which is what creates the horror of abortion.

Are you suggesting birth control is a solution?

Take away a woman's right to choose, but offer her and her kid no help at all once they're born.

I'll agree that is inconsistent. Pro-life is pro-life.

Are you suggesting birth control is a solution?

Duh. Women TAKE birth control to do what? Prevent unwanted pregnancies. What are abortions? Unwanted pregnancies.

Jeebus H!

"Are you suggesting birth control is a solution?"

Are you suggesting that it's NOT, Eb? herm

Duh. Women TAKE birth control to do what? Prevent unwanted pregnancies.

and yet somehow we have more unwanted pregnancies and abortions SINCE we have introduced and implemented the widespread use of birth control.

but go ahead and continue to argue that birth control has helped. maybe it has helped you but you can't argue that since the 60's (when we introduced the pill) we have a exponential explosion of abortion, unwed mothers, teenage pregnancy, poverty etc......

Are you suggesting that it's NOT, Eb? herm

Posted by herm

see above post herm.

And yet the Catholic Church still bans birth control

You make no sense whatsoever.

You also make claims with no proof such as more abortions, they're all single women having intercourse and getting pregnant, blah blah blah

Sorry, I just don't buy any of the talking points on this. If you don't want an abortion DON"T GET ONE!

If you want everyone else to have unwanted kids then pay for them. The prolife GOP has done everything it can to eliminate safety nets for women and children.

We call them "hypocrites" in the real world.

Why don't the headlines state the obvious? Christian terrorist wreaking sectarian violence.

Ha ha, herm.

Another thread "harangued" by those @#$%ing pro-lifers.

Three Christian terrorist attacks just this week!

EBERLY

Read my comments about foreign adoptions.

The religious right doesn't practice what they preach.

I can't even count the number of Chinese and Russian babies I'm aware of in the church community here where I live. Meanwhile, there are about 30,000 unwanted kids in foster homes here because they're black, 5, or whatever.

So much for the "let women put unwanted kids up for adoption". Fine when they're a day old, but no no no, we can't take them if they're 1 or the wrong skin color. We have to look 'compassionate' by adopting a baby from China.

Oh, the irony.

And yet the Catholic Church still bans birth control

they aren't "banning" anything. they are against it and yet probably 2/3 of adult catholics are using artificial birth control.

some "ban".

You make no sense whatsoever.

self retorting retort.

Sorry, I just don't buy any of the talking points on this.

that is because you have a closed mind.

You also make claims with no proof such as more abortions, they're all single women having intercourse and getting pregnant, blah blah blah

sorry, my bad. they were buying produce at the store when they got pregnant.

If you don't want an abortion DON"T GET ONE!

thanks for pointing out my freedoms but I already understand them.

We call them "hypocrites" in the real world.

you talking to me?

You want to end abortion? Then the GOP needs to get off it's constant course to eliminate help for those that choose to have their kids.

Sorry if I got snarky with you. I just don't get the hypocrisies of the right when it comes to abortion and unwanted children once they're born.

Take Bush' veto of SCHIPS, for example. Fully funded by a tax on cigarettes, yet a veto. So much for 'prolife' when it comes to kids who have already been born.

incredible ignorance of the topic

Posted by vernon at 2008-07-27 07:52 PM |

FinallY Vermins counseling seems to be paying off. Admitting your shortcomings is a real breakthrough Verm!

No, I wasn't talking to you specifically. Just in general to those who are 'prolife' but want to pull the rug out from under those born, or ignore them in foster homes.

EBERLY

You're part of the problem rather than the solution.

You think banning abortion is going to end them? You think there weren't hundreds of thousands a year before Roe vs Wade? Guess again.

But, there were thousands of women who bled to death.

I can't even count the number of Chinese and Russian babies I'm aware of in the church community here where I live. Meanwhile, there are about 30,000 unwanted kids in foster homes here because they're black, 5, or whatever.

I don't see your point, these homes that are taking in these foster children aren't Christians nor members of the "church community"?

amazing!!!

None of them? Can you show a link for this assertion?

..."1. Either God allowed this to happen, thus making it his will, in order to teach something to the people of the church or someone involved or someone who reads about it.

actually , since god is omniscient and omnipotent, then he knew when he created the universe that this would happen. Just like every natural and "being" created disaster that ever has or ever will happen in the entire past, present, and future of the universe.

What a fucking douchebag.

Wow, didn't realize I'd stepped into a lively debate!
Do carry on.

You think banning abortion is going to end them?

No. Are you wrongly accusing me of that position?

go figure.....a rabid lib who has to assign a position to me to make their argument.

You're part of the problem rather than the solution.

really? you say this but the starting point of our argument is for you to be 100% wrong about my position.

stop embarrasing yourself further.

"Rabid lib"

Guess again. I'm a moderate who's voted both sides of the aisle. I am completely disgusted with the self righteous GOP NeoCons who say they want one thing but do the other.

Call me all the names you want to. I could care less. I mock 'compassionate conservatives'.

The GOP has done the opposite of everything they claim to stand for. Prolife? Ya, til the baby's born. Fiscally responsible? BWWAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

stop embarrasing yourself further.

Posted by eberly at 2008-07-28 11:16 PM

this statement would seem to have time continium problems.

"But, there were thousands of women who bled to death."

No doubt, a firm believer in Nathanson's account.

Sucker...

I am completely disgusted with the self righteous GOP NeoCons who say they want one thing but do the other.

you discovered some career politicians to be hypocrites?? wow!!!

No Shit???

As part of your therapy to deal with your "disgust" continue to get everything else wrong. It appears to be working

:-(

you discovered some career politicians to be hypocrites?? wow!!!

No Shit???

No one's been bigger hypocrites than the GOP on abortion and fiscal discipline.

As part of your therapy to deal with your "disgust" continue to get everything else wrong. It appears to be working

Ya, sure. Whatever you say snarky.

This man was your typical evil rethug. case closed

This man was your typical evil rethug. case closed

Yes, he was evil. May be a republican, but we will probably never know for sure.

Your point?

republicans can't stand to see liberals enjoying life and enjoying Christian fellowship. this repub seemed to think that only conservatives should go to church.

what is so sad is that he would have been welcomed and probably changed his views on liberalism after he met a few of us. liberalism is the greatest philosophy one can ever hope to achieve.

republicans can't stand to see liberals enjoying life and enjoying Christian fellowship.

So you are one of those who paint with a very broad brush. Got it.

this repub seemed to think that only conservatives should go to church.

I was going to ask how you were able to get into his mindset and determine this, but on second thought, some questions are best left unanswered. TMI

liberalism is the greatest philosophy one can ever hope to achieve.

Nope. Moderation is the greatest philosophy one can ever hope to achieve. If our government was all liberal, it would be as fucked up as if it was all conservative.

Moderation is the key.

Here are a few more bits of information about the psycho.

Owen said Adkisson wrote that he was angered by "his lack of being able to obtain a job," a reduction in his food stamp allotment, and "the liberal movement." Owen explained the liberal movement, as defined by Adkisson, included liberal philosophies and issues pertaining to gays.
Records show Adkisson had been working on the note for about a week.
Adkisson went on a rampage at the church, Still wrote, "because of its liberal teachings and his belief that all liberals should be killed because they were ruining the country, and that he felt that the Democrats had tied his country's hands in the war on terror and they had ruined every institution in America with the aid of major media outlets."

Adkisson, who had served in the military, said "that because he could not get to the leaders of the liberal movement he would then target those that had voted them in office," the search warrant states.

Still noted Adkisson had sawed off part of the barrel on the shotgun and had left his home unlocked to provide police easier access after he was killed during the attack.

Still seized three books from Adkisson's home, including "The O'Reilly Factor," by television commentator Bill O'Reilly; "Liberalism is a Mental Disorder," by radio personality Michael Savage; and "Let Freedom Ring," by political pundit Sean Hannity.

TO think west va, tenn and kentucky are full of these individuals.

"Still seized three books from Adkisson's home, including "The O'Reilly Factor," by television commentator Bill O'Reilly; "Liberalism is a Mental Disorder," by radio personality Michael Savage; and "Let Freedom Ring," by political pundit Sean Hannity."

More proof that he didn't come to be the way he was in a vacuum. While these sleazy opportunists dominate the airwaves real and decent conservatives will always face an uphill battle to persuade the middle ground that theirs in an honorable political philosophy.

It's an unpleasant fact to face for a decent conservative but conservatism has allowed itself to be defined by such people. The GOP from Bush on down tolerates them as a useful political tool even going as far as inviting them to the White House to urge them to help at election time and feeding them propaganda directly from the West Wing.

Some conservatives have faced these facts and are much more disgusted with the White House and the GOP than those of us who are not conservative by nature. They'll make themselves heard this election cycle by voting for Bob Barr, abstaining or even voting for Obama. Others will just continue on and vote for McCain because they agree with what these ranters say or just because they've always voted that way and don't see all of this as deliberate divisiveness used as a political tool.

More proof that he didn't come to be the way he was in a vacuum.

???

Buffalo bob logic rears its ugly head. I haven't read these books, but I doubt if they have any passages about shooting up people in church.

Or do you have any evidence that other people who own these three books go around shooting up churches?

This would be funny if it wasn't such a sick assumption bibl. Are you really that filled with hatred for the right that you have to make completely irrational leaps of logic making yourself look like a fool?

Apparently so. Get over it. Life without irrational hatred is actually quite pleasant.

Still seized three books from Adkisson's home, including "The O'Reilly Factor," by television commentator Bill O'Reilly; "Liberalism is a Mental Disorder," by radio personality Michael Savage; and "Let Freedom Ring," by political pundit Sean Hannity.

New GOP motto:

"Making terrorists here and there so we can fight them everywhere."

AX, is the "you" in your last sentence referring to ZED or me? And the minority of what? Of Christians or of the entire US population?

"you" is the person I was adressing my post to. Zed.

He is a minority, as far as I can see it, if he doesn't hold the belief that God does things such as this to test or strengthen people.

"Are you really that filled with hatred for the right...posted by Goatman"

...real and decent conservatives will always face an uphill battle...

It's an unpleasant fact to face for a decent conservative....

Some conservatives have faced these facts and are much more disgusted with the White House and the GOP than those of us who are not conservative by nature.

Does this sound like I have hatred for the right? Of course it doesn't, but don't let that interfere with your state of denial that you choose to mitigate by attacking the messengers.

I agree with about 20% of what conservatives used to stand for. I disagree with about 20% of what liberals stand for. Deep down I'm a liberal because I think that all people deserve a fair shake and that, with all their faults, is basically where the Democrats stand IN MY OPINION and that, with all their virtues, is basically where conservatives don't stand, IN MY OPINION.

When you're not lashing out in a reflexive defensive crouch you strike me as someone who feels the same way but from a conservative position. A synthesis of your views and mine would make America a far better place than the opportunistic divisiveness encouraged by those authors found in this loser's duplex and tacitly approved of by the leadership of the GOP. IN MY OPINION.

I'm leaving for a few hours. Gym and morning walk etc. Hope to take this further on my return.

AU-
I wanted to pick up on the adoption issue you and I touched on yesterday. In the past I may have mentioned to you that I'm a subscriber to the National Review - hard copy magazine. Since I've felt lousy these past few days I hadn't read much of it, but last night when I woke up to take medicine (and had to eat so as not to have an empty stomach) I read the National Review at 3am.

Was this Knoxville killer a Republican? Sadly, no! He was a VICTIM of Republicans, brainwashed by corporate media to blame his plight on those most likely to defend him. In our land the guy scraping by on a low-paid shit job while battling termites and crabgrass in his own shanty learns to hate those with less, not those with more. herm

Oohrah,

I haven't read the article but wouldn't the most important factor here be Roe v Wade and the drying up of the supply of white babies while the demand remains constant? White adopters are in general looking for white children to adopt and white women who now get pregnant and don't want the child now have the option of legal abortion. I'm guessing but I think it's quite likely that before abortion was legal these white women, especially those more educated and from a higher socio-economic class, were quite likely to relinquish their child to adoption rather than keep it.

I'm guessing again but in addition to the supply problem in America it seems likely that in some foreign countries there are less legal hoops to jump through and less scrutiny of the adoptive parents. You probably need more money though, especially with the current state of the dollar, but there are still plenty of people around to whom that is no problem.

Adkisson was on Food Stamps but he hated liberals. OK,,,,,,

"In fact, the term 'Reagan Democrats' implies Democrats were not hateful of Reagan" - Americanunity

Kinda like it's obvious that Pelosi and Reid are the leaders of the 'Bush Democrats' nowadays.

"In fact, the term 'Reagan Democrats' implies Democrats were not hateful of Reagan" - Americanunity

Thanks for reminding me about that, GIMME. AU, when I said Dems couldn't stand Reagan, I was primarily talking about Dem pols... not the "Reagan Democrats" you speak of.

Going back in history a bit, they'd neutered Nixon, Ford was a lacky, had a buddy in Carter and then ran into Reagan - a "cowboy, dunce, actor, senile old geezer with his hand on the nuke button" who consistently befuddled the Dem power structure... getting legislation passed by appealing to the people - people like the Reagan Democrats you referred to, AU.

Church shootings aren't always by madmen who claim to hate liberals and gays. But if it is a madman who hates liberals and gays, we can depend on people like rcade to make an extra special deal out of and stir up hatred.

Thank you for saying in two sentences what I can't seem to say in 10 posts.

Posted by Pinche_Mao at 2008-07-28 04:32 PM |

changing your tune? figures.

why don't you identify for us poor mouth-breathers a few examples of madmen shooting up a church because of their conservative views.

fucking witless clowns.

We are seldom privy to a madman's political affiliations are we were in this tragic incident. Since political affiliations of madmen are seldom disclosed, can we assume that if it is a conservative church, the shooter was liberal? Seems fair since the general attitude here is that this guy chose a liberal church because of his conservative leanings.

If you accept that premise, I already provided some examples upthread.

"Seems fair since the general attitude here is that this guy chose a liberal church because of his conservative leanings."

He left a note, Goatman. The "general attitude here", as you describe it is because he left a note:

An out-of-work truck driver accused of opening fire at a Unitarian church, killing two people, left behind a note suggesting that he targeted the congregation out of hatred for its liberal policies, including its acceptance of gays, authorities said Monday.

A four-page letter found in Jim D. Adkisson's small SUV indicated he intentionally targeted the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church because, the police chief said, "he hated the liberal movement" and was upset with "liberals in general as well as gays."

He left a note, Goatman. The "general attitude here", as you describe it is because he left a note:

Maybe Goatman forgot. That was yesterdays news, after all.

=D

He left a note, Goatman. The "general attitude here", as you describe it is because he left a note:

Maybe Goatman forgot. That was yesterdays news, after all.

duh. I know that. What did y'all think I meant by:

We are seldom privy to a madman's political affiliations are we were in this tragic incident.

That doesn't exactly take rocket science to figure out, y'all. I guess I should have added "with a note" between the words 'affiliations' and 'are' in the quote above for the more dimwitted of the DR flock. My bad for expecting higher level thought from y'all

My bad for expecting higher level thought from y'all

Damn straight!

what a sick republican

"but go ahead and continue to argue that birth control has helped. maybe it has helped you but you can't argue that since the 60's (when we introduced the pill) we have a exponential explosion of abortion, unwed mothers, teenage pregnancy, poverty etc......"

I think Eberly is incapable of understanding that along with those problems, women have also, since the sixties, entered the work force and become competitive with men in most professions. He, being a right wing reactionary, may find that combative but us women who now occupy those positions previously forbidden to us find it empowering.
What he fails to see is that the problems of pregnancy are not a female problem but a human problem, it's just that half of the humans have preferred to allow only females to deal with it.
Pretending that male abdication of responsiblility for children somehow limits the potential of women is the self defeating fantasization of men about women. Apparently some have not been paying attention as women are graduating from college at higher rates and succeeding at higher rates. The men who don't realize that times have changed will be the road kill left behind as society progresses.

"That doesn't exactly take rocket science to figure out, y'all. I guess I should have added "with a note" between the words 'affiliations' and 'are' in the quote above for the more dimwitted of the DR flock. My bad for expecting higher level thought from y'all"

Posted by goatman at 2008-07-29 05:48 PM

You could have thrown an "as" in there someplace so that your sentence made sense--just a suggestion.

You could have thrown an "as" in there someplace so that your sentence made sense--just a suggestion.

Yep. I make typos just like you, bOoB.

Christian Terrorist Attacks US way of Life

That's my suggested title to replace what you have now - Church killer hated liberals, gays.

Republicans are always saying that Bush has stopped terrorism inside the US since 9/11 (they always forget about Antrax), but he hasn't, it keeps coming. Three Christian Terrorist acts just this week.....

Yep. I make typos just like you, bOoB.

Posted by goatman at 2008-07-29 11:33 PM | Reply

Well--you were correcting yourself and questioning the intelligence of everyone else except yourself--you had the chance to correct it--but you still didn't see it. Look to yourself for errors first.

;-)

Are we not all Americans first?
AMERICANUNITY

Answer: No.

We are not all Americans sadly, as some who reside in the USA have an allegiance to a foreign nation, and their actions prove it to be true.

But if it is a madman who hates liberals and gays, we can depend on people like rcade to make an extra special deal out of and stir up hatred.

It's weird how much effort Pinche is expending to make this discussion about *anything* other than a murderous nut killing liberals by targeting a Unitarian Church.

The story here is politically motivated hatred. It isn't hard to figure out why it's worth calling attention to this kind of thing, and I'm glad so much of the media has covered this angle of the shootings.

I remember George Carlin saying he was waiting for someone to go "apeshit" in a church. Just missed it by a few months.