"I voted against it because Obama voted for it, you never know, it could make a difference at the convention. I also could vote against it because there were enough votes to pass it so that my vote was irrelevant."

Hilary Clinton

Yes, that two-faced Clinton bitch again. Voting 'cause it's all about Obama.

Time will tell Corky, her new found ability to vote against the Bush administration is so far not impressing me. BTW, I didn't call her any names, I don't quite understand your need to be so revolting in so many of your posts.

The implication of your post was unambiguous.

Corky, it doesn't bother me that she, like Obama and the rest of the Senate are politicians. It was smart politics for her to vote against the measure even if she might still be selected for VP.

Really?

And here I thought Obama's was a "new kind of politics"?

Silly me.

At the risk of getting into the middle of a lesbo mud wrestle ......

Hillary! is entirely and only a political animule. She knew FISA would pass so it is safe for her to vote against it because all the rabid Dems will worship her.

McCain will win this year, but then it's an open election again. Hillary! is playng a cynical strategy to position herself for POTUS on the next cycle. She has to be the most leftist freak on the block now to get to the Dem nomination.

You may now return to your carpet beating

Apparently that "VP meeting" that Obambi had with the Hildabeast didn't go very well...

for her.

face it, you choose you favorite personality and the oligarchy marches on doing whatever the fuck they want, with or without a Democratic consent.

We picked up where England left off, only instead of bombing Niggers and Indians, we bomb Arabs and Asians.

Everything is done for money, but none of its yours, that's all there is to it. Even our self fulfilling Biblical death wish for Israel makes tons of money for the military Industrial Complex.

McCain will win this year, but then it's an open election again.

Vernon.

Not.

Good for Clinton, I don't actually think she believes any of what she said...but I'd like to imagine so. Obama however doing yet another flip-flop is coming closer and closer to losing my vote. The only "change" I'm seeing is him becoming more and more a typical politician...not that I'm all that surprised, I guess just disappointed. Who knows, I guess I can always "Hope" that he'll knock it off soon.

There was nothing wrong with this bill and everything covered to make it right.

Still get the oversight and the survellience over foreign folks.

The telecoms should get ammunity--as there is not one story about someone getting shafted who is an American citizen.

You can't just have trial lawyers making money over hallabalu..

And it applies that foreign folks are the target and not AMericans. And the courts oversee it for a year for the request...

So what is the big deal with this bill?

Quick - Someone grab a baseball bat and beat Vernon's carpet - the one on top of his head!

Murphy-
Watch your words when you call overseas.

"The telecoms should get ammunity--as there is not one story about someone getting shafted who is an American citizen."

That's because it's secret, and will remain so due in part to your obedience and fear, "conservative".

Murphy-
You do understand that all the "Constitutional" powers claimed granted under Article II by Bush apologists such as yourself will flow to the next President?

Danni, you're an idiot. Clinton voted against this trash because she has the brains to know that it's trash. Apparently she's got more balls than Obama, but from what I hear Jesse Jackson is being held on suspicion of stealing them.

"I voted against it because Obama voted for it, you never know, it could make a difference at the convention. I also could vote against it because there were enough votes to pass it so that my vote was irrelevant."

That's just bull shit danni and frankly am surprised at you.

Good for Clinton, at least she showed the ball to do what is right. Obama seems to have lost his way, it begs questions as to his PATRIOTISM and oath to the constitution.

Clearly Obama has shown that he lies with the corporate money.

Had Hillary been the nominee she would've voted exactly as Obama did.

No risk for her to vote no in this case.

And(sic..very sick) Obama'08 tattoo on her clit?

(TR has graciously (and anxiously) agreed to verify said proof personally)

Only if we can pry your shriveled, chapping lips away from it first....

Had Hillary been the nominee she would've voted exactly as Obama did.

No risk for her to vote no in this case.

Posted by Alexandrite

Her we have the winner.

Of course this is correct - as was Phil Gramm about the nation of whiners. Obama is not willing to die a martyr of the left, so he needs to gain ground in the middle. There have been no "flip-flops", if you examine the actual facts of the case, and the actual language of the bill. The extrememe left wing is and always has been a bunch of crybabies, and the die-hard Hillary crowd is almost as bad.

Give the guy a break, sit back and enjoy the continued laugh-fest of mumbling, bumbling utterances that is McCain and his campaign.

Not.

Posted by sitdown at 2008-07-10 11:13 PM | Reply

Time to spit in your hand, coz your wiener is getting dry.

WHACK! WHACK! WHACK!

Oh Hillary!

WHACK! WHACK! WHACK!

Someone grab a baseball bat and beat Vernon's carpet - the one on top of his head!

Posted by DUMPLING1 at 2008-07-11 12:30 AM | Reply

Your problem is a lack of carpet beating. You must be a fat girl in need of a severe carpet beating, but no guy wants to get close to you; your handle says it all

Obama is not willing to die a martyr of the left, so he needs to gain ground in the middle.

AHHH! I get it now. Our Constitutional principles are being sacrificed at the altar as an olive branch to people who have no such intentions of meeting you at the middle. I feel so much better now. Obama REALLY gets it.

Why Hillary voted the way she voted is irrelevant. She sought the high ground for whatever reason and took it. She now has the right to act as though she were defending the Constitution because she did.

Give the guy a break, sit back and enjoy the continued laugh-fest of mumbling, bumbling utterances that is McCain and his campaign.

Yeah, give the guy a break... He's just made a 180 on the position that he used to put a stake in the heart of Hillary and lock up the nomination...what's the problem? He isn't Bush so I have no problem with him fucking the Constitution in the ass.

I think the left has stalled out at Apologist Lane and Buyer's Remorse Boulevard.

"That's just bull shit danni and frankly am surprised at you."

When you look at her voting record its hard to see how I'm wrong. I absolutely do no buy the idea that she voted no for real policy reasons. Sorry, her history just won't support that idea.
I'm more surprised by Obama's vote than I was by hers. I think he actually miscalculated.

There have been no "flip-flops", if you examine the actual facts of the case, and the actual language of the bill.

Reaffirmed Obama's Senate office in December: Senator Obama unequivocally opposes giving retroactive immunity to telecommunications companies and has cosponsored Senator Dodd's efforts to remove that provision from the FISA bill. Granting such immunity undermines the constitutional protections Americans trust the Congress to protect. Senator Obama supports a filibuster of this bill, and strongly urges others to do the same...Senator Obama will not be among those voting to end the filibuster.--

If a politician "moves" to the left or right in order to get votes lets call them what they are; filthy rotten liars and cheats. Fucking thieves is what they are and they should be treated as such. Plenty of room in Gitmo for the whole lot of em. Considering the lifetime of racketeering some of these guys have put in let crank up Old Sparky and have us a good old fashioned BBQ!

Fuck all politicians and damn them all!

The ACLU will try to block this unconstitutional law:

Barack W. Obama

Its Barack McBush now?

Awesome...

Though I appreciate the votes of both my senators from NY, when it ultimately doesn't make a difference to the outcome all it really serves to do is provide a bit of cover to the Democratic Party, allowing us to tell ourselves that they are still on the side of the constitution.

"While this legislation does strengthen oversight of the administration's surveillance activities over previous drafts, in many respects, the oversight in the bill continues to come up short. For instance, while the bill nominally calls for increased oversight by the FISA Court, its ability to serve as a meaningful check on the President's power is debatable. The clearest example of this is the limited power given to the FISA Court to review the government's targeting and minimization procedures.

But the legislation has other significant shortcomings. The legislation also makes no meaningful change to the immunity provisions. There is little disagreement that the legislation effectively grants retroactive immunity to the telecommunications companies. In my judgment, immunity under these circumstances has the practical effect of shutting down a critical avenue for holding the administration accountable for its conduct. It is precisely why I have supported efforts in the Senate to strip the bill of these provisions, both today and during previous debates on this subject. Unfortunately, these efforts have been unsuccessful.

What is more, even as we considered this legislation, the administration refused to allow the overwhelming majority of Senators to examine the warrantless wiretapping program. This made it exceedingly difficult for those Senators who are not on the Intelligence and Judiciary Committees to assess the need for the operational details of the legislation, and whether greater protections are necessary. The same can be said for an assessment of the telecom immunity provisions. On an issue of such tremendous importance to our citizens - and in particular to New Yorkers - all Senators should have been entitled to receive briefings that would have enabled them to make an informed decision about the merits of this legislation. I cannot support this legislation when we know neither the nature of the surveillance activities authorized nor the role played by telecommunications companies granted immunity." - HC

I'll take that as reason enough to vote against this bill.

"If a politician "moves" to the left or right in order to get votes lets call them what they are"....attempting to win an election and prevent the right (Faux News) of branding them "weak on Terror."

Change You Can Believe In won't be change at all if Obama doesn't get himself elected and staking out a position against this bill could have provided an awful lot of "weak on terror" attacks from the right. I think he miscalculated but I do understand why he voted as he did...and yes....I do think it is more important for him to be elected than it was to vote against this bill. So sue me!

Change you can believe in???? You all need to face reality. Who ever is the next POTUS will only be just a figure head if there isn't a whole sale change in the House and Senate. What ever party is in the WH will be handcuffed by the opposite party. We need to have sweeping changes in Congress. If you really want your vote to count you need to oust the incumbents in the upcoming congressional races.

Hillary is merely positioning herself to the left of Obama for the convention. She could still get the nomination.

Let's think back just 8 short years.
Dumbya ran as something/someone completely different than what/who he actually is. Had he run as the blithering idiot, almost illiterate, clueless about everything, totally subservient moron to Cheney and the neocons, even the repubs wouldn't have voted for him.
He did what was necessary to get elected and then showed his true colors once in office.
Expect exactly the same from Obama.
The left to far left stance on everything sounds real nice but there was virtually no way Obama could get elected from that position. He knew it and I'm sure most posters here know it too. Looking back at his career, anyone can see he definitely ain't someone who believes in wire tapping Americans, more war, and damaging/limiting anyones constitutional rights.
Yep, he is a politician and in this election cycle, by far the best choice for POTUS.

Except in this case, polock, he may have made a bargain he can't renegotiate once elected.

Even he won't be president forever.

Then where are we?

"The left to far left stance on everything sounds real nice but there was virtually no way Obama could get elected from that position. He knew it and I'm sure most posters here know it too."
Posted by evilpolock

Ever wonder why 50% of the voting age population in this country doesn't vote?

Maybe its because candidates never do anything other than what is "necessary to get elected."

I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying that when you are running against a party that has always operated from a "win at all costs" viewpoint, putting idealism out in front usually results in nothing more than giving a nice concession speech.

"putting idealism out in front usually results in nothing more than giving a nice concession speech."

has that ever happened? I mean a major party candidate running on idealism?

It doesn't happen because we allow it to happen... we'd rather be on the winning side than the right side.

so maybe we do get the government we deserve.

Crooks all of time to put em in jail where they belong. At least the mob is honest about being crooked.

"we'd rather be on the winning side than the right side."

Considering the war the Republicans would drag us into, considering the nation would end up bankrupt, considering the SC nominees they would appoint who would allow this country to become a fascist dictatorship yes...you are god damned right winning is the MOST IMPORTANT THING RIGHT NOW AND DON'T YOU EVER FORGET IT.

LOL...tear em up, Danni!

Though I appreciate the votes of both my senators from NY

I ran in a race a couple years ago in Central NY called the Boilermaker... Chuck Schumer was there just making an appearance among the large crowd, and before the race began they announced he was there and thanked him for being there, very few applauded... then the announcer went on to ask for a round of applause for the racers in wheelchairs which natuarally got thunderous applause, but as the clapping started the announcer said, "And another for Chuck Schumer," and that douche actually raised his hand again to waive to the crowd... Before that I actually didn't mind the guy, but stealing applause from cripples just really annoyed me...

but stealing applause from cripples just really annoyed me...

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

yeah, I didn't say he wasn't an A_Hole. ;-) I just appreciated his vote this time around.

"...who would allow this country to become a fascist dictatorship..."

Posted by Danni

Uhm... I think you're a little late for that, Danni (aside from a hand full of token supreme court decisions to keep us from seeing it conclusively). You're talking about the choice between a benevolent dictator and malevolent dictator now.

Especially after yesterdays FISA Vote.

"The analogy between Senator Barack Obamas yea vote on Wednesday for the FISA amendment act and Senator Hillary Rodham Clintons yea vote in October 2002 for the Iraq resolution is not to be missed or understated."

Where's that, "Moment of Clarity Award"?

"Uhm... I think you're a little late for that, Danni"

I'm not quite so ready to accept that as a fact, we are still scheduled to have elections, let's see what happens when we do before we just give up hope.

""The analogy between Senator Barack Obamas yea vote on Wednesday for the FISA amendment act and Senator Hillary Rodham Clintons yea vote in October 2002 for the Iraq resolution is not to be missed or understated."

Or her vote to brand the Iranian Republican Guard as terrorists.

However, in spite of both of those votes I would have happily voted for her for president if she were the nominee. I expect most Dems will do the same with Obama even though he may not be as "pure" as they wished. He is still our only real hope at this point.

He is still our only real hope at this point.

Posted by danni

"Help me, Obie-Wan Kenobie. You're our only hope."

Princess "Danni" Leia, Star Wars

Sorry, had to do it. ;-)

Now my only hope is he isn't pulling he old jedi mind trick on us.

I just hope he doesn't have to keep the training wheels on that WH bike very long.

Hag,
Do you honestly think Obama is ANYWHERE near Bushco or McCain, from a policy or ideology standpoint?

Do you honestly think Obama is ANYWHERE near Bushco or McCain, from a policy or ideology standpoint?

Posted by evilpolock

Policy and ideology? No... Pragmatically, yes, without a doubt. And I'm afraid he'd spend most of the next four years giving more concessions to the right in an effort to secure (or not jeopardize) a re-election and I'll have to listen to the same arguments about how he's a political genius for doing so because, of course, he's better than republican candidate X of 2012 and that's all that matters.

And further down the slope we slip.

I'm not sure I understand all the hand-wringing about Obama's move to the middle. His message of "new politics" has always emphasized a lowering of the division between red and blue, and a decrease in partisanship. His only significant policy difference with Hillary was on health care reform, where his plan was less progressive than Hillary's. His move to the middle is an effort to bring people together, and anyone who is surprised by it wasn't paying very close attention to his "change" message. It wasn't a "change" to more progressive, partisan politics kids.

Good for Hillary on this vote, by the way.

"It wasn't a "change" to more progressive, partisan politics kids."

^^^OBOOBA APOLOGIST^^^

Fact!

"^^^OBOOBA APOLOGIST^^^

Fact!

Posted by James_Dean at 2008-07-11 01:26 PM"

^^^RETARDED POSTER^^^

FACT!

"It wasn't a "change" to more progressive, partisan politics kids."

^^^OBOOBA APOLOGIST^^^

Fact!

Posted by James_Dean

I would say Situational Constitutionalist. This is a phrase I heard a few days ago on C-SPAN's Washington Journal program. It means that people get outraged about the constitution being violated if the other party does it, but give thier guys a pass if they violate the constitution. Many people here who give Obama a pass on raping the fourth amendment have zero credibility when criticizing Bush, ZERO, ABSOLUTELY ZERO, ZIP, NADA. They forfeited their credibilty as defenders of the Constitution and Bill of Rights when they make excuses for Barack W. Obama.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those understand binary numbers, and those who don't. And there are 10 kinds of people in this world, thos who consistently support the Constitution, and those who don't.

The question everyone needs to ask themselves is which group are you part of?

kids.
Posted by mOntecOre

More condescension from the Obama camp. thanks.

I can't believe I can manage to get my shoes tied in the morning I'm so stupid.

Oh jesus christ, Hag. Chin up, kid.

More condescension from the Obama camp. thanks.

What ellse would you expect, Obama being such an elitist and all.

Yeah, we are all bitter because we cling to our privacy rights.

Oh jesus christ, Hag. Chin up, kid.

Posted by mOntecOre

At least that was funny flaggable.

Bob Barr is an unthrustworthy flip-flopping opportunist. Bob Barr is another Obama.

Yeah, we are all bitter because we cling to our privacy rights.

Posted by member2586

I had to read that twice, a couple of minutest apart from each reading, to realize how sadly funny that was. well done.

Only in America would politicians who fly on their own Lear Jets call someone raised by a single mom, who only paid off their student loans a few years ago an 'elitist'.

Funny.

....I do think it is more important for him to be elected than it was to vote against this bill.

Posted by danni at 2008-07-11 10:53 AM | Reply

Danni Drivel(tm) takes a bold stand in favor of expediency over morals.

Take note the next time (within hours of now) when she screeches about some politico changing his mind, flip-flopping, reversing stance or otherwise altering course.

vernon, Danni, along with others here, is just suffering from Battered Voter Syndrome. They feel they have no choice but to tolerate the abuse because they believe they have nowhere else to go. So they will just keep asking to be slapped in the face over and over again and will continue to make excueses. It's classic textbook Battered Voter Syndrome.

"They feel they have no choice but to tolerate the abuse because they believe they have nowhere else to go."

No, I just live in the real world where one vote doesn't destroy my faith in my candidate. Find me a "pure" presidential candidate and I'll show you Walter Mondale.

"If you suffer from the Battered Voter Syndrome, seek help immediately, don't tolerate the abuse anymore."

Yeah cuz a vote for Nader is a vote for McBush. Alito and Roberts now sit on the SC thanks to Nader. Thanks Ralph no go fuck yourself.

Danni, it's a matter of degree here. Many of Obama's flip-flops are defensible, like the campaign finance. But some issues strike at the core of Republic and are way to important to be sacrificed on the altar of political strategy.

If Obama is president he will have these FISA powers available to him. I doube he will call on congress to do away with them.

So obama was for it before he was against it..

jesus christ on a popsicle stick.. this man is amazing.

Yeah cuz a vote for Nader is a vote for McBush. Alito and Roberts now sit on the SC thanks to Nader. Thanks Ralph no go fuck yourself.

Posted by danni

yeah, its nader's fault that the election in '00 was close enough to steal... its so much easier to blame nader than to admit that, or to blame Gore for running a piss poor campaign.

Nader = Devil Incarnate.
Stealing elections = not bad enough to complain about.

I'm so glad we've got that straight.

"If Obama is president he will have these FISA powers available to him. I doube he will call on congress to do away with them."

Hagbard you can think what you will about Nader, I don't like him, never really have. I didn't like him even before he started his perpetual run for president. I used to drive a Corvair and like it.

Hagbard you can think what you will about Nader, I don't like him, never really have. I didn't like him even before he started his perpetual run for president. I used to drive a Corvair and like it.

Posted by danni

First, so because you wished to continue to drive unsafe at any speed our nation's problems are Nader's fault? that makes alot of sense... and to ignore the inconvenient truth of the substance of my post....?

second, I didn't make that last statement you quoted on FISA, that was member.

"Chin up? you mean like this?

Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2008-07-11 02:06 PM"

FF right back at you, Hag. That is a good'n, I don't care who ya are.

thanks, monte. have a good weekend. later.

Will do, you too Hagbard.

" I believe my responsibility requires that I vote against this compromise, and I will continue to pursue reforms that will improve our ability to collect intelligence in our efforts to combat terror and to oversee that authority in Congress."

Translation

"I am not running for President anymore so I found a conscience and now that the Rethugs can't use this issue against ME they can use it against Obama. But, you can't blame that on me! After all I am just voting my "conscience"."

-Billary