You bet it threatens the big gov repubs!

Barr's candidacy should scare the hell out of them.
What to do? ...when realistically a vote for Barr will be a vote for BHO?

Huckabee is just plain retarded..

He's not retarded, Sprague, he's just reminding the base that Libertarianism is more or less Republicanism without the religion.

Kerrin57 got it right.

Between Barr and Paul, how much of the Republican vote do you think they are going to suck away from McCain?

10-15% is my guess.

He's not retarded, Sprague, he's just reminding the base that Libertarianism is more or less Republicanism without the religion.

What are you talking about???? This dipshit is claiming that the beliefs of our forefathers are Unamerican. He is an uneducated shit-for-brains..

Republicanism has changed dramatically over the years and it would be intellectually dishonest to pretend that Taft and Bush are even close in their beliefs..

I am retarded for F'ing up my italics above..

"This dipshit is claiming that the beliefs of our forefathers are Unamerican."

Posted by jsprague

When confronted with the beliefs of the forefathers, most republicans on this site say the very same thing.

"I am retarded for F'ing up my italics above.."

Posted by jsprague

Got too excited to post, huh? No worries... Been there.

When confronted with the beliefs of the forefathers, most republicans on this site say the very same thing.

You need to lay off the sauce.. First of all, I am not a republicrat... Second, the republicans on this site are mostly despicable neocons which I abhore. If I were a modern-day republican, I would be in support of the idiotic statement made by Huckleberry.

You need to learn that the political spectrum is not a 1 axis left/right paradigm. Until you figure that out, you are just another sheeple hell-bent on destroying this country..

"Barr's candidacy should scare the hell out of them."

YEAH!

If not Just by that Creepy Mustache!

The guy looks like a heavier John Waters!

You need to lay off the sauce.. First of all, I am not a republicrat... Second, the republicans on this site are mostly despicable neocons which I abhore. You need to learn that the political spectrum is not a 1 axis left/right paradigm. Until you figure that out, you are just another sheeple hell-bent on destroying this country..

Posted by jsprague

No sauce (blew through my bourbon blogging yesterday). I wasn't talking about you, sprague. I know you're a closet Nader supporter. Well, when you use terms like republicrat, I guess the closet door is ajar a bit. And I'm not criticizing you for it either.

The guy looks like a heavier John Waters!

Posted by Redneckville

Don't put down John Waters like that.

I wasn't talking about you, sprague. I know you're a closet Nader supporter. Well, when you use terms like republicrat, I guess the closet door is ajar a bit. And I'm not criticizing you for it either.

Wow.. you are so full of shit.. I am not a CLOSET supporter of anyone.. I wear my beliefs on my sleeve. Nader has some good ideas, but I am a libertarian, although I am not sure that I can support Barr. Unlike the rest of you, I don't vote on party lines..

Wow.. you are so full of shit..
Posted by jsprague

Quit trying to troll for a response, sprague...
I knew it was one fringe or another with you... I guessed wrong with Nader.
You don't have the first idea about my voting record.
Sheeple... he he he.

If he's not careful Huckleberry won't be ANYONE's V.P.

Don't put down John Waters like that.
Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2008-05-30 01:37 PM


YEAH!

You're Right! I Adore John Waters Work and he isn't deserving of such a comparison!

Let me rephrase!


Barr looks like John Waters Older and Untalented Ugly Brother!

Barr looks like John Waters Older and Untalented Ugly Brother!

Posted by Redneckville

Much better.

the huckster by golly is a fruad

Dear all True Blooded Republicans,

Ronald Reagen Once said, "If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism."

The republican Party Today is not the Party of Reagen. This is the second in as many weeks (santorium Last week) to say this. They are now trying to steer this country into a Christian Version of China, Where the government tells you how to act what is morally execptable and if you dont agree it is illegal. They are for Bigger Government and the Government more invovled in your everyday life.
The rest of the quota
"I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberalsif we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is."

Bush has pretty much done everything he can to destroy personal freedom and get the government more invovled in Peoples private lives. Social Conserviates are for More government invovlement in our personal lives, not less.

and while i am ranting, Reagen also Talk with our enemies Mainly Russia and Iran, So according to you he is an Appeser. Even though by talking to our enemies he managed to end the cold war. but why should we believe just because it worked before that it might work again. It is really sad that all of you that hold reagan as one of our greatest leaders would follow so quickly and Blindly away from what made him a great leader. and followed these false prophets of his words.

Are you related to Johnson?

no just pissed off at the state of the Republican Party.

And no Republican who loves Reagen can answer how the Republican Party today can still be call the party of Reagen. They no longer follow his doctrine. But they still Blindly follow. To be honest. It is really said when Dems Forgien Policy is Closer to Reagens then Republicans

I still cant understand why the dems havent figured out one thing. in 06 they won and they have won traditional republican seats lately.....and HOW did they do that and what did the winners have in common.
they were CONSERVATIVE DEMS....they didnt believe in gay marriage or abortion for starters.
when will the national dems see that this is who they should be running.....but where in the dem national party would that person be and they wouldnt survive the soros test anyway.....

so we are glad they arent seeing that.....

Un-American, does this former contender for the Republician Nomination for President realize who stupid these statements make him out to be. If anyone wonders why most Americans think that these Bible Belt idiots are just that, Idiots only have to read this statement. The statement that anyone politics are un-American, how stupid is this one tooth Hick???

Can one be an American an be a member of the American NAZI Party, YES they can!!!
Can one be an American an be a member of the KKK, YES they can!!!
Can one be an American an be a member of the Communist Party, YES they can!!!

What the Hell Constitution are these Republicians reading, The American Constitution allows "We the People" to Pick an chose what ever Politics we want, whatever Relegion we want. Whats next maybe Mr. Huckabee will have a problem with Blacks being Un-Americans, or maybe Jews being Un-Americans.

This Republician Party has for Forty Years used the politics of Racism and Fear to get elected over an over again one can only hope that we in America has had enough of this CRAP!!!!

Fuck you Huckabee

Huckabee's description of libertarianism is spot on.

"The greatest threat to classic Republicanism is not liberalism; it's this new brand of libertarianism, which is social liberalism and economic conservatism, but it's a heartless, callous, soulless type of economic conservatism because it says "look, we want to cut taxes and eliminate government. If it means that elderly people don't get their Medicare drugs, so be it. If it means little kids go without education and healthcare, so be it." Well, that might be a quote pure economic conservative message, but it's not an American message. It doesn't fly. People aren't going to buy that, because that's not the way we are as a people. That's not historic Republicanism. Historic Republicanism does not hate government; it's just there to be as little of it as there can be. But they also recognize that government has to be paid for.

If you have a breakdown in the social structure of a community, it's going to result in a more costly government ... police on the streets, prison beds, court costs, alcohol abuse centers, domestic violence shelters, all are very expensive. What's the answer to that? Cut them out? Well, the libertarians say "yes, we shouldn't be funding that stuff." But what you've done then is exacerbate a serious problem in your community. You can take the cops off the streets and just quit funding prison beds. Are your neighborhoods safer? Is it a better place to live? The net result is you have now a bigger problem than you had before."

Community starts with the family, not the Federal Government.

Why do the DR's more hairy-chested individualists (including females ... you know who you are) so noisily condemn party line voting?

If you're not voting by party, by a set of ideals loosely woven into an enunciated statement of beliefs, you're voting wildly, stabbing the chads of whoever comes up with the cutest corporate-produced televsion ad.

For me, Democrats embody those beliefs. I once voted Republican in a local (state senate) contest, for a friend who articulated progressive principles better than the aging Demo incumbent. Not in the last 40 years.

I probably prefer Greens, or Peace and Freedom, but tragically our political system is not set up to accommodate their ideas. The best our "democracy" allows is to vote against the greater evil.

Consistent homage to the D label does that. herm

YEA LETS STICK TO BEING PARTISAN... AND KEEP UP THE ATTITUDE

THEM vs US

WE vs YOU

MY PRESIDENT vs YOUR PRESIDENT

THE COUNTRY COMEs CLOSER TOGETHER WHEN YOU ARE PARTISAN

Huckabee is right. Libertarianism IS unamerican. Americans like their socialism and fascism good and hard.

O M G !!

I finally found myself in agreement with Huckabee about something...

If we tried to follow what the Libertarians want we would be ruined quickly.

The Libertarians want to remove all protections provided citizens by the government. The only recourse left would be to use a lawsuit in the court system.

Then the Libertarians will take that away from you as well with something they call TORT REFORM.

Would take away my protections against criminals, corporations and polluters. No thank you to the 'LIBERTISTS' They do not represent American Liberty.

They ideas are un American. Too bad it was a fringe wierdo like Huckabee who has to speak the truth here but hey tip of the hat to him.

Fight fire with fire - Wierdo vs. wierder with Huckabee against the libertarians.

He's not retarded, Sprague, he's just reminding the base that Libertarianism is more or less Republicanism without the religion.

Kerrin57 got it right.

Posted by Hagbard_Celine


Thomas Jefferson was the original Libertarian.

O M G !!

I finally found myself in agreement with Huckabee about something...

Posted by Monstman


LOL!!!

So the first citizens of this country were un-American?

makes me curious...

How do you define Americanism?

The Libertarians want to remove all protections provided citizens by the government. The only recourse left would be to use a lawsuit in the court system.

Posted by Monstman


Yep! And the problem with that is?...

You see, if you keep passing Federal laws to protect this group or to protect that group, then we become a nation of groups. Excuse me, we are a nation of groups. The wisdom of the founding fathers was to protect the individual!

I say, expand the number of courts to hear all of the cases. Pratice the law! I really don't mind spending the money that way. We have intelligence/Information Processing machines to help us now with the many decisions being written in these courts. Let's use it!

"Thomas Jefferson was the original Libertarian."

Total bullshit. Losertarians are always trying to claim the founders were libertarians or "classical liberals." It's complete nonsense. You'll never hear Jefferson's egalitarian sentiments voiced by "libertarians".

The Libertarians want to remove all protections provided citizens by the government.
Posted by Monstman

Another American afraid to be free. It was a quaint notion when the Constitution was written.

Always remember. A government that steals FOR you also steals FROM you.

Well well, Jefferson and Marx thought alike. I never would have known.

"YEA LETS STICK TO BEING PARTISAN... AND KEEP UP THE ATTITUDE."

Judas is shouting. Musta hit a nerve. Buy yeah, it is us vs. them when "they" drain the nation dry. It IS your president, not mine. We will come closer together when we let that in, stop swimming in De Nile, and dislodge Demo chads in November. herm

"Well well, Jefferson and Marx thought alike."

Did someone say that? But now that you mention it, Jefferson did believe in wealth redistribution and progressive taxation.

"Thomas Jefferson was the original Libertarian."

Total bullshit. Losertarians are always trying to claim the founders were libertarians or "classical liberals." It's complete nonsense. You'll never hear Jefferson's egalitarian sentiments voiced by "libertarians".

Posted by nullifidian


sorry to stomp all over you, but you are all wet.

BTW, do you have a real argument?

Libertarians are the orginal US citizens!

suck it up!

Fuck you Huckabee
Posted by Legio

Another American afraid to be free. It was a quaint notion when the Constitution was written.
Always remember. A government that steals FOR you also steals FROM you.
Posted by Ray


Both of these posts bear repeating because they are well stated.

Have a good evening.

"sorry to stomp all over you, but you are all wet.

BTW, do you have a real argument? "


Do you? Calling someone "all wet" might be considered an "argument" by feeble minds like yours, but not by anybody else.

"Well well, Jefferson and Marx thought alike."

Did someone say that? But now that you mention it, Jefferson did believe in wealth redistribution and progressive taxation.

Posted by nullifidian


He has discussed this in his 30 plus years in government as a preventive measure of the development of an Aristocracy in America, but he never said this President, nor while he was involved in the Legislature. He talked about it in letters while Ambassador to France. You're twisting words.

Nice try though.

I am not part of the aristocracy, but I pay enough income taxes every year, to be able to drive a new Mercedes every year!!!

"sorry to stomp all over you, but you are all wet.

BTW, do you have a real argument? "


Do you? Calling someone "all wet" might be considered an "argument" by feeble minds like yours, but not by anybody else.

Posted by nullifidian


LOL!!!

and your argument is...

nullifidian,

Are you Republican or Democrat? I'm curious to see who is more afraid of Libertarians. I think both parties are afraid.

"I am not part of the aristocracy, but I pay enough income taxes every year, to be able to drive a new Mercedes every year!!!"

Of course you did. Your ideology matches your economic interests. Happens quite often.

"nullifidian,

Are you Republican or Democrat?"


Apparently those are the only choices in your simplistic world view.

nullifidian,

Are you Republican or Democrat?"


Apparently those are the only choices in your simplistic world view.

Posted by nullifidian



And your argument is....

"He has discussed this in his 30 plus years in government as a preventive measure of the development of an Aristocracy in America, but he never said this President, nor while he was involved in the Legislature. He talked about it in letters while Ambassador to France. You're twisting words. "


In other words, Jefferson did favor progressive taxation. Thanks for proving my point. He wasn't a libertarian.

nullifidian,

So, what do you think of Ron Paul?

(this should be good)

"And your argument is.... "

Do you have a reading disability?

In other words, Jefferson did favor progressive taxation. Thanks for proving my point. He wasn't a libertarian.

Posted by nullifidian


Actually, no.

Do you understand the definition of the word Aristocrat?

So, what you are saying is that Jefferson was a Libertarian on every level except this one conversation with an official in France?

Any other arguments?

"So, what do you think of Ron Paul? "

He's kinda of a kook, but has some good positions on foreign policy, the military industrial complex, the "war on drugs," civil liberties, Patriot Act, etc.

Unfortunately he pairs that with an extreme advocacy of raw, unregulated capitalism with no social safety net, which nobody wants because everyone knows it's a disaster whenever practiced.

"Any other arguments?"

I've already refuted your nonsense about Jefferson (or really, any of the classical liberals) being libertarian, so, no.

No modern libertarian would agree with this:

"... legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property... Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise. Whenever there are in any country uncultivated lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right.
Thomas Jefferson (in a letter to James Madison), 1785"

"So, what do you think of Ron Paul? "

He's kinda of a kook, but has some good positions on foreign policy, the military industrial complex, the "war on drugs," civil liberties, Patriot Act, etc.

Unfortunately he pairs that with an extreme advocacy of raw, unregulated capitalism with no social safety net, which nobody wants because everyone knows it's a disaster whenever practiced.

Posted by nullifidian


Good point, but don't confuse unregulated capitalism with neocon-sponsored Corporatism! The kind of Corporatism that cirtually has the US Marines on the payroll!!!

If we dismantle the American Empire (before it collapses) then unregulated capitalism will work and will make US strong and innovative just like we were before.

I'm living in a fantasy, I know!

Unfortunately he pairs that with an extreme advocacy of raw, unregulated capitalism with no social safety net, which nobody wants because everyone knows it's a disaster whenever practiced.

Posted by nullifidian

It won't compare to the near future when unrestrained government goes bankrupt. That so-called social safety net is coming to a crashing end.

Thomas Jefferson (in a letter to James Madison), 1785"

Posted by nullifidian


As Ambassedor to France and after his Presidency.

Madison is the original neocon! I'm glad you brought that up.

Jefferson went to great lengths to try and hold Madison back from bringing the US into being a world power. Jefferson's dream for America was a large country made of mostly agrarian communities spread out across the vastness of the North American continent (with very few large cities). This is a Libertarian quality.

The Biggest Debt Beat Of All:

To see this is like watching the edge of an expanding black hole in interstellar space, but this is a financial hole on the verge of swallowing an entire nation. The federal government's long-term financial obligations grew by $US 2.5 TRILLION last year, a reflection of the exploding costs of Medicare and Social Security benefits as more baby boomers reach retirement age. As reported in a USA Today analysis, American taxpayers are on the hook for a record $US 57.3 TRILLION in federal liabilities to cover the lifetime benefits of everyone eligible for Medicare, Social Security and other government programs. That's $US 500,000 per household. When the liabilities of State and local governments are added to this, the total rises to $US 61.7 TRILLION. That's $US 531,472 per household, more than four times what Americans owe in personal debt and mortgages. This is now front page news on USA Today.

Staring Into The Abyss With Wide Open Eyes:

Millions must have seen this report. The presidential candidates had nothing to say. The White House had nothing to say. Congress had nothing to say. Economically, this much is certain. The debt is unpayable, even if Americans who still have any are stripped of all their assets to pay for it.

Jefferson always maintained that the purpose of the Federal government was to regulate interstate trade, raise an army, and raise revenue through tariffs.

Jefferson went to great lengths to try and hold Madison back from bringing the US into being a world power.

"If the American people ever allow the banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation
and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people
of all property until their children will wake up homeless. I sincerely believe the banking institutions
(having the issuing power of money) are more dangerous to liberty than standing armies. My zeal
against these institutions was so warm and open at the establishment of the Bank of the United States (Hamilton's foreign system), that I was derided as a maniac by the tribe of bank mongers who were
seeking to filch from the public." --Thomas Jefferson

Good one Ray

The debt is unpayable, even if Americans who still have any are stripped of all their assets to pay for it.

Posted by Ray


Ray,

the debt. who's the creditor?

I know that's we've borrowed from China, but that's only recently. We've been borrowing from the Federal Reserve for some 35 years, right?

Republicanism has changed dramatically over the years and it would be intellectually dishonest to pretend that Taft and Bush are even close in their beliefs..

Posted by jsprague at 2008-05-30 12:32 PM | Reply

And what? Today's Democrat whores are still the same as Truman and JFK (who advocated tax cuts for the rich)? It is no flash of brilliance to say that organizations change over time

Eddie
The creditors are the American taxpayers.

The Feds have been borrowing from the Federal Reserve since its creation in 1913. That's the root cause of inflation. As obvious as it is to those of who understand the nature of central banking, Americans on the whole have no understanding to what causes inflation. They see it as a flaw of capitalism. It's a case of blame the messenger. Jefferson was never more prescient as I quoted above.

Far from being a libertarian, Jefferson thought property rights were social constructs, not "natural rights".

While it is a moot question whether the origin of any kind of property is derived from Nature at all ... it is considered by those who have seriously considered the subject, that no one has, of natural right, a separate property in an acre of land ... Stable ownership is the gift of social law, and is given late in the progress of society.
Thomas Jefferson

Whatever, Nulli. Jefferson's views on a free society weren't perfect, but they were advanced for the time he lived in. After all, he did own slaves.

"Whatever, Nulli. Jefferson's views on a free society weren't perfect, but they were advanced for the time he lived in. After all, he did own slaves."

No argument there. He was a progressive, a revolutionary for his time.

Oh the sweet delicious irony...


Remember when Huck was getting murdered in fund raising around December and he realized that he needed to lie and sound more like Ron Paul so he says "I'M GONNA END THE IRS!!!! RARRRR!!!" How much our tune changes when we're seeking the VP nomination as opposed to the head cheese...

Huckabee is a completely different kind of soulless prick. He loves to tell people how to live their lives because him and his family were a bunch of fat gluttonous pigs. Somebody really needs to sit down with him and draw out what a libertarian is with crayon.

No libertarian would demand more, longer prison sentences. No libertarian would demand removing parole. No libertarian wants to add more harsh specific sentences. Libertarians want to pull all non-violent drug offenders out of prison. But the argument isn't nearly as strong when based in reality.

Aside from all of that, he wants to continue the war. Then he says "Or the federal government just runs up more deficits and let's the next couple of generations worry about paying for all this stuff." Hey, guess what, libertarians are actually concerned about this sort of thing...that's why they want the end of this war. That's why libertarians want the war talked about as a part of the budget, and "real republicans" would prefer it be kept separate and swept under the rug.

In short... this guy has no idea what HE is let alone what a libertarian is.

Iraq
I think Huckabee knows very well what libertarianism is. When he says "un-american" he means anti-political. There is no greater threat to the political establishment then libertarian ideology.

Huckelberry is a brain eating amoeba.

I was having a similar discussion with my brother (self-employed contractor) the other night. He has little or no religious beliefs. He rattled off a bunch of fairly libertarian principles, a few planks from Dem civil rights legislation, added a few disparaging remarks for Al Gore, and added "that's why I'm a Republican".

Which just makes me sad, because Republicans will take his money and his vote, tell him he's right about that devil Al Gore, and then completely fuck him the first chance they get. He just has no clue how little current Republican leadership cares about guys like him or his views.

Angry libertarians:

robertdfeinman.com

Pure idiocy.

Come on Bill! Your skills as a libertarian troll are eroding...step up your game son!

There we go...much better. At least I can laugh at that! :)

Libertarianism is Un-American.

Its more zealous adherents tend to be fucking idiots on a scale that would rival your typical left-wing Sociology grad student.

Healthy skidmarks of Libertarianism are the keystone to the underwear of this Republic.

Unfortunately, a handful of silly zealots and ideologues (Lew) have hijacked the concept and turned it into something silly and completely indiscernable from your run-of-the-mill Marxist or Nazi totalitarianism.

Libertarianism appeals to stupid people who are making an attempt to be smart, but stop at the second or third book and simply re-dig their trenc because, by God, Ayn has revealed to them all they need to know.

Hey, you asked me to step up my game. I deliver!

trench

Libertarianism is Un-American.


Hey Mao, you fuck! ;-)


Aside from the fact that Libertarians tend to be every bit as sanctimonious in their self-assuredness that their ideology reigns supreme; what about Libertarianism, on an application basis, do you disagree with?

PS - I know that is a question that can easily be answered at novel length. Furthermore, I suspect you've had a few Coors Lights, a coupla Lucky's and a quick poke, not to mention a probable diaper change thrown in. My point being, a Cliff's notes answer is all I am looking for from your sorry ass.

what about Libertarianism, on an application basis, do you disagree with

Libertarianism is selfishness.

It raises "individualism" to the status of Deity, and rejects the cultural norms and sanctions on personal behavior that make a society work.

Most of all, it's a raw ideology whose cold, simplistic logic appeals to folks who aren't quite stupid enough to be left-wingers, but still crave a deterministic conception of human organization that doesn't involve any sacrifice or acknowledgement of a Social Contract---or God.

In short, Libertarianism is something you're supposed to outgrow after your sophmore year of college.

Mao,


I actually agree with your take (to a point), however your take seems to contradict your stance on Leftism - it's almost as if Leftism has a point on certain issues, according to your critique of Libertarianism.


In short, you've thrown a curve.

Based upon what I know of your politics, I would've thought you'd be cool toward Libertarianism. Can you be more specific with your criticisms?

however your take seems to contradict your stance on Leftism - it's almost as if Leftism has a point on certain issues, according to your critique of Libertarianism.

Can you be more specific with your criticisms?

No, he can't...

He read your response, realized he painted himself in a corner and went to bed.

" it's almost as if Leftism has a point on certain issues, according to your critique of Libertarianism."

You noticed that, eh?

I would've thought you'd be cool toward Libertarianism

I'm very cool with libertarian ideas.

I embrace many of them.

I just dislike Libertarian ideologues.

Civilized people have to disperse some power to the State.

There's plenty of room for a free and civilized people to debate exactly how that power should be dispersed, but you cannot deny that the needs of an advanced society must, in some part, be provided by a collective entity---as with liberty comes responsibility to something greater than one's self.

It makes no sense for certain, non-exclusionary goods to be produced by free-market enterprises, so we default to the State to do so. It's also the function of a democratic state to preserve the institutions that allow it to remain functional and democratic.

Whatever the case, the State has a role to play---so long as it operates within the parameters set for it.

Nulli,

Yes, I did notice it.


That said, I thought Mao answered my inquiry quite well.


What say you?

He read your response, realized he painted himself in a corner and went to bed.

Oh, shut the fuck up cocksucker.

painted himself in a corner

Give me a fucking break, ankle-biter.

What say you?

He read your response, realized he painted himself in a corner and went to bed.

*woo hoo*

*take that!*

"Civilized people have to disperse some power to the State.

There's plenty of room for a free and civilized people to debate exactly how that power should be dispersed, but you cannot deny that the needs of an advanced society must, in some part, be provided by a collective entity---as with liberty comes responsibility to something greater than one's self."

The Drudge Retort is just crawling with socialists these days.

Mao,


Off topic - How's the little waste-producer doing?

The last update I've had was that he discretely tore off his shit-filled diaper and performed a Mexican hat-dance on it, after he smeared all of his feces on every surface of his room.

How's he been since then.

And, more importantly, are you planning on having more?

Null,

Congrats on the success of the Lakers.


Condolences on the failure of the Ducks.

The Libertarian ideology is OK so long as its used as a checklist against which to compare your inherent beliefs about basic human decency.

Unfortunately, you got guys like Ray who make it a point to utterly prostrate themselves for the child-like logic of Anarchy.

It's like an odd mix of economically illiterate Protectionism, atheism, and anarchy.

Marxism without the grown-ups.

Unfortunately, you got guys like Ray who make it a point to utterly prostrate themselves for the child-like logic of Anarchy.

It's like an odd mix of economically illiterate Protectionism, atheism, and anarchy.

Marxism without the grown-ups.

Posted by Pinche_Mao

Careful now! I suspect that Nullifidian has an overwhelming desire to smoke your pole over that last post!

And, more importantly, are you planning on having more?

As soon as I can get the old lady hemmed up long enough to shoot one off in her.

How's he been since then.

I got some cow-baby pictures we took after one of the brandings. I'll upload them and send them to you.

He's doing real well.

I bought him one of those trampolines they had at Sam's---big bastard with a net and covered springs and shit.

Best investment I've ever made.

Yours doing ok?

Careful now! I suspect that Nullifidian has an overwhelming desire to smoke your pole over that last post!

He'd better be willing to use an Exacto knife on both corners of his cheeks before it happens!

Maybe you two--JeffJ and Mao--should just get a room.

You know what a 9 volt battery and a chick's asshole have in common?

I'll upload them and send them to you.

Please do.


He's doing real well.

That's good to hear.



Yours doing ok?

Absolutely. My oldest is finishing 2nd grade in a coupla weeks and he enters the Magnet Program next year.

My youngest just finished 3-year old pre-school. Unfortunately, he was born in January so he misses the cut-off by a month. My oldest has a November birthday so he made the cutoff by 2 weeks. Essentially, they are 3 years and 2 months different in age, but 4 years different in schooling. As one of the youngest in his class, my oldest has done well.

That said, I have concerns for my youngest. At age 4 he can count to 109! Long story short, at his age, classroom notwithstanding, he is further along than his older brother. I guess it's a good problem to have, but I fear he will be well beyond his curriculum once he starts schooling.

You know it's just the wrong thing to do, but you're gonna have to eventually put your tongue on either one of 'em.

Tell your 4 year old that one.

He'll be at 150 by Monday.

Wow. What a couple of girlie boys, Pinche Mao and JeffJ. What shall we donate to the happy couple?

I've gotta catch some ZZZZZZZZ's.


Later all.

I guess it's a good problem to have, but I fear he will be well beyond his curriculum once he starts schooling.

I'm sure the oft-demonstrated competence of the public school system will put all your fears at ease once the time comes.

Those people know what they're doing---far more so than you do.

Tango Makes Three, Jeffery.

Good to hear all is well.

What shall we donate to the happy couple?

A 14 year old Laotian girl!!!

Oops.

That throws all the logistics work for the gift in Bill's corner.

Sorry, man.

We knew a 14 year old girl reference was coming. How? Pinche is in the room.

"Sorry, man.

Posted by Pinche_Mao"


Sorry to offend the lovely couple, Pinochet and Jeffj. Seriously, I wish you the best.

I find it odd that some people can't grasp this simple concept.. Liberalism taken too far leads to socialism, Conservatism taken too far leads to Fascism, Libertarianism taken too far leads to Anarchism. Not all libertarians are anarchists. In fact, most are not. That is like believing that all liberals are communists.. Stupid..

The idea that all libertarians believe "fuck everybody else" as nullfidian would have you believe is ridiculous. My wife and I, as well as the other libertarians we know, are probably the most generous people you would ever meet. We give way more as a percentage of salary than any of the democrats that we know (don't know any republicans so can't compare).

Most libertarians would agree that we need to have structure and government, but we believe that more of it should be handled at the state level. The federal government outgrew its constitutional bounds a very long time ago. State government offers people choice and more influence (govt by the people).

I find it baffling that some people will talk shit about a system of government that hasn't been tried in over 100 years. Meanwhile, our country is going down the toilet as the result of the efforts of our current 2 parties. Its just fear. People glom on to people like Obama that talk about "change" because it makes them feel good - especially since they know that no REAL change is going to happen. Americans are too stupid and afraid to undergo real and necessary change and that will be the undoing of our empire.

I should also mention that Democrats, despite making more money on average than republicans, give less. Yet these lefties are the ones saying that libertarians are uncompassionate and only care about themselves. Put your money where your mouth is and sacrifice for someone else!

Unfortunately, you got guys like Ray who make it a point to utterly prostrate themselves for the child-like logic of Anarchy.

It's like an odd mix of economically illiterate Protectionism, atheism, and anarchy.

Marxism without the grown-ups.

Posted by Pinche_Mao

Pinche, if you are reading this. I don't remember ever arguing for anarchy. Limited government yes. Not anarchy. Leave it to would-be despots like you to misdirect.

.........sounds like Huck is worried that the Libertarians will do to the Republicans........

.........what Nader has done to the Democrats, in past elections........

Huckabee is still campaigning for the VP spot.

"...It raises "individualism" to the status of Deity..."

Yeah? So what? It's better than supplicating one's self to an invisible sky Monster who throws lightening bolts at sinners and blind-fucks/rapes a woman just to have a son he can murder later in life.

"...but still crave a deterministic conception of human organization that doesn't involve any sacrifice or acknowledgement of a Social Contract---or God...

Yes, sure...assuming their is a 'God' - but only little children, very little children - and morons - believe in God. They also believe that little 'elves and fair folk' live in Ireland.

"...In short, Libertarianism is something you're supposed to outgrow after your sophmore year of college....Posted by Pinche_Mao"

Yeah, just in time to join the Republi-fascist who want to privatize everything in government (Can you say REAL-ANARCHY? - I KNEW YOU COULD).

Once again, taking his child's spoon out of his ass and eating those tender bits of turds. Mao, could you wipe that shit off the corner of your mouth...it's really disgusting.

You know nothing you ten-penny moron.

A few things,

The Socialist form of Libertarianism leads to Anarchism which isn't a bad thing. People own their own production and no single person can own means of productions (factories) etc. The extreme form is extreme. More practical forms are Mutualism and Progressive Libertarianism.

The American variant of Libertarianism (Ron Paul) leads to Feudalism. You in effect get a few monopolies since there is no limit to what individuals can do and the government will not intervene to help anyone. Capitalism in it's pure form as Libertarianism allows is brutal and evil. Only a few survive and control everything. Those people are not the best and the brightest but the Psychopaths.

EVERYONE on this board would benefit from a Socialist form of government. The opposing clowns don't realize that it provides a stable and healthy society.

Ray,

Pinche, if you are reading this. I don't remember ever arguing for anarchy. Limited government yes. Not anarchy. Leave it to would-be despots like you to misdirect.

Posted by Ray at 2008-05-31 07:40 AM

I have also construed your position to be in favor of anarchy or more accurately, just shy of anarchy.


I don't know that it's a misdirection so much as it is a misunderstanding of your advocacies.

"Capitalism in it's pure form as Libertarianism allows is brutal and evil. Only a few survive and control everything. Those people are not the best and the brightest but the Psychopaths."


Excellent post, Furio. And you are correct that the original anarchists used terms like libertarian, libertarian socialism, and anarchism interchangeably.

It's only in the U.S. that the word "libertarian" was hijacked by crazy rightwingers like Ayn Rand.

Jeff

I take a Darwinian view of society. It's up to future generations to find the right balance between liberty and government, if they ever do. In my personal life, I want this government out of my life as much as I can maximize. It is clear to me that our current system is dangerously incompetent and destructive, and getting worse.


I'm eating this up Nulli. You're going to be a poor as a church mouse when your government fails.

Yes Null people fail to realize that Socialism was a direct response to the Industrial Revolution and the uncontrolled Capitalism that went with it. Pure Conservative Libertarianism that used and abused the average person.

"It is clear to me that our current system is dangerously incompetent and destructive, and getting worse."

Yes Ray the current system is far from perfect. Yet what you adhere to is survival of the fittest approach. Please explain how that will help the average person.

EVERYONE on this board would benefit from a Socialist form of government. The opposing clowns don't realize that it provides a stable and healthy society.

Posted by furio

Great idea in theory if men were angels. What excuse does Furio have to explain the collapse of communism in Asia? There was the purest form of socialism. Furio also shows the same degree of ignorance as Nulli on how societies create wealth. Hint: the egalitarian theory of redistribution assumes wealth is a constant that exists a priori.

"I take a Darwinian view of society."

Yes, you are a social darwinist, Mr. Rand. Let the devil take the hindmost. Apparently you're proud that you don't give a fuck about anyone other than yourself.

Furio - I have no issue with benevolence. I take issue with the violent nature of government. If anything, it's destroying the average person. No system of rob-Peter-to-pay-Paul can be made to work. You don't accumulate wealth by stealing from your own. "Thou shall not steal" is in the Ten Commandments, yet socialist theory embraces it.

"What excuse does Furio have to explain the collapse of communism in Asia? There was the purest form of socialism."

That's hilarious. You will excuse every single flaw of capitalism as a result of it not being "pure" enough, and then try to claim that authoritarian caricatures of Marx's vision to be the "purest form of socialism."

Apparently you're proud that you don't give a fuck about anyone other than yourself.

I earned what I have. I think it is fair to say that anybody who think he deserves what I earn don't give a fuck about anyone but himself. Would that be you, Nulli?

I couldn't care less what your personal financial situation is. That's not the point. You advocate the law of the jungle: unregulated predatory capitalism.

I advocate civilization.

Nulli

Build-a-factory-and-they-will-
come is not a theory of wealth. Egalitarianism is not a theory of wealth. You have a fatal flaw in your logic and you won't own up to it.

You will excuse every single flaw of capitalism as a result of it not being "pure" enough,

You have said yourself that we do not have a laissez faire economy. What you call a flaw of capitalism is a flaw of interventionism. Whenever government interferes in the market pricing process, they produce the business cycles you attribute as a failure of capitalism. I know it is fruitless to tell you this, because I can't go beyond the grade school level with you.

You advocate the law of the jungle: unregulated predatory capitalism.

Oh my gosh! Our government is sucking the life out of our economy. We have a small class of elites who hold themselves above the law, unaccountable to no one but their own. Is that not predatory enough for you?

I advocate civilization.

Posted by nullifidian

And what you are getting is a broken, impoverished despotic nation.

All throughout history, the citizens of a nation suffer more from their own government than they do from foreign nations. Your ignorance of history is as pathetic as your ignorance of economics.

Here's another misdirection. Last for the night.

Yes, you are a social darwinist, Mr. Rand.

Every thing to you is about ideology. Evolution is a law of nature. I can't change it. The engineer in me says understand it and work with it.

Do you realize how much you have in common with Christians in wanting a god to take care of them? You're just as delusional. The State will take care of itself first and always.

"I know it is fruitless to tell you this, because I can't go beyond the grade school level with you."

Yes I know. You're a genius holding a fringe, crackpot theory of economics and you think everyone else is an idiot. Spoken like the fanatic/true believer you are. There is no difference between you and the most fervent religious fanatic.

"Every thing to you is about ideology. Evolution is a law of nature."

Evolution is a law of nature, but capitalism is a socially constructed system, no more "eternal" or "natural" or a "law of nature" than feudalism. Your view is just an ideological conceit.

"And what you are getting is a broken, impoverished despotic nation."

Yes, a capitalist nation.

I wonder how Nulli is able to function in life.

"And what you are getting is a broken, impoverished despotic nation."

Yes, a capitalist nation.

Posted by nullifidian

Soviet Union, Communist China, North Korea, Cuba are capitalist nations?

Evolution is a law of nature, but capitalism is a socially constructed system, no more "eternal" or "natural" or a "law of nature" than feudalism. Your view is just an ideological conceit.

The laws of nature are an ideological conceit? Both capitalism AND socialism are socially constructed systems. The difference is that the former requires a high degree of social cooperation and coordination. The latter is constructed to live off the former.

Socialism without capitalism requires an oppressive central authority that is incapable of replacing the actions of individuals acting in their own interests. If you work WITH the laws of nature, you build. If you work against them, you destroy. Which explains why capitalist nations are wealthy and socialist nations are poor.

As the US sinks into a severe depression, do not fall into the trap of blaming free market capitalism. These are the symptoms of the heavy hand of government interference that has disrupted the free market process. The heavier the hand, the worse this Depression will get.

The middle class is an unnatural construct formed by government retrictions on business and socialism.

Without government intervention you will have the wealthy, poor peasants and a thin layer of merchants/specialized professionals to support the wealthy. The Jews occupied this last sector in Europe since they stuck together out of necessity and could pull together capital from many sources to create going concerns. The peasants hated the Jews since they were jealous of them

This is how Europe existed for many years before the empires fell in WW1. Out of this grew socialism and communism due to the horrible lives your average person was living as a direct result of the industrial revolution that was making the wealthy enormously rich. And of course you should remember the labor uprisings in the US that formed the unions and forced FDR the assume a socialist form of government to protect your average person against the harshness of capitalism.

But no the Libertarians are mostly clueless little boys who have not concept of history or the way the world works. Many are little computer geeks who think everything will just work fine if people are left alone by authority figures. they even have a working "methodology" called Agile programming that removes management control over projects. This creates feudal projects by the way where the most dominant programmer controls the work.

Heavy stuff Furio, the output of a confused mind.

Without government intervention you will have the wealthy, poor peasants and a thin layer of merchants/specialized professionals to support the wealthy.

You are describing what we see in socialist nations. They have no middle class.

Out of this grew socialism and communism due to the horrible lives your average person was living as a direct result of the industrial revolution that was making the wealthy enormously rich.

Those were the early days of capitalism when employers had a surplus of labor to choose from. They didn't have to compete for employees which would require them to improve working conditions. The poor in Victorian England had the choice to stay on the farm and starve or go to the city. Marx wrongly predicted permanent poverty among the masses. Working conditions improved as national wealth increased. England became the wealthiest most powerful nation in Europe.

But no the Libertarians are mostly clueless little boys who have not concept of history or the way the world works.

Laughably absurd. Everywhere you look, nations impoverish themselves to the degree they adopt socialism. Socialism doesn't work because it discourages people to be productive.
I have yet to see a socialist who understands how capitalism works. From my experience with Nulli, I don't think they want to know how capitalism works. Or how markets produce wealth for that matter.

Simple question to prove my point. What is the cause of inflation?

***** Everywhere you look, nations impoverish themselves to the degree they adopt socialism.... RAY ****

....then Sweden, Canada, Norway and about a dozen other countries have a HIGHER standard of living than the U.S. because..... ??.....

......contrary to what your opinion, an intelligent mix of social policies and capitalism, has been shown to provide a higher standard of living than pure capitalism can provide alone....

"You are describing what we see in socialist nations. They have no middle class."

Ray you fucking moron. As Skizziks puts it you have a tremdnous middle class in socialist countries. The only exceptions are some of the new democracies in central europe where libertarian ideals of grab what you can effect the government and the economy.

If your basic health needs are served along with the education of your children and basic pension then life becomes pretty easy. Additional rules about employment termination, incapicitation and maternal leave make life really livable.

You have never lived in European socialist country I assume. You have no idea what you are talking about. Let me guess are you single, so far healthy, make a little more than average and therefore think you can cover yourself easily?

"Working conditions improved as national wealth increased. England became the wealthiest most powerful nation in Europe."

FUCKING IDIOT!!! The UK is a socialist country. Free education and basic healthcare. It isn't perfect but it supplies the basics.

People are getting wealthy all over Europe. Just because you have Socialism doesn't mean you can't make money. It means the country and its individuals have fiscal responsibility to the well being of everyone. While the income tax rates are high in general the corporate tax, capital gains and dividend taxes are quite low. In some cases lower than the US.

Ray, you are one clueless fuck.

Oh and all these "Socialist" countries have a longer life expectancy, happiness quotient and stand of living than the US.

"Socialism doesn't work because it discourages people to be productive."

Who says so?

Skizziks

I said "to the degree..."

You have to produce wealth first before you can redistribute it. To the degree you encourage the production of wealth you will become wealthier. To the degree you confiscate wealth from the producers, the more you discourage the production of wealth. This is just basic human nature.

What those nations have in common is that they don't have the massively expensive military empire this nation has.

The question of what is an intelligent mix of social policies and capitalism is undefinable. What I see of socialism, is that once it takes root, it eventually bankrupts a nation as it reaches the point of excess. It's only a matter of time before Sweden, Canada and Norway go bankrupt. One similar country, Iceland, is sinking fast. A comparison between North and South Korea is another case example.

Who says so?

Posted by furio

Would you spend the time to learn a skill and work hard if you knew it made no difference to how much you were compensated? This is fundamental to human nature. The Soviets couldn't make their farm system work, so the allowed farmers to keep small plots for themselves.

It's stunning how you think you can subvert human nature.

"What those nations have in common is that they don't have the massively expensive military empire this nation has.

The question of what is an intelligent mix of social policies and capitalism is undefinable. What I see of socialism, is that once it takes root, it eventually bankrupts a nation as it reaches the point of excess. It's only a matter of time before Sweden, Canada and Norway go bankrupt. One similar country, Iceland, is sinking fast. A comparison between North and South Korea is another case example."

Please provide examples of bakrupt socialist countries other than the old USSR which was communist.

Currently almost all of the socialist countries you mentioned have lower account deficits than the US or account surpluses. As for Iceland they screwed up because of providing bad loans through their banks. A total aggressive capitalist approach. the only thing saving them currently are socialist programs such as powering the country off of geo-thermal sources and tourism.

Canada is far better off economically than the US.

The US has a big military to support its global business empire and simply to fund the defense industry in the US. It's NOT so big to defend the US and its citizenes.

"Would you spend the time to learn a skill and work hard if you knew it made no difference to how much you were compensated?"

I live in Europe now. I get paid more than I would in the US because I have rare skills developed over my career. You have no fucking idea what you are talking about Ray. You have no idea what Socialism is or means.

***** The question of what is an intelligent mix of social policies and capitalism is undefinable. *****

......not really.....I don't have all morning to educate you...but...just by measuring the empirical results....you can measure what works and what does not work......

**** What I see of socialism, is that once it takes root, it eventually bankrupts a nation as it reaches the point of excess. It's only a matter of time before Sweden, Canada and Norway go bankrupt. ******

......to the country, Canada runs an annual budget surplus and has CUT federal taxes three years running......Norway also runs huge surpluses.....alas , our badly managed capitalist US is going deeper into debt to such a great degree that our debt is causing our currency to sink......this is not happening in the socialist western Europe....the empirical evidence is the rise of the Euro against the dollar.....

****One similar country, Iceland, is sinking fast. *****

........ I am not familiar with Iceland so I cannot make an intelligent comment

****A comparison between North and South Korea is another case example.*****

.....no its not really.....North Korea is a simple dictatorship masquerading as a Marxist-Leninist system......but it is a simple one man dictatorship....nothing else......

......and South Korea....by US standards is also a socialist country....with public health care, unemployment insurance, and welfare that is on par with Western Europe and Canada......

......you are really not very knowledgable about how other countries live, or how well they are doing, or what services they feel that their citizens deserve......

.......read more......learn more......talk less.....

Ray, you are one clueless fuck.

Posted by furio at 2008-06-01 08:52 AM

I was trying to keep this polite, but if you want to be an asshole, I can play that game too.

I asked a simple question about inflation to prove what a half wit you are and you ignored my question.

How is wealth produced? You don't know.

What is the difference between money and wealth? You don't know.
All you are doing is making a lot of noise.

I rest my case as to who is the clueless fuck.

**** I rest my case as to who is the clueless fuck.

Posted by Ray *****

.....its kind of obvious that its you Ray.......

.....like I said.....read more......talk less....

"How is wealth produced? You don't know."

Real simple Ray you accumulate the labor of others. This is either directly by employing them or indirectly through receipt of labor in return for a service or product. The "receipt of labor" is now generally currency.

The only other way to make wealth is through property/natrual resources and their subsequent apprecitation.

The rich are getting rich off contracting the labor of others but they pay far less in taxes than what the laborer needs to pay.

Very, very few people get rich off the product of their own labor. Even professionals such as doctors and lawyers need supporting teams to maximize their earning potential.

the empirical evidence is the rise of the Euro against the dollar.....

Both the euro and the dollar are falling relative to commodities. I keep asking what causes inflation and I get no answers.

read more......learn more......talk less..

Been reading a few hours every day for fifty years. Have a large library of books on philosophy, history, science, language, economics. You're not in my class.

You're just another ignoramus who doesn't understand what he is looking at. No point in refuting your silly rationalizations. The one on the differences between North and South Korea is laughable. Enough on this thread.

Ray you are an ignorant man living in a dream world. You have no concept how the world works or the inherent evilness and cruelty in the greed of others. I would think seeing the history of WW1, WW2, Stalin, Communist China, USA, Rawanda, South Africa, Israel, etc would have taught you that. Religion is a very inefficient mean to control the dark side of human nature which is why governments have gotten stronger and in socialism protects the rights and quality of life for all it's citizens. Even China is changing and putting employment laws in place due to rampant abuse by business owners.

The neo-cons were naive to use a combination of religion and government as a control and are failing miserably.

The Libertarians want to remove all control both religion and government. If this happened life would turn into a living hell.

Real simple Ray you accumulate the labor of others. This is either directly by employing them or indirectly through receipt of labor in return for a service or product. The "receipt of labor" is now generally currency.

The Labor Theory of Value is obsolete. It doesn't explain human valuation and how societies coordinate their utilization of resources. You are still a clueless fuck.

"Both the euro and the dollar are falling relative to commodities. I keep asking what causes inflation and I get no answers."

You dumb cunt. Commodities are rising as a simple result of supply and demand. What the fuck are you trying to prove with this?

In relative terms the dollar has dropped in half against against the euro from it's peak. This has caused oil, etc to be far more expensive in dollar terms rather than euro. Think about it dickhead. An once of gold now goes for $800. If the dollar was as strong as it was back in 2000 it would only cost $400. In euro terms gold has not gone up much at all. Oil is the same way.

You're a scary guy, Furio.

You have no concept how the world works or the inherent evilness and cruelty in the greed of others.

All I do on this site is argue against the dangers of political power. It brings out the worst in people as your examples illustrate. You seem to have this mindset that people go into politics to become angels.

The Libertarians want to remove all control both religion and government.

We are sensitive to oppression, religious, political or any other kind. You certainly can't blame libertarians for the state of hell we are now in.

"The Labor Theory of Value is obsolete."

That's not what I was referring to fucktard. While "commodities" may appreciate higher than the value of labor put into them they still require inherent labor to produce. Labor does not equate the resultant commodity but is still the most critical part of production. also labor produces the wealth in order to purchase the subsequent commodity.

TO make it simple for someone who only took eco101 I will give an example. If an entrepreneur has an idea for widgets and needs a factory to produce them. He will need to:

--get a loan which funded by a bank and its depositors who need to labor to create the deposits.

--build a factory with said loan which will require workers to labor on.

--staff the factory with laborers to produce the widgets.

--sell to laborers who pay in wealth directly replated to their labor.

Every step along the way is directly based upon the labor of others

The current debt crises was created because the valuation of property (in all its forms) has gotten way out of proportion with the fundamental labor able to support it and the currency to buy it. Speculation gone wild.

Ray are you still in college or just a couple of years out?

You dumb cunt. Commodities are rising as a simple result of supply and demand. What the fuck are you trying to prove with this?

Holy shit! I knew you were totally ignorant on the cause of inflation. I'll try to keep this explanation simple on a child's level so I don't go over your head.

All the nations of the world are running on a central banking system. The central banks create new money to finance the government deficits for the social programs you so love. The excess of money drives down the purchasing power of money, in effect causing prices to rise. This has been going on since the Federal Reserve was created. Inflation didn't just happen in recent years.

All your insults don't change the fact of your total ignorance on economic theory.

"You certainly can't blame libertarians for the state of hell we are now in."

No Ray we are not in hell. Far, far from it. You want hell go back to the fall of the Ottoman and Autro-Hunarian Empires. That has produced hell. But then their demise was caused by the growth of capitalism and easy loans. Basic Libertarianism gone wild after the Industrial revolution and the subsequent years. Shit the Rothschilds pretty much set up their own holocaust by revolutionizing the debt market. You can't fight a war without easy debt.

Gee Ray you haven't been following the energy demands of China and India much have you? Of course there is also the factor that oil is becoming more and more difficult to produce. Food prices are going up mostly due to increase in oil prices and the ethanol subsidies in the US.

And di[pshit I think I already mentioned the drop in the dollar. The euro has not fallen. You didn't read my post shittard. You also are following standard Libertarian mantra in describing the current problems.

The Euro zone has none of the currency problems the US has.

Simple supply and demand you stupid cunt.

Every step along the way is directly based upon the labor of others

He still has to calculate on whether he can sell his product to cover his costs plus a small profit. The problem with government intervention is that it distorts market prices causing bad calculations.

Ray are you still in college or just a couple of years out?

65 and well read in Austrian Theory among other subjects. That's why my explanations see strange to you. Our current economic problems are a direct result of flawed mainstream theory.

I will tell you upfront, no fiat money system has ever worked. We are in the last stages of the total collapse of the dollar, the euro and all the other fiat currencies. You probably don't see it.

I find libertarians generally shit disturbers with no real solutions or ideas..all the libertarians around here in NC couldn't collectively scrape enough brains together to make a singular construct human much less run the government..

Why the fuck would anyone desire to vote in someone that that has a disdain and general hatred of government?

Libertarianism is the opposite extreme of communism..both can go quietly into the night.

My fuck you to Huckabee is because he is a tool not because his ideas towards libertarianism are incorrect.

"Can one be an American an be a member of the American NAZI Party, YES they can!!!
Can one be an American an be a member of the KKK, YES they can!!!
Can one be an American an be a member of the Communist Party, YES they can!!!"

Posted by celisary

Having a penis only makes one male, but not a man.

One may live in the United States, possess citizenship, but this does not make one an American.

Be an American? Most people in the US couldn't handle being an American. The would require forethought, personal responsibility, non-reliance on Big Bro to wipe your butt, reduce the government down to only those essentials as listed in the US Consitution, leaving people the hell alone to lead their lives as they desire and not stick your nose into their private business.

Most people living in the US are decidedly not American.

Canada is far better off economically than the US.

Sure they are, but not for the reasons you say.. Canada has a 10th of the population, more natural resources, annual trade surpluses, small military, etc..

Furio, your arguments, while seemingly intelligent, are wrong. Wrong because you are oversimplifying everything you say. And for someone that lives in Europe, you must still be quite an outsider. When I lived there, I found Europeans to be very discontent with their government and policies. They hate the high taxes, hate waiting for days to see a doctor, hate paying for supposedly free health care, hate the EU, hate the Euro coins themselves, hate the increasing big brother atmosphere, etc.. Do you ever get out and talk to anyone???

Like Ray said, the socialist countries such as Sweden et al, aren't going to survive the long haul. But then neither are we if we continue on our present course.

Furio.. It is also intellectually repugnant to blame our current problems on libertarian ideals that haven't been practiced AT ALL in well over 100 years. The problems of this country are the direct result of abandoning those principles. And if you need an example of a country that has embraced many libertarian ideals, one only needs to look at the success that Switzerland has had (although they are beginning to throw it away to socialism). Other countries with more than average libertarian climates such as Bahamas, Estonia, Costa Rica, New Zealand, and others seem to do quite well also.

But whatever.. Freedom isn't for everyone I guess.

I"f we tried to follow what the Libertarians want we would be ruined quickly.

The Libertarians want to remove all protections provided citizens by the government. The only recourse left would be to use a lawsuit in the court system.

Then the Libertarians will take that away from you as well with something they call TORT REFORM.

Would take away my protections against criminals, corporations and polluters. No thank you to the 'LIBERTISTS' They do not represent American Liberty.

They ideas are un American. Too bad it was a fringe wierdo like Huckabee who has to speak the truth here but hey tip of the hat to him."

Posted by Monstman

That's right. The Constitution of the United States of America is just a piece of paper.

I find libertarians generally shit disturbers with no real solutions or ideas..all the libertarians around here in NC couldn't collectively scrape enough brains together to make a singular construct human much less run the government..

As long as Libertarians aren't blamed for the shit-mess you statists created. Ignore us and treat us with contempt and suffer for it.

"Furio.. It is also intellectually repugnant to blame our current problems on libertarian ideals that haven't been practiced AT ALL in well over 100 years. The problems of this country are the direct result of abandoning those principles"

Actually you are completely wrong JS. First off the Depression was created by Libertarianism pure and simple. Tax rate were lowered to something like 10%. As a result FDR implemented socialist reforms. Libertarianism came back strong under Reagan. The 80's and early 90's were very hard on the working stiff but the wealthy got...more wealthy. The mid-late 90's were a period of amazing growth due to having no cometition in the world, tech boom and the crash in asia. So your avergae schmuck did well since there was actually a serious labor shortage. The wealthy got amazingly wealthy.

The funny thing is the US economy is very Libertarian in ways now. Social Security is seriously capped. Taxes are historically very low and aside from bare minimum social programs for welfare and medicade everyone has to pay for their own shit. There is virtually no redistribution going on. Taxes are only going to items that help the rich. Military support of the American Empire. Infrastructure (lower than before). Revitilization of urban areas for real estate developers. and so forth.

Yeah the government runs a serious deficit but the rich love that since the deficit is basically a loan against the output (GDP) of the US which they mostly own anyway. So the wealthy can easily get returns of 10%+ on any investment they make what do they care about a roughtly -3% deficit spending as against having their taxes raised by 10%?

what do you want to remove? It's almost all gone. You are just crying about paying a little bit of tax when the wealthy have gotten everything. Very foolish of you

"Simple supply and demand you stupid cunt.

That explains no more than saying God did it. Currency is not a neutral player as you seem to think."

Ray you stupid shit I already mentioned the dollar drop as a reason why there is inflation in the US. But the high demand and limited supply of oil is driving the current inflationary trends and will continue for the future. food production is completely dependent on oil prices.

All you fucktard Libertarians think about is that the currency should be gold backed which is a complete farce. There isn't enough gold supply in the entire world to even convert the dollars in circulation. The currency devaluation is just one thing going on right now. The failing debt market is a much bigger problem. The high demand/prices for oil is far bigger since the whole world economy is currently based on cheap oil.

You are fucking clueless as usual.

Seriously Libertarians are just geeks who don't take in social and psychological consideration into how society functions in conjunction with economics.

Here's a nice paper on the effect of Libertarianism on society www.law.nyu.edu/clep/papers07/
chapter9.pdf

"Mystery of Banking" So that's what you a reading Ray? It gives an amatuer view of the origins of banking and then cherry picks specifics from every historical fiscal event to press the need for a gold standard.

At least start reading the Economist to begin to get an understanding what is happening in the world.

*** You're just another ignoramus who doesn't understand what he is looking at..... Ray. ****

.......sorry Ray.......I lived in Europe for 8 years......

......you don't seem to have left your trailer-park in a while.....

.......any one who has traveled understands that there are countries that have a higher standard of living than here in the US......and that higher standard is the result of a wise mixture of socialist and capitalist systems.......

.......thats a wisdom that we as a nation...and you as an individual.....have not acquired.......

Hey Skizziks, you think Ray is shitting gold bricks becuase he bought at over $1000 an ounce thinking it's going to $2000 like all the gold bulls kept yelling?

Ray, you are going to lose money on gold. You seem to foget during the last currency/oil crisis in the late 70's how much gold climbed and then dropped.

and yes this means after the credit crisis stabilizes and the liquidity issues vanish dollar interest rates will climb steeply as the credit market becomes far more conservative. Just like the early 80s

Furio

I picked a book that was suited to your limitations and you still find something to complain about. There are more extensive books but since you are an asshole, there is no point in suggesting other titles.

I read economic and political news every day. The Economist is just another clueless mainstream source.

Here's it in a nutshell:

Fractional reserve banking never works.
Central banking never works.
Fiat money never works.
Money is not wealth.

The whole idea that some group of elites can manage a world economy without fucking it up is childishly stupid and simple minded.
So you continue to believe that government officials are wise and all knowing as the world economy collapses in inflation and depression. I'll go for the gold.

"The Economist is just another clueless mainstream source.

Here's it in a nutshell:

Fractional reserve banking never works.
Central banking never works.
Fiat money never works.
Money is not wealth."

The first sign of utter ignorance is to assume everyone is stupid and doesn't get it. That you are the only who sees the real truth.

Ray, you are so clueless. You are going to lose a shitload of money on the gold you bought in the last year. The only publications you read are the clown blogs devoted to libertarianism and the gold standard. Fool.

Furio

Ray, you are going to lose money on gold. You seem to foget during the last currency/oil crisis in the late 70's how much gold climbed and then dropped.

You've been such a prick, you don't deserve the education I'm giving you.

The imbalances are magnitudes more severe than they were in the seventies. The Federal Government is piling unmanageable amounts of debt. Massive default is inevitable.
Since the creation of the Federal Reserve, the dollar has lost 98% of it's value. If you understood Austrian theory and history, you would know that a severe collapse of the dollar and our economy is inevitable, probably within ten years. That's one reason commodities are rising so fast.

I just gave you four inviolable facts backed by history. Check them out for yourself.

You've been scared off from trusting tangible assets like gold into trusting financial assets. Hang around here in the months to come and we'll see who is the fool.

Ray,

You have no clue. The dollar is valued against the current GDP, future growth, current account deficit, future account deficit and prime interest rate among other things. It can't collapse unless the US is unable to produce. You need a continent wide catastrophe or civil war to disrupt the US economy to cause a dollar collapse due to defaulting on Tbills and mass GDP decline. You have a juvenile, simplistic view of things.

Commodities are rising fast simply due to oil demand you idiot. Gold is harder to find requiring more energy to drill deeper and refine more raw material. Duh.

You are going to lose far more than your current 20% loss on gold.

Posted by skizziks at 2008-06-01 12:50 PM

So you've lived around the world. So what? You have to understand theory and history to know what you are looking at. Otherwise it's all noise.

Just basic logic alone should tell you that you have to produce before you can consume. Mainstream theory has it ass backwards. Now we're a nation of consumers hopelessly in debt and going poor fast.

"I find libertarians generally shit disturbers with no real solutions or ideas.."

Our government is fucking us. Possilbe solutions? Reduce the power of the government.

It is clearly an idea.

Its just one that doesn't appeal to your personal sensibilities.

"rejects the cultural norms and sanctions on personal behavior that make a society work."

Are societal norms determined by society at large or the few who can afford to run for major office?

Furio

The dollar CAN collapse and it will, I estimate within ten years. It's happened before at other times for the same reasons we are seeing now.

Paper money always goes to its intrinsic value of zero. I can't convince you. You'll have to learn the hard way.

Ray,

Mark my words you will be shitting gold bricks by the end of the year. Gold will be below $700 an ounce. The IMF and some governments are now making plans to unload significant amounts of gold. You my friend are going to be poor soon. Gold is the next housing crash.

There are going to be a lot of poor Marxists and wealthy Austrians. Can't say the didn't deserve it.

Furio

Oh are we friends now? Chew on this:

The Biggest Debt Beat Of All:

To see this is like watching the edge of an expanding black hole in interstellar space, but this is a financial hole on the verge of swallowing an entire nation. The federal government's long-term financial obligations grew by $US 2.5 TRILLION last year, a reflection of the exploding costs of Medicare and Social Security benefits as more baby boomers reach retirement age. As reported in a USA Today analysis, American taxpayers are on the hook for a record $US 57.3 TRILLION in federal liabilities to cover the lifetime benefits of everyone eligible for Medicare, Social Security and other government programs. That's $US 500,000 per household. When the liabilities of State and local governments are added to this, the total rises to $US 61.7 TRILLION. That's $US 531,472 per household, more than four times what Americans owe in personal debt and mortgages. This is now front page news on USA Today.

The financial consequences for investors can be severe. For example, the Dow Jones Industrial Index, against which many investment returns are measured, closed at a nominal high of 14,093 on October 12, 2007. The media reported it as a sign of good things to come. On May 23, 2008, the Dow closed at 12,480 -- off a bit, but apparently not too bad. However, the Dow close of 12,480, if adjusted for the official CPI, is worth not 12,480, but only 9,856 when compared with its previous market cycle high, of 11,723, in the year 2000.

Worse still, if adjusted for the more reasonable, but conservative, inflation rate of 8 percent, the recent close of 12,480 becomes the equivalent of only 6,742 in the year 2000. What looks like a nominal gain of some 757 points or 6.4 percent is, in fact, a real loss of 4,981 points or some 42 percent over those eight years!

The IMF and some governments are now making plans to unload significant amounts of gold.

Central banks have been doing that for decades and they are getting scared, starting to bluff. If they do, it presents a bargain as it is now. Silver has been kept artificially low, the best bargain of all.

Yes Ray that is a direct result of Reagan massively cutting Social Security contributions. A Libertarian act. Social Security was put in place since it was realized typical Libertarian predatory capitalist business practices were eliminating personal savings so there needed to be a safety net or the US would face a horrible humanitarian crisis as its elderly starved to death and would not afford any medical care after having spent a lifetime of contributing to the economy of the US.

What is really "un-American" in the idealized sense that Huckabee meant it is the way most people reflexively attack any idea that isn't fed to them by one of the two corrupt political organizations to whom they've pledge unthinking loyalty.

Allowing any one narrow group of people, Libertarian or otherwise, to aquire too much power would be a disaster. We learned that again recently with the Republicans. Ideally, we wouldn't be voting for parties but rather people with ideas. Realistically, we should support many parties that are then forced to work with one another and compromise intelligently in the best interests of all.

Unfortunatley, being an unthinking hack whose political "ideas" are really just pre-programmed knee-jerk reactions has become very American. That is why we are enthusiastically voting for people who are leading us down the shitter while reserving our anger for those who want to offer alternatives.

Oh please! SS and Medicare were Ponzi Schemes from the beginning. They seemed to work for as long as the population of young increased faster then the retiree population. It was sold as insurance when in effect it was old age welfare.

BTW I started collecting last month. Plan to until it stops. Guess where I'm spending it?

I love that phrase "libertarian predatory capitalist business practices." The history of this country does not record any such humanitarian crisis which you so wildly exaggerate. That could change as our economy collapses.

As long as Libertarians aren't blamed for the shit-mess you statists created. Ignore us and treat us with contempt and suffer for it.

Posted by Ray

we wont suffer.. hope you are well armed! If it does happen like you state believe me you wont have gold, silver or anything of value for long. A mad maxx world makes you a victim too.

.......any one who has traveled understands that there are countries that have a higher standard of living than here in the US......and that higher standard is the result of a wise mixture of socialist and capitalist systems.......


yep! I have always espoused a proper portion of both to properly manage society.

people forget the disaster that was the 19th century had a huge portion of Libertarianism sprinkled in..

everything from child slavery to 3 great depressions all with a gold backed currency.

"people forget the disaster that was the 19th century had a huge portion of Libertarianism sprinkled in..

everything from child slavery to 3 great depressions all with a gold backed currency."


*Sigh*. The good old days.

Sincerely,
Ray

Actually you are completely wrong JS. First off the Depression was created by Libertarianism pure and simple. Tax rate were lowered to something like 10%.

Sorry, I am afraid that you are again incorrect. Libertarianism in the country ended when the elite bankers took over and created their federal reserve. THAT is what lead to the Great Depression and is what WILL lead to the greater depression..

what do you want to remove? It's almost all gone. You are just crying about paying a little bit of tax when the wealthy have gotten everything. Very foolish of you

A little bit of tax? Americans pay 50-60% of their income in taxes.. If you believe that this is what the forefathers had in mind, then you are a complete fool only worthy of ignoring. And many of those tax dollars have filtered to the elite and are partially responsible for the income gap we have and have certainly played a role in keeping the middle class in their place. And what are we getting for our taxes? War, empire, waste, pork, bloated government. Do you really believe that the federal government should be the largest employwer in the country? It is amazing that you can be so condescending with ridiculous beliefs like this.