Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Sunday, July 06, 2008

A three-foot-tall stone tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew, which scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus, may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days. "Some Christians will find it shocking -- a challenge to the uniqueness of their theolog," said Talmudic scholar Daniel Boyarin.

Liberal Blog Advertising Network

Menu

Subscriptions

Author Info

johnny_hotsauce

MORE STORIES

Special Features

Comments

Admin's note: Participants in the discussion of this weblog entry should note the site's moderation policy.

Divine resurrection myths go back at least to Osiris in ancient Egypt.

This is only news to the Judeo-centric.

www.geocities.com

Man's yearning for renewal and restoration with God is as old as mankind.

This is only news to those who squander their time trying to bash the Christian faith.

Instead, why don't you volunteer a few hours at a church-sponsored elder care, food bank, clothes closet, after-school program?

Much to the chagrin of Lefties, most community-level Welfare programs are operated by churches, with volunteer labor. "Faith-based" is not a new concept, despite your rabid Bush hating.

Of course, helping your community and serving your neighbor requires you to get off your ass, turn off the computer and interact with people different from yourself.

Nah, stay home in front of the computer and listen to "Law & Order" reruns.

Nah, stay home in front of the computer and listen to "Law & Order" reruns.

Posted by vernon

sounds like something you've been doing lately:>)


"Never Saw Blue" by Hayley Westenra


www.youtube.com


Man's yearning for renewal and restoration with God is as old as mankind.
~Vernon


Man's yearning for answers to death, the dark, and the stars in the skies is more precise.

The ancient answer was religion, born of a desire for a soothing reassurance that something stronger was watching over and in control.

Zap -- Does this mean that some messiah-mad zealots might have manufactured history to mesh with the messiah-is-coming mania of the times in Roman occupied/Greek-leaning Palestine? Or does this mean that prophesy is true and that someone predicted within 2 lifetimes all the truth about Jesus?

History tells us that the time of Caesar's great expansion of Rome's borders and the mixing of so many cultural ideas into one empire at one time was a time of very radical thinking along many lines. A lot of new religions emerged to challenge the Roman pagan orthodoxy.


Does this mean
~TC

The short answer as illustrated by my original is simple no to all of the above.

Mans desire for a soothing reassurance that something stronger was watching over and in control can be justified by anything he chooses to do it with.

How many predictions over the years from a gods appearance, reappearance, to the end of the world. How many disaster latched on to as evidence that man has turned god aside and the disaster is retribution.

You're right Zap-the "Resurrection Myth" has been around for many thousands of years-ever since man first started worshiping Deities other than the Sun..

Jesus tried to teach people but they never listen. Christians and Moslems are killers. Bin Laden and Bush fit that stereotype. Budhists and Atheists are peaceful. Gandhi and Martin Luther King fit that stereotype.

odd timing....
this is really weird but i've just seen jesus in my cheerios.

all the best

No shit?

Love,

Horus

shocking.....


If you believe in Jesus then those pesky little facts shouldn't worry you. Have faith! Don't ask questions, just trust those. Just keep sending those checks to your church.

Of course, helping your community and serving your neighbor requires you to get off your ass, turn off the computer and interact with people different from yourself.
Posted by vernon at 2008-07-06 07:33 AM

another brilliant self-retorting retort from our own resident bathrobe blogger!

Of course, helping your community and serving your neighbor requires you to get off your ass, turn off the computer and interact with people different from yourself.

Practice what you preach!

There are many people different from you.

Perhaps you should interact with them? The "Christian" Faith is not the Be All... End All of Religions...

have you even studied any other religions?

Ever just hung out with a Hindu? I doubt it.

www.comedycentral.com

Christians and Moslems are killers.

Historically, this has proven to be true. The reason for this is that these religions are dualistic. They see man as a flawed entity separate from God and in need of his grace for completion. They also see an evil entity, Satan, who is separate from man and who desires his downfall. What follows is a spiritual war for the soul of man between the forces of good and evil. This spiritual war manifests itself outwardly as the justification of the murder of others by declaring them to be evil as well.

Buddhism is non-dualistic. Man is seen as a natural and perfect being who suffers due to his failure to perceive the true nature of reality. Suffering is caused by attachment and attachment by desire. Desire is caused by ignorance of the truth that we are already complete.

This is only news to those who squander their time trying to bash the Christian faith.

Instead, why don't you volunteer a few hours at a church-sponsored elder care, food bank, clothes closet, after-school program?

Much to the chagrin of Lefties, most community-level Welfare programs are operated by churches, with volunteer labor. "Faith-based" is not a new concept, despite your rabid Bush hating.

Of course, helping your community and serving your neighbor requires you to get off your ass, turn off the computer and interact with people different from yourself.

See, that's not the problem if that's all religion was. But it is the entitlement for the holier-than-thou to be holier-than-thou. To tell people how to live their lives because their God wouldn't allow it. Unfortunately their "God" is just the latest manifestation of Sun worshiping pagans.

Jesus tried to teach people but they never listen.

Jesus was a control freak who threatened hell and damnation to those who would not follow him. Jews have no such concept. No wonder they didn't listen.

duh everything in the Bible predates Jesus. It also predates the Bible!

They took all the concepts and story's from the ancient Greeks and philosophers.

"Jesus was a control freak who threatened hell and damnation to those who would not follow him. Jews have no such concept. No wonder they didn't listen."

He was probably bad carpenter also.

more evidence of the pagan nature of christianity.

He was probably bad carpenter also.

Posted by pragmatous

That's funny... there is a story in the gnostic gospels about how Joseph was actually a bad carpenter. One time Joseph got a contract to make a chair for a local person of importance, only it was too small when it was finished. Jesus came up and started pulling at the chair with Joseph until it finally reached the dimensions contracted for.

The Old Testament forecasts the Resurrection, as well as Christ. Y'all need more Sunday school.

"More evidecne of the pagan nature of Christianity...."

Just silly.

"No wonder they wouldn't listen to Him..."

Except for those that did, of course.

All religions are bullshit. None are exempt.
They ALL have their fallacies, and are used to control peoples minds through fear of the "unknown," and guilt.

Here are a few quotes to ponder:

"It's far better to grasp the universe as it really is, than to persist in delusion however satisfying and reassuring."
-Carl Sagan

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."
-Napoleon Bonaparte

"All national institutions of churches whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind and monopolize power and profit."
-Thomas Paine

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-Lucius Annaus Seneca

Think without fear.

What are the gods of this age? I think some future archeaologist might conclude methamphetamines and alcohol.

I could adduce a few more. Money, for example. The point being made is this is a pantheistic society, one I've decided to opt out of.

Fear sells.

What is Zed afraid of?

"Think without fear...."

Again, just silly. I know of no one who worships out of fear. Perhaps these people exist. Look for them diligently. God knows, you need some concrete support for your ideas.

one I've decided to opt out of.

Posted by Zed

You've given away all your money to the poor and are currently living homeless on the streets having faith that good will feed you as he does the birds in the trees?

Didn't think so.

"What is Zed afarid of...."

I'll show mine if you show yours, Ray.

"Didn't think so....."

What makes you think I don't give my money away, Hagbard? This is the first time I've thought you arrogant.

I don't want to see yours, Zed.

Then don't claim you have none, Ray.

What makes you think I don't give my money away, Hagbard? This is the first time I've thought you arrogant.

Posted by Zed

Sorry, Zed... Jesus didn't say give away some of your money.

I guess I'm just sayintg that you haven't opted out of anything... to say so is wholly disingenuous. your participation here is evidence of that.

Unless you're living unabomber style out in the woods, you are still "all in"

"Jesus didn't say give away some of your money...."

Jesus wants me to take care of people. That's why I work and earn money to start with. Many depend on me. Many. I don't help them by living on a street.

This is simple, simple stuff. What life is made of, in fact. Interesting you'd want to make something of it.

But I'll tell you what, Hagbard. If you want to argue it would be better as a Christian not to participate on this damned blog, you might have a point.

Many depend on me. Many.
Posted by Zed

Wow, talk about a messiah complex.

Just many, Hagbard. Not the world. Strain a bit harder. You'll either succeed in being nastier or just taking a dump.


"Divine resurrection myths go back at least to Osiris in ancient Egypt.

This is only news to the Judeo-centric."

Really it's only news to ignoramus americans who think the end of the world instead of age is comming. The right wing death cult needs to kill itself off and leave the rest of us alone already.
Go see jesus already. He's waiting...

God is to Satan as Christians are to accurately verifying timelines and events...


Easy enough.


gbgm-umc.org

Next.

Then don't claim you have none, Ray.

Posted by Zed

What??? Now why would a heterosexual male like me claim I have none?

don't get me started, God.

Adam and Eve with dinosaurs or no dinosaurs...

Earth still 6,000 years old

Noah two of EVERY species, and on and on and on...

If there is intelligent life elsewhere and they, God forbid, have a God and religious system, whose God is right? the civilization with the bigger ray gun?

Aesop would be proud.

Just another thread to give the atheists on here an excuse to continue their circle jerk against God and religion.

There is nothing new under the sun.

Precisely! Watson!

God is to Satan as Christians are to accurately verifying timelines and events...


Confucius say, "Man who ignore link and regurgitate traditional nonsense doomed to live in said vomit."

God out for now.


www.drgenescott.org

are a billion Chinese + Muslims + Voodoo Priests + Aboriginies + Jews + Hindus + Other going to hell for being from the wrong religious sect, God, we are going to need a BIGGER OVEN!!!

happy Sunday!

Zed thinking someone is arrogant is simply hilarious.


What's this "we" shit, kemosabe?

God really out now.


"More evidecne of the pagan nature of Christianity...."


Just silly.

Posted by Zed at


just the truth,

communion-eating jesus (the lamb of god to get closer to god)

pagan communion-actually eating a lamb to get closer to god

That's why I work and earn money to start with. Many depend on me. Many. I don't help them by living on a street.



wouldnt it be easier to just proved em all with fishes and loaves?

but jesus wont share that knowledge will he?

yes or no answer only.

Are fags an abomination? in the bible, it says that they are. man lying with man as he would a woman... Sodom and Gomorrah....

Yes. They are an abomination. Then Christians need to shout this from the highest roof tops so that all the world knows that they will not cave in to modern day idealism.

No. If Christians are willing to go "soft" and "bend a little" on this issue, then, the question becomes, what other principles are they able to go "soft" on and "bend a little"???

which is it?

signed,

a confused Darwinist.

www.themystica.com

Modern Witchcraft and neo-Paganism continue the Dionysiac and Orphic mysteries by maintaining the belief in a Nature or agricultural religion. This is seen in the worship of the Slain God, where it is believed the god experiences resurrection. In ancient times the worshippers partook of the body and blood of this god in a sacrificial feast. By these means the people became one with the god. Also, blood and flesh of the sacrifice were given to members to be planted to insure the abundance of their crops; this signified the belief in the resurrection power of the god. Today this has been replaced with what is known as the "eating the deity" or consuming the Harvest Lord in the ritual cakes and wine (flesh and blood) during rituals.

Vernon,

"Much to the chagrin of Lefties, most community-level Welfare programs are operated by churches, with volunteer labor. "Faith-based" is not a new concept, despite your rabid Bush hating."

Are you under the impression all Christians are republican or that all democrats are atheist?

I would suspect you and I agree on many things. We likely agree on the divinity of Jesus Christ. We likely agree this stone could be seen as prophesy.

However, what does "Bush hating" have to do with faith or programs? Sounds like a straw man to me.

I rarely quote Ann Colter, but I will today. About President Bush she said, "We're all just waiting for this nincompoop to be gone."

This joining is the essence of communion; it is the ultimate hope of joining with the transcendent god. The purposes of this hope are for the betterment of the person and the continuation of spiritual existence after death.


according to this article the basic premise of resurrection goes back to greek mythology.

"a confused Darwinist."
the only people using this term are anti-evolution

percentage of homosexual creatures of almost all mammals is about the same. is that an evil god that did this? to shout from the roof tops "god, stop making queers" would be more appropiate than your homophobic shouts.

Why do you lemmings need a God to feel complete? I get that same feeling from my 745i and I give a rats ass that I am worm dirt when I am dead.

No God. Worm Dirt. we are all just worm dirt!

No need for an afterlife. Live the one you have now. Pursue wealth and happiness without bulloney.

SOMEBODY PASS ME THE CHEESE WHIZ!

i think they should bother themselves with God stop making rapists and murderers and child abusers, etc

PASS ME THE CHEESE WHIZ!

Allegedly drives a Beemer and eats cheese whiz.

I think I'll stick with an old truck and Brie.

I think I'll stick with an old truck and Brie.

-- Posted by OZARKAGGIE


This one is for you -- something to go with the Brie:

"Red, Red Wine" - UB40

-a confused Darwinist.

Some of My best friends are fags.

But don't get your hopes up.

"Red, Red Wine"

Brie is usually served with a white wine like Pinot Gris or - my favorite - Asti Spumante!

In my swashbuckling bachelor days I would treat my lovelies to a breakfast of Eggs Benedict, a slice of Brie, and Asti.

Of course the slackers got coffee and toast.

RIDDLE ME THIS, BATMAN:

*not my opinion(s). just demonstrating one of many catch 22's. have your cake and eat it too, chumly.

What About Sodom and Gomorrah?
In Genesis 19 God destroys Sodom and Gomorrah due to the extensive amount of sin and debauchery going on in the city. Some add homosexuality in with the sins being committed. Others say that it was not just blanket homosexuality being condemned but homosexual rape, meaning it is different from homosexual behavior in loving relationships.

Cultic Homosexual Behavior?
Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 are also debated among denominations and scholars.

Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

While many Christian denominations and scholars believe these scriptures clearly condone homosexuality, others believe that the Greek terms used were meant to describe the homosexual behavior present at Pagan temples.

Prostitution or Homosexuality?
Romans 1 discusses how the people gave into their lust. Yet the meaning of the acts described are debated. Some see the passages as describing prostitution while others see it as a clear condemnation on homosexual behavior.

Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

Why would a French cheese be served with a crappy Italian sparkling wine?

Why would a French cheese be served with a crappy Italian sparkling wine?

Posted by Jomama at 2008-07-06 04:01 PM

Well, you gotta remember that Ozarkhillbilly's definition of "lovlies" probably means they had most of their teeth.

His sisters no doubt drank a lot of coffee and ate a lot of toast.


Robin was homophobic?


The contradictions between man's understanding of God, and God, are as numerous as man's traditions.

"By your traditions you make void the word of God". - Pablito

There is no Law, there are no rules..... only, "all things in moderation" and, "work out your own salvation". Also Paul.

There is no good man, only God working through some men of faith. And there is no faith with the certainty you seek.

There is no god but clapton and Derek was his Domino

just takes Blind Faith to get the cream from the yardbird

and i get by with help from, Delaney bonnie and my friends as long as they break my blues

I've been out of the loop for a while but remembering my Catholic schooling, I can't remember one instance of anyone ever telling me that Christians invented the idea of resurrection. I don't see that could possibly be important anyway.

What are the gods of this age? I think some future archeaologist might conclude methamphetamines and alcohol.
zed

Yes sir! I raise my Beam and Coke to thy. Today is the first Sunday in 75 years that a guy can by booze in Colorado. Not just 3/2 beer but full blown beer, booze and wine. Thanks be to which ever diety made this day possible!

His sisters no doubt drank a lot of coffee and ate a lot of toast.

no, i bet she got some brie and a lot of asti. then got got a little taste of the night before again.

I just don't give a rat's fat ass about what that silly little book, the Bible says. And I certainly don't give a shit about the Religious man's fuckin' fantasy of world domination or destruction (I forget which one it is).

You know why? Cause I am an American. What you believe is your own business. Just don't shove it down my throat.

Or as we so proudly once said:

DON'T TREAD ON ME.

"percentage of homosexual creatures of almost all mammals is about the same. is that an evil god that did this? to shout from the roof tops "god, stop making queers" would be more appropiate than your homophobic shouts."

The common rightwing jesusfreak dumb#ss response to this is: the liberals want to make everyone gay! At least that is the response i get. As if there are liberals in the bushes teaching the squirrels to be homosexual....

"Thanks be to whatever diety made this day possible...."

Just drink the deity, er, beer and be happy. Don't forget the crank, for the sake of a complete experience.

"I don't give a fat rat's ass about that silly book (Bible)...."

Actually, I think you talk about it more than I do. Not unusual for people to define their identity largely in relation to what they're rebelling against.

Smarmy, thy name is Zed.

I don't think we've met, Snark. Who are you really?

Jesus is my mechanic.

what was Jesus's first miracle?

turning water into wine so the party could continue

jesus was a party animal and probably would enjoy a good meth high

God knows, you need some concrete support for your ideas.
Posted by Zed

Hmmmm.
I suppose the bible is the "concrete" support for your ideas?
Smiles.


"jesus was a party animal and probably would enjoy a good meth high"

no no no, truthhurts.... he was on the real dope...
god... can you handle the high?
a vid with the stranger from the manger!!!
the poster boy for easter!!

youtube.com

all the best

Quotes on religion by non-believers:
www.youtube.com

I have said this here before, I believe in fairies, I believe in ghosts, I believe in UFOs, I believe in the loch ness monster, I believe in big foot I do not however believe for a second in a merciful god. On a more serious note, I ACTUALLY believe in the tangible, which is why my god (if I have one) is mother nature (and no I don't mean a woman wearing a white nightie sat on a throne in the sky somewhere), I SEE her every day, and feel her presence every day (when my caterpillars are turning into chrysalids for instance as I have posted elsewhere). For whatever reason (I suspect a thinning of the herd) Mother Nature created Hurricane Katrina, if this here God (christian, muslim whatever) is so damn powerful why didn't he just wave his bony finger and make it begone? Fact is MY GOD (such as she is) rules this planet, YOUR GOD (whichever one he is) sort of watches from the sidelines and is (as Constantine said) more akin to a kid with an antfarm and he is completely and utterly powerless against her (simple fact). Sorry if it offends anyone but I will put my faith in a power I can see every day, as opposed to an imaginary power that I am told exists but which we never ever see used for good but only ever see as an excuse for human beings to kill each other.

The atonement story was told far before that. It was written long before man showed up on the earth...They just proved prophecy and communication of God with man. Good for them.

God, schmod. 1 more to go before we're free.

Man originally worshipped the dying and reviving sun.

Then Man worshipped the dying and reviving seasons of the earth.

Finally the story gets upgraded to wordhip a dying and reviving man.

With a Virgin mum no less.

Nice touch there.

Christianity is a pastiche, a dirty snowball of a religion that has picked up memes and imagery from various other religions as it has rolled on down the hill of time.

Be Well.

Ray said:
"I know of no one who worships out of fear. Perhaps these people exist. Look for them diligently. God knows, you need some concrete support for your ideas."

I could point to the Pentacostals directly, but there are undoubtedly hundreds of non affiliated churches that preach the terror of an angry and jealous Old Testament God who punishes even minor unrepented offenses with the agony of eternal fire. Even most mainstream Christian denominations have or had a certain amount of hellfire in their preaching, though their focus might tend to be more on redemption from it rather than a fixation on it. Since many of these churches preach that only the church itself (through the ministers and /or community at large) hold the key to salvation, I would guess that a lot of people out there really do worship out of fear and not a more noble emotion.

Ray didn't say it, I did. And I'll stand by the statement.

"An angry and jealous Old Testament God who punishes even minor unrepented offenses...."

One of the reasons I got religion was because I realized that's how people outside the church were. Yes, the non-believers.

They offer that attitude not because they fear God, but out of their own animal selves, which are forever active.

The major difference being, they never care if you "repent" or not. There is always punishment.

Now, I have no doubt that there are persons that have difficulties losing their old ways after baptism, and perhaps some that never do. I leave that to God to sort out.

But the concept of the "lost" is a concrete one. The adolescents I know refer to the unbeliever lifestyle they experience as "drama", which they come to loathe. Whether they stick by it or not.

Those kids that get baptised understand what they try to leave behind is all practice for a dull and vicious, but of course non-church-going and completely "frre", life-style.

You're quite welcome to it. I don't know anyone on this side crying salty tears because they're not there with you.

But I'll tell you what, Hagbard. If you want to argue it would be better as a Christian not to participate on this damned blog, you might have a point.

Posted by Zed

I would never argue that... but if you intend to debate using your christian identity and values as supporting evidence, you better be ready to have them challenged. If you're going to use those credentials as your winning point, then you absolutely better be ready for it.

"Be ready to be challenged...."

Challenges don't bother me much. The darkness in which they are sometimes offered I admit does sometimes.

I mentioned teen-agers getting baptised just above. The fact is we don't get many.

Young people tend to stay out of churches until they've got what they consider their share of drinking and sexual adventure (and heartache) under their belts---Before we see any of them.

Oh, yes---They're all, without exception, atheists and agnostics and they adduce many of the same arguments for that as many of the people here do.

Their philosophies are pre-determined conclusions based upon what it was they already determined they wanted to do.

Until they've burned themselves out, any and all arguments (or examples) to the contrary as met with that "you must be crazy" smile.

"They're without exception, atheists and agnostics...."

At least those I've managed to pin down for a five minute conversation, which ain't easy. They've got better things to do.

The darkness in which they are sometimes offered I admit does sometimes.
Posted by Zed

I'd say the darkness is in your own mind, Zed.

Strange that we both came back to this thread at the same time.

God's fault/doing.

Non Serviam,

HC


Yeah, sure, go ahead ..... blame God.


Give a person free will, and look what they do with it! Personally, I'm going for an MLT.... you know, a mutton, lettuce and tomato sandwich.

"Young people tend to stay out of churches until they've got what they consider their share of drinking and sexual adventure (and heartache) under their belts---Before we see any of them."

Posted by Zed

Do you consider their "conversion" legitimate?

"The problem with the youth today is, because of their inexperience with the world, they cannot attempt to grasp the ideals, set forth by myself and those who preceded me.

But, as history has shown, they will come around, and embrace our philosophies and become model citizens in their own right, God bless This great nation."

Les Claypool - The Return of Sathington Willoughby

"I'd say the darkness is in your own mind...."

I'd say it's much to early to be smoking crack.

God judges the validity of conversions, Hagbard. What I know is that it's much harder to deal with kids (or people) who embrace that "nothing matters" ideal.

There are a lot of these about. Intelligent atheists, who often surround themselves with other intelligent atheists, tend to forget what barbarians their kin can be.

Intelligent atheists, who often surround themselves with other intelligent atheists, tend to forget what barbarians their kin can be.

Posted by Zed

Right back at ya, Zed

I'd say it's much to early to be smoking crack.

Posted by Zed

I don't think any time of the day is a good time to smoke crack. But I don't travel in the same circles as you.

"Intelligent atheists, who often surround themselves with other intelligent atheists, tend to forget what barbarians their kin can be."

That's nonsense. One only has to read the paper. Or turn on the TV. Or leave one's home.

But the concept of the "lost" is a concrete one.

Posted by Zed at 2008-07-07 09:39 AM

All those that wander are not lost.

If we long to believe that the stars rise and set for us, that we are the reason there is a Universe, does science do us a disservice in deflating our conceits?....For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.

Carl Sagan

enjoi

Just a ditto to the first comment:
Divine resurrection myths go back at least to Osiris in ancient Egypt.

This is only news to the Judeo-centric.

OK, Let's cover this one more time.

JESUS NEVER EXISTED.

Of all the historians in the area at the time he was supposed to be doing this and that, not one historian made a written record of it. These are historians that recorded river levels and crop returns and the governors case of diarrhea, but not one mention of someone going around preforming miracles, not even when he was sentenced and crucified. You would think that would have made the news.

And one of those historians was named Lucanus. He was a physician and a historian. You may know him by his psuedonem, St.Luke, who wrote one of the 4 new testament gospels.

Not one word was written at the current time.

"Of all the historians in the area at the time he was supposed to be doing this and that, not one historian made a written record of it."

Not entirely accurate...


Josephus was a Jewish historian who lived circa 37-100 AD. His Hebrew name was Joseph ben Mattathias, and he received an excellent education in Jerusalem. After leading a failed revolt of the Jewish forces against Rome, Josephus was captured and became a Roman citizen. He served as pensioner of several Flavian emperors and is most widely known by the name he then acquired, Flavius Josephus.

Around 93 AD., Josephus published Jewish Antiquities, a history of the Jews in twenty books. Though not a prominent subject of his writing, John the Baptist, Jesus of Nazareth, and Jesus' brother James are all mentioned in Jewish Antiquities. This represents the earliest historical record of Jesus from someone who was a professional historian.

"This represents the earliest historical record of Jesus from someone who was a professional historian."

Posted by SanAntonioRogue

Josephus was born in 37CE.

His works can be found here:
books.google.com

"Josephus's two most important works are The Jewish War (c. 75) and Antiquities of the Jews (c. 94).[3] Jewish War recounts the Jewish revolt against Rome (66-70). Antiquities of the Jews recounts the history of the world from a Jewish perspective. These works provide valuable insight into the background of 1st-century Judaism and early Christianity.[3]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Josephus

What a schnozz!

upload.wikimedia.org

SAR -- Good summary of Josephus. One would think, however, that a messianic person like Jesus should have gotten more press during his missionary period than he got. And that he merited only a few lines in a book written 65 years after his life, seems very meager, too.

I don't want to take sides here, just looking for data that addresses the observation that for such an important person, JC did not get much publicity. And in contrast, Muhammad really has his entire life history covered from start to end, including his clothes, books and grave (presumably containing his body) at the Holy Mosque in Medina. (This does not mean that Muhammad was "holy" or "blessed"; but it does give tangible support to the assertion that Muhammad actually was a leader who lived at the time in history when his followers claim he lived.)

Maybe someday someone will uncover more credible relics than "mystery shrouds" and "splinters from crucifixes" and "holy grails", but on the historiocity of Jesus, there are quite a few gaps that could use some filling.

It turns out that most scholars consider the Flavius work to be a forgery:

To repeat, this passage was so completely dissected by scholars of high repute and standing--the majority of them pious Christians--that it was for decades understood by subsequent scholars as having been proved in toto a forgery, such that these succeeding scholars did not even mention it, unless to acknowledge it as false. (In addition to being repetitious, numerous quotes will be presented here, because a strong show of rational consensus is desperately needed when it comes to matters of blind, unscientific and irrational faith.) The scholars who so conclusively proved the TF a forgery made their mark at the end of the 18th century and into the 20th, when a sudden reversal was implemented, with popular opinion hemming and hawing its way back first to the "partial interpolation theory" and in recent times, among the third-rate apologists, to the notion that the whole TF is "genuine." As Earl Doherty says, in "Josephus Unbound":

"Now, it is a curious fact that older generations of scholars had no trouble dismissing this entire passage as a Christian construction. Charles Guignebert, for example, in his Jesus (1956, p.17), calls it 'a pure Christian forgery.' Before him, Lardner, Harnack and Schurer, along with others, declared it entirely spurious. Today, most serious scholars have decided the passage is a mix: original parts rubbing shoulders with later Christian additions."

The earlier scholarship that proved the entire TF to be fraudulent was determined by intense scrutiny by some of the most erudite, and mainly Christian, writers of the time, in a number of countries, their works written in a variety of languages, but particularly German, French and English. Their general conclusions, as elucidated by Christian authority Dr. Lardner, and related here by the author of Christian Mythology Unveiled (c. 1842), include the following reasons for doubting the authenticity of the TF as a whole:

"Mattathias, the father of Josephus, must have been a witness to the miracles which are said to have been performed by Jesus, and Josephus was born within two years after the crucifixion, yet in all the works he says nothing whatever about the life or death of Jesus Christ; as for the interpolated passage it is now universally acknowledged to be a forgery. The arguments of the 'Christian Ajax,' even Lardner himself, against it are these: 'It was never quoted by any of our Christian ancestors before Eusebius. It disturbs the narrative. The language is quite Christian. It is not quoted by Chrysostom, though he often refers to Josephus, and could not have omitted quoting it had it been then in the text. It is not quoted by Photius [9th century], though he has three articles concerning Josephus; and this author expressly states that this historian has not taken the least notice of Christ. Neither Justin Martyr, in his dialogue with Trypho the Jew; nor Clemens Alexandrinus, who made so many extracts from ancient authors; nor Origen against Celsus, have ever mentioned this testimony. But, on the contrary, in chap. 25th of the first book of that work, Origen openly affirms that Josephus, who had mentioned John the Baptist, did not acknowledge Christ. That this passage is a false fabrication is admitted by Ittigius, Blondel, Le Clerc, Vandale, Bishop Warburton, and Tanaquil Faber.'" (CMU, 47)

Hence, by the 1840's, when the anonymous author of Christian Mythology Unveiled wrote, the Testimonium Flavanium was already "universally acknowledged to be a forgery."

"It turns out that most scholars consider the Flavius work to be a forgery:"

Actually, also not entirely accurate. Many scholars, including those of the Jesus Institute believe that there was some later interpolation added to the passage about Jesus that did have a distinctly Christian leaning. However, they and others believe the original reference to Jesus to be accurate. For example, here is their finding on what was original and what was later interpolation re: Jesus...

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, (if it be lawful to call him a man,) for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. (He was the Christ;) and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, (for he appeared to them alive again the third day,) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day."

Note: Interpolations, possibly added by others, are indicated in parenthesis.

T&C -

I agree with what you're saying about documentation, although Muhammed did come along several hundred years later and communication was somewhat better than in 30 C.E.

I believe there are definitely gaps in the complete story of Jesus, historically. My point is mainly that there does seem to be evidence that the person existed. The rest of the narrative - virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, etc. and definitely matters of faith over historical record.

Jesus tried to teach people but they never listen. Christians and Moslems are killers. Bin Laden and Bush fit that stereotype. Budhists and Atheists are peaceful. Gandhi and Martin Luther King fit that stereotype.

Posted by nutcase at 2008-07-06 11:47 AM | Reply

Strange post. Among the other odd generalities, you think a Hindu and a Christian exemplify good Buddhism and Atheism.

Jesus never existed. Christianity existed, but no one knows what it stood for that i've heard. The romans put together a comic book based on a lot of conquered territorial myth, and right wing imbeciles still believe this sh#t as if it is literal.

SUPERMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!

BAAAAAATMAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!

SPIDER MAAAAAN SPIIIDER MAAAAAN!!!!

2000 years from now these morons offspring will insist that the above 3 character were real too...

the greeks based their myths on the stories of the tribes before them

the jews based their stories on the greeks and other tribes before them

the christians based their stories on the greeks and the jews and other tribes

why are some so arrogant to think that the bible is some kind of divine word?

answers it may have, but you hold the interpretation

but why did 2000 years ago things get so SURE

it was only about 60 to 100 lifespans ago, a drop in the bucket of time.

Even when new evidences are discovered, it still comes down to choosing what you want to believe and then maybe even try to figure out *why* you want to believe it.

"When new evidences are discovered...."

Lost in this thread is that these "evidences" are only "new" to someone who never read the Bible. Even the New Testament part.

Maybe people will believe in an actual Spiderman in 2000 years. If so, I at least hope they take the time to open a comic book.

The problem with taking God and trying to condense that thought and putting it into a "bible" is that you create a God of the Gaps.

God of the Gaps

"Why are some so arrogant to believe the Bible is divine word...."

If it was just because there was a book, I'm pretty sure few would believe.

You've been told something about the rest of why people believe, having to do with happens in the here and now.

That's what you're really arguing against, not the Bible. You're at war with experience.

Why not knock? The promise is a door will be opened. Ought to appeal to youn as a testable proposition.

why cant people give simple answers?

it has already failed as a testible proposition. most people dont understand the basic premise and precepts of what they call their faith.


as for me I dont believe man is capable of understanding why.

and if there is a god, he is a cruel cruel god.

I don't believe in the giant boogeyman in the sky because the onus is on the one making the claim.

No virgin birth
No zeus
No superman
No santa claus
No stork
No moon made out of cheese

Make the motherf#cker appear, or go play with your legos somewhere else please...

Why not knock? The promise is a door will be opened. Ought to appeal to youn as a testable proposition.

Posted by Zed

Zed is sounding more and more like a Jehovah's Witness. That door slamming in his face.

Asshole libs love to knock Christianity but fail to recognize how crazy and hypocritical their own religion of cultural relativism, socialism, non-judgementalism, pacifisM, global warming, welfare statism, isolationism really is.

Just one lib idea, cultural relativism, the idea that headhunter societies, cannibals, and Muslim societies that believe in honor killing are equivalent to Western Civilization because they are all doing their own thing and we shouldn't judge them is a crzy lib idea that makes the virgin birth much more plausable and sane. To say that liberalism is a mental disorder is a complete understatement.

"Just one lib idea, cultural relativism, the idea that headhunter societies, cannibals, and Muslim societies that believe in honor killing are equivalent to Western Civilization because they are all doing their own thing and we shouldn't judge them is a crzy lib idea that makes the virgin birth much more plausable and sane. To say that liberalism is a mental disorder is a complete understatement."

No, it is tribalism that is a mental disorder. An idea that has been trumped by the simple fact humans can now make the planet uninhabitible. Behaving as we once did, fighting over land, water, etc, is not feasible anymore(think rats in a cage), and if allowed to continue will ultimately lead to exactly the forementioned result. i.e. the warrior icon died at Hiroshima as McArthur understood.

Again the right fails miserably to diagnose the problem due to a lack of historical cognosence.

"No, it is tribalism that is a mental disorder"

...

CalifChris, Part one
Generally I admire your postings but your shot on this subject lowered my opinion of you a good deal. I'd expect this of Vernon but not you.
When I disagree with your religious beliefs your label me a circle jerker?
Not very Christian of you.
My not buying Christian tales any more than my ancestral tales of Woden doesn't make me a circle jerker.
In fact, I practice more Christian values that 99.999% of Christians in the World. Not because I want to get to heaven, just because its the right thing to do.

Doesn't it strike you as odd Christians celebrate more of MY ancestral holidays than virtually any other religion?

Eostre the Goddess of fertility is celebrated on what is now Easter, Christ's supposed resurrection.
All-Saints Day is Halloween.
Candlemas, worship of Irish Goddess Brigit is now ST Brigit! The Catholic's knew they couldn't stop the Irish so they convinced them she was actually a Saint sent by God to guide them!
The Gegorian calendar (Pope Gregory) has most of its Days/Months named after Pagans. Why?

Tuesday - named after the Norse God Tyr.
Wednesday - named after Odin (or Woden) my ancestor's chief God.
Thursday - named after his son, Thor.
Friday - Named after the Goddess of Love and Beauty, Freya.
Saturday is named for Roman God of agriculture Saturn.
Sunday - named for the Sun, Romans called it Sun-day for worshipping the Sun God Helios.
Monday - named after the Moon Goddess
So four of the seven days of the week are homage to Norse Pagan Gods and three to Roman Gods

By the way, every time you say AMEN during or after a prayer, you're paying homage to an EGYPTIAN GOD, Amen.

As to the months,
January - the God Janus
February - the Roman celebration Februa, of purification.
March - the God of war, Mars
April - the Roman Aprilis, time of fertility
May - named for Maia, the Roman female deity of growth
June - the female mighty one of the marriage, wife of Roman God Jupiter
July - Roman emperor Julius Caesar
August - Octavius Augustus Caesar, emperor of Rome; originally from augure, "to increase."
September - the Roman number seven
October - the Latin root octo, meaning "eight"
November - derived from Latin novem, meaning "ninth."
December - derived from the Latin decem, meaning "ten."

So out of 7 days and 12 months established by POPE Gregory, 11 are named after Gods and Goddesses, 2 after Roman Pagan festivals, 2 after Roman Caesars and 4 after numbers.

CalifChris, Part two
Then the birth of Christ on a PAGAN holiday instead of when he was actually born.
Christmas is a Norse/Germanic celebration, but Christ was probably born between April and Sept (Luke 2:8) of 5 BCE. Since weather in late Dec in Jerusalem has nights in the 30's-low 40's plus possibly snow, there would be no sheep in the meadows. Plus, the census decreed by Rome wouldn't be held in Winter but in Sept, after the harvest but before the cold/rainy/snowy weather began. His birth date of 5 BCE is based on him being born during the reign of Herod the Great, Herod died in the Spring of 4 BCE, so Jesus was born before that time and during the census it likely be Sept of 5 BCE.

Best guess of his birth date is Sept 29, 5 BCE
For the first 300 years of Christianity, Christ's birth wasn't celebrated. Then the church debated dates to choose, with Mar 28, Apr 2 and Nov 18 being most popular. Eastern churches preferred Jan 6 because that was the birth date of Dionysus and Egyptian God Osirus. In 354 Pope Liberius chose Dec 25 and Pope Sixtus III celebrated it. It was chosen because it was the day of the Pagan celebration of the birth of "The Invincible Sun Mithras, the conqueror of Darkness", a Persian God.
Of course, the fact that it coincides with the Pagan Yule festivals didn't hurt. This 12 day festival kicked off by the Winter solstice on Dec 21 was perfect to interject a fictitious "birthday" into in order to win over Pagan converts to the Christian religion. The Pagan accompaniments of Holly, Mistletoe, the Yule log, Christmas fir tree, hanging of boughs and eating ham which is a carry over from the traditional slaughter of the Yule Boar in honor of the Norse God Freyr.

Then there are the Gospels themselves. Supposedly written by his disciples, NOT ONE of them existed until at least 100 years AFTER Christ was supposed to have been crucified.
Each of the four describe a different person. Mark's, the oldest of the gospels doesn't mention many of the foundations of the Christian church. No Virgin Birth, no Sermon on the Mount, not even The Lord's Prayer!
Mark describes a man, not a demigod or a god.

Now comes Matthew and Luke who describe a demigod.
They give Joseph's ancestry all the way back to David. But look here, Matthew says there were 41 generations between David and Joseph yet Luke lisys 56 generations between them! Where did those other 15 generations sneak into Christ's family tree?
Not only that, but of all of those generations Matthew and Luke only agreed on TWO names!
But the Bible is the word of God, correct in every word, punctuation and detail.
Finally comes John and the transformation from man to God is completed!
By the way, not to raise too many questions but Jesus is described as a carpenter and his disciples as fishermen As fishermen in Palestine in the first century, their language would be Aramaic. Yet the Gospels were ALL written in GREEK! Not translated from another language into GREEK but originally written in GREEK. How would Jewish fishermen who only knew Aramaic be able to write in fluent GREEK 100 years after the crucifixion by men that would have been between 130-150 years old when the Gospels were first written?
By the way, has anyone ever read the Gospels according to Judas Iscariot? He was supposed to have written his account of his time with Jesus but nobody has seen them in over 1,500 years now. Did the church destroy them? Do they have them entombed someplace in the Vatican?

Just wondering....

Last word. I'm not attacking religion. I'm pointing out items that don't make sense.
I can produce a bigger list of ?'s about other religions without much effort.
I'm just pointing out that questioning absolutes isn't wrong. If any religion were perfect, why do so many people die over religion?

Comments are closed for this entry.

Drudge Retort

Home | News | Comments | User Blogs | Nooner | Back Page | RSS Feed | RSS Spec | Copyright 2009 World Readable