Looks like the committee will have legal guidelines.

IMO they should seat Florida at 50%, proportionally to the actual vote since that was about as level a playing field as could be expected.

MI should be seated at 50% of the compromise split that has been suggested. I think it was 58 Clinton, 49 Obama, or something close to that.

So are we only gonna have 1/2 of our delegates?

C'mon, even slaves were counted as 3/5!

Give me a break!

[3/5 is more thant 1/2 for those of you in Rio Linda]

"So are we only gonna have 1/2 of our delegates?"

I think more likely would be that FL and MI send all of their delegates but each vote from those states will count as 1/2.

wow!

What people don't know is hillary is the chair of the committee, so wonder how this is going to go.

Perhaps FL and MI should be allowed to send twice as many delegates as they were originally allotted and each delegate's vote counts for 1/4 of a vote. Beyond that, well, the math gets pretty staggering and I'd be hesitant to make a move without Vernon's calculator.

The trial failed because people didn't buy the new (larger) burger. Apparently when they saw the "3" in one third,,, they determined the "3" to be less than the "4" in quarter pounder... and so consumers wouldn't pay MORE for a burger they perceived as having LESS meat. Go figure...
~ OOHRAH

Yes indeed, I don't think many are surprised.

Another reason we should have gone metric years ago. The metric system is much more intuitive then our system.

All of this still leaves Hill with to few votes.

WTF does she want?

At this point she can't think she can really win..

Zap,


Maybe she's trying to win in the popular vote.

Gore won the popular vote in 2000 but lost in electoral votes. Maybe she feels that she can sway a bunch of supers as the Democratic voting base clamored for an elimination of the electoral voting system in 2000, when the results were inconvenient.

Sitdown

I love the last line of the article

Clinton's supporters have every right to demonstrate on Saturday, of course. But their larger cause is neither democracy nor feminism; it's situational ethics. To insist otherwise is to degrade democracy and turn feminism into the last refuge of scoundrels.

Clinton's supporters have every right to demonstrate on Saturday, of course. But their larger cause is neither democracy nor feminism; it's situational ethics. To insist otherwise is to degrade democracy and turn feminism into the last refuge of scoundrels.

She is in "By any means necessary mode".

Not loudly but I think I've made it clear I will be voting for either one once the dust clears.

I was not negative toward her until recently. I wonder if she realizes she has poisoned the her well for future runs. If Obama loses Hill will take the her share of the rap. A sizable portion.

Above for Jeff

According to the Snuffalufagus, its not going to matter much anyway:

"The Democratic primary war will end within days of next week's final primary votes when 'several dozen' superdelegates will end their silence and endorse Sen. Barack Obama, ABC's chief political correspondent George Stephanopoulos reported Tuesday.

When asked by 'Good Morning America' what the chances are of Sen. Hillary Clinton continuing her fight for the nomination into the Democrats' August convention, Stephanopoulos replied, 'Zero.'"

Why do you think she wants the FULL delegations seated? Clinton intends to continue this war all the way to the convention unless she gets her way. That's also why she's thinking about "campaigning in June."

SOMETHING MIGHT HAPPEN!

So now we're down to a "shot in the dark" mode.

While watching that HBO movie Recount, I would occasionally smile when some actor playing a Democrat in the movie would tell a Florida resident they were going to make sure their votes count... LOL... what a difference 7 years makes...

So now we're down to a "shot in the dark" mode

and you're too late

baby, you give democracy a bad name

I fucked up the lyrics, but screw it. it's just Bon Jovi

This whole fiasco reminds me of playing touch football with girls in high school.

They kept changing the rules until they won.

We didn't really care, as long as we got to touch the girls below the waist.

Well maybe we should count democrat votes in Florida and Michigan in the general election as 1/2 vote also.

That shouldn't bother Obama, Dean, Kennedy and the like since disenfranchising voters seems to be the flavor of the day.


Bee Swell

Question is would YOU want to touch Hellary below the waist Silver Ironist??

Larry Mohr

I hope that the people in MI and FL are heard. But if their votes are not counted there is at least one bright side to it: The Democrats will never, ever, have the right to bitch about uncounted votes in 2000 again!

(here come the flurries of "But the 2000 election was different!")

disenfranchising voters seems to be the flavor of the day.

Florida and Michigan disenfranchised themselves.

Bee Gone

This is where You are wrong yet again Goatman. In 2000 they did not move up the date of the general election like they did for the Democratic Primary in 2008. Violating the rules set up by the DNC. Since the Florida Democratic people violated the rules their votes should not count. As for 2000 however every vote should have counted because no rules were violated.

Larry Mohr

. As for 2000 however every vote should have counted because no rules were violated.

So you are saying that just because a handful of party executives broke a rule, millions of voters should not be heard? That's fucked up, Larry.

Every vote should be counted in 2008, too, but it looks like the democrats themselves (not the supreme court!) is not going to allow it.

The Democrats are hypocrites.

Florida and Michigan disenfranchised themselves.

Thanks for the correction. I thought it was a few executives in the party. I did not realize that millions of voters did it to themselves, whatsleft

Looks like to Me Goatman just doesn't believe in following the rules.

Larry Mohr

Florida Democratic people violated

And we have a few of them on this blog.

Shame on you, Danni for allowing this to happen! According to Larry and whatsleft it is partially your fault.

(here come the flurries of "But the 2000 election was different!")

Obviously you know how radically different they are or you wouldn't have posed it that way.

There is no obligation to even hold an election to pick a nominee by a party. All the rules for selecting a candidate are created by the respective parties. Hence all the Democratic cacauses. Even the GOP took half the delegates New Hampshire, Florida, South Carolina, Michigan and Wyoming.

I hope that the people in MI and FL are heard. But if their votes are not counted there is at least one bright side to it: The Democrats will never, ever, have the right to bitch about uncounted votes in 2000 again!

Apples and oranges, apples and oranges, people! Every vote that is in compliance with DNC rules, established well before the first primary vote was cast, will be counted.

The Republiacans have screwed things up so badly over the last seven years that they have to expend all of their energy knocking down the opposition.

Have you people stopped to take a look at your candidate? Not exactly the second coming of Abe Lincoln...even though they were born around the same time!

Looks like to Me Goatman just doesn't believe in following the rules.

Yes I do, larry. But correct me if I'm wrong: Isn't one of the rules that everyone's vote gets to be counted? I think that's in the US Constitution somewhere.

Looks like to Me Goatman just doesn't believe in following the rules.

Looks to me that Larry doesn't believe everyone's vote should be heard.

So we can put you on the "Everyone's vote shouldn't necessarily count" list, Yav?

Goatman-
Why do you intentionally lie about what's "in the US Constitution" regarding political parties and their nomination processes?

And also on the "Everyone's vote shouldn't necessarily count" we can add realpatriot. (sort of a misnomer who doesn't believe all votes should be counted.)

Yes I do, larry. But correct me if I'm wrong: Isn't one of the rules that everyone's vote gets to be counted? I think that's in the US Constitution somewhere.

Posted by goatman


I don't believe my vote for American Idol was counted. Should I go to the Supreme Court Goatman?

Isn't one of the rules that everyone's vote gets to be counted? I think that's in the US Constitution somewhere.

The Constitution is just a goddamn piece of paper!

Hey when the bosses of the Florida Democratic Party break the rules those under them must suffer just the same as those bosses in business when they too break the rules and the company makes everyone suffer. If the Democrats down in Florida don't like it I am sure they can hire(Vote) in people who WILL follow the rules. I would hazzard a guess that during basic when someone fucks up the whole unit suffers for it. What is the difference here??

Larry Mohr

Why do you intentionally lie about what's "in the US Constitution"

???

WTF are you talking about? What lie?

Democrats: 2 states.
Republicans: 5 states.

You want to cry hypocrisy? Look at your own party.

I can't say what happened in Michigan, but I know what happened in Florida. The same GOP mentality that cut delegates in half in 5 states ran rampant in Florida. The GOP controlled FL Legislature, the veto by the GOP Governor pushed this mess. Not just once either. There was constant rejection by both the Legislature and Governor of every Democratic proposal to bring the election into compliance with the DNC rules. They'd have nothing to do with messing up their plans for the GOP primary. They got their wish, and half the GOP delegates.

I don't believe my vote for American Idol was counted. Should I go to the Supreme Court Goatman?

What -- and sit on the steps or something? I really don't think the SC will listen to American Idol arguements.

WTF are you talking about? What lie?

You've seriously confused the General Election, the Constitution and Primaries.

Oh and I would declare that since this was the Democratic Party rules the US Constitution has NOTHING to do with this since it is a "Private" organization and not on the level as a State or Federal Election. Just like if say the Teamsters had elections they could make any rules that they wanted to and the US Constitution has no say in the matter. Please do so ever try yet again Goatman.

Larry Mohr

Hey when the bosses of the Florida Democratic Party break the rules those under them must suffer just the same as those bosses in business when they too break the rules and the company makes everyone suffer.


It's OK, Larry. You are on the "Everyone's vote shouldn't necessarily count" list. You don't have to justify it.

Look at your own party.

I don't have a party.

"But correct me if I'm wrong: Isn't one of the rules that everyone's vote gets to be counted? I think that's in the US Constitution somewhere.

Posted by goatman"

I think you probably already know and are just playing ignorant to fan the flames a bit more. But Presidential primary elections are not governed by the same laws as general elections. That's why courts have consistently held, right up to today, that parties have the right to create and enforce their own rules for them.

I'm sorry, Goatman. I guess you weren't lying. You would have to know what you were talking about in order to be lying.

I take it back.

Goatman, was the GOP wrong with their delegate awards for New Hampshire, Florida, South Carolina, Michigan and Wyoming?

The DNC may just have blown it big time.
They should have taken care of this matter awhile ago. Before the courts would not touch it.

Now it looks like the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals has decided to step in and take a look at the issue. If the courts take up this matter, it will be out of the hands of the DNC.

Here's the article.

5/27/08 The federal appeals court has agreed to hear oral arguments from a Hillsborough County man seeking to have Florida's Democratic presidential preference primary vote counted.

Vic DiMaio, a party activist in Hillsborough County, sued the Democratic National Committee over its decision to strip Florida of its delegates because its Jan. 29 primary was earlier than party rules allow.

Federal district court judge Richard A. Lazzara harshly dismissed the case in October, saying the suit was so flawed he wouldn't even let DiMaio amend it and try again. He said prior court rulings had made clear that political parties, as private entities, can set their own rules in selecting presidential candidates.

Now the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta is saying, not so fast. It wants to hear more after reading written pleadings. Federal appellate courts don't always take oral arguments.

You've seriously confused the General Election, the Constitution and Primaries.

I've confused nothing. I made the simple statement that I think everyone's vote should count. I've stated nothing more as a fact. Do not read too deeply into my posts, Yav. I say what I mean. I don't have deep, hidden messages in my post, so please don't try to extract any.

Just like if say the Teamsters

Well, I would say that the teamsters are not elected into a lawmaking and law executing position, but that would be wrong. *grin*

Oh and I would declare that since this was the Democratic Party rules the US Constitution has NOTHING to do with this since it is a "Private" organization and not on the level as a State or Federal Election.


LARRY A QUICK QUESTION....IF THESE POLITICAL PARTIES TAKE FEDERAL MONEY....THEN DONT THEY HAVE TO FOLLOW THE FEDERAL GUIDELINES....OR THE US CONSTITUTION

Goatman-
re: "But correct me if I'm wrong: Isn't one of the rules that everyone's vote gets to be counted? I think that's in the US Constitution somewhere."

You're wrong regarding the primary/causcus systems of political parties. Either you were being intentionally misleading, or you didn't know what you were talking about.

. But Presidential primary elections are not governed by the same laws as general elections.

I know. But nonetheless, I still think everyone's vote should be counted. Call me a starry eyed romantic, but I've always felt that way.

Got you on the "Everyone's vote shouldn't necessarily count", SAR. That list is growing quickly. Looks like I'm the odd man out here with the ridiculous notion that everyone's vote should be counted.

You would have to know what you were talking about in order to be lying.

What a surprise. It is betelg/kazak/cooper/boyd/
badweek to return with the first insulting innuendo instead of a valid argument.

CMBell73 No because just like the Republicans Democratic Party is a "Private" organization.

Larry Mohr

Goatman, was the GOP wrong with their delegate awards for New Hampshire, Florida, South Carolina, Michigan and Wyoming?

If it contradicted the will of the people and their voices were not accurately heard -- yes, of course.

larry....SO IS bASEBALL... BUT BASEBALL RECIEVE FEDERAL MONEY AND IS SUBJECT TO FEDERAL GUIDELINES....stop chasing ghost larry

"Got you on the 'Everyone's vote shouldn't necessarily count', SAR."

But I didn't say that, now did I? I simply gave you the facts on how courts have traditionally viewed and ruled on the subject, and why your Constitutional comment was off-base.

Goatman-
It's beyond disingenuous and risible that you would refer to an actual violation of the Constitution (the 2000 election) in the same breath with something that is not - and purely out of convenience to your ridiculous argument. For someone who's never issued a peep about the illegitimacy of the Bush Presidency, you must think the world starts anew with every breath you take.

But the Primary's are NOT electing into a Law Making or Law Executing positions. That is what GENERAL elections do.

Larry Mohr

But correct me if I'm wrong: Isn't one of the rules that everyone's vote gets to be counted?

You're wrong regarding the primary/causcus systems of political parties. Either you were being intentionally misleading, or you didn't know what you were talking about.

I was asking a question, belelg/coooper/boyd/badweek/
kazak. How is it wrong to ask a question? How can aksing a question be misleading? Get a grip man. I fuck up enough elsewhere that you don't have to berate me for asking a question. Choose your battles a little better.

But I didn't say that, now did I?

So you do think everyone's voice should be counted. Cool. I have company.

This matter will be settled by the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals. The DNC powers in control let this matter go on too long and get too out of control. The courts now will step in. The DNC will have to step out. The courts will decide and probably expedite their decision due to the necessity for having this settled prior to the general election.

Goatman-
If you weren't continuing to be misleading, then why did you crop the full quote:

"But correct me if I'm wrong: Isn't one of the rules that everyone's vote gets to be counted? I think that's in the US Constitution somewhere."

You stink so bad you hum.

I know. But nonetheless, I still think everyone's vote should be counted. Call me a starry eyed romantic, but I've always felt that way.
~Goat

Yes I agree, However they were warned before hand there would be a penalty.

If Michigan and Florida were able to flaunt the system, just this time. What would keep order next time?

As well Obama didn't appear on the ballot in Michigan. How do you address that vote count? He played by the rules.

Even letting half of them be seated is a bad precedent for future elections when states ignore the rules.

Republicans bend, break, ignore rules. Democrats shouldn't.

I'm done with your sophistry. The only question I have of you is "why?", and I can't really trust you to give an honest answer as to why you continue to shill for those who have done so much damage over the last eight years.

So, later on.

...violation of the Constitution...

The were no violations of the contstituion in 2000. The supreme court interprets the constitution and the said what happened in 2000 was OK. Ergo, no violation. In your eyes maybe it was, but you don't wear one of those robes, my multi-handled friend.

Looks like I'm the odd man out here with the ridiculous notion that everyone's vote should be counted.

They should, but when the people are told in ADVANCE that voting in THIS particular election WILL NOT count toward electing delegates, many people stayed home and didn't vote. Shouldn't their preferences be counted to by an AUTHORIZED and openly campaigned election?

If an election isn't sanctioned for its results, IT DOESN'T COUNT because it is not a true and accurate count of the registered voter's preferences! Let's call an election here on Drudge and tell all registered voters that they can vote, but it doesn't count toward nominating delegates. Then let's take the results and declare that this candidate or the other won, so now it SHOULD COUNT or we've taken away these voter's rights to be heard.

Of course this is an imperfect analogy because the Retort isn't a state, but anyone can get the drift. De-legitimized elections cannot be retroactively called an accurate count of the electorate's choice when the electorate was told just the opposite before voting. Any arguments along these lines lack gravitas and any thread of honesty or unbiasedness. Its an absurd premise on its face.

You stink so bad you hum.

I always love the isults. It's the last bastion of a losing arguement and a sure sign of surrender.

IF THESE POLITICAL PARTIES TAKE FEDERAL MONEY....THEN DONT THEY HAVE TO FOLLOW THE FEDERAL GUIDELINES....OR THE US CONSTITUTION

I don't remember having the opportunity to vote in the Libertarian Party primary. Has the Libertarian party disenfranchised the voters of all 50 states?Could it be that the rules of the Libertarian Party don't allow for a primary in every state?

My point is, each political party has rules for nominating it's presidential candidate. The leaders of the FL and MI democratic party screwed over the voters of their own state. If I lived in either one of those states I would be rip-roarin' mad at my legislator and vote him/her out of office for screwing up so bad.

"If the courts take up this matter, it will be out of the hands of the DNC."

A Federal court dismissed the case just this morning.

The Appellate Court may hear the case, but there is substantial case history behind allowing political parties a free hand in establishing their rules and regulations on primaries so it would be very surprising if anything came of it.

CC - do you have a link to the article? I couldn't find anything in the news outlets. Its odd that the date posted on your excerpt is dated the day BEFORE the ruling by the Federal District Court.

For someone who's never issued a peep about the illegitimacy of the Bush Presidency

Because I do not think it is illegitimate. Honestly, you are grasping at straws, dude and sinking fast.

So if they count 1/2 the delegates

And the 2026 number was based on 48 states---

Doesn't that mean the new number is increased?

Like to 2209 or some such??

Murphy

"The courts now will step in."

We'll see. Not likely as its already been thrown out twice.

"Doesn't that mean the new number is increased?"

Yes. Not sure what the number would end up being, though.

But the Primary's are NOT electing into a Law Making or Law Executing positions. That is what GENERAL elections do.

Wrong, Larry. It is possible that the numbers would change to Hillary's favor if FL and MI were counted. Not probably admittedly, but possible. The could mean that she, not Obama was president for four years. You cannot say the primaries have no effect on who becomes president.

Yes I agree, However they were warned before hand there would be a penalty.

IOW, this is like kindergarten. Everyone misses recess because one person broke the rules.

The only question I have of you is "why?", and I can't really trust you to give an honest answer as to why you continue to shill for those who have done so much damage over the last eight years.

Why? Because everyone's voice should be heard.

Shill? Funny stuff, betelg/boyd/cooper/badweek/
kazak. Just last week you accused me of failing to take a position on anything. This week I'm a shill.

I can't help but to love this sort of flip-flopping logic.

You are so very wrong and You know it Goatman. When has a Primary winner gone on straight away to begin making Laws or in the executing of them. You are full of shit if You say they do. The Primary's only elect a candidate that then goes on to the General Election THEN onto making laws or in the execution thereof. Nice try once again but sorry wrongo.

Larry Mohr

DNC==kindergarten

Most definitely!

Murphy

Thanks CC.

SAR

Sorry, I screwed up the month!
It was February, not May. My brain is mush.

Everyone misses recess because one person broke the rules.

They should have learned something. When they are adults in a much more serious situation, they should know better.

The rules are the rules.

You are so very wrong and You know it Goatman.

No I'm not Larry. Everyone's voice should be heard. I'm saddened you don't feel the same, but that's your right.

Most definitely!

Murphy


LOL the one thing that is Most Definite is both Murphy and Goat's only issue here is promoting chaos.

So, Sorry Goat but do spare me your faux concern boys.

When has a Primary winner gone on straight away to begin making Laws or in the executing of them.

That's an amusing twist of my original premise, Larry. Did it make you laugh, too?

If memory serves me correct, there were other states that wanted to move the date of their primary up on the calendar. After being told by the DNC that their delegations would not be seated if they went on with their earlier primary date, these states deferred to the rules of the DNC.

Now, if FL and MI are allowed to have their delegations seated, after blatantly violating the rules established by the DNC. won't there be a larger number of states that would have a stronger legal case for suing the DNC?

The DNC has to stay with their rules established prior to the opening of the primary season or they risk lawsuits from many more states than just FL and MI.

DNC==kindergarten

Most definitely!

Murphy

I guess that means the Republican party=pre-school.

So Obama becomes the nominee based on 48 states?


Love it!


Murphy

So, Sorry Goat but do spare me your faux concern boys

You've obviously been spared, zap, as has everyone else. I honestly believe everyone's vote should count. I have no idea why you think I am insincere, but that's your issue to deal with, not mine.

It's past lunchtime. Hope you guys are still here when I get back.

SAR

This short blurp below didn't specify which FL court threw it out but I have to assume it was the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals since they were the next court in line to consider it? The Supreme Court only hears 25% of the cases petitioned for hearing so there is not much chance of these litigants being heard before that court.

(Sorry about the date confusion on my previous post. Guess "duh" is now my middle name.)

May 28, 2008
Florida court throws out DNC suit
Posted: 10:45 AM ET

A Florida court threw out a lawsuit Wednesday challenging the Democratic Party's decision not to seat delegates from Florida.

(CNN) -- A Florida court threw out a lawsuit Wednesday challenging the Democratic Party's decision not to seat delegates from Florida -- as litigants prepared to appeal the case to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Well, I would say that the teamsters are not elected into a lawmaking and law executing position, but that would be wrong. *grin*

Posted by goatman at 2008-05-28 11:34 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag:

This is what You said Goatman and the same holds true with Primary winners. They are not elected into a Lawmaking and Law Executing position. That only happens AFTER the GENERAL election. But do continue to twist in the wind.

Larry Mohr

CC - As I understand it, the Federal District Court dismissed it back in October because the primary hadn't taken place yet, so there could be no harm claimed. It went to the 11th Circuit and they sent it back down and said look at it again after the primary is held.

The Federal District heard it this time, and dismissed it today. Now the Appellate Court will decide if they will hear the case.

As a lifelong Democrat, I feel very good about the coming election. We'll work thru the MIFL delegate situation, nominate a candidate and then kick McAncient's ass in November.

He's been campaigning unopposed for about two months now and has made no headway whatsoever. He should be building a lead that will be able to withstand the push that will come after the Democratic Convention!

Y'all need to spend a little more time worrying about why McAncient doesn't seem to be gaining any traction with the electorate!!!

SAR

The Federal District heard it this time, and dismissed it today. Now the Appellate Court will decide if they will hear the case.

So I am correct? It will now be the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals to
hear the Florida appellant's case?

I love this stuff. I also believe I heard the Appellate Court does not always hear oral arguments? (I may be wrong.) If so then it may the appellate judges who decide the matter only on the submitted written petitions by both sides. No big deal but it will allow those judges to make their decision with less media attention.

Now I'd like to know just which judges are sitting on that 11th Circuit court and who appointed them. What political party predominates among the judges on that appellate court? Hmmm. The plot thickens.

"My brain is mush.

Posted by CalifChris "


Well said, Chris. :)

This is what You said Goatman and the same holds true with Primary winners. They are not elected into a Lawmaking and Law Executing position.

Your twisting of my words was amusing the first time, but it's not quite so funny the second, Larry. Time for you to move on to new material.

I ain't twisting anything around Goatman. You just got Your ass caught now You are deflecting like a typical trool. Not so funny dat be.

Larry Mohr

"My brain is mush.

Posted by CalifChris "


Well said, Chris. :)

Posted by nullifidian at 2008-05-29 12:34 AM

Aww, you're losing your edge, Nulli

You left out this other comment of mine at 12:09 a.m. --

Guess "duh" is now my middle name.

Unless you were saving that self-dissing remark of mine for later.
You get so few of them from me you can use as ammo I can understand why you'd treasure each one so you could stretch them out in separate posts.

I ain't twisting anything around Goatman. You just got Your ass caught now

yeah, sure. Whatever you says bOoB -- I mean, Larry.

"You get so few of them from me you can use as ammo I can understand why you'd treasure each one so you could stretch them out in separate posts.

Posted by CalifChris "


Damn! How'd you figure out my strategy?

Damn! How'd you figure out my strategy?


Simple. I'm smarter. : )

DNC==kindergarten

Most definitely!

Murphy

POSTED BY MURPHY AT 2008-05-28 11:58 PM | REPLY | FLAG:


The GOP took half the delegates New Hampshire, Florida, South Carolina, Michigan and Wyoming for moving up their primary date.

I guess that means the Republican party=pre-school.

POSTED BY WHATSLEFT AT 2008-05-29 12:05 AM | REPLY | FLAG:

Indeed.

Everyone clamoring for the votes of Michigan and Florida to be heard: I intend to vote on November first for the general election. Fucked if that's not when it's supposed to happen, that's when I want to vote. And my voice should be heard no matter how many rules I break, right?

And my voice should be heard no matter how many rules I break, right?

Wrong. If you break the rules you should not be able to vote. So I agree that there are probably a dozen or so democrats who shouldn't. The other several million should be allowed to have their voices heard since they broke no rules.

BTW, vote Nov. 1. Early voting is legal. just don't expect to do at at the normal polling place you are used to.

The Democratic party is on a correction course. This is where the fascist left goes for it and loses control of the party. Obama will be the
neo-McGovern. Please drive Florida and Michigan to McCain in the general election.

funnie the people who still rant and rave about fla voters bein denied in 2000 are willin to deny them now---doin the gop one better by throwin out mich also
jasman

In 2012, primary voting will begin in 2011.

or 2010.

or 2009.

I heard Michigan and Florida are planning their 2012 Primaries for January of 2008, right after the inauguration.

It's a bit premature to determine the outcome. A straw poll to elicit delegate's stated intentions, may be upset by a surprise disclosure shortly before or during the convention, disqualifying Obama as a viable candidate.

The fat lady hasn't sung yet.

Obama is a denizen of the sewers, and some of the feces he has wallowed in and ingested may be too odious for even Democrat Party hacks to accept, particularly if it is perceived as making him a more likely loser.

Again, look at some of the onus that attaches to him:

1) Druggie (with or without flashbacks).

2) Unfamiliarity with geography and government (U.S. has 58 states).

3) Ignorance of America due to his early education in a foreign maddrassah rather than in the American school system.

4) Indoctrination by black racist mentor for more than 20 years (Rev. Wright).

5) Involvement with corrupt political payoff by indicted fixer ($300,000 from Rezko).

There's more, but this tree is sufficiently poisoned to produce some fruit that will result in his political demise.

The media has tried to protect him from disclosure of any aspect of his being that might possibly reflect on Obama negatively. He is a chain smoker, but not one photo that I have seen, shows him smoking.

Of course, the media consists of indoctrinated hypocrites, who believe that the end justifies the means, this despite their self-adulation and constant incestuous discourse regarding their role in disclosing "the truth" and being watchdogs.

The fat lady. Where is the fat lady? Ask not if the fat lady will sing. She will. But whose swan song will it be?

6) People like Johnson making posts like this could be a huge asset of Obama.

The fat lady is not going to sing. She is going to be out campaigning for Obama by Labor Day. Her fat husband too.

What will happen in future elections, when Florida and Michigan (rightfully) insist that they should be able to hold primaries whenever the hell they want?

And isn't this a turn from just a few months ago, when the DNC was bloviating that they wouldn't be recognizing the MI and FL delegations at all? Already they've backed off and are giving them each half. Can't blame Hillary for sticking around--who knows what can happen in a month, in a party legendary for re-writing the rules as they go along?