Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Wednesday, July 09, 2008

Raised a Baptist, Army Spc. Jeremy Hall spent his first deployment in Iraq with his Bible. Before his second tour he became an atheist, and that didn't set well with his fellow soldiers. He was denied a promotion, and finally was provided a bodyguard because of threats. Now he's suing -- not for money, but for his First Amendment rights.

Liberal Blog Advertising Network

Menu

Subscriptions

Author Info

OzarkAggie

MORE STORIES

Special Features

Comments

Admin's note: Participants in the discussion of this weblog entry should note the site's moderation policy.

So far I've met more atheists and agnostics who were raised as baptists than any other doctrine or denomination.

I wonder why that is...

I spent several years on active duty and don't recall anything like this ever happening. I would say the majority of people in my unit identified as Christian but most were very superficial in their religious beliefs; adultery, going to prostitutes, etc. were all pretty common. I also don't remember people lining up to go to church on Sunday.

We had a few moments of silence but no organized prayer. There were several openly atheist guys in my unit. The only issue I remember was when we were reissued ID tags, and theirs were marked "NO RELIG PREF" instead of "ATHEIST". Other than that, it never really came up.

I like the part where he says he was told since HE couldnt put aside HIS beleif.

Also finding it quite funny that Mr. Obama is falling hard on his christianity. That he must, clearly, appease another citizen or group of citizens religion. That a citizens religion could be used against them at all levels of society.
Then dare call themselves patriots.

The use of religion as a political weapon is a primary tool of terrorists.

Seems they do live amongst us, error, I'm sorry, around me.

what I don't get is how anyone could claim to believe in the gospel of the new testament and simultaneously believe that it is acceptable to kill whomever caesar says is their enemy.

i wish this guy luck.

and finally was provided a bodyguard because of threats.

geez, at least they didn't cut his head off, like the bad old islamofacists would do to a non-believer. He is, however, lucky he hasn't been Tillman-ed yet.

He is just trying to get out. Pussy faggot. Probably sucks cock.

The military is not a Christian organization.
Laughable.

Just because a certain number of people "profess" to be Christian, doesn't mean they truly are what they "profess" to be.

Katie,
I agree. My dog tags said "Floydism" for religion. I was on a Pink Floyd kick at the time.

I don't recall anyone even so much as mentioning religion. In basic training people went to church because if you didn't there was a barracks to clean! Everyone napped during the service if they could get away with it.

and simultaneously believe that it is acceptable to kill whomever caesar says is their enemy.

If Caesar is the Law, then render unto him.

Keep in mind that in Hebrew the word used in the 6th Commandment translates as "murder" and another word is used for legal executions and war.

Deputy Undersecretary Bill Carr said complaints of evangelizing are "relatively rare." He also said the Pentagon is not pushing one faith among troops.

(But when I began serving 35 years ago, the efforts of the Officers' Christian Fellowship was very strong, and it's members were ridiculously strict on those who were not part of the OCF "fraternity" and much laxer on those who were. It was only upon the start of the Bush Cheney administration that the fundies in uniform became more outspoken once again.)

Probably everyone involved here is in the wrong.

Seems like a bunch of crazy people with clashing personalities were forced to work together and this was the result.

Why don't Baptists have sex standing up?

.
.
.




Because that might be considered a form of dancing!

ba-da boom

Keep in mind that in Hebrew the word used in the 6th Commandment translates as "murder" and another word is used for legal executions and war.

So you're saying the Ten Commandments, the Divine Word of God, are translated wrong? Doesn't that mean the rest of the Old Testament is possibly wrong too?


He is just trying to get out. Pussy faggot. Probably sucks cock.

Posted by 08r4ever at 2008-07-09 10:45 AM | Reply | Flag:


Reading is fundamental, unless you're mental like 08r4ever.

Hey turd burglar, one of the reasons that he's suing is that this situation has damaged his ability to have a military career. These thumper types have been in the military for a long time and for the most part those of us not of their faith(s) just had to put up with it. I caught up good bit of crap about Judaism until one of the Catholics in my outfit took offense to what some of the Southern Baptists had to say. Although, once we arrived in RVN most of that crap vanished.

Why do you always take 2 Baptists fishing rather than just 1?

.
.
.
.
.
.

If you take just one, he'll drink all of your beer.

the Divine Word of God, are translated wrong?

Trust me, the Gentiles can fuck up anything.

"There are no athiests in a fox hole".

You said it Ozark.

"Christians who kill... ahh we're about out of ideas on this planet aren't we?"

- Bill

Keep in mind that in Hebrew the word used in the 6th Commandment translates as "murder" and another word is used for legal executions and war.

Posted by OzarkAggie

That's why I was speaking specifically about the new testament... it's more than abundantly clear that the torah justifies all kinds of reasons for taking life.

"Christians who kill... ahh we're about out of ideas on this planet aren't we?"

Posted by Manypaths

What makes the green grass grow?

Blood, Blood, BLOOD, Drill Sergeant!

"Christianity has a built-in defense system: anything that questions a belief, no matter how logical the argument is, is the work of Satan by the very fact that it makes you question a belief. It's a very interesting defense mechanism and the only way to get by it -- and believe me, I was raised Southern Baptist -- is to take massive amounts of mushrooms, sit in a field, and just go, "Show me.""

- Bill

"I spent several years on active duty and don't recall anything like this ever happening."

I have to half way agree with that. In my experiences there were 3 kinds of people in the military. Those who were always in the gym, those who were always in the bars and those who where religious zealots. But around the time I was getting out the religious nuts were becoming more and more prevalent.

I agree. My dog tags said "Floydism" for religion. I was on a Pink Floyd kick at the time.

I don't recall anyone even so much as mentioning religion. In basic training people went to church because if you didn't there was a barracks to clean! Everyone napped during the service if they could get away with it.

Posted by 101Chairborne

I can second that. I think I went to services more times while at basic than during the rest of my life combined. I consider myself atheist (but was more likely agnostic/deist at the time) but actually enjoyed the services I went to. This wasn't entirely because of the time off and AC, I actually really enjoyed the Chaplain's services. Plus, I really didn't like waxing floors and "base beautification" anyways.

Not that it justifies the harassment of the guy in the article but I think there must be some back story that isn't being told. There had to have been a catalyst that triggered all of this. In every unit I've ever served in, there was always a whole lot of sinning going on; it seems weird that the zealots would only go after the atheist. The adulterers, drunks, guys who go to hookers, etc. would have been much more obvious targets.

Also, I never served in Iraq but did serve in the Balkans awhile back. While deployed, all we really did was work, sleep, and eat. I can't imagine anyone having the time/energy to really go after somebody like this. Actually, I just remember the complete opposite kind of harassment. We had a young E2 in our unit who was dogged mercilessly for not sleeping with a hooker while on a 4-day pass to Bulgaria (he made the mistake of confiding to a friend that he was a virgin).

"Christianity has a built-in defense system: anything that questions a belief, no matter how logical the argument is, is the work of Satan by the very fact that it makes you question a belief.

Known in catholicism as pride of intellect.

For me, one of the most irksome cases has always been the rendering of the sixth commandment as "Thou shalt not kill." In this form, the quote has been conscripted into the service of diverse causes, including those of pacifism, animal rights, the opposition to capital punishment, and the anti-abortion movement.

Indeed, "kill" in English is an all-encompassing verb that covers the taking of life in all forms and for all classes of victims. That kind of generalization is expressed in Hebrew through the verb "harag." However, the verb that appears in the Torah's prohibition is a completely different one, " ratsah" which, it would seem, should be rendered "murder." This root refers only to criminal acts of killing.

Thou Shalt Not Murder

I was speaking specifically about the new testament...

There are many, many references to OT Law in the teachings of Jesus. If you claim he was the Messiah then he must have been an observant Jew who followed the Law and lived the Prophesy. He was the equivalent of today's Rabbi - or teacher.

Just compare the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew and Luke. Right there you have two versions of the same story.

But essentially he interpreted the Law rather than disavowing it.

This wasn't entirely because of the time off and AC, I actually really enjoyed the Chaplain's services. Plus, I really didn't like waxing floors and "base beautification" anyways.
Posted by katieberry

Isn't that an example of the type of discrimination being charged?

Either go to church or scrub toilets.

But essentially he interpreted the Law rather than disavowing it.

Posted by OzarkAggie

I remember him saying he came not to fulfill the law but to destroy it, or something to that effect.

WASHINGTON The Pentagon has assigned the task of tracking down and eliminating Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and other high-profile targets to an Army general who sees the war on terrorism as a clash between Judeo-Christian values and Satan.

Lt. Gen. William G. "Jerry" Boykin, the new deputy undersecretary of Defense for intelligence, is a much-decorated and twice-wounded veteran of covert military operations. From the bloody 1993 clash with Muslim warlords in Somalia chronicled in "Black Hawk Down" and the hunt for Colombian drug czar Pablo Escobar to the ill-fated attempt to rescue American hostages in Iran in 1980, Boykin was in the thick of things.


I knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol.

Lt. Gen. William G. Jerry Boykin, speaking about battle with a Muslim warlord

Yet the former commander and 13-year veteran of the Army's top-secret Delta Force is also an outspoken evangelical Christian who appeared in dress uniform and polished jump boots before a religious group in Oregon in June to declare that radical Islamists hated the United States "because we're a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christian ... and the enemy is a guy named Satan."

Discussing the battle against a Muslim warlord in Somalia, Boykin told another audience, "I knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol."

"We in the army of God, in the house of God, kingdom of God have been raised for such a time as this," Boykin said last year.

On at least one occasion, in Sandy, Ore., in June, Boykin said of President Bush: "He's in the White House because God put him there."


**** He is just trying to get out. Pussy faggot. Probably sucks cock.

Posted by 08r4ever *****

......so.....he looks Republican to you ?.......

I remember him saying he came not to fulfill the law but to destroy it

Catholicism? I've known several people raised in that fashion who later became Christians.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Matthew 5:17 KJV

'"Christianity has a built-in defense system: anything that questions a belief, no matter how logical the argument is, is the work of Satan by the very fact that it makes you question a belief.


Known in catholicism as pride of intellect.'

The Screwtape Letters is all about this stuff. Its actually an interesting read whether you're religous or not (I'm not and I liked it).


***** "There are no athiests in a fox hole".

Posted by keith204 *****

......and there are no deists in a foxy hole.......

"He's in the White House because God put him there."

I thought it was Karl Rove.

Well...at least we now know who to blame.

"Catholicism? I've known several people raised in that fashion who later became Christians."

LOL. This is why so many non-practicing Catholics still identify ourselves as "Catholic" rather than atheist/agnostic/don't care. If Catholicism annoys redneck bible thumpers it can't be all bad.....

"There are no athiests in a foxhole" KIETH204
No chickenhawks either.


But essentially he interpreted the Law rather than disavowing it.


Posted by OzarkAggie


I remember him saying he came not to fulfill the law but to destroy it, or something to that effect.

Posted by Hagbard_Celine

Wow! You are fucking OLD!

Although I agree that he has the right to be an atheist, I can also understand that if he is put in a position were he has to lead soldiers into battle and these soldiers find relief in believing, his beliefs (or lack of) could create uncertainty. As a figure of authority to these men-women, he could severely shake their belief system. Although he is a non-believer, he should realize that "playing along" has wider implications than his personal rights and freedoms: it's about building morale and not destroying any sense of comfort some might feel by thinking about resurrection, wings and puffy clouds.

If Catholicism annoys redneck bible thumpers it can't be all bad.....

The same can be said about reality!

And when he is in battle or a fire fight--


I bet he is praying.

As a figure of authority to these men-women, he could severely shake their belief system.

You are talking about Christians that are practicing and perfecting the act of taking the lives of fellow human beings.

Fuck them AND their 'belief systems'!

"KJV"

No Catholic trusts anything published in that heretical and self serving rewriting.

"And when he is in battle or a fire fight--


I bet he is praying."

Posted by MURPHY

Then he's wasting his time and more likely to be killed because he's not on task.

Ankles up!

(ewwwww, nevermind)

redneck bible thumpers...Sully

Surely you are not talking about me.


redneck bible thumpers...Sully


Surely you are not talking about me.

Posted by OzarkAggie

If the shoe fits..........

Wow, you Christians are f'ing nutbags.

it's about building morale and not destroying any sense of comfort some might feel by thinking about resurrection, wings and puffy clouds.

Posted by panchovilla

The guy I want to follow is one who thinks this could be the last day of life. In other words, once a man accepts his mortality he will fight to the death before giving up. It's an old tradition in the military to write your epitaph before battle.

If the shoe fits..........

Posted by Manypaths

Of late you seem to be digging at me. Try another route.

Of late you seem to be digging at me. Try another route.

Don't flatter yourself. You are among many.

"Surely you are not talking about me."

I was talking about people who feel perfectly comfortable hassling someone they barely know about their religion. I don't know if that is you or not.

Fuck them AND their 'belief systems'!

Posted by Manypaths at 2008-07-09 11:48 AM | Reply |

From an intellectual or philosophical pov, I agree. Our opinions differ on the practical front. As a commander, if I thought that my troops would perform better if they believe, I would at least not try to have them question their beliefs at a critical time.

When he catches a round in his head he may have a change of heart, never know maybe he is one of obama's buddies

At the sake of alienating others Pancho?

As a leader I would demand that all of my soldiers keep their 'belief systems' to themselves for the very same reasons you mention.


If some of my people (at work) take a specific religious tact with me, they get a special one-on-one conference with me that basically tells them to keep it to themselves and no body believes or cares about their bullshit anyway.

I always ask them if their religion keeps them from doing their job properly. It's a trick question but it puts the point into play. Do your friggin job, that's all!!!

Isn't that an example of the type of discrimination being charged?


Either go to church or scrub toilets.

Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2008-07-09 11:29 AM | Reply | Flag:

HC,

Nope, that's called being in the Army. You're not forced to be observant, just present.


When he catches a round in his head he may have a change of heart, never know maybe he is one of obama's buddies

Posted by Badeye at 2008-07-09 12:25 PM | Reply | Flag:


Ahh, yes, another one in whom the stupid is strong. May the farce be with you.

I naively asked once why there are chaplains with people whose job it is to kill. The DR's ersatz paratroopers jumped all over me. No reply, mind you, but I was called stoopid from all directions.

Maybe it's time to resurrect that, talk about the naval Holy Man, the greatest hypocrite I ever met, the Mormon kid who told us all how to behave until we caught him lurching out of a Yokosuka bordello.

But tell me again, you great upholders of testoterone and assailants of peaceniks as pussies, exactly what roles are Men Of God really supposed to play in the ungodly behavior we call war? herm

Keep racking them up Reagan!

Herm,

It's as natural and as old as there are armies. It's why Catch-22 was written. As someone that's partaken in combat I certainly have no answer and I'm about as anti-war as anyone here.


You pussy ;-)

Nope, that's called being in the Army. You're not forced to be observant, just present.

Posted by Reagan58

what about the post service barbecue and games?

sounds like religious based preference to me.

You are talking about Christians that are practicing and perfecting the act of taking the lives of fellow human beings.


Fuck them AND their 'belief systems'!
Dumbass.



You meant Muhammad: The Prophet of war and Islam, the Religion of war.

HC,

The point is that you can go to anyone of the multiple services on base or post. The synagogue on many posts is smaller and darker than the protestant facilities and guys went there to catch rack time. It's more about unit cohesion and shared activities that religion(or it used to be that way, I've been out longer than some here have been alive).

After reading this thread it is easy to see why this guy is having problems in the military as an atheist.

The majority of Americans approach life from the Judea Christian perspective and do not even consider other peoples point of view as valid.

There is a reason that they want you when you are young in the military. So that they can mold you into the "perfect" soldier. This requires some serious brainwashing. Christians are known to be perfect subjects for brainwashing as they accept unquestioningly some completely illogical myths already so they are ideal candidates for cannon fodder.

Atheists on the other hand tend to think for themselves and question authority...not such good cannon fodder.

So ...Onward Christian Soldiers!

It's more about unit cohesion and shared activities that religion
Posted by Reagan58

I understand, but don't you think there are more inclusive, less constitutionally questionable ways to achieve that end?

As a leader I would demand that all of my soldiers...

I changed my family doctor when he started putting up christian slogans and paraphernalia in his office. A person's faith or lack thereof is normally unimportant to me, but I don't want the person(s) in charge of my health or security operating with a safety net.

If he fucks up and misses a tumor or prescribes the wrong medicine, I don't want him to have the comfort of believing I'll just be fishing for crappie with Grampa Joe up in heaven.

I would apply the same logic to soldiers fighting with me. I wouldn't want them thinking if things go tits up we will just be whisked away to a better place. I'm scared of death. I believe after death we have a cold dark hole in the ground, I would want the people fighting alongside me to feel victory is the only way out.

You meant Muhammad: The Prophet of war and Islam, the Religion of war.

Actually, when it comes to killing, nobody can hold a candle to Christians.

Christians have killed more people than all other religious groups combined.

Atheists on the other hand tend to think for themselves and question authority...not such good cannon fodder.


So ...Onward Christian Soldiers!

Posted by donnerboy at 2008-07-09 12:59 PM | Reply | Flag


This statement is either false allegory or non sequiter, I'm not sure which. An atheist trained well as a soldier can be EXACTLY as good a soldier as a Christian, Jew, Mulsim, Flying Spaghettiite or what have you. If you've been through basic then you know there's very little that's godly or religious about that process.

Anyone who insults or even opposes Muhammad or his people deserve a humiliating death-by beheading if possible.In accordance with Allah's command to"smite the necks" of the "unbelievers"
(Qur'an 47:4)

but don't you think there are more inclusive, less constitutionally questionable ways to achieve that end?

Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2008-07-09 01:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

HC,

Sure there are, but I was always awfully happy to have those couple of hours a week that did NOT involve running, climbing, humping shit around or cleaning something. I'd wager good money that most of the grunts now feel the same.

I was in the military and I never heard any flack over being Buddhist. If you want to pray go ahead, if my brothers wanted to pray I sat silently and showed respect.

Fucking Buddhists, always bringing that pacifist crap up.

Christians have killed more people than all other religious groups combined.


Posted by Manypaths at 2008-07-09 01:04 PM


Wrong--Communists killed more--they are atheists and that is a religion in the belief of nothing as a higher being.

Excuse me Reagan there is nothing wrong with promoting peace. We should only fight when it's a last resort.

This statement is either false allegory or non sequiter, I'm not sure which. An atheist trained well as a soldier can be EXACTLY as good a soldier as a Christian, Jew, Mulsim, Flying Spaghettiite or what have you. If you've been through basic then you know there's very little that's godly or religious about that process.

Posted by Reagan58 at 2008-07-09 01:04 PM

Nice try Reagan...an Atheist CAN be a BETTER soldier (and personally I think they are!) as he/she will never be distracted by praying to false Gods etc. but, as for undergoing the brainwashing in bootcamp and accepting orders without question it is a lot harder for an atheist than the Christian who does things on "faith" than an atheist who does things based on ONLY common sense and understanding the big picture (no faith in a higher power involved).

I know first hand because I was one of those and it was very tough on me. I barely survived my four year tour with a good conduct medal.

It was a joke son, a joke I tellsya.

Lets look at Jesus vs. Muhammad

"Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" Jesus (Matthew 5:44)


" Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, of Allah and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know." (Qur'an 8:60)

Islam is still using the Qur'an to justify terrorism today. Christians are not. We are acting in self defense against terrorists.


Good thing we dont have a Muslim military ,this guy would be beheaded.

Muhammad the Raider, warrior , and pedophile.

The guy I want to follow is one who thinks this could be the last day of life.

Wearing a suicide belt? Or the guy flying the Zero into the aircraft carrier?
###

Anyone who insults or even opposes Muhammad or his people deserve a humiliating death-by beheading if possible.In accordance with Allah's command to"smite the necks" of the "unbelievers"
(Qur'an 47:4)


Posted by controlledpairs
sort of like a Christian eating lobster? (leviticus)
Or just being jews?

face it-all religions are whacky.

Donnerboy,

Of course, if you break it down to individuals, any particular athiest can be a better soldier than any individual religious person. I'm talking about everyone that goes through that nutbusting process of basic and the indoctrination accompanying. Harder for an atheist? I hardly think so, it's a bitch for all involved except the bastard DI's. I'm convinced they have way too much fucking fun at that job.

At the sake of alienating others Pancho?

As a leader I would demand that all of my soldiers keep their 'belief systems' to themselves for the very same reasons you mention.

Posted by Manypaths at 2008-07-09 12:33 PM | Reply |

At the sake of responding to the majority's beliefs. I'm agnostic but my gfriends parents are practicing catholics. When I have supper at their place, they say grace. I don't pray or cup my hands but observe the silence out of respect. When my gfriend's parents are at a table where the majority does not say grace, they respect the situation.

Hypothetically, if the majority of soldiers under my command are believers, I would respect their belief out of respect but mostly because I belive that their belief system helps them to cope with an impossible situation.

Islam is still using the Qur'an to justify terrorism today

Posted by controlledpairs at 2008-07-09 01:16 PM | Reply | Flag

Are you Karl Rove's brother TurdChaser? NO, terrorists are using Qur'an to justify their acts. Most members of the Isamic faiths don't believe that anymore than most Southern Baptists believing in bombing abortion clinics. Although, living here in the Land of Dixie it's possible that the "bombing belief brigade" is a touch higher.

NG3--

You know that when Jesus came here--the old laws of the Old Testament did not need to be applied or adhered to.

MP -- You claim "Christians have killed more people than all other religious groups combined."

Let's see:

1. As a percentage of its world's population, the pagan Roman's had a grim way of dealing with their foes. Read up on your history. Gaul, Carthage, etc.

2. When they were leaders of Persia, Xerxes and Darius had some horrible ways of dealing with dissenters and enemies. Must be genetic. Things have gotten better only by degree. (In contrast, Alexander was a virtual saint.)

3. Were Genghis Khan and Hulagu converts to Islam? Whatever, you wouldn't have wanted to cross paths with them in their marches West.

4. Why is there so much bad blood in India between the Hindus and Muslims? Has to do with the benevolence which the Mughals showered upon their fellow non-Muslim countrymen and women. Ouch, that was some hard love.

5. Lenin, Beria and Stalin were not Christians. They disavowed Chrisitanity and their violence cannot be attributed to belief or "defense" of any deity.

6. Ditto for Hitler and Himmler.

7. Tojo and the Japanese military did not march on China, Korea and the Philippines in defense of Allah or Christ. Nope. Shintoism, all the way.

8. Chairman Mao probably had more of his own coutrymen killed during his life than Stalin or Hitler did. The horrors of the Cultural Revolution and all of the purges before it will always be subject of approximation, but as a percent of China's population, it was probably less than Hitler's and Stalin's travesties were.

And you might be thinking about some travesties committed by people who are Christian -- I'll try to address those next.

Good thing we dont have a Muslim military ,this guy would be beheaded.

Well according to the Bible, you need to kill this man asswhipe.

"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death." (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

And you have a lot of fags to kill. You had better get on it:

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Oh, and don't forget those active heteros either:

"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)"

And for those who spooned Suzy Bedwetter in HS? Better get that fire started:

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)


How do you begin to justify your blind hypocricy?

You know that when Jesus came here--the old laws of the Old Testament did not need to be applied or adhered to.

Posted by MURPHY at 2008-07-09 01:26 PM | Reply | Flag:


Say what?!?! Is it your assertion that Jesus has vsisted our fair DR or are you trying to spread the message that because you believe that some entity named Jesus may or may not have been born ~2000 years ago that the teaching of all the Old Testament laws and scripture were thrown out the window hole(no glass back then)? Jews believe something entirely different, others do as well. Proseletyze elsewhere.

ankles up!

the old laws of the Old Testament did not need to be applied or adhered to.

Yeah, Murphy's Law reigns supreme.


Luther espoused that the angry God of the OT was discarded for kinder, gentler God of the NT. Of course Luther used to self-flagellate. A regular prude he was...so in the absence of the OT God he whipped himself.

I guess after taking a vow of poverty he couldn't afford a dominatrix.

Dr. Seusss for perverts

I don't like whips
I don't like chains

Silk ties will work
Pleasure not pains

MP, part II -- Possible travesties you had in mind?

a. Hiroshima & Nagasaki -- Yes, very grim, done because it would save an extimated 200,000 to 500,000 landwar lives and speed up recovery. Dubious logic, perhaps, but not done as an acto of defense of Allah or Christ; simply done to expeditiously end a war started by the Japanese militarists years before.

b. European expansion and conquest of the America's? -- Hmmm, perhaps, but most of the initial die-off of native Americans was accidental transmission of diesase. The trade off, European conquistadors brought back syphlis to the Old World. Again, not a religious war but a conquest based on economics first.

c. The Crusades? -- A poorly managed medieval response to continual attempts by the Arabs to conquer Europe and harrass and persecute European pilgrims to the Holy Land (Read about Eg. Caliph Hakim's terrible persecutions of pilgrims that led to the First Crusade). Despite the initial commission by the Pope, all of the subsequent Crusades were rather amateurish attempts to gain glory, fame and riches rather than Holy Wars.

d. Colonialism and slavery? -- Again, not done for religious purposes as much as for economic gain. In the slave trade, the Arabs served as the master slave dealers, and they still adhere to their right to have and trade in human slaves.

e. The 1910s Armenian Genocide? -- Oops, the Armenians didn't kill any Christians or Muslims. That doesn't belong here.

f. The Hundred Years War and other European internal Holy Wars? -- Yes, these were theologically inspired wars, akin to the Arabian Peninsula's Wars of Apostasy after Muhammad and Abu Bakr. How many died as a result of this conflict? Please tell me.

There was a movie with Jodie Foster and it involved travelling to another world.

When it came time to pick someone to go, she wasn't chosen because she didn't believe.

What was considered was her character's effect on those she would meet. If they believed, her non-belief would be a conflict.

So, a different ambassador was chosen.

The leader of a crowd must have the crowd following the leader.

TC

Christians have killed more people in the last 100 years than all you have mentioned.

Start by counting the millions in Iraq and work your way backwards to the millions killed in the bible alone. These bookends account for 4-5 million alone.

2000 years of Christians killing people at an astonishing rate.

The numbers are HUGE.

it's a bitch for all involved except the bastard DI's. I'm convinced they have way too much fucking fun at that job.

Posted by Reagan58 at 2008-07-09 01:21 PM

ummm I agree with that part at least!

"What was considered was her character's effect on those she would meet. If they believed, her non-belief would be a conflict."

Never mind the reverse possibility.

"So, a different ambassador was chosen."

In the end, she went anyway, right?

Moneypants:


PC myth-Islams war teachings are only a small element of the religion.

Truth-" And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the paces whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter." (Qur'an 2:192)

The verses you and most Christian Apoligists/Haters/Athiests Quote from the Bible are not taken literally by most Jews and Christians. It is not the same with Islam.

"Quote from the Bible are not taken literally by most Jews and Christians."

Don't tell Nanc and Murphy.

Maybe he should get the Theo Van Gogh treatment as in 2004 in Holland. Goddamned murdering Christians! Oops, or the Daniel Pearle treatment.

And the Crusades were not acts of unprovoked aggression by Europe against the Islamic world,but a delayed response to centuries of Muslim aggression.


Wannabe Reagan sez-

Are you Karl Rove's brother TurdChaser? NO, terrorists are using Qur'an to justify their acts. Most members of the Isamic faiths don't believe that anymore than most Southern Baptists believing in bombing abortion clinics. Although, living here in the Land of Dixie it's possible that the "bombing belief brigade" is a touch higher.


Get yourself informed asshole before you run your sewer.

The 4 principal schools of Sunni Muslim jurisprudence are 1)the Maliki 2)Hanafi 3) Hanbali 4) Shafi'i, which the great majority of Muslims worldwide belong.(how many billion people)These schools made laws centuries ago regarding the importance of jihad and the ways in which it was to be praticed,however, that doesnt mean these laws are ancient history and have been superceded by more recent rulings.It is a commonly accepted principle in the Islamic world that free inquiry into the Qur'an and Islamic tradition in order to discover Allahs rulings have been closed for centuries.(tolerance huh).

In other words Islamic teaching on principle matters has long been settled and is not to be questioned.

PC Myth- Islam is a Religion of peace that has been hijacked by a tiny minority of extremists.

Truth-Islam is a religion of peace that will come when everyone is Muslim or at least subject to the Islamic state. And to establish that peace Mulims must wage war.
War against nonbelievers is the doctrine,theology and legal system of Islam.

"I'll come back on this thread later when I can say something halfway intelligent.

Posted by CalifChris at 2008-07-09 02:45 PM"

We'll miss you.

How you know you are being Mind-controlled by your religion:

When you believe all religions are myths - except yours!

Bwahahaha.

"...geez, at least they didn't cut his head off, like the bad old islamofacists would do to a non-believer...Posted by northguy3 "

Oh yeah? I suppose your 'God-Blessed' American Soldiers only have blood on THEIR hands by proxy. You see those Cluster Bombs tend to Cluster Fuck a lot of peoples lives.

Bwahahahahahaha.

"...He is just trying to get out. Pussy faggot. Probably sucks cock...Posted by 08r4ever"

Faggots want out of the military? That's why the military has discharged 10,000 of thousands of gays and lesbians serving in the military 'in the closet' until some bullshitting christian comes along and outs them.

Christianity is not only BAD for Morale. It's just plain BAD for the planet.

Drop the religion and step away from your Dellusions!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Its not just Muhammads opinion, its the Law.


In is an unpleasant fact that violent jihad warfare against unbelievers IS NOT a heretical doctrine held by a tiny minority of extremists, but a constant element of mainstream Islamic theology.ISLAMIC LAW contains unmistakeable affirmations of the centrality of jihad against unbelievers. See the aforementioned post of the 4 main Sunni Muslim schools.(the majority of Muslims worldwide belong to these 4 schools)

Why does that retard hermaphrodite still want to know why there are chaplains in the military? It was explained to that blockhead once already and that was once too many.

Why in the fuck do you think there are chaplains in the military you fool?

"Christians have killed more people in the last 100 years than all you have mentioned.


Start by counting the millions in Iraq and work your way backwards to the millions killed in the bible alone."
--MANYPATHS

What killings in the bible ocurred within the last 100 years?

"2000 years of Christians killing people at an astonishing rate."
--MANYPATHS

Unfortunate that they missed your ancestors.

Wrong--Communists killed more--they are atheists and that is a religion in the belief of nothing as a higher being.

Posted by MURPHY at 2008-07-09 01:12 PM | Reply |


Show me the money or stfu.

Nothing worse than a former Christian who is now an atheist. Their ranting and proseletizing are legendary and they are a pain in the ass. The other soldiers were probably tired of his non stop sermons and wanted to beat the shit out of him just to get him to shut the fuck up.


"...Wrong--Communists killed more--they are atheists and that is a religion in the belief of nothing as a higher being....Posted by MURPHY"

WRONG AGAIN CHRISTIAN MORON:

Communist Russia was NOT atheist. The Russian Orthodox Church fluorished in Russia under communism and was the OFFICIAL STATE CHURCH. Religion was 'the opiate of the masses' and the Communists were more than happy to feed it to them.
Communists purged racial peoples and free thinkers.

Communism separted Church and State and KEPT IT THAT WAY.

Now you shut the fuck up you ignorant piece of shit.

"Nothing worse than a former Christian who is now an atheist."
--FWTHOM

As a Christian myself, I'll take that over some punk who just turned Christian and thinks it's his holy duty to make me stop listening to rock music and stop drinking beer.

Nothing worse than a former Christian who is now an atheist

Posted by fwthom at 2008-07-09 04:14 PM | Reply | Flag

Lot's of worse things than that:

A dry drunk living in the White House

A VPOTUS that would sell out our nation for profits

A US Senator sexing up all the men's room with boys

A war for oil where America gets none of the oil

A mental midget like you opening your hole

Christians have killed more people in the last 100 years than all you have mentioned.

A spurious comment, if there ever was one, designed to appeal to those who need to stereotype or who all ready do.

For the moment, put aside the unvalidated numbers claim. What is your point? That Christianity makes people murder? You are suggesting a kind of cause and effect.

If so, please explain how Christianity--a belief in Jesus Christ as Divine-- causes people to become murderers.

As you do this please explain how you separate out all other social, economic, ideological, intellectual, psychological, emotional, philosophical, political, variables throughout history so that you know precisely that it was people's Christian beliefs that turned them into murderers.

PAX


I do remember that if you didn't attend one of the three church services (Jewish, Catholic & Christian) they provided while in boot camp, you had to scrub shitters for the entire day.

Needless to say, I was raised a catholic and thought I could stomach sitting in a soft, padded chair singing songs with my friends a lot easier than could scrubbing shitters.

As for after bootcamp, unless you want to make religion an issue, it generally won't be one.

I did run into it once with a Work Center Sup (E-6) who looked and talked about the bible the same way Ned Flanders does. He was a Mormon and would talk incessantly about the bible and would limit the music we could play in the work center (no rock music). Needless to say, I transferred out asap and he was told numerous times to tone down his preaching ways, even by others who, in my opinion, were very religious. That's how much this guys life was run by the bible.

I stand by my third paragraph in that if you don't want YOUR religion to be an issue, it won't. Just don't advertise it and nobody will ever ask either way.

MP -- Sorry, I don't get your hypothesis. Please clarify:

1. "Christians have killed more people in the last 100 years than all you have mentioned."
-- That's a lot mentioned (Hitler, ~3MM; Stalin, ~5MM; Tojo, ~2MM; Armenia, ~.7MM; Mao, ~12MM?, +/-). So who did the Christians do in since 1908? And did they do it to defend the honor of their religion and God? If not that's like saying people with two legs are killers, because their is no link between their being Christian and their act of killing.

2. "Start by counting the millions in Iraq and work your way backwards to the millions killed in the bible alone. These bookends account for 4-5 million alone."
-- a. Ok, let's try to separate fact from myth. We have disputed reports on the number killed in Iraq, with a wide range from 20,000 to 500,000, and tht's not a million. Of the Iraqis killed, nmany have died as a result of the civil war that ensued after the fall of Saddam, and to the best of my knowledge, the Christians and Jews of Iraq disproportionately have suffered the most. And further, most of the deaths in Iraq have been due to sectarian violence, with Sunnis and Shiites doing most of the killing. Last I looked, not many Sunnis or Shiites count as Christian.
-- b. The Bible killings are hard to quantify, but there aren't many incidents of Christians killing anyone in the New Testament, and Revelations is a book of (arguably) allegorical phrophesy. So where are the millions of cases of Christians killing anyone in the New Testament?
-- c. If you are referring to the Old Testament, how can you calculate how many people were really killed? And who killed whom? Muslims believe that all of the Old Testament prophets were Muslime, but Christians don't beleive that any of the Old Testament prophets were Christian. So where are the Christians in teh Old Testament?

I'd love to understand your claims. But if you want to be taken seriously, please back up the wild claims with facts.

"Why does that retard hermaphrodite still want to know why there are chaplains in the military? It was explained to that blockhead once already and that was once too many. Why in the fuck do you think there are chaplains in the military you fool?'

Goldbrick, you didn't answer it then and you haven't answered it now. In the time I've seen you bad-mouth "pussies, whimps and commie faggot traitors" who post REAL ideas, you've NEVER once given an opinion other than that your intellectual superiors are stoopid.

Now take your best shot, donkey cock. You claim to be the veteran's veteran. Tell us WHY there are chaplains in the military. herm


Katie,
I agree. My dog tags said "Floydism" for religion. I was on a Pink Floyd kick at the time.


Posted by 101Chairborne at 2008-07-09 10:52 AM

Further proof that the Poodle never even sniffed the service.

If so, please explain how Christianity--a belief in Jesus Christ as Divine-- causes people to become murderers.

Because OUR GOD is BIGGER than THEIR GOD and we are going to prove it with our BIG ARMY ...dam it!

Lt. Gen. William G. Jerry Boykin, speaking about battle with a Muslim warlord

Yet the former commander and 13-year veteran of the Army's top-secret Delta Force is also an outspoken evangelical Christian who appeared in dress uniform and polished jump boots before a religious group in Oregon in June to declare that radical Islamists hated the United States "because we're a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christian ... and the enemy is a guy named Satan."

Discussing the battle against a Muslim warlord in Somalia, Boykin told another audience, "I knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol."

"We in the army of God, in the house of God, kingdom of God have been raised for such a time as this," Boykin said last year.

On at least one occasion, in Sandy, Ore., in June, Boykin said of President Bush: "He's in the White House because God put him there."

Posted by northguy3 at 2008-07-09 11:32 AM

Onward Christian Soldiers!
Marching as to War!

I believe that a true Christian would opt out of any Army.

Who would Jesus bomb Grendel?

Because OUR GOD is BIGGER than THEIR GOD and we are going to prove it with our BIG ARMY ...dam it!

You point to a human tendency to deem one's own beliefs to be so superior that it justifies the eradication of someone with different beliefs.

Human beings do this with religious beliefs, political beliefs, philosophical beliefs, ethnic identities, etc. Hell they do it on a smaller scale with world cup soccer.

Christianity or religion is not the source of the this human tendency to violence. It is built into our hardwiring. Eliminate a theism such as Christianity and some other "ism" will rush in to fill the void. Look at history and human nature and you know this to be true. Atheism is just as susceptible. (Many atheists here "know" they are superior to others--hence this argument.) Any "ism" properly stirred by a charismatic leader can raise violence.

Some followers of Christianity have done this. That is true. Even good beliefs can be twisted as long as a twisted charismatic leader exploits people's insecurities and fears in order to create an us versus them mentality. History is filled with examples. Again the problem is human nature, not necessarily the belief. For example, if you are going to lay all those deaths on a belief system such as Christianity then you must similarly lay every death in Iraq on democracy. (I am not going to hold my breath waiting for you to denounce democracy. Of course, you wouldn't. That doesn't make sense, does it?)

Anway,

The problem with Christianity is not that so many practice it; it is that so very few actually practice it.

As GK Chesterton once said: "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried."

Who would Jesus bomb? Why would Jesus have to bomb anyone? It seems we human beings do more than world can take on our own.

PAX

The problem with Christianity is not that so many practice it; it is that so very few actually practice it.

Yeah sure Grendel. I see in religion the same bad logic, divorced-from-reality idealism I see in politics and economics. The two reinforce each other.

Remember that as the American economy collapses and sinks into some form of totalitarianism.

"The problem with Christianity is not that so many practice it; (but so) few actually practice it."

The problem is that although many people have lived by "believe we we do or we'll kill you," Christianity has had both the technology and the heartlessness.

Grendel purports to speak for his ilk with "Who would Jesus bomb? Why would Jesus have to bomb anyone?" but his ilk is not tuned in. And they're outnumbered by those who deem anyone worrying over Jesus' explosive druthers as pussies, whimps and faggot commie traitors. herm

And the No. 1 foe of faggot commie traitors is mighty mum on "why chaplains." herm

Yeah sure Grendel. I see in religion the same bad logic, divorced-from-reality idealism I see in politics and economics. The two reinforce each other.


Remember that as the American economy collapses and sinks into some form of totalitarianism.

Without idealism there would not have been an America to collapse.


PAX

The problem is that although many people have lived by "believe we we do or we'll kill you," Christianity has had both the technology and the heartlessness.


Grendel purports to speak for his ilk with "Who would Jesus bomb? Why would Jesus have to bomb anyone?" but his ilk is not tuned in. And they're outnumbered by those who deem anyone worrying over Jesus' explosive druthers as pussies, whimps and faggot commie traitors. herm

Fine. Whatever. If that is your position. If my previous post didn't change your mind, then I don't think I can provide an argument that will. When confronted with a thought out counter argument, simply point your finger more vigorously and repeat your position more emotionally.

This is precisely what "isms" can do to people. They can close minds.


I think democracy is the root of evil. It is the democratic countries who have developed the bomb and have used it on another. It is the democratic countries that have invaded other countries or exploited them to satisfy their own consumerism. If there is global warming, it is the democratic countries that use the most fossil fuels and have contributed to it and then drag their feet to do anything about it.

Obviously democracy is evil.

Logic, (essentially your logic) leads me to this conclusion.



PAX

Got news for you Grendel. There are practical ideals and divorced-from-reality ideals. There is the ideal of working for what you want and the ideal of voting for what you want.

America was built on the former and is collapsing under the weight of the latter. I don't know of one organized religion who recognizes the criminal nature of government.

So dismiss any idea the religions provides moral leadership. It doesn't!

I think democracy is the root of evil. It is the democratic countries who have developed the bomb and have used it on another.

Actually, communist countries hold the record for most killing.

When Lord Acton said "power corrupts; absolute power corrupts," he had the pope in mind, but statement is true for politics too.

Got news for you Grendel. There are practical ideals and divorced-from-reality ideals. There is the ideal of working for what you want and the ideal of voting for what you want.

And thank God you are here to tell us which ideals are the "real" ones, the good practical ones, the ones we should adhere to.

If you weren't an atheist, you would want to be Pope.

PAX

If you weren't an atheist, you would want to be Pope.

Fuckin' A. I've been thinking of converting and fast tracking myself through the ranks just for a shot at that uber-cool hat.

"Actually, communist countries hold the record for most killing."

Well of course that's nonsense. There were no so-called communist countries until 1917, after over a century or two of capitalist atrocities: slavery, sweatshops, colonialism, etc.

We do live in a real world Grendel. And there is a skill to understanding how it works. In some cases, I can point out to people which ideals work and which don't. There is much history to support my assertion that religion and politics don't live up their ideals. But as a realist, I expect to be ignored.

If you weren't an atheist, you would want to be Pope.

But I am an atheist because I wouldn't even want to be a theist.

There were no so-called communist countries until 1917, after over a century or two of capitalist atrocities: slavery, sweatshops, colonialism, etc.

LOL. Atrocities, indeed they were, but did slavery, sweatshops, and colonialism bump off 20m in one regime as Josef Stalin did? I don't think so.

Grendel uses many words to conclude, facetiously, that "(o)bviously democracy is evil."

In fewer words, I hope, here's the crux of the matter, Grendy:

REAL democracy implies a level playing field for conflicting ideas. We do thesis and antithesis, and out of the two comes synthesis. Something we could roughly label as truth. John Stuart Mill told us that truth would always come free free speech.

Our land lacks that, Grendy. We have corporations. Corporations have bucks. Bucks, Grendy, get you to vote against your own best interests every time. Bucks explain Nixons, Reagans and Bushes when so many better people are available.

Corporations, Grendy, do invade other lands if they want the assets of other lands. They don't much care if YOU die in globally warmed hell holes or not. herm

Nulli

Go to Amazon and get a copy of "The Black Book of Communism." Capitalist countries don't begin to compare.

the biggest problem with hall's situation is that the service isn't a job that you can decide to transfer to a different branch or resign whenever you'd like.

when i was in basic training about ten of us were selected to go to a "special training service" for one weekend. it wasn't until we got there that we found out that it was to proselytize but only on a "voluntary" basis. the only thing voluntary about it was that the chaplain would volunteer to delay the meeting until everyone was present. this actually meant every meeting because he would track down anyone who wasn't present.

...truth would always come FROM free speech. You knew that. herm

You mean the same book who authors have admitted making huge mistakes that exaggerated death tolls?

The authors attribute 100 million deaths to the the communists.

65 million in China alone and 20 million to the Soviets.

You mean the same book who authors have admitted making huge mistakes that exaggerated death tolls?

Proof?

We do live in a real world Grendel. And there is a skill to understanding how it works. In some cases, I can point out to people which ideals work and which don't. There is much history to support my assertion that religion and politics don't live up their ideals. But as a realist,. .

You are a realist who believes in ideals?

I don't think so, but you know yourself better than I do.

Better yet, I will pay you a compliment.

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to
function." - F. Scott Fitzgerald


PAX

just for a shot at that uber-cool hat...goat

rCade is probably wearing his miter right now, prancing around in his satin sarong - remember buffalo bill in Silence of the Lambs?

remember buffalo bill in Silence of the Lambs?

With his balls and dick tucked between his legs? ugh

"Proof?

Posted by Ray "

I have no more proof of how accurate the "Black Book" is than you do.

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas at the same time and still function. - F. Scott Fitzgerald"

George Orwell had a much more concise label for that ability. He called it doublethink. It was one of the many factors that made Orwell's "1984" so frighteningly real. herm

REAL democracy implies a level playing field for conflicting ideas. . . .We do thesis and antithesis, and out of the two comes synthesis. Something we could . . . of other lands. They don't much care if YOU die in globally warmed hell holes or not. herm

Okay, capitalism is the root of all evil. Take one "ism" and simply replace it with another. That was my point.

When you stop hacking at the multitude of branches of the tree of evil, you will find its roots are found in the human heart and mind.

(Fortunately, goodness is also found there too.)

PAX

P.S. Thank you for repeating my name so much in your post. You must really enjoy typing it.

I have no more proof of how accurate the "Black Book" is than you do.

Here's another source with a perspective on democracy and freedom.

www.hawaii.edu

"Here's another source with a perspective on democracy and freedom.

www.hawaii.edu"

Thanks for that link, Ray. I've seen it before. And it proves my point. Estimates of deaths vary wildly, even from the same commentator!

"Among all the democide estimates appearing on this website, some have been revised upward. I have changed that for Mao's famine, 1958-1962, from zero to 38,000,000. And thus I have had to change the overall democide for the PRC (1928-1987) from 38,702,000 to 76,702,000. "

From zero to 38 million!!! That was some update he received from an event that happened in the late 50s!

You are a realist who believes in ideals?

No. A realist will adjust his goals according to the information at hand. An idealist will ignore countervailing information. Nulli is a perfect example of an idealist.

Nulli

Whatever. The point being that centralized power in any form is dangerous and lethal. The citizens of a nation are more at risk form their own government than they are from foreign enemies.

"The point being that centralized power in any form is dangerous and lethal."

Including multinational corporations. Do you realize that over 51% of the world's largest economies are centrally planned corporations?

No. A realist will adjust his goals according to the information at hand. An idealist will ignore countervailing information.

I would assume then your personal ethics are fluid and change according to the situation.

So, if this world changed and it becomes practical and beneficial for you to kill an innocent person to attain your individual goals, you would not hestitate to do it.

Certainly the belief that everyone has inalienable rights such as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is merely the fantasy of an unrealistic idealist. When believing that runs contrary to your personal goals, you will naturally ditch those beliefs.

Perhaps, I am missing your point entirely. Do you hold any ideals which cannot be changed or discarded no matter what the circumstances dictate?

PAX

"Do you realize that over 51% of the world's largest economies are centrally planned corporations?"

What does this mean?

"Certainly the belief that everyone has inalienable rights such as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is merely the fantasy of an unrealistic idealist."

Gitmo.

So, Grendel, "Do you hold any ideals which cannot be changed or discarded no matter what the circumstances dictate?"

It means 51 of the world's 100 largest economies are corporations,

Of the 100 largest economies in the world, 51 are corporations; only 49 are countries (based on a comparison of corporate sales and country GDPs).

You are confusing economic power with political power. Multinationals can't force people to buy what they sell (without government help). Government can.

Central planning corporations can go out of business if their models are wrong (GM, Ford...).

With government, the errors built into central planning are forced in the general public.

So, Grendel, "Do you hold any ideals which cannot be changed or discarded no matter what the circumstances dictate?"

Yes, primarily, I believe that that everyone has inalienable rights such as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

PAX

"You are confusing economic power with political power."

They are inseperable. That's why the field of economics used to be called "political economy."

So far I've met more atheists and agnostics who were raised as baptists than any other doctrine or denomination.

I wonder why that is...

Posted by Axiom at 2008-07-09 07:34 AM | Reply | Flag:

Beer and sex.. Once you have a beer and enjoy sex you just don't trust The Word as interpreted by Baptists.

Grendel-
re: "Yes, primarily, I believe that that everyone has inalienable rights such as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

So you cheered at the recent SC decision to uphold an inalienable and hard-fought right dating back at least to the Magna Carta?

(yes, Grendel, you did say "inalienable" and "Do you hold any ideals which cannot be changed or discarded no matter what the circumstances dictate?")

I would assume then your personal ethics are fluid and change according to the situation.

Hardly. My personal ethics are based on non-aggression towards others. I apply it universally. It's a valuable thinking tool.

So, if this world changed and it becomes practical and beneficial for you to kill an innocent person to attain your individual goals, you would not hestitate to do it.

If you are inferring abortion. I believe it is not a black and white issue. It should be a personal decision.

Do you hold any ideals which cannot be changed or discarded no matter what the circumstances dictate?

The only life I have control over is mine. And that is not always easy. Everything else is navigation.

That's why the field of economics used to be called "political economy."

There is a saying. "Money is the mother's milk of politics."

Yes, primarily, I believe that that everyone has inalienable rights such as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Well then Grendel. Can a assume you see our government as the primary violator of those rights?

So you cheered at the recent SC decision to uphold an inalienable and hard-fought right dating back at least to the Magna Carta?


I am not sure what decision you are specifically referring to.

The question that you are asking, however, seems like the "gotcha" type, though.

In other words if you find some single instance in which my opinion seems to you to contradict my idealism then you will brand me a hypocrite. Of course, such an argument is really not valid.

One of the difficulties of holding ideals is that not all ideals always dovetail with each other and work in harmony together.

For example, if I am a judge and hold mercy as an ideal then how can I hold justice as an ideal? What then? Should I abandon one for the other? Should I abandon both? And idealism together? Or is the struggle to live up to ideals, even when they conflict, part of the process of our imperfect minds and hearts trying to do what is right so that we may continually improve ourself? I think the answer is yes, and I think out of such struggle and conflict comes wisdom.

World literature is replete with texts that examine this conflict of being faithful to opposing ideals. Very few that I know come up with the conclusion to abandon holding ideals altogether.

PAX

Grendel-
Do you understand that you are full of shit, and that I'm not getting paid to read it?

Later.

One last thought in closing Grendel. No one can alter reality. No one. Ideals not grounded in reality ALWAYS fail.


Hardly. My personal ethics are based on non-aggression towards others. I apply it universally. It's a valuable thinking tool.

I assume you refer to physical aggression and not verbal. I have read a number of your posts (not directed at me) that are verbally combative and have used language that was designed to hurt. Is emotional pain less hurtful than physical pain?

I was not referring to abortion in my question or anything else. The question was direct. You answered it by stated that you believe in non aggression. I assume that cannot be changed.

Well then Grendel. Can a assume you see our government as the primary violator of those rights?

Government as primary violator of those rights? Yes, I often see that. And I often see them uphold such rights. Primary, though? To come to that conclusion would require an exhaustive comparative analysis of the violations of rights in political, economic, social, spheres by governmental, corporate and individual entities. It would also require some value judgments ranking which is worse than the other.

Ultimately, I think such analysis is pointless. I do not think the violation of rights is as quantifiable as you and others here seem to believe. This discussion of numbers murdered to determined who or what is the greater evil seems ridiculous.

Is a person who murders five innocent people less evil than a person who murders six? I don't think so. No more than I think that a regime that murders ten thousand people is less evil than one that murders a million.

PAX

Grendel-
Do you understand that you are full of shit, and that I'm not getting paid to read it?


Later.

An interesting response. It speaks volumes.

PAX

"Is a person who murders five innocent people less evil than a person who murders six? I don't think so. No more than I think that a regime that murders ten thousand people is less evil than one that murders a million.

PAX"

Posted by Grendel at 2008-07-09 10:48 PM | Reply

Would you consider dropping bombs on innocent people as murder? Does the size of the bomb matter?

"Yes, primarily, I believe that that everyone has inalienable rights such as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Posted by Ray at 2008-07-09 10:24 PM | Reply |


Inalienable. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

"It means 51 of the world's 100 largest economies are corporations" -Null

A corporation does not an economy make.....

So again what does an "51 of the worlds 100 largest economies" have to do with corporations?

A link would suffice as opposed to a one liner that means...well nothing...

Of the 100 largest economies in the world, 51 are corporations; only 49 are countries (based on a comparison of corporate sales and country GDPs).

Posted by nullifidian

Is a person who murders five innocent people less evil than a person who murders six? I don't think so. No more than I think that a regime that murders ten thousand people is less evil than one that murders a million.


PAX

Posted by Grendel


my past life which I've embraced had me murdering over a million people in ancient Atlantis...by setting off a nuke...device.

Consequently it has taken lifetimes to balance out my karma from that strange memory that finally surfaced last Christmas.

For solace in these troubling times of brutal nuke games for Israel & oil...

I chose to listen to Angels:>)

www.youtube.com


hermaphrodite,
Use your fucking noodle and tell me why you think the military has chaplains. A fucking child would know the answer to that question.
And it was answered for you by both Sully and I the last time your stupid ass asked that question.
Lastly, anyone that spells wimp the way you do deserves to have his Depends pulled up over his wrinkly face.

101 Hairworn, Use your own fucking noodle and tell me why you think the military has chaplains. "A fucking child would know the answer." This fucking child asked YOU and got the usual imbecilic response. I know that using your phony pen name and "think" in the same sentence is an oxymoron, but I asked YOU, and the simple truth is that in your many posts, you've lacked the balls to ever answer a question.

"Lastly, anyone that spells wimp the way you do deserves to have his Depends pulled up over his wrinkly face." The spelling "whimp" originated with YOU (or one of your - er -disciples). herm

Not with me old man. But I'm glad to see I'm still haunting your thoughts.

I answered you already. Sully followed my post up with almost the exact same answer. You probably read it but seeing as though you're so old you probably forgot it. Kind of like how you forget who the person that changes your bed pan is.

... the hilarity is, I went to the suicide bomber thread and... like this thread, not a single damned one of you idiots actually answered Herm's question. You just called him stupid and insulted him repeatedly.

So, I being ex-Navy, know what chaplains are for. I will give my answer... as soon as one of you calling Herm stupid does so first.

I don't want to give you easy verbiage to use. You've now twice had the request, and all you're doing is insulting and squirming. Answer him, already.

Oh and about "Floydism"... Chairborne is correct about that. It's one of the recognized "religions". I was in in the 90's, and I also recall seeing "Jedi", "Fremen" and "Wiccan" amongst the listings of false religions they let people put on their dogtags.

And to anyone who thinks they are a "Witch" or a "Druid" that wants to be offended at that.. go fuck yourself. Your "religion" didn't exist even 60 years ago. A goddamned DnD-playing 5 year old can figure out that any religion having rituals involving Isis and Diana in the same sentence is hodgepodge bullshit.

Thank you, Foxy. shipmate of mine. I served as flunky to the chaplain on a heavy cruiser in Korean waters, which sounds like easy duty until you factor in that I was also the ship's librarian, writer of home town news releases, editor of the ship's daily paper at sea and monthly magazine in port, clerk for correspondence courses, stretcher bearer at GQ, and probably a few other chores I forgot. While westbound across the Pacific, I twice worked 25-hour days.

Anyway, the chaplain was an appalling piece of crap, wearing the gold oak leaf primarily to keep swabbies from bitching. And I wondered what the hell (!) men of gawd, servants of the prince of peace, were doing aiding and abetting this unholy effort. Neither the ersatz paratrooper nor his upsuckers explained that. All they know is to call you stoopid - a stoopid whimp... herm

And midwatches on the bridge at 20 below. You block things like that out. herm

"So, a different ambassador was chosen."


In the end, she went anyway, right?


Posted by Hagbard_Celine

Yes, sometimes you have to disguise your own beliefs when you are representing someone else.

...still waiting on that answer about chaplains.

A couple of hours later and still only crickets, Foxy. These pretend war heroes have absolutely no balls when pushed into corners. herm

Grendsl
I have read a number of your posts (not directed at me) that are verbally combative and have used language that was designed to hurt. Is emotional pain less hurtful than physical pain?

It's not in me to pick on or bully people. I operate on the principal: if they can't take it, then they shouldn't dish it out. (principle of non initiation of aggression)

I've noticed that my critiques on political issues bring out the worst in people. Religionists like you and Zed are mild mannered.

You operate on crass principles at best, one about being respectful is not one.

We understand you don't believe in God, but at least you could be nice when presenting your principled opinions.

Government as primary violator of those rights? Yes, I often see that. And I often see them uphold such rights. Primary, though? To come to that conclusion would require an exhaustive comparative analysis of the violations of rights in political, economic, social, spheres by governmental, corporate and individual entities.

I've been analyzing this subject for over 40 years. Governments around the world operate on the principle that moral ends can be achieved by immoral means. That's impossible.

Religions don't teach this. If they did, it would mean their end.

...still waiting on that answer about chaplains.

Posted by soheifox at 2008-07-10 05:09 PM

they can't find any Hindus or Tibetan Monks that will go to war?

Government is the dominant protection racket.

Money. Money. Money. I've been nice to you. I certainly don't respect most of your opinions. That I can't hide. But you do that to me too.

Hindus?

Shiva?

"I am become death. Destroyer of worlds."

nuclearweaponarchive.org

They didn't think the depleted uranium would undergo fission.
They were wrong.
Everything heavier than iron is fissile.

Ray,

You are sadly mistaken, I respect your opinions, I just don't agree with all of them.

When it comes to faith though, one mans truth is another mans lie.

Government is the dominant protection racket.

As it should be, the problem now is who the government is protecting.

"As it should be, the problem now is who the government is protecting."

Posted by moneywar

"As it should be" => by definition

"who the government is protecting"

The government.

You are sadly mistaken, I respect your opinions, I just don't agree with all of them.

Whatever, Money. Beyond our disagreements, I have no issues with you personally.

Calling oneself a Christian --- or thinking oneself a Christian --- does not make one a genuine Christian. Folks like these are likely to turn away later, or 'get it' much later.

One thing: if you've experienced 2 Corinthians 5:17, then you got it, and even if you stray out of weaknesses, you will come back. Because you and only you know it from the inside out!

Comments are closed for this entry.

Drudge Retort

Home | News | Comments | User Blogs | Nooner | Back Page | RSS Feed | RSS Spec | Copyright 2009 World Readable