Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Monday, June 30, 2008

Sen. John McCain, came under sharp attack Sunday from a man considered a possible Democratic vice presidential candidate. The retired general Wesley Clark said McCain had not "held executive responsibility" and had not commanded troops in wartime. "I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president," Clark told an interviewer.

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Go, Wes!

"Glad to see SOMEBODY is willing to hit McCain with this."

NObody is hitting McC these days. A couple of hard questions - not the creampuffs being tossed these days - and the aging Arizonan "war hero" would implode like the WTC towers.

The current issue of The Nation chronicles this. The Crooked Talk Express boys revel in bed with this guy, willing to give him a free pass straight into November. herm

" couple of hard questions - not the creampuffs being tossed these days - and the aging Arizonan "war hero" would implode like the WTC towers."


No joke man.

If anything he'd literally just go off halfcocked and that would be that. It must really chew at this guy how he lost out to Bush in '00.

His time came and went.

I think forcing McCain to face up to the hard economic times and the REAL causes for them would serve to destroy his candidacy better than personal attacks about his military record. I notice though that few if any interviewers ask him about the effects of making the Bush tax cuts permanent, or of the economic effects of staying in Iraq for a prolonged amount of time. The corporate media doesn't want McCain to have to face real questions about the real issues and so they manufacture controversy like this one. Wes Clarke needs to shut up about McCain's military career.

Wes Clarke needs to shut up about McCain's military career.

Posted by danni

I think Obama and his camp basically told him to do just that Danni...

www.breitbart.com

"For those like John McCain who have endured physical torment in service to our countryno further proof of such sacrifice is necessary," Obama said. "And let me also add that no one should ever devalue that service, especially for the sake of a political campaign, and that goes for supporters on both sides."

And...

Separately, in a statement, Obama spokesman Bill Burton said, "As he's said many times before, Senator Obama honors and respects Senator McCain's service, and of course he rejects yesterday's statement by General Clark."

I'd say that about takes Wes out of any VP consideration, if he ever was...

It was actually Scheiffer that recommended McCain's **FAILURE AT AVOIDING BEING SHOT** somehow qualifies him to be president... which is ridiculous on its face.

CLARK: Because in the matters of national security policy-making, it's a matter of understanding risk. It's a matter of gauging your opponents, and it's a matter of being held accountable. John McCain's never done any of that in his official positions. I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war. He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands of millions of others in the Armed Forces as a prisoner of war. He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee, and he has traveled all over the world. But he hasn't held executive responsibility. That large squadron in the Air -- in the Navy that he commanded, it wasn't a wartime squadron. He hasn't been there and ordered the bombs to fall. He hasn't seen what it's like when diplomats come in and say, "I don't know whether we're going to be able to get this point through or not. Do you want to take the risk? What about your reputation? How do we handle it" --

SCHIEFFER: Well --

CLARK: -- "publicly?" He hasn't made those calls, Bob.

SCHIEFFER: Well -- well, General, maybe he --

CLARK: So --

SCHIEFFER: Could I just interrupt you? If --

CLARK: Sure.

SCHIEFFER: I have to say, Barack Obama has not had any of those experiences either, nor has he ridden in a fighter plane and gotten shot down. I mean --

CLARK: Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president.

SCHIEFFER: Really?

CLARK: But Barack is not -- he is not running on the fact that he has made these national security pronouncements. He's running on his other strengths. He's running on the strengths of character, on the strengths of his communication skills, on the strengths of his judgment -- and those are qualities that we seek in our national leadership.

"including allowing his campaign surrogates to demean and attack John McCain's military service record."

If McCain and his supporters didn't hold it up as his primary strength over Obama I would agree. However, if McCain wants to trot out his military career, he has to expect people to look at it and see if he's all he claims to be. I think it's absolutely appropriate for someone as qualified as Gen. Clark to point out that in their eyes McCain's claims and reality don't add up.

Exactly. The excuse used for pounding Kerry in 04 was that he used his military service all the time. If McCain is going to run with his military service out front, then it becomes fair game.


I heard that he told the captors everything they wanted to know, thus earning him the name 'songbird'.

Lipzoidal-
That's what Bush Republicans called him in 2000. I thought it was despicable then, and I feel the same way now.
But that has nothing to do with what Clark actually said.

CLARK: -- "publicly?" He hasn't made those calls, Bob.

Sure he has. He pontificated, based on his experience bbq'ing sailors on the Forrestal and singing to the Cong that the Iraq war would be short, cheap and the sunnis and shia would sing kumbaya together.


He was only totally wrong. Almost Bushlike.

Scary to think of a guy so as Mcsame clueless with his finger on the nuclear trigger.

If McCain is making his service part of his qualifications for the presidency, then scrutinize it hardcore. It was fair for Kerry and it's fair for McCain.

Westly Clark is a democratic retread. Those that served with him in NATO have little respect for Clark. He is obviously trying to get an appointment in the Obama administration if Obama should become the first Arab American President.

Bit of a stretch there by Gen. Clark. I was really pushing for him to be the veep, but don't see that happening anymore. IMO Gen. Clark was trying to hard to get that veep slot and just went overboard.

I couldn't give a rat's ass about military career. I am not voting for someone who admittedly doesnt know how to use a computer.....Grampy McCain.

The one goal of a soldier is to: 1) Not Die. 2) Not get captured.

How are you a 'hero' if you fail at your job?

"1) Not Die."

Horseshit.

It's to make the other dumb son-of-a-bitch die.

I heard that he told the captors everything they wanted to know, thus earning him the name 'songbird'.

Jeez, I heard Obama had gay sex and coke parties with his church choirmaster back in the late 1990's, and then had him killed last year when it looked like the whole affair was about to come out...

Oh damn, now see what shameless shit you started, Lipizoidal? Whisper, whisper, whisper....

Being a shitty pilot and a squealer does not a hero make.

Clark is correct. Military service isn't even valuable if you intend to stay involved a pointless war designed to impose democracy on a nation. McCain fought in a war that was lost buy the US. Furthermore he spent the majority of his service in prison and not in war theater.

I have been telling you all this for some time now.

When does crashing your plane make you a hero?

When does giving away military information to the enemy for medical treatment make you a hero?

When does getting a highly sought position in a jet because of who your daddy, make you a hero?

When does losing 5 military aircraft make you a hero?

McCain can run however he wants, but a "war hero" he is not and if he plans on running as a "war hero" he needs to be called out on it.

As an officer in the US Navy, John McCain was a failure. He would have better served this country pumping gas.

Wesley Clark is to the military what Carter is to the Presidency. So consider the source

Manypaths, does your definition of a hero hold true to Kerry and Murtha or just McCain because he is a Repuiblican?

I don't care what political party he is.

Why don't you answer my questions, Political party aside?

How do those question pertain to Kerry?

I do look forward to your effort.


Wesley Clark is to the military what Carter is to the Presidency. So consider the source


Manypaths, does your definition of a hero hold true to Kerry and Murtha or just McCain because he is a Repuiblican?

Where is the "Fucking Hypocrit" Flag?

Why won't the "War Hero" release his Navy records?

If you hear ANYONE mention that McCain is a "War hero", ask to see McCain's Navy records to prove it.

Why won't the "War Hero" release his Navy records?

I served under Clark at SHAPE, albeit not directly and there were rumors no one liked him and he was an asshole.

He's running on the strengths of character, on the strengths of his communication skills, on the strengths of his judgment

In other words, obama has no experience...

Has McCain ever said he was a hero (I'm honestly asking)?

As for experience, McCains time commanding sailors is a hell of a lot more impressive than organizing a community.

By the way, what "community" did Hussein organize. I'd like to find out what the crime rate was, the avergae HH Income, the unemployment rate, and of course the number of empty grape soda cans per block.
My next door neighbor is the block club president. Unfortunately (well, fortunately for me) he's white so he won't be running for the Dem nod in 2012.

So, when somebody gets around to it, the name of the community would be appreciated.

I just heard what Clark, this little scum sucking bastered just said about McCain. This little SHIT HEAD is a ASSHOLE and someone should punch him in the mouth so he can't suck dicks anymore.

You liberals are F-ing nuts.

Anyone who volunteers to serve their country and face death in a war for their country is a hero in my book. That would apply to any Democrat or Republican.

Read this again folks and understand that Egomaniac Wesley Clark is REALLY trying to say which is: I (Wesley Clark) AM QUALIFIED FOR PRESIDENT.

No, being a Navy pilot and subsequent prisoner in a war does NOT qualify you to be President. Neither does being a "Community Organiser" or "turning down a Wall Street job" or being "Black" or being a member of "Black Theology" nor any of the things Barack Obama has done in his life.

Here are the qualifiactions for being President:

You have to be a natural-born US Citizen (a citizen from birth - but not necessarily born in the USA, which is a common misconception).


You have to be at least 35 years of age.


You have to reside in the US for at least 14 years.

Obama on bloomberg TV " I'm going to cancel the Cap gains and dividend tax cuts and restore upward mobility" (The death knoll for the stock and bond markets BTW...)

Now there's a 3 wheeled wagon for you. Upping taxes is going to "restore upward mobility"? That's a pig in a poke FOR SURE. I challenge ANYONE to explain his line of reasoning!

He's running on his other strengths. He's running on the strengths of character, on the strengths of his communication skills, on the strengths of his judgment -- and those are qualities that we seek in our national leadership.

Posted by mcas at 2008-06-30 03:06 PM |


Well--I don't think that working as a community activist and under the Daley machine as a senator for 8 years and one year as US Senator qualifies Obama for anything at all!

He's good at making a speech--his judgment on his pastor for 20 years and bomber of the Pentagon and ACORN and REZKO--are not the traits of any kind of good judgment at all. In fact, it's the worse kind of judgment that my 12 year old son would have better sense to avoid.

Clark is a snake and just lost any chance of him being chosen as VP under Obama. What a sleezebag.

Obama threw him under the bus--so the bus count is up to five and a half for the Obama scumbags.

Where are the McCain Radio and Tv Broadcasts that he recorded for the Vietnamese. This is important to bring out. He cost American lives with his betrayel.

Obama on bloomberg TV " I'm going to cancel the Cap gains and dividend tax cuts and restore upward mobility" (The death knoll for the stock and bond markets BTW...)

LOL. He plans on bringing down rich people which in his view "elevates" poor people.

You have to be at least 35 years of age.


You have to reside in the US for at least 14 years.

I think you should also be able to High-5 someone.

Why won't the "War Hero" release his Navy records?


If you hear ANYONE mention that McCain is a "War hero", ask to see McCain's Navy records to prove it.


Why won't the "War Hero" release his Navy records?

Posted by Manypaths at 2008-06-30 05:55 PM

Hey Many--you friggin idiot!

How about that each time he survived being shot down HE GOT BACK INTO THE PLANE TO FLY AGAIN!!!

The Vietnamese offered to send McCain home and McCain said NO--he would stay with his men, his buddies at the Hanoi Hilton.

He probably saved lives doing this and sacrificed his own freedom for the others who were captured and being tortured.

Many--YOU MF SOB!


Where are the McCain Radio and Tv Broadcasts that he recorded for the Vietnamese. This is important to bring out. He cost American lives with his betrayel.


Posted by denvgray

Last I heard they were in Cheney's office.

I think you should also be able to High-5 someone.

Posted by Manypaths at 2008-06-30 06:22 PM | Reply | F


Fucking classic!

Clark must be PISSED that someone as decorated and experienced as him is not going to be President and someone like Obama might be. That must eat him up bad.

Where did Clark say that McCain was "no hero"?

"I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war. He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in Armed Forces as a prisoner of war. He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee, and he has traveled all over the world. But he hasn't held executive responsibility."

Sounds like this headline is a lie. Where's Rob The Headline Nazi?

"How about that each time he survived being shot down HE GOT BACK INTO THE PLANE TO FLY AGAIN!!!"

Good for him, and good for us. But that's no reason not to release his war records.

"The Vietnamese offered to send McCain home and McCain said NO--he would stay with his men, his buddies at the Hanoi Hilton."

I appreciate that, especially since he was fighting for my freedoms. But again, not a reason to keep his records private.

"He probably saved lives doing this and sacrificed his own freedom for the others who were captured and being tortured."

Yup, but still...no reason not to release his service records.

Look, it was a huge deal 4 years ago with Kerry. Were the Republicans wrong to demand Kerry's records, or are the Democrats right to demand McCain's? Which is it?

"Clark is someone who I have great respect for and had hope he'd be on the ticket"

Clark is a whore. A Dandy. He spent most of his career dancing around the Pentagon giving blow jobs and stroking egos to gain rank.

If you think Osama should be president because of his experience as a "community organizer" then sure, I can see why you have such great respect for Clark, who also did nothing.

THIS TITLE IS MISLEADING. AT NO POINT DID CLARK SAY MCCAIN WASN'T A HERO.

IN FACT, HE SAID:

"He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands of millions of others in the Armed Forces as a prisoner of war."

Look, it was a huge deal 4 years ago with Kerry. Were the Republicans wrong to demand Kerry's records, or are the Democrats right to demand McCain's? Which is it?

Good question, but let's ask it this way:

Was Kerry wrong in denying to releasing his records or were the Republicans right in asking for it??

Kerry still hasn't released his records!

And so friggin what?

Are you expecting the Vietnamese wrote reports and gave them to the Navy?

And if there were confessions--the enemy would have published them.

Some folks are sooo low.

Clark is at the top of the list--followed by the goofballs here at the DR.


Being a shitty pilot and a squealer does not a hero make.

Posted by COMMONSENSE at 2008-06-30 05:28 PM | Reply

I don't care for McCain as president, but you are ignorant, and an asshole. McCain was shot down on his 23rd mission over North Vietnam. Surviving 22 missions under hostile enemy fire does make a hero.

" appreciate that, especially since he was fighting for my freedoms."

In Vietnam? How so?

"Anyone who volunteers to serve their country and face death in a war for their country is a hero in my book."

But does it mean that said person would make a good president or sound foreign policy choices? Absolutely not. It is possible to honor and respect McCain's military service and still question whether it makes him a quality candidate.

"In Vietnam? How so?"

As a member of the military, under orders from his civilian commanders.

For someone with the handle of Commonsense--you sure don't have any.

Where is the "Fucking Hypocrit" Flag?

Posted by Manypaths at 2008-06-30 05:41 PM | Reply

Perhaps someone is trying to be kind to you and not use it

"Good question, but let's ask it this way:"

Huh? Think of it first next time. But...I'll play. The Rs had every right to see Kerry's records.

Now...where are McCain's?

It is possible to honor and respect McCain's military service and still question whether it makes him a quality candidate.

Posted by jpw at 2008-06-30 06:39 PM


And what pray tell jpw--are the qualifications of one Mr. Barack Hussein Obama?

For the folks who hated this line of attack when it was Kerry--it sure is amazing you would do the same thing to someone else who is a Republican.

Puling hypocrites!

I don't care for McCain as president, but you are ignorant, and an asshole. McCain was shot down on his 23rd mission over North Vietnam. Surviving 22 missions under hostile enemy fire does make a hero.

Posted by vernon at 2008-06-30 06:38 PM | Reply | Flag:


"Surviving 22 missions under hostile enemy fire does make a hero"

That's convenient! I guess each and everyone involved in combat is a hero. Funny that you seem so vitriolic when it comes to Kerry serving in Combat, but when it's your parties 5th choice that we're talking about, then he's too holy to be talked about the same way.

Being called 'ignorant' and an 'asshole' from you is quite comical. Remember Sweet-Tits, I'm just parroting the SAME EXACT WORDS that your fellow righties have used here to describe the 'traitor' with the 'black love child'.

Get your own house in order before you you feign shock and horror at my comments.

For someone with the handle of Commonsense--you sure don't have any.

Posted by MURPHY at 2008-06-30 06:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn.

"" appreciate that, especially since he was fighting for my freedoms."

The war in Vietnam had nothing to do with fighting for Americans' freedom.

Murphy-
There is no part of McCain's service that Clark "questioned". (which is more than I can say for the rabid Bushlings of 2000)

Fighting for one less communist country is fighting for that one country to be a democracy.

So yeah--that is fighting for our freedoms.

If you get too many friggin dictatorships or communists running the countries around the world--that could and would end up with less freedoms for the US.

Murphy-
So you see "fighting for our freedoms" as offensive in nature, ie - we go to other lands to impose our freedoms by force, (in self-defence)?


Fighting for one less communist country is fighting for that one country to be a democracy.


So yeah--that is fighting for our freedoms.


Would somebody kindly tell Murphy this is now 2008.

Bullshit, Murphy. Vietnam had nothing to do with "fighting for democracy." The U.S. government supported rightwing thugs in Saigon all along.

Boyd--

What Clark said and his tone was derogatory to McCain and his service to this country.

Like McCain is holding his being "shot down 5 times" and held prisoner to be a qualification.

He just couldn't keep his mouth shut--and Obama sacrificed Clark because he wanted this out in the MSM.

And while we are at it--why didn't Obama serve? Oh he was too busy being a community activist and playing pool.

This is going to back fire because McCain does keep the subject on his service and his long experience in the Senate--both of which Obama has NOTHING!


Obama dutifully threw Clark under the bus.

Hey Murphy, how did losing the Vietnam war diminish your freedoms?

Murphy-
Did Clark say McCain was, "shot down 5 times"? If not, I'm not sure who you are quoting.

Null--I am not going to entertain your revisionist history of the Vietnam war.

It started with the French and then Eisenhower, then Kennedy then Johnson and ended with Nixon.

The reason given was to stave off another communist country.

This is personal--phuck Clark and phuck you!

"The reason given was to stave off another communist country."

The reason given?

?????

What was the real reason, then?

"And what pray tell jpw--are the qualifications of one Mr. Barack Hussein Obama?"

Did I say Obama would be a better president or that he is eminently qualified? I was commenting on the ridiculous notion that questioning whether his military experience is as valuable as is being made out is equal to slandering it entirely.

And why don't you call McCain his full name, John Sidney McCain? Fuckin hack...

There was no reason.

To rise alone.

We are always risen.

From the seeds we've sown.


OH ROKY!

Sidney?

Shit, we'll suffer for that too if McCain is elected.

"Null--I am not going to entertain your revisionist history of the Vietnam war."

You're always unintentionally entertaining, Murphy. Now answer the question. How did losing the war diminish your freedom?

Yes Boyd--

He said,

"I don't think flying around in a fighter plane getting shot down 5 times..."

They have been showing his video with Scheifer all day long on all the channels.



"The reason given was to stave off another communist country."

The reason given?


?????


What was the real reason, then?

Posted by BetelG at 2008-06-30 07:09 PM

Boyd--that is the reason--Null says it wasn't.

I'll take Sidney over Hussein every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

""The reason given was to stave off another communist country."

In other words it was a proxy war that had nothing to do with freedom or democracy.

Murphy-
Point me to the video of the "shot down five times", please.

"getting shot down 5 times"

So?
-Chuck Yeager

Null--I am not going to entertain your revisionist history of the Vietnam war.

It started with the French and then Eisenhower, then Kennedy then Johnson and ended with Nixon.

The reason given was to stave off another communist country.

This is personal--phuck Clark and phuck you!

Posted by MURPHY at 2008-06-30 07:07 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag:

Tis a funny thing about America. We just LOVEEEEE to tell other Countries how they should run their Country. Bt another Country dictating how we should run ours and the people get all indignant and say how dare they tell us how to run Our Country. How uppity of them. Why that is blasphamious to the nth degree. Funny dat Be.

Larry Mohr

"Kerry still hasn't released his records!"

Wrong(again)....

www.boston.com

Kerry allows Navy release of military, medical records
Show numerous commendations

By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff | June 7, 2005

WASHINGTON -- Senator John F. Kerry, ending at least two years of refusal, has waived privacy restrictions and authorized the release of his full military and medical records.

The records, which the Navy Personnel Command provided to the Globe, are mostly a duplication of what Kerry released during his 2004 campaign for president, including numerous commendations from commanding officers who later criticized Kerry's Vietnam service.

W. Clark is a hypocrite. Doesn't anyone remember that when he was running (and lost, of course) that he based his campaign on one thing???

MILITARY SERVICE RECORD.

Yeah--Null don't you feel good that 58,000 Americans died in Vietnam and another 2.5 million were slaughtered when the Dems voted to cut off the funding?

All because it was a proxy war--for who?

Against the Soviets? Are they not communists?

Would it not have been good for a country that was being oppressed under communism to have one friggin friend to come to their aid?

The war was managed horribly and our country suffered greatly.

But that doesn't give you license to denegrate and spit on people who served in Vietnam.

My Dad came thisclose to being shot down saving another pilot. So when I say this is personal--the attacks on McCain--I mean it.

Murphy-
I've listened to the entire interview and couldn't find the "shot down five times" bit.

Can you help me out with why you said Clark said that?

And of course JFK got his PT Boat shot up and that qualified him to be CiC.

Where is the indignation over that?

Obama has no military experience at all.

You cannot question McCain loyalty to this country and there are sure as hell questions about the Obama man who never served and sits around for 20 years with bombers and pastors who hates AmeriKKK and Rezko to get a deal on his property.

"Null don't you feel good that 58,000 Americans died in Vietnam "

Why would I feel good about that, dumbass? My side wanted to bring the troops home.

"2.5 million were slaughtered when the Dems voted to cut off the funding?"

That's bullshit.

Nobody here is denigrating those who served in Vietnam, so stop lying.

He said,

"I don't think flying around in a fighter plane getting shot down 5 times..."


They have been showing his video with Scheifer all day long on all the channels.

www.youtube.com

There are three parts--try number three first.

Murphy-
Are you sure the "shot down five times" slur wasn't from Republican Bushites in the 2000 Republican primaries (along with the "Manchurian candidate" fun and the illegitimate black baby bit)?

Minutia notwithstanding, 'Nam was a proxy war against Communist expansionism.

Granted, the CIA grossly overstated Soviet strength. Nevertheless, Communism was (and still is) a human tragedy. Over 100 million murdered in the name of the workers' paradise.

We can denigrate US foreign policy all day long; particularly in regards to the countless failures of the CIA to provide accurate intelligence - and we'd speak a fair amount of truth in doing so. Nevertheless, the US was right to oppose Communism - oppose it with every tool within her arsenal.

Where did Clark say that McCain was "no hero"?

Upon further review, I think you're right that the hed overstates the comments Clark made. I rewrote it to "Clark: McCain Never Led in Wartime."

"And of course JFK got his PT Boat shot up and that qualified him to be CiC."

That made him neither qualified or disqualified. Just like McCain's experience does not qualify him or disqualify him.

Murphy-
I also Googled 'Wesley Clark and "shot down five times"', and I get nada regarding McCain.

Why would I feel good about that, dumbass? My side wanted to bring the troops home.......Nobody here is denigrating those who served in Vietnam, so stop lying.


Your side denigrated the shit out of those who were serving at that time.

Jeff J-
Do you think we should have nuked them?

"2.5 million were slaughtered when the Dems voted to cut off the funding?"


That's bullshit.


Nobody here is denigrating those who served in Vietnam, so stop lying.

Posted by nullifidian at 2008-06-30 07:31 PM | Reply


That's not BS--that is the friggin truth.

www.aiipowmia.com

Remember the killing fields??--1975??--evacuation?-
- because the Dems wouldn't provide any more funding for the South?? Any of this ringing a bell?

And you are denegrating McCain for political purposes--so I am again telling the truth.

Right on Murphy and Humanear. On another note, it's perfect that we're actually talking about Wesley Clark's distorted view of McCain's service record - if there is one thing that McCain is solid on, it is his service to our country.

Barack is a turd for "backing out" of his strong consideration for having Town Hall style debates. He knows his strength is on the podium and that McCain is a disaster on the podium. I suppose these are the politics of change, but it seems less intimate to me. It would be great to see McCain and Obama in Town Hall style meetings at least 6 times between now and November. No moderators, just a clock and the audience. This would truly test both candidates and give the American people the opportunity to truly evaluate both candidates on merit and substance.

"I don't think flying around in a fighter plane getting shot down 5 times..."


Nope. Clark didn't say what's in your quotes.

Are you comfortable with your loose regard for facts?

Obama has no military experience at all. -Murphy


You don't say?

What proportion of 47 year old men do?

It could be a good thing that he doesn't, but you can't get into that, can you?

Do you think we should have nuked them?


What??

"Minutia notwithstanding, 'Nam was a proxy war against Communist expansionism. "

It was a proxy war against a rival superpower. It had nothing to do with communism or democracy or freedom. The Soviet Union could've been a fascist capitalist state as far as the U.S. was concerned. This was geopolitical power politics with the sole goal of maintaining U.S. global domination.

It had nothing to do with communism


Actually, it had much to do with Communism.


Other than that, I agree with the remainder of your post.

Boyd--go to the you tube and play the friggin interview. He said it.

And McCain's experience is wholly better than Obamas --who has none-nil-zilch-nada-nin-zero!

This is coming from the man who almost started World War III????!!!!

"But General Clark's plan was blocked by General Sir Mike Jackson, K-For's British commander.

"I'm not going to start the Third World War for you," he reportedly told General Clark during one heated exchange."

SOURCE: news.bbc.co.uk

And McCain's experience is wholly better than Obamas --who has none-nil-zilch-nada-nin-zero!


So Murph....are you suggesting that Obama lacks experience?

;-)

"That's not BS--that is the friggin truth.

www.aiipowmia.com

Remember the killing fields??--1975??--evacuation?-
- because the Dems wouldn't provide any more funding for the South?? Any of this ringing a bell?"


Now you're changing the subject to Cambodia. Given that the U.S. paved the way for the Khmer Rouge by destabilizing the Cambodian government, by a massive bombing campaign, and by invasion, that's probably not a good idea. Especially considering the U.S. supported the Khmer Rouge and it took the North Vietnamese to drive them out.

"Upon further review, I think you're right that the hed overstates the comments Clark made. I rewrote it to "Clark: McCain Never Led in Wartime."

You can always count on fair headlines from Rcade, regardless of what Rob The Headline Nazi says.

Null,

Good catch regarding Cambodia vs. 'Nam.


Regarding 'Nam....


Although the carnage wasn't as severe as predicted, a couple of hundred thousand S. Vietnamese 'lost' during the 're-education' period plus the "boat people" who fled and then subjected to brutal piracy is nothing to sneeze at.

Funny that you seem so vitriolic when it comes to Kerry serving in Combat, but when it's your parties 5th choice that we're talking about

Posted by COMMONSENSE at 2008-06-30 06:45 PM | Reply

How lame and pathetic you are. Desperate to put me on the defensive, I can see.

1. My party? Who is the candidate for the Independent, non-aligned Conservatives? I did not get that letter.
2. Kerry? Is he running for president too?

Does the fact that he faked injuries to get Purple Hearts and escaped further combat have ANYTHING to do with A nAVAL AVIATOR WHO WAS SHOT DOWN AFTER 22 SUCCESSFUL MISSIONS?

3. Read my post: I'm not a McCain supporter

4. You are a dick, and not in the way a girl likes

Null,


Just as long as you don't try to sic Rob on my headlines, you and I won't have problems!

;-)

Jeff-
Over a million S.Vietnamese "'lost'" by dying for "freedom", as Murphy describes it.

YAAAAAAAYYYYY!!!



THEY CHANGED THE HEADLINE!!!

GOOD WORK, MODS!

Jeff-
...but they probably would have died in a worse communistic way later, so I guess our bombs are full of mercy as well as chock-full of freedom.

Murphy-
You can't find where he said, "I don't think flying around in a fighter plane getting shot down 5 times..." etc., because he didn't say it.

So who did, or did you just make it up and put it in quotes without really understanding that you were stating as verifiable fact that Clark said that?

Murphy never gets tired of making a fool of herself.

It sucks, because I happen to really respect her, but lately she's losin it.

Bet,


You raise some fair points.

I don't pretend that US intentions regarding 'Nam were 100% noble; not even close.

Nevertheless, until the end of the Cold War, our government, regardless of who occupied the White House, treated the thread of Communist expansionism as a grave threat.

Fact is, 'Nam was less dubious than some of our adventures in Latin America (post-Ike).

A lot of the foreign policy woes of the US can be attributed to the CIA. A truly effective intelligence agency requires a degree of secrecy and non-Democratic authority that is simply not a good fit for our degree of government transparency. Couple that with a culture of CYA at all costs and it's no wonder that time and time again presidents have made bad decisions based upon terrible intel.


Anyhow, it's easy for all of us to be armchair quarterbacks.

Boyd--

I just ran thru the you tube--

www.youtube.com


They cut the part out that he said "5 times".

You can read his lips and the sound is different from his word and mouth.

"I don't believe riding around a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification."

He said 5 times--I just heard it on Savage!

Was McCain shot down 5 times?

Hey BetelG You got to remember the right don't care about how many US Bombs kill. They just say oh that's no big deal it's just collateral damage. It's not a big deal at all. AMericans are too God damned arrogant for Her own Good.

Larry Mohr

They cut the part out that he said "5 times".

Of course they did, sweetie....

Was McCain shot down 5 times?

Posted by MURPHY at 2008-06-30 08:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

Why don't you look it up?

Anyhow, it's easy for all of us to be armchair quarterbacks.

Posted by JeffJ at 2008-06-30 08:08 PM |

The founders rejected that philosophy, though it's hard to tell these days, what with the "moderate" authoritarians running around from station to station dispensing conventional wisdom.

"They cut the part out that he said "5 times".

You can read his lips and the sound is different from his word and mouth."

And what's the time on that video when this happens?

"I don't believe riding around a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification."


Boyd--is this something that is less derogatory than adding "5 times" in the statement?

Boyd--is this something that is less derogatory than adding "5 times" in the statement?


No, it isn't.


Nevertheless, Boyd has a tendency toward parsing semantics and asking a lot of meaningless questions in lieu of making declarative statements and actually engaging in to-and-fro discourse.

If not, then why didn't you use the actual quote instead of using and defending the fake one ad nauseam?

Where'd you get the "quote", and will you trust them as a factual source in the future??

Later all.

asking a lot of meaningless questions

Meaningless to you, maybe.

parsing semantics

When it's a quote attributed to a person, the words (within quotation marks!) are all there is.

Shall I make up some quotes and attribute tham to Jeff or Murphy and then argue that it's in the spirit of what they actually said?

I mis-heard the "5 times"--I could swear he said it--must be the slurring of his accent.

It doesn't take away his derogatory tone and Clark is an idiot.

"I don't believe riding around a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification for president".

"I don't believe riding around a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification for president".

It isn't.



If you get too many friggin dictatorships or communists running the countries around the world--that could and would end up with less freedoms for the US.

Posted by MURPHY


This chick murphy is too far gone. Give her a break, guys.

Murphy-
What came of this?

They cut the part out that he said "5 times".

You can read his lips and the sound is different from his word and mouth.

"I don't believe riding around a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification."

He said 5 times--I just heard it on Savage!

Was McCain shot down 5 times?

Posted by MURPHY at 2008-06-30 08:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

Was McCain shot down 5 times?

McCain destroyed 5 planes while in the military.

First, as a student pilot, he crashed while trying to land in Corpus Christi. Pilot error.

Second, he lost a plane after hitting a power line near the Iberian Peninsula. Again, pilot error.

While flying back from the Army/Navy football game McCain crashed a third plane due to unspecified "mechanical failures". Spud calls this "covered up pilot error".

The fourth was on the USS Forrestal. Allegation have been made that it was John Sidney McCain III who wet-started his jet that caused the missile on the jet behind him to tske off and hit the ship. Of course the official story is that it was the fault of the guy behind him. Many servicemen were killed in the subsequent fire.

The fifth and final one was when he was shot down over North Vietnam during his 23rd mission on Oct. 26, 1967.

20 hours of air combat in total.

5 dead planes.

He got 28 medals fer all that.

If he hadn't been the son and grandson of Admirals he prolly would not have been given all those chances.

No hero.

He a hero only in the same way Dumbya is a cowboy.

He's a fake one.

Don't be fooled again.

Be Well.

This is a huge mistake for Obama to go after McCain --his service and loyalty for the country.

The only fake person is the empty suit Obama.

So since Obama says he won't question anyone's patriotism in this campaign--will he quit since he sent Clark out there to do just that?

Oh that's right--he threw Clark under the bus.

will he quit since he sent Clark out there to do just that?

Just can't help yourself, can you?

Obama is a fake --this is surrogate talk--same as Obama talk.

He said months ago that Obama didn't have the qualifications to the POTUS--when he was rooting for Hillary.

He is a snake.

"This is a huge mistake for Obama to go after McCain --his service and loyalty for the country."

It would be a mistake if he did that, but he hasn't, so what the fuck are you talking about?

Shall I make up some quotes and attribute tham to Jeff or Murphy and then argue that it's in the spirit of what they actually said?


Accuracy is important, I'll give you that.

Nevertheless, Murph backed off (indirectly) the '5 times' comment and asked point-blank that if removing the '5 times' comment made the comment any less derogatory. Yet, you still continue to harp on the '5 times' comment after it's no longer important to the topic at hand.

At what point do you move on from that and actually address her point?

"since he sent Clark out there to do just that?"

When are you going to stop lying?

"This is a huge mistake for Obama to go after McCain --his service and loyalty for the country."

Obama always praises McCain's service to his country and never "goes after" him as regards his military record.

If you'd paid even the slightest bit of attention wotsoever you would know this.

That sed, Spud aint Obama walking the political tightrope of expressable opinion and thus Spud feels perfectly free to speak his mind on the PTSD case, non-hero, cover-up artist and loser aka John McCain.

And Spud aint alone in that.

Be Well.

"Nevertheless, Murph backed off (indirectly) the '5 times' comment....."

Was that before or after she accused unnamed nefarious forces for altering the audio?

Hey hey hey...Let's all agree Obama isn't yellow....

Clark is a surrogate for Obama--if you don't think this was planned out--I have some farm land in Iowa for you.

Clark was derogatory and being an ass for saying that McCain's service does nothing to qualify him for POTUS.

Which is hugely amazing since it only highlights the fact that Obama did nothing except put up posters as a community activist and play pool in the hood.

Bet,


I cede your point regarding the inaccuracy of the quote.

Are you willing to finally push that aside and address the broader point?

Ms. Murphy, as is her wont, tends to make many statements of "fact" that turn out to be not so factual. Just like on this particular thread where she declared Kerry never released his military records (false), and swore that Clark said McCain was shot down 5 times (also false).

This happens so often and yet she is baffled as to why no one thinks she has any credibility as we try to discern which are the lies and which are simply the unquestioned talking points she throws out.

Obama always praises McCain's service to his country and never "goes after" him as regards his military record.

That's true. Just as Bush praised and defended Kerry's service all-the-while having his surrogates trash Kerry's service.


This is the same thing, although on a much smaller scale. So far.

MURPHY ROCKS. Consider her opinion and quit being small leftie dicks.

"if you don't think this was planned out--I have some farm land in Iowa for you."

You're a liar, pure and simple. You just make up shit. Everyday.

Boyd--I said I must have mis-heard the 5 times within the quote. Read up the thread.

But this does not change what Clark said as a SURROGATE of Obama which was derogatory and assinine.

They had this planned as Obama giving his redefinition of patriotism speech today.

Obama wouldn't go to the mat--he sits back and has his surrogates do it.

Then denounces them and throws them under the bus with the other 2500 people.

You're a liar, pure and simple.


And you are naive.


Are you trying to suggest that politicians are above this type of thing?


If this were 2004 and this comment was directed at Kerry, you'd be spouting the exact same shit that Murph is spouting now.

""Nevertheless, Murph backed off (indirectly) the '5 times' comment....."

Yeah, she said she had difficulty with Clark's "accent". lol

"I said I must have mis-heard the 5 times within the quote."

You know, that might almost have been believable, if you hadn't tried to claim the tape of Clark's comments had been altered, and that you could even see his lips saying something different than the audio. Good grief.

Clark was derogatory and being an ass for saying that McCain's service does nothing to qualify him for POTUS.

Precisely how does McCain's 20 hours of air combat time qualify him fer POTUS?

Spud is eagerly await yer reply.

* Spud kicks back and pops some corn *

(This oughta be good)

^_^

Be Well.

"If this were 2004 and this comment was directed at Kerry, you'd be spouting the exact same shit that Murph is spouting now."

Fuck off. That's total horseshit. I don't lie my way through threads like Murphy The Liar.

"They had this planned as Obama giving his redefinition of patriotism speech today."

How do you know that, liar?

Their was a point in the war when our boys had the whole of the NV army with their backs to the water and would have been toast if some body in the gov. wouldnt have told them to back off and what the fuck is a DMZ anyway we, our millitary didnt lose the vietnam war, a bunch of stinking political scum did it for us.

Fuck off. That's total horseshit.


Really?


So, you defended the Swiftvets and their accusations?


I call bullshit.

"-I could swear he said it--must be the slurring of his accent."

What kind of "accent" does Clark have, Murphy?

"Are you trying to suggest that politicians are above this type of thing?"

I guess not, since McCain trotted out a Swiftboater today to vouch for him.

Yes, that would be as in the Swiftboaters that he so roundly denounced in 2004 as being too much like what happened to him in 2000.

"In an umbrage-taking conference call Monday afternoon, the presumptive Republican presidential nominee unveiled his "truth squad," which featured one of McCain's cellmates (Bud Day)during his time as a POW who also was featured in two infamous ads from the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth attacking 2004 Democratic candidate John Kerry."

Actually, I phrased that horribly.....


So, you bought 100% into every smear lobbied at the swiftvets yet you deride Murphy for doing the same to Clark?


Now I call bullshit.

"So, you defended the Swiftvets and their accusations?"

I'm talking about Murphy. Don't try to extrapolate my criticism of Murphy to anything or anyone else. That's dishonest.

Well San--I should be so lucky to have made two mistakes in posting here since 2003! ;o)

As for Kerry--his problem wasn't his service. I even posted HE went to Vietnam.

It was what he did afterwards and those damn hearings about Gengis Khan and throwing someone else's medals over the fence and saying they were his.

THAT'S what got Kerry in trouble.

Null--I have an opinion and you have yours. This is politics and sure as shit this was discussed between Obama and Clark.

Why the phuck did Clark even go on the Sunday show? Did he write another book?

He was there to counter Lieberman--who is a surrogate of McCain.

You and others have been posting BS about McCain and his service and his heroism for many months or more.

Now what Clark says is backfiring.

Keep going because all it does is highlight Obama and his non experience existence for POTUS.

Fuck off. That's total horseshit.

Mr Happy is getting along with everyone as usual.

which featured one of McCain's cellmates (Bud Day)during his time as a POW

Exactly San--Bud Day--Medal of Honor.

He went after Kerry over what the phucker did when he got home.

For a officer that had been RELIEVED OF COMMAND (fired in civilian language) for questions of integity.

Wesley Clark has no background or authority to question another man's military record. He has been a puppet of anyone could pull his strings

In an umbrage-taking conference call Monday afternoon, the presumptive Republican presidential nominee unveiled his "truth squad," which featured one of McCain's cellmates (Bud Day)during his time as a POW who also was featured in two infamous ads from the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth attacking 2004 Democratic candidate John Kerry."


Rogue...


So, your implication is that if Bud Day was wrong to tarnish Kerry then he must be wrong 100% of the time about everything?


Fact is, he was McCain's cell mate. As the lies against McCain's imprisonment come out, a primary source is the best weapon against that.

I guess McCain should say, "Fuck you. I don't care what you witnessed regarding Kerry's service. Talking about him in a negative way is reprehensible. Thus, your first-hand observations of what happened to me are now irrelevant. You didn't see what you saw. The fact that you corroborate my version of what happened to me makes you a liar!"

"Well San--I should be so lucky to have made two mistakes in posting here since 2003!"

Murphy, you'd be lucky to have only made two "mistakes" since 20:03 today. ;o)

"You and others have been posting BS about McCain and his service and his heroism for many months or more."

Another lie. I haven't said anything about McCain's military record. I don't think Democrats should go anywhere near it.

"So, your implication is that if Bud Day was wrong to tarnish Kerry then he must be wrong 100% of the time about everything?"

No. My implication is that if John McCain thought the Swiftboaters were wrong and dishonorable, as he stated in 2004, then he shouldn't be trotting them out now to bolster his resume.

Null--since the guy claims he's from Little Rock--I guess he has an Arkansas accent.

Although he did try to run for POTUS via Oklahoma.

And dont get started with Clark and his misques as a General.

You know what?


This is the gift that keeps on giving.


Go ahead, Dems. Swift the shit out of McCain. Mock his service as much as possible. Demean his service as much as possible. It's a losing strategy and I encourage it to the nth degree.


Please, continue...

Don't y'all think it makes sense to wait until the GOP convention before we roll into attack mode? right now, he's only the presumptive nominee, a nominee who can be replaced at the convention.

Wait until then, when he's more difficult to get rid of.

Another lie. I haven't said anything about McCain's military record. I don't think Democrats should go anywhere near it.

Posted by nullifidian

When all you have in the bag is a 9 iron, you lefties would hit the ball off the woman's tee and blame it on the GOP. Time to man up Bill. You see your boy through a foggy pair of dark glasses. Wesley Clark is a complete ass.

My implication is that if John McCain thought the Swiftboaters were wrong and dishonorable, as he stated in 2004, then he shouldn't be trotting them out now to bolster his resume.


He thought they were wrong to target Kerry's service. He felt that evertyhing that happened afterward was fair game.


Also, he's not trotting all of them out. He's trotting 1 of them out - a cell mate who can corroberate his story amidst libelous attacks.

I guess this guy's personal observations are irrelevant since he's corroborating the story of a Republican nomineee?

"It's a losing strategy and I encourage it to the nth degree. "

I agree. We don't need yet another election fought over the issue of the candidates' military record or lack of.

Later all - for real this time

jeff J-
re: "It's a losing strategy and I encourage it to the nth degree."

Where were you on the "nth" scale in 2004?

San--Bud Day is not there as a Swiftboat. Kerry is not running.

Obama never served so there is nothing to swiftboat. Only his lack of judgement for his friends of 20 years.

Bud Day was McCain's cell mate while at the Hanoi Hilton for 5 1/2 years (or how many years).

What are you saying Bud Day can't be next to McCain?

"Obama never served so there is nothing to swiftboat. Only his lack of judgement for his friends of 20 years."

LOL!

Murphy-
Bud Day seems well suited to testify regarding McCain's service. When did Bud Day serve with Kerry?

Hey Boyd, I think Tony Rezco was Skipper, and Obammy was Gilligan back in the Ilinois days...Oh, and Michelle was Lovey.

Null--then you are the first--bacause there are so many on this site that are going after McCain--it's disgraceful.

It was disgraceful in 2004 too--Kerry actually went to Vietnam--short time--but shit he went there, which is more than some folks can say.

What he did afterwards though was just awful and shown his true colors. They showed the whole thing on c-span with the hearings and the debate with John O'Neill on the Dick Cavet show.


Podesta and his group is going after McCain today at their little symposium. Center for American Progress.

Clark was outrageous--trying to smear McCain--

This is not a good strategy for Obama--this hurts him.

Boyd--do you read anything?

Bud Day did not comment about SERVING with KERRY!

Bud Day commented about what Kerry said in the hearings and his testimony about the lies of the troops and the Gehngis Khan comments.

ok? understand the Bud Day thing?

What he did afterwards though was just awful and shown his true colors

Spud is actually more impressed by wot Kerry did when he came back from Nam than wot he did when he was there.

Kerry got it.

The Vietnam War was a massive exercise in futility.

America had no real reason to bomb the shit out of the country and Kerry understood that.

McLame the Manchurian Candidate never really understood why Vietnam was a bad idea which partially explains why he can't understand why Iraq is a bad idea.

McCain is a total MIC puppet and a moron.

Be Well.

"McCain is a total MIC puppet and a moron."

You need to spell out MIC, Spud. Murphy probably doesn't have a clue as to what that acronym means.

"San--Bud Day is not there as a Swiftboat. Kerry is not running."

So what? John McCain condemned the Swiftboaters and their tactics in 2004. Day was part of that group and appeared in their ads.

So if you and Jeff say that its justified because NOW this guy can do something for McCain, then it pretty much renders your criticism of Obama moot.

You are right NUll--don't know what MIC stands for..;o)


San if you want to dig on Bud Day for saying Kerry was a traitor for what he said and did when Kerry returned--go right ahead.

You would be wrong--Kerry and his minions were not only lying--his testimony and actions are what caused the public to call our returning soldiers baby killers and spit on them.

Like I said earlier--this was personal as my Dad served. Helicopter pilot and was almost shot down trying to save Lt. Woods in 1969 (68)..

The criticism of Obama is for his lack of experience and judgement.

"San if you want to dig on Bud Day for saying Kerry was a traitor for what he said and did when Kerry returned--go right ahead."

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Do I need to type more slowly for you. The point is that McCain condemned the Swiftboaters, said they were dishonorable, and disassociated himself with their tactics. But now he wants to use one of them because it is politically convenient. If you think that's OK then all of your comments about Obama are hypocritical.

My Dad was 32 at the time. 32 is really old for a pilot.

It was 10/16/66. He was a helicopter pilot for HS-6 off the Intrepid in the Gulf of Tonka.

Lt. Robert Woods was shot down across the DMZ zone in Hanoi. He survived the crash and was using his radio to get rescued.

The ship was trying to get permission to go in to rescue him. They were going to go anyway. It was three days of bad weather until they got to Woods' position.

My Dad, with two other choppers went in with 10 Chinese mercenaries. The mercenaries repelled down the 150 feet to the ground. Eight died when they got there.

Woods was gone.

My Dad's chopper was shot at and they blew thru the helicopter, making it partially disabled.

They limped back to the Gulf, not able to get the higher altitude. When they got to the coast, the Vietcong shot at him again. This time they hit the rotor.

He managed to get the choper close to the Halsey.

It was ditched in the water about 300 feet from the ship. He saved the men on that day.

Woods had been captured and taken to the Hanoi Hilton until the end of the war.

My Dad was given the Navy Cross and Purple Heart for this.

I had to pry this out of my Dad just about 8 years ago. He doesn't like to talk about it, and I don't know where he received shrapnel.

It wasn't until after the ordeal that Washington finally gave the ok to go get Woods across the Hanoi line.

My Dad is a hero and not just for what he did in Vietnam--but for my entire life.

The criticism of Obama is for his lack of experience and judgement.

Posted by MURPHY at 2008-06-30 10:35 PM | Reply


Obama was against the Iraq conflict from the start. Obama is against the Iraq conflict now. McCain supported the Iraq conflict from the beginning. McCain supports the Iraq conflict now.

The lack of judgement is shown by McCain--and you.

Okay. Okay. Under what names are "Fairies for Obama" groups organized and operating? Come on "guys." Share the information.

Obama seems to have the homosexual vote in his corner. And after all, he's endorsed by such icons as Barbara Streisand.

I'm sure your charter member card just got lost in the mail, Johnson. Don't fret.

Why was Clark fired from his last post? Wasn't it a matter of character and integrity?

They say that Clark is inordinately ambitious and wanted the Presidency. Now it's sour grapes. Clark apparently is an egotistical offsetting asshole. Here he is denigrating McCain's servicein addition to racial agitation devoted to generating racial animoisity, it's limited to hammering in posts for politician's signs and organizing a kid's baseball league one year. Wow!

San--welcome to politics--Obama used Clark to dishonor and call into question McCain's service.

McCain's friend happens to be a Medal of Honor who was his cell mate in Hanoi and criticized Kerry for his testimony after he returned from Vietnam.

All of this is meant to try and weaken McCain and his service to this country because Obama has none.

It's one big giant deflection. It's the shell game--while you are looking over there--the pea in under here. That is Obama's strategy--

Obama loses on this issue--he better hope that the Clark remarks go away.

If the Dems pick this up they will be seen as the hypocrites as they hated when it happened to Kerry.

"Why was Clark fired from his last post? Wasn't it a matter of character and integrity?"

No. Actually Bill Cohen asked him to leave his post 3 months early. Most sources generally agree that it was because Clark advocated a course of action in Kosovo that was more aggressive than the Administration was comfortable with. Especially following the Russians surprise occupation of the airport at Pristina.

Obama seems to have the homosexual vote in his corner.
Posted by Johnson

Who do you expect the homosexuals to support, Johnson, McCain?

You really can't be serious.

Actually the comment to Clark was to get the phuck out of his face as he wasn't going to start WW3 with the airport thing. (or some such--for those who like to parse words and meaning).

"San--welcome to politics--"

Murphy, I was active in politics before you knew how to spell the word. And much of the time I was a Republican.

"McCain's friend happens to be a Medal of Honor who was his cell mate in Hanoi and criticized Kerry for his testimony after he returned from Vietnam."

You're right - that is politics. But say it any way you want to - McCain is using someone who was part of a group he wanted nothing to do with, until it now becomes politically expedient.

So what you call politics by Obama is not politics by McCain? That is the very epitome of hypocrisy, Murphy.

MURPHY

What raises questions about McCain's ability to be CiC is that he was one of the primary cheerleaders of going to war with Iraq - a war that in hindsight, by almost unanimous consensus, was a bad idea.

Where were HIS questions THEN about the need to fight that war?

He's a hothead too.

Not the right guy to have his finger on the button or be commanding our armed forces in my view.

San--I say that with a smile ;o) Welcome to politics. McCain isn't the first or the last to use his friends to make a point about the other side and their lies about his time in Hanoi.

Obama is taking the political expediency trip to new highs though. His pastor, Ayers, Pflegar, his church, Rezko,...

AU--everyone was for going into Iraq--all but Obama you say.

If he was in the Senate with the same intel--he would have voted for it too.

And what's going on now?

McCain was critical of Bush for years and was calling for a new strategy and a surge years before it was implemented. He was the only one--well maybe Lieberman too.

And now that the surge is working--McCain gets credit but where is Obama and his new found learning capabilities ??

He has none. His plan is now the same as McCain--exit with victory. Although a year ago when he was preaching to the left he wanted the troops out in 2 years, then immediately, then 16 months. If we would have left a year ago--it would have been disasterous for Iraq and the US. AQ would claim victory and Iran would be in charge.

And he is still funding the war--so much for backing up the rhetoric.

Your last comment--Yeah--they said the same thing about Reagan too.

Unlike too many Senators from BOTH sides of the aisle, Obama would have actually read the intelligence.

Those that bothered to did not vote for the war.

Those that did voted based on the information the White House gave them - not the intel they withheld that was completely at odds with the cherry picked facts presented to both Congress and the American people.

Hey, we both know we didn't need to go to war with Iraq. I would have thought McCain with his military background would have been more prudent and educated himself before becoming a cheerleader for a war. Soldiers know better than most that war is the thing to be avoided at all costs and if possible in any way. They don't usually rah rah engaging us in it.

Being a shitty pilot and a squealer does not a hero make.

Posted by COMMONSENSE at 2008-06-30 05:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

I already hate this fucking election season.

Copying Karl rove's tactics does not a human being make.

AU--everyone was for going into Iraq

Not most of the lefties here.

Maybe next time you'll listen to us. Or you can start tomorrow.

Your last comment--Yeah--they said the same thing about Reagan too.

Posted by MURPHY at 2008-06-30 11:16 PM | Reply


And they were correct. Fortunately, Reagan was just a puppet President. A mouthpiece for his handlers. Reagan had Alzheimers during his first term, that's why he couldn't stay awake during cabinet meetings. He could still make speeches---but think---no. When he said he couldn't remember 200 times in his testimony, he wasn't lying. I doubt he even knew he was in court later on in the day.

McCain is a distinguished war veteran. Whether he should be conferred hero status is not a slam dunk. Give him a purple heart for every wound. Give him a bronze star for every six months of captivity, the standard established in 1947 for recognition of non-valorous enduring of hardship. But there are degrees of heroism aren't there.

As regards McCain's heroism on the day of his capture there are several different stories:

In his book McCain describes that having been locked on by an SAM (ground to air missile) he decided not to "jink" i.e. maneuver to shake off the missile. He released his bombs, started a climb and then was hit i.e. wing shot off. He went into a dive and he ejected.

The second or maybe actually the first version was from his own lips, the coerced interview in the "hospital" shortly after capture where he said he wasn't sure if he had been hit by a missile or anti aircraft.

However his citation for the Distinguished Flying Cross reads quite differently.
"Although his aircraft was severely damaged, he continued his bomb delivery pass and released his bombs on the target. When the aircraft would not recover from the dive, Commander McCain was forced to eject over the target."

So McCain earned the DFC by having continued valiantly to his target with only one wing and delivered his bombs on target then went into a dive and crashed. Aren't these things checked for plausibility?

Actually in another interview McCain said he was "over flying" Hanoi and made no mention of the bombing sequence saying only that on bailing out he was hit by his own plane.

In an apocryphal interview with Nhan Dan dated 1967 which served as the basis of a propaganda broadcast in November of that year he was reported to have said that he never did drop his bombs at all.

So which is it?

Footnote
The McCain incident was 1967. Compare to thirty years earlier give or take.

Appeal of President Franklin D. Roosevelt on Aerial Bombardment of Civilian Populations, September 1, 1939
The President of the United States to the Governments of France, Germany, Italy, Poland and His Britannic Majesty, September 1, 1939

The ruthless bombing from the air of civilians in unfortified centers of population during the course of the hostilities which have raged in various quarters of the earth during the past few years, which has resulted in the maiming and in the death of thousands of defenseless men, women, and children, has sickened the hearts of every civilized man and woman, and has profoundly shocked the conscience of humanity.
If resort is had to this form of inhuman barbarism during the period of the tragic conflagration with which the world is now confronted, hundreds of thousands of innocent human beings who have no responsibility for, and who are not even remotely participating in, the hostilities which have now broken out, will lose their lives. I am therefore addressing this urgent appeal to every government which may be engaged in hostilities publicly to affirm its determination that its armed forces shall in no event, and under no circumstances, undertake the bombardment from the air of civilian populations or of unfortified cities, upon the understanding that these same rules of warfare will be scrupulously observed by all of their opponents. I request an immediate reply.

FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT

Defending Wes Clark
by Lt Gen Robert G Gard


The controversy over my colleague General Wesley Clark's comments on John McCain have generated a lot of media comment, much of it negative. I have known General Clark for many years: we served in the same Army and for the same country. He's a patriot. So to suppose that somehow Wesley Clark would denigrate John McCain's service to his country, while praising his bravery during the time that Senator McCain spent in an enemy prison, is absolutely ludicrous. So let's check the facts.

On CBS's "Face the Nation," General Clark said that he believed John McCain was "untried and untested." Journalist Bob Schieffer asked him to explain what he meant. How could Clark make such a claim when "you're talking about somebody who was a prisoner of war? He was a squadron commander of the largest squadron in the Navy. He's been on the Senate Armed Services Committee for lo these many years. How can you say that John McCain is un-untested and untried?" And here's General Clark's answer:

Because in the matters of national security policy making, it's a matter of understanding risk. It's a matter of gauging your opponents, and it's a matter of being held accountable. John McCain's never done any of that in his official positions. I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war. He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in Armed Forces as a prisoner of war. He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee, and he has traveled all over the world. But he hasn't held executive responsibility.

As a retired military officer and a soldier who served his country for over thirty years, I can tell you that there's nothing in what Wes Clark said with which I disagree. He has not only stated the facts, he knows something about them. John McCain was a prisoner of war, an officer who served as a squadron commander, and has been and is a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. John McCain can put his service to country up against anyone's. But General Clark has served also -- and with great courage: he was wounded four times in Vietnam -- and like John McCain, he has met and seen the enemy.

Is what Wesley Clark said true? Let's check some other facts: John McCain made claims about progress in security by walking through the streets of Baghdad. But as I recall, he was protected by at least a platoon of American soldiers and helicopters lying overhead. In matters of national security, as General Clark pointed out, "it's a matter of understanding risk," and it's "gauging your opponents;" and it's also a "matter of being held accountable."

So I too honor John McCain. And, like General Clark, I acknowledge his sacrifice for his country. But being a prisoner of the Vietnamese and serving on the Senate Armed Services Committee does not automatically qualify one for the position of Commander-in-Chief -- understanding risks, gauging your opponents and being held accountable does. We must end this glib obeisance to sacrifice and ask deeper questions: is a man who sings "bomb, bomb, bomb ... bomb, bomb Iran" a man who understands risks? Is a man who says that we must keep our troops in Iraq until we achieve an ill-defined "victory" really know how to gauge America's opponents. If we want to hold people accountable, then let's stand behind my friend Wes Clark -- and hold John McCain accountable for what he's said.

Oh, and one more thing: today President Bush signed the GI Bill --which Senator Barack Obama has unstintingly supported . The bill will spend $63 billion over ten years for increased college aid for military service members and veterans who served after September 11, 2001. Good judgment?

John McCain opposed it.

Lt. General Robert G. Gard Jr. (USA, Ret.)

Clark's comments where staged and this whole thing seems a little to convenient to me for 2 reasons. One, it eliminates any Kerry/Swift Boating allegations and the baggage that goes with it. Two, Obama's answer was canned and attempted to promote his "patriotism" and nothing more.

Calling Wesley Clark a General is like calling Jeremiah Wright a Reverend. Both are a joke. Obama's cronies continue to create a vast damage path that is being dressed up by the liberal media.

4 Star General former Supreme Allied Commander - NATO

A joke, eh?

Hm. Well, when HE was in charge the Balkans genocide and civil war was over pronto.

What's YOUR idea of a 'non-joke' general?

I wonder if McCain is learning anything? I doubt it!
With media/democrats for friends you don't need any enemies.


Clark's comments where staged and this whole thing seems a little to convenient to me for 2 reasons. One, it eliminates any Kerry/Swift Boating allegations and the baggage that goes with it. Two, Obama's answer was canned and attempted to promote his "patriotism" and nothing more.


Calling Wesley Clark a General is like calling Jeremiah Wright a Reverend. Both are a joke. Obama's cronies continue to create a vast damage path that is being dressed up by the liberal media.

Posted by aclusux at 2008-07-01 05:02 AM


BINGO BABY........because for some reason tHE VERY NEXT DAY there was an article out about mccain not being the hero we all have held him to be.
what liberal trash.
to talk such sanctamonious bullshit when we say anything about clark or cleland or kerry and then come back with shit like this and think they can get away with it....
another thing it does is it puts IT OUR THERE and also gives the messiah to look so grand and 'messiahly' by renouncing it...
BUT ITS STILL IN THE MEDIA AND BEING TALKED ABOUT.....so its win/win for the holy messiah barrywayne hussein.......

and the liberal lemmings here are lapping it up like the yellow dogs they are.

AU......still up or up early?

and I think its important to know WHY he was relieved of his duty with nato.........

and did he have something to do with tanks in waco when janet reno MURDERED all of those american citizens.

"and I think its important to know WHY he was relieved of his duty with nato........."

Posted above.

Clark's right hand man, Shoomaker helped Janet Reno take down Koresh's cult in Waco Texas. Clark indicates he had "no involvement."

M1 tanks were used and someone had to sign off on that.

Clark is a crook and a war criminal, for bombing Serbia as a Nato commander, killing civilians. Bombing churchs and Hospitals, no shame for him, another phoney retired General whose wife tells him to get the hell out of the house and leve her roses alone. "Appaling I say,Appaling."

"The retired general Wesley Clark said McCain had not "held executive responsibility" and had not commanded troops in wartime."

Has Obama?

The fact that Obama has tried to distance himself from this statement is pathetic. There is no way that people so close to a campaign rnu free and say whatever they want. This was planned - Obama didn't have to say it himself, but the message gets out there. On top of it he gets to look like the good guy by pretending to respect McCain.

joe

i think thats the point

clark is saying
mccain is running on that as his reasons to be president

obama isn't

niether have exec. experience
but only mccain is running on the experience platform

"but only mccain is running on the experience platform"

Experience is useless if you don't learn from it and McSame apparently has learned nothing by watching Bush destroy the economy and start unnecessary wars.
"Anyone voting for McCain is voting for war with Iran"...George Will.

AMERICANUNITY"|: AND OBAMA'S EXPERIENCE TO BE COMMANDER IN CHIEF?

Since WWII, whenever we declare war, money evaporates at an astonishing rate, lotsa people end up dead, tortured or imprisoned, NOTHING ELSE IS ACCOMPLISHED. Vietnam, War on Poverty, War on Drugs, or the War on Terrorism.

On the other hand the Undeclared Class War on the Working Poor is going very well. Wall Street is swimming in money while using Vietnamese and Burmese indentured servants until they waste away. Nike does it and so does Toyota. $2/hour less rent.

Mr. Maverik has abandoned his principals in favor of more ass licking of the well endowed.

After much review it appears that Clark is nothing more then a Obama mouth piece. I am still asking, how does Obama's lack of experience compare to McCains many years of experience? I'd like an answer from Clark.

"Anyone voting for McCain is voting for war with Iran"

Posted by danni

Ignoring that the dems have been helping the Bush administration fuck things up with Iran, by supporting increased covert ops with the goal of "destabilization."

www.newyorker.com

But "winning is everything."

I guess we know where Obama gets his foreign policy advice from.

www.verumserum.com

Robert G. Gard's "Other" Open Letter to the President

John on August 16, 2006

Ret. Gen. Robert G. Gard will release an open letter tomorrow signed by 21 retired military personnel. According to this story heralding the event in the LA Times, the intent of the letter is to get the President to reconsider his "hard line" Middle East policy. One of the things Gen. Gard is in favor of is negotiating with President Ahmadinejad over his nuclear ambitions.

As it happens, this isn't the first time Gen. Gard has issued such a letter. In November of 2005, he came out in support of John Murtha's call for a prompt withdrawal of troops from Iraq. This other open letter begins with a quote followed by a call to you guessed it reevaluate our foreign policy:


"What is worse than soldiers dying in vain is even more soldiers dying in vain."

The continued conflict in the Gulf War, and the massive reconstruction necessary on the Gulf Coast in the wake of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, require a reevaluation of American policy in Iraq.

The remainder of the 2005 letter is chock full of liberal talking points:

"the situation in Iraq already is a disaster, both for the American military and for Iraqi civilians."
"
Iraq became a haven for terrorists as a direct result of the U.S. invasion. It is quite possible that ending the occupation would decrease, not increase, terrorist activity"

"We are failing to accord sufficient priority to this threat [Al Qaeda], due in large part to our preoccupation with the ongoing war in Iraq."

"Accusations that arguments for policy change constitute a "cut and run" surrender is an emotional ploy that obfuscates the issue."

Now Webb has joined Clark in attacking McCain's military record. Keep it up Dems, keep it up.

A better attack on McCain re: the war and national security issues would be to point out for his support of policies that are obviously failing.

Now that Mellon Head Webb has joined Clark the dems are really digging a hole for themselves.

Clark is just pissed because he lost his white house gig to monica lewinski.

I am still asking, how does Obama's lack of experience compare to McCains many years of experience? I'd like an answer from Clark.

Posted by ozzieoswald at 2008-07-01 11:39 AM |


Ozz--you will never get an answer by the Obama crowd.

What is hilarious is that by Clark's thinking we would have to go back to Eisenhower.

And this is a huge deflection because Obama has NO experience in anything at all. This is such a joke to pick on McCain and his military experience.

When Obama is dispicable and has nothing to offer.

This was big time planned out.

Obama has no experience in economics--

McCain has 10 years on the Senate Commerce Committee.

Obama has no military experience.

McCain has 22 years, including the courage and loyalty he showed while in the Hanoi Hilton. And 16 years on the Armed Forces Committee.

Obama has no qualifications or experience in crossing the aisle. He voted 130 times "Present".

McCain has been doing it for 26 years in the Congress. McCain Feingold, McCain Kennedy, the Gang of 14.

Obama claims he had the right judgment on the war.

EEEHHHHHH--Obama was following what his liberal south side Chicago constituents would expect of him. He did nothing of courage as he was going with the status quo.

McCain being the maverick went against everyone including Bush in 2002 on the management of the war. He called for a change in strategy and fully backed the plan for the surge. He went with Campaign Finance--again going against the party. He went with the damn M-K illegal immigration bill. Crossing the aisle and being a maverick--against the party. Exhibiting more courage.

Everytime someone brings up Qualifications--is bad for Obama--because he has none at all.

"McCain has 10 years on the Senate Commerce Committee."

And (as he admits) he still knows nothing about economics?!? What's up...has grandpa been dozing at the meetings all these years?

And (as he admits) he still knows nothing about economics?!?


Good point. However, that puts him on even footing with Obama on that issue.

Funny that you seem so vitriolic when it comes to Kerry serving in Combat, but when it's your parties 5th choice that we're talking about

Posted by COMMONSENSE at 2008-06-30 06:45 PM | Reply

How lame and pathetic you are. Desperate to put me on the defensive, I can see.

1. My party? Who is the candidate for the Independent, non-aligned Conservatives? I did not get that letter.
2. Kerry? Is he running for president too?

Does the fact that he faked injuries to get Purple Hearts and escaped further combat have ANYTHING to do with A nAVAL AVIATOR WHO WAS SHOT DOWN AFTER 22 SUCCESSFUL MISSIONS?

3. Read my post: I'm not a McCain supporter

4. You are a dick, and not in the way a girl likes

Posted by vernon at 2008-06-30 07:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

Desperate? Hardly. I'm just having fun watching you have a fit over my words all while ignoring the fact that these were not only the same tactics used by the right against the McCain, in many cases they used the same words.

As for your words about Kerry, see, you're still in 'attack Kerry' mode. Is he running this time?

I realize that's OK in your book and that's what makes it funny to watch. You have nothing to base your attack on me on, but it's amusing to see you try.

NEXT!

Good point. However, that puts him on even footing with Obama on that issue.

Obama has years of experience.

McCain has the same year of experience over and over and over again.

I'll go with the one that's still capable of growth and has good judgment.

I was able to intercept a surface-to-air missile wIn McCain's own words:

AUDIO: "It doesn't take a lot of talent to get shot down."

In McTaint's own words?

Speaking of which, Spud just found Obama's golden ticket to the WH.

McCain's pwned by his own words

DNC needs to run that as a commercial the next time McNasty tries to "distance" himself from BushCo's reign of errors.

Be Well.

/Okay super duper gone now! Must sleep.

SPUD

I've been a fan of JedReport's video mashups for a long time.

My favorite was Hillary's "I remember landing under Sniper Fire". Hilarious!

Hillary in Tuzla: The Tale of Bosnian Sniper Fire (TRAILER)

This one was funny too:

Hillary WASN'T LYING! Bosnia gunfire footage discovered...

The fact that Obama has tried to distance himself from this statement is pathetic. There is no way that people so close to a campaign rnu free and say whatever they want. This was planned - Obama didn't have to say it himself, but the message gets out there. On top of it he gets to look like the good guy by pretending to respect McCain.

Posted by JOE at 2008


another bingo......the media is in on it as sure as larry is having another clark bar........and obama can make his little crackerbarrel comments about how he doesnt condone that and its not the way he will run the campaign and ALL THE WHILE his surrogates in the media and dc are still hammering away.
first of all...wesley clark couldnt carry mccains jockstrap when it comes to this subject......


and the mccain commment on the economy is yet another example of why we conservatives here on the DR cannot afford to get lazy and make a comment like that one in the spirit of good natured debate with some selfdemeaning comment meant as lighthearted.......since the left HAS NO REAL SENSE OF HUMOR, they see this as weakness and pounce on it..........

It's gonna be fun to know you're hearing the words "And in further news today, President Obama..."

And all thanks to the kindness of those who voted for George W Bush. The bus driver who drove America into the ditch.

The GOP is sunk for the foreseeable future thanks to you all.

AU...

Enjoy my friend!

www.drudge.com

"And in further news today, President Obama" the first Arab american president welcomed Moqtada al-Sadr to the white house.

Dim bulb.

"Dim Bulb" That is after Obama signed the largest tax increase in US history. Give me MO!

"Dim Bulb" That is after Obama signed the largest tax increase in US history."

Oozie is such an idiot he doesn't know that law was signed into effect by George W. Bush, after being proposed by the Republicans, written by the Republicans, and passed by the Republicans without a single Democratic vote.

George W. Bush "signed the largest tax increase in US history", and it was all conceived and written by his party.

"Obama signed the largest tax increase in US history."

I love how people get pissed about taxes but they don't give a shit that this president spends like crazy - partially because he just signs off on almost every piece of pork that crosses his desk because he can't be bothered to do anything else.

If we spend the money we have to pay eventually dumbshits.

"Wesley Clark said McCain had not "held executive responsibility" and had not commanded troops in wartime."

Well, that settles it. Since Obama has done all those things so expertly, I'm voting for HIM!

"Well, that settles it. Since Obama has done all those things so expertly, I'm voting for HIM!"

The horse is DEAD for God's sake.

But just to remind you - Clark's point is that McCain (not Obama) has offered up his military experience as one reason he is better qualified to be President.

It is not unreasonable to then delve into exactly what that experience entailed. If you see a resume that says "worked for a Fortune 500 company", do you want to know if that person was a janitor there, or an executive?

McCain deserves respect for having served his country. Wes Clark did that too, yet many of you have no trouble savaging him and denigrating his service.

"It is not unreasonable" - scratch the "not"

Well crap, I can't even edit my own stuff right today. put the stupid "not" back in.

SANOBAMA: Surprise, surprise. What a shock. SANOBAMA is voting for FLOP EARS. Whow!

Bit slow on the pick up, aren't you Oozie?

Let's make Jessica Lynch president.

She was a POW...whoopdie fuggin dooo.

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