They should sue.

This is why conservatives hate the ACLU, because they stand up for people's rights when conservatives want to deny them their rights.

Forced patriotism is not patriotism because the person doesn't really feel it.

Required to say the Pledge of Allegiance?

Do they also have to sign Loyalty Oaths?

What country did you say this was?

Amerika

Wow, epic fail on the headline.

D'oh.

Wow, Member, thanks!

This is why conservatives hate the ACLU, because they stand up for people's rights when conservatives want to deny them their rights.

Member, as a libertarian, you know the left is just as guilty.. Peace!

That is true JSP, the left just hates different kinds of groups, like the NRA, for example.

That is true JSP, the left just hates different kinds of groups, like the NRA, for example.

Or property owners, smokers, etc...

The left is all for the right to own guns---the right to keep and bear arms is a liberal concept. The right just wants to make the arms easily available to terrorists, and the left is against thet.

The left is for the right to smoke as much as you want--you just seem to think you have the right to force me to breath your smoke.

I don't see the point about the left hating property owners--many on the left own property. I think your paranoia is showing.

;-)

Been there and yes ,done that. My reasons are much as Doc Sarvis commented. Patriotism is inside of you. You have it or not. To be required to make a pledge repeatedly has nothing to do with patriotism.

In 1968 the same happened to me. I can guarantee that it can not be required on pain of anything. To quietly show respect for the rights of others is just common sense. The principal of my High School(a former Colonel) sent me home with even better, I was thrown out supposedly permanently. After a very quick and easy call to the people that handle such things(guess who), a call was received at the house to the affect, all is forgiven and no record will exist.

I consider myself to be very much patriotic buy don't believe in requiring a repeated pledge(or else) proves anything..Even such paranoid systems such as the USSR never required such a daily(or more often) pledge of loyalty. Do you think that a spy or some such would hesitate to pledge or sign a loyalty oath.

Be respectful and demonstrate your allegiance by your actions not an overly often repeated pledge.

Screw these bastards. If someone doesn't want to acknowledge his being subject to the dominion of this country by participating in its rituals, then let him be denied other aspects of participation.

Repeated patriotic displays shape the structure of the brain to adapt the expressed beliefs, which are reinforced by actions. Here we have people denying their debt to this country and this society for enabling them to live here. Ingrates. In the good old days, the parents would have been tarred and featered and ridden out of town on a rail. What's the modern equivalent of such a procedure? Get on with it.

If someone doesn't want to acknowledge his being subject to the dominion of this country by participating in its rituals, then let him be denied other aspects of participation.

Repeated patriotic displays shape the structure of the brain to adapt the expressed beliefs, which are reinforced by actions.

"Repeated patriotic displays shape the structure of the brain to adapt the expressed beliefs, which are reinforced by actions. Here we have people denying their debt to this country and this society for enabling them to live here. Ingrates"

Yeah. Sieg Heil!

I don't see the point about the left hating property owners--many on the left own property. I think your paranoia is showing.

Goddamn you are dense.. Bar owners are property owners stupid.. And nobody ever forced you to enter their establishments...

"Repeated patriotic displays shape the structure of the brain to adapt the expressed beliefs, which are reinforced by actions. Here we have people denying their debt to this country and this society for enabling them to live here. Ingrates"

The one thing most of us can agree on is that Johnson is batshit crazy...

That is true JSP, the left just hates different kinds of groups, like the NRA, for example.
Posted by member2586 at 2008-05-10 10:52 AM

Or property owners, smokers, etc...
Posted by jsprague at 2008-05-10 11:04 AM

It's apparent that you two on the Right simply detest the opinions of the poor, the educated, and the socialist ideals that create society in general. You couldn't care less why someone doesn't agree with you, simply that they do is enough to label and dispose of them.

Here's another fine example of your fellowship:

Screw these bastards. If someone doesn't want to acknowledge his being subject to the dominion of this country by participating in its rituals, then let him be denied other aspects of participation.
Repeated patriotic displays shape the structure of the brain to adapt the expressed beliefs, which are reinforced by actions. Here we have people denying their debt to this country and this society for enabling them to live here. Ingrates. In the good old days, the parents would have been tarred and featered and ridden out of town on a rail. What's the modern equivalent of such a procedure? Get on with it.
Posted by Johnson at 2008-05-10 12:02 PM

You are talking about behavioral training and reinforcement. Not belief, but an imposed one. You might believe that "patriotism" is the topic, but that's obviously inaccurate. It's the fact that someone disagrees with you that galls and offends your sensibilities.

You are a fascist fuckwit, and if you have kids I'm sure that they fear you.

It's apparent that you two on the Right simply detest the opinions of the poor, the educated, and the socialist ideals that create society in general.

Nice moniker - "Robot".. that about sums it up.. You are clearly on autopilot... Neither myself nor member2856 (If he doesn't mind speaking on his behalf) are anything like Johnson.. I think I made that perfectly clear 1 post before yours when I said that Johnson was "Batshit crazy". Its fine that you are a member of the sheeple and believe that we are screwy, but please do so for the right reasons...

Incedentally, I am firmly against fascism which comes from both the left and the right these days. It sounds like you have chosen poorly...

Goddamn you are dense.. Bar owners are property owners stupid.. And nobody ever forced you to enter their establishments...

Posted by jsprague at 2008-05-10 12:14 PM | Reply


Then say "bar owners" dumbass. To say "property owners" and think everyone knows WTF you are talking about is stupidity at its height.

You are correct that nobody forced me to go in there--but once there, people want to force me to breath their smoke. These addicts need to be aware of others rights to breath also, and they won't flop over dead if they smoke where it won't hurt others. I know you stand for the rights of rude assholes, and that's good. Someone has to stand up for them, but face facts--they are rude assholes. It is exactly the same as someone farting a big wet egg fart when you are trying to eat.

"It's apparent that you two on the Right simply detest the opinions of the poor, the educated, and the socialist ideals that create society in general."

Nice moniker - "Robot".. that about sums it up.. You are clearly on autopilot... Neither myself nor member2856 (If he doesn't mind speaking on his behalf) are anything like Johnson.. I think I made that perfectly clear 1 post before yours when I said that Johnson was "Batshit crazy". Its fine that you are a member of the sheeple and believe that we are screwy, but please do so for the right reasons...
Incedentally, I am firmly against fascism which comes from both the left and the right these days. It sounds like you have chosen poorly...
Posted by jsprague at 2008-05-10 01:05 PM

Perhaps so. I really don't see the connection with "libs" hating the NRA, and so I will speak on all liberals behalf - we appreciate RESPONSIBLE people, regardless if you are a gun enthusiast or a smoker.

That distinction has to be offered every time someone disagrees with your blanket statements, and I am tired of having to babytalk the Right through it time and again. Just get on the boat already, wanna-liberal!

You are correct that nobody forced me to go in there--but once there, people want to force me to breath their smoke. These addicts need to be aware of others rights to breath also, and they won't flop over dead if they smoke where it won't hurt others. I know you stand for the rights of rude assholes, and that's good. Someone has to stand up for them, but face facts--they are rude assholes. It is exactly the same as someone farting a big wet egg fart when you are trying to eat.


If you go into a bar, you should expect to be around people who smoke. If this bothers you, go some place else. But instead, you would prefer that someone accommodate you because you don't like smoke. I haven't been to a restaurant in, well ever, that doesn't have a smoking section separate from the non-smoking section. If you're sitting in the smoking section, ask to be moved.

You remind me of this older lady who walked past me with a grimace and a "I can't believe they put the smoking section right here by the exit" under her breath. At which point, I directed her to the 3 other exits in the fucking restaurant.

Your sense of entitlement...it's showing.

I love my country, but I hate the idea of being forced to recite anything.

But the school doesn't need to be sued. If the letter from the ACLU helped correct the situation (the article stated that steps were being taken to get the suspension off the boys' records), then great. No harm, no foul.

"... the left is just as guilty.. Peace!"

The left is NOT, you know. The left totally opposes forcing anyone to the left. herm

"Repeated patriotic displays shape the structure of the brain to adapt the expressed beliefs, which are reinforced by actions."

Brave New World or 1984, anyone? Mein Kampf, maybe. Read Johnson carefully. He/she represents Republican thought processes. herm

And "libs" don't "hate" the NRA, Adolf. Ridicule it, probably. Oppose it at every opportunity, maybe. Highlight its views as dangerous to children and other living things, yeah, most of the time. But "hate" is trait-marked by the Far Right. herm

I read all the posts and Johnson's was by far the funniest. He always cracks me up.

"I read all the posts and Johnson's was by far the funniest. He always cracks me up."

If you think that's funny, you ought to read Johnson's favorite book,Mein Kampf.

Kim Dahl asked Brandt why he has been remained seated (during the pledge) all school year, but "he didn't have an answer ... he doesn't get in trouble; he's just a normal 13-year-old."

As for today, she told Brandt to take his cell phone with him to school and text her should he run into trouble again. "I said you should probably just stand if you're not protesting something."
* * * *

I'm ambivalent about the pledge of allegiance. But when a parent gives a kid a 13-year-old kid a cell phone to use at school, there's a bigger problem than a lazy adolescent. Parents are morons too.

Seems like the person that wrote the headline is full of shit. Why tell a lie when the truth is so easy to find? Sounds like something the Clintons do.

A kid is suspended for not saying The Pledge, and the only prloblem RIR seems to have with it is that his parents have given him a cell phone. What a moron.
FYI: Many many kids are given cell phones by their parents for purposes of staying in touch at any given moment. It is a good idea. I have made a point of doing it with my kids.

Ummm...headline is wrong.

The school's handbook says all students are required to stand but are not required to recite the pledge. The same is true for all four schools in the district, a school official said.

They got suspended for not standing. That's the requirement...there is no requirement for reciting.

The one thing most of us can agree on is that Johnson is batshit crazy...

Posted by jsprague


...can I get an AMEN.......AAAAAAAMEN!!!

Damn pir, there are several of us that can read more than just a headline.

A kid is suspended for not saying The Pledge, and the only prloblem RIR seems to have with it is that his parents have given him a cell phone. What a moron.
FYI: Many many kids are given cell phones by their parents for purposes of staying in touch at any given moment. It is a good idea. I have made a point of doing it with my kids.

Posted by moder8
* * *

You're right. I don't really give a damn about the kid, the kid's parents, or Minnesota. And if you give your kids permission to text or use the cell phone during school, then you're an idiot too.

Welcome to the 21st century RIR. It's a brave new world of communication and interconnectedness. And yes, you can tell your wife she can put her hoop skirt and spinning wheel away.

RIR,

"she told Brandt to take his cell phone with him to school and text her should he run into trouble again"

maybe you should read that again. The mother gave the son the cellphone because of an extraordinary situation. It is clear that this was not normal behaviour on her part to have her son have a cell phone at school. Between the "little Napoleon" school administrator and the other kids who may also give him crap for not standing up, I think it was a good idea to have the cellphone.

RiR-
I agree with you on the cell phone. If the kid has a problem with a teacher, the kid can wait to get home to tell his parents, or call after school. I don't care if kids have cell phones, but they don't belong in class -- in school, fine, but they need to stay in the lockers.

No one said that the Minnesota version included "under god," but if it did, and it probably did, this is settled law. You cannot shove gawd down kiddie throats - and to be sure, you cannot ban her from the classroom either if she chooses to come in and write writ in the blackboard. herm

There is no way this is right by any stretch of the swastika.

Remember freedom? Remember all humans having the right to be born free?
Something fundamental to the founding of our Country?

Suspend the student???? Kick the student out all together.

All they had to do is follow a school rule and stand.

This school sure doesn't believe in the first amendment in ALL it entails. They sure spit upon the very ideal that they pledge aliegence to and that is the symbol of Freedom the American Flag. What utter disgraces these School systems are anymore.

Larry Mohr

PS Moneywar Kick the student out for excersizing their Freedoms?? Boy that is whacked out even for YOU.

I'm Christian. I pledge to God alone. Not to a piece of cloth.

Sorry butI do not believe Cell Phones belong in schools. if a Student needs to call home He or She can go to the Principals/Assistan Principals office and use the phone there. Cell Phones woud be a distraction to the Learning environment.

Larry Mohr

I wanna bite the hand that feeds me
I wanna bite that hand so badly
I want to make them wish they'd never seen me

Some of my friends sit around every evening
And they worry about the times ahead
But everybody else is overwhelmed by indifference
And the promise of an early bed.

"Radio, Radio"

Elvis Costello

Most kids are compliant... and follow the lead of parents and/or teachers.
For a kid to defy the rules and for his parents to back the kid in that endeavor... I feel bad for the kid, who is being led down a bad path by his folks.

That's the problem of having the integrity not to bow down to the criminal State.

Hey OohRah tell that to Jahovah's Witnesses. Don't they have a right to not stand and not say the pledge?? I may notagree with the JW religion but if You get to practice Your religion freely then they augh to be able to practice their religion as they see fit.

Larry

No one said that the Minnesota version included "under god," but if it did, and it probably did, this is settled law. You cannot shove gawd down kiddie throats - and to be sure, you cannot ban her from the classroom either if she chooses to come in and write writ in the blackboard. herm

Posted by herm

Try reading the article stupid. It was for not standing. Had nothing to do with saying the pledge.

"My son wasn't being defiant against America," said Kim Dahl, mother of one of the students, Brandt, who attends Dilworth-Glyndon-Felton Junior High School in northwestern Minnesota.

From the article...

"Just didn't like following orders ~ that's all!" said the future McDonald employees

"My son wasn't being defiant against America," said Kim Dahl, mother of one of the students,"Just didn't like following orders ~ that's all!"

So he didn't stand while someone else said the pledge. Sounds like defiant to me.

Judging from some of these posts, there is a new god in town: the State.

"Try reading the article stupid. It was for not standing. Had nothing to do with saying the pledge."

Try thinking (comma) stupid. Being forced to stand for an "under gawd" pledge is just as abhorrent as being forced to recite the words. The law recognizes that. The kids were future patriots. herm

At our senior center on most days we pop up like little robots to say the pledge of allegiance.

I pop up, but I let them say it, especially that part about being one nation under dog.

Yes we live in a very red little city in a very red state, and as Republicans have a lot, indeed a carload of reasons to be defensive, I understand their need to be swaddled in the flag.

W retired here in sunny Arizona for the weather.

I stand up for the anthem @ Twin & Viking games...

They got suspended for not standing. That's the requirement...there is no requirement for reciting.

Posted by Pirate

Just remember that freedom isn't free. Of all the shit that goes on with students, this is what they are suspended for? I am sure that Comrade Stalin is smiling with glee at this one.

So he didn't stand while someone else said the pledge. Sounds like defiant to me.

Posted by Sniper

Goddamn, Sniper would side with the British during the Boston Tea Party.

"Or property owners, smokers, etc..."

Liberals hate people who think for themselves and also those that disagree with them.

well, the patriots didn't have to pay the crown anything after they won ~ did they?...maybe these kids are budding tax protesters:>)

Required to say the Pledge of Allegiance?

Do they also have to sign Loyalty Oaths?

Posted by Doc_Sarvis at


again as someone mentioned just a post or two ago. there was considerable amount of the usual liberal bloviating about this and that and all under the incorrect FACT of the case that they were suspended because of NOT STANDING......also consider that its an in school suspension and so the only real discipline is the old saw about "ITS GOING TO BE ON YOUR RECORD....anyone ever seen YOUR RECORD from HS.......I thought not...

and ONE MORE IMPORTANT THING......I have been in districts like this before and the rule on standing is to protect the students who, because they thinks its cool or their parents are still stuck in the 60's, dont want to recite the pledge...( trust me, the 1st amendment or the bill of rights is not the main thought for this crusade against american values, making some news or being 'cool'or different is)........and when they dont stand, they are the ONLY ONES SITTING and it might embarrass them and dont think of a minute that some kid or their parent didnt bitch about that......"SINGLING them out by the other students standing.
but of course just as we can read here with so many of you arguing THE WRONG POINT COMPLETELY....you dont really give a shit about any of that......

Refuse to salute Uncle Scam!!!

Can't blame them one bit because what does the US Flag stand for today except Greed and Evil Capitalist War Mongering!

Of all the shit that goes on with students, this is what they are suspended for?

----

It's the refusal of a requirement. It was a one day in school suspension which sounds like an all day detention.

"liberal bloviating"

Molly Ivins is spinning ...

Liberals hate people who think for themselves and also those that disagree with them.

Posted by KBM at 2008-05-10 08:59 PM | Reply


Not at all. Liberals think for themselves and are not satisfied with the status quo. It is the rightists who can't stand disagreement or discussion.

Look at the thread you are on moron. The rightists freak because a kid won't stand up. You live in the lemming lane and accuse others of being sheep. You prove your stupidity and ignorance in very few words. Congratualtions.

THIS IS A REFRESHING SITE...IT DIRECTLY SHOWS THE TRUE thoughts OF THE SOCIALIST, ANTI AMERICANS LIKE bani, anticadillac,ray,doc sarvis....these guys are the true enemies within and should be dealt with accordingly

these guys are the true enemies within and should be dealt with accordingly


By who?


You?


Funny shit.

25 best?

Edgar Winter's White Trash...White Trash

Buzytroll

lol...white trash?

You know there will be those that will say these students don't love America. That they do not respect what this Country was founded upon. I say rubbish. They do love America as a matter of fact those that dissent love their Country more than the ones who will go along with the Status Quo. When You are willingly excersizing those rights that the founding fathers fought for and died for You are supporting them. OohRah You said How can You declare You support the troops and not the mission and that includes the policies in which landed them up in harms way. I say by You excersizing that right to dissent (that people like You that claim they are fighting and dying for those freedoms) You are not wasting their sacrifice by not refusing to stand up for what You believe in, Does a person really support the troops when they fail to excersize that fundamental right to dissent ones own government when they feel they should?? I say they do a great disservice by staying silent when their Country needs to hear their voice of dissent. You aren't supporting the troops when You remain silent.

Larry Mohr

THIS IS A REFRESHING SITE...IT DIRECTLY SHOWS THE TRUE thoughts OF THE SOCIALIST, ANTI AMERICANS LIKE bani, anticadillac,ray,doc sarvis....these guys are the true enemies within and should be dealt with accordingly

Posted by BusyB at 2008-05-10 09:40 PM | Reply |


Yes--seeking freedom and equality in America makes them enemies to people like you. Go get your gun pants pisser.

liberal bloviating"

Molly Ivins is spinning ...

Posted by Zatoichi at


AAAAAAAHHHHHH zat.....good one.

buffalo bob said It is the rightists who can't stand disagreement or discussion.

I disagree.......like, completely.......its the left who is all about free speach......as long as its something they agree with.
and who is it thats all over doing away with freedom of speach over radio waves from noon til 3 mon-friday ? the left, of course.

buffalo bob said It is the rightists who can't stand disagreement or discussion.
I disagree.......like, completely*


So BL2 sides with the left and the ACLU.

Good to hear..


* i hope you don't mind the spell..........check........

Tommy Chong, Charlie Sheen and Willy Nelson ALL think 9-11 was a conspiracy?

Well shit, who am I to disagree with engineers of such caliber?

Bani- Now that's something of some substance at least. But Tommy Chong and Charlie Sheen can keep their opinions to themselves.

"criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report is not only reasonable and responsible, it is in fact a patriotic duty"

Newsworthy flag.

Even members of the commission now admit their hands were somewhat tied and they didn't get evidence they asked for. And didn't many of the commission members have major ties to oil- creating a huge conflict of interest into the real cause of this event?

To demand a new independent investigation (including science) into the largest crime scene of mass murder in this country is the most patriotic thing one could ask for imho.

Not to get off topic...

But Tommy Chong and Charlie Sheen can keep their opinions to themselves.

Posted by Alexandrite at 2008-05-10 10:23 PM


So can you.

At that age it's not so much "patriotism", but discipline. Maybe you should read about what our forefathers, military heroes, leaders, and others who gave their lives have sacrificed to allow you to have such a pledge and a flag and a country. Are you one of those who thinks our enemies respect your right to live a life of liberty, freedom of speech, and safety? I wonder.

Denial-
re: "Are you one of those who thinks our enemies respect your right to live a life of liberty, freedom of speech,..."

Well, you obviously don't, so what makes you better?

That shut him down. Nice one, betel.

"Being forced to stand for an "under gawd" pledge is just as abhorrent as being forced to recite the words."
Exactly.
I have a son who was told that he and a JW child would have to stand in the hall during the pledge. A few copies of the law, given to the teacher and two principals stopped that BS the next day. The pledge thing came up every year.
I also made a teacher cry when she wanted to have prayer time and I told her no. She was also planning to make a JW child stand in the hall with my son. That BS did not last an hour once I heard it.

denial makes a good point whether the libs here want to understand that and here is a look into why we have such problems in our liberal public schools. libs dont want to talk about discipline in these schools because that means that you have to make choices on issues and libs dont want anything to do with that.
you cant say ALWAYS but I found that MOST OF THE TIME issues like this come up because kids see that they can GET THE ATTENTION that comes with it. and I include students who do shit the OTHER WAY as well.
just think...if they had FOLLOWED the rules, would we be talking about them today....I wonder if any got DATES because they were 'so cool' as to defy the rules of the school. I have seen this shit before up close and personal and my first thought is to be at least skeptical of young people who makes such demonstrations on things they really dont even want to think about much less act on...and REMEMBER...before you smarter than everyone else pricks start to call me all your little names.....I am saying that many times what I am saying is spot on and I say that from experience.


hey berkley....made a teacher cry...I bet that makes you feel like a real man....good for you.

and now the left is using some paragons of virtue to make their case.
tommy chong and charlie sheen........wow.....thats pretty impressive..........hee hee

berkly......I meant to add....I disagree with probably you whole existence...but I have to say....more parents should be so involved
AND you make my first point for me, I believe...the rule in this school at and about making them stand serves the SAME PURPOSE that you talk about....about making them stand in the hallway...thats just silly and really does single them out......I believe that making them STAND and remember....THATS THE ISSUE. that and discipline...making them stand was an effort to keep them from being 'demonizes' for lack of a better word.......

demonized.......and does anyone else have the comment flag box running from the top of the screen to the bottom.....does that block any of the rest of your screens or is that rcade blocking my freedom to speak out......AGAIN........LOL

"and now the left is using...."

Is it "whine-thirty" already??

Man this day is going fast!!

lol

BL2 would you have been too liquored up to notice your students weren't standing?

and does anyone else have the comment flag box running from the top of the screen to the bottom

I don't, you might want to reboot or upgrade from Windows 95.

On topic: Is there an expiration date or shelf life associated with saying the Pledge? I don't understand why it must be repeated over and over again. Once I've made my pledge of allegiance to the flag (or to anything) it should remain valid until I break that pledge.

100 Professors Question 9/11 Commission Report

Many respected and distinguished university professors have expressed significant criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report.

Posted by Bani

Professors of what? I'll bet none are structural engineers.

Being a professor dosen't make them an expert in everything. Usualy being a professor makes them a flaming lib.

Patriotism-devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty.

"The flag is the embodiment, not of sentiment, but of history." Woodrow Wilson (1856 - 1924)
"Our obligations to our country never cease but with our lives." John Adams (1735 - 1826)
"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president." (Theodore Roosevelt)
Psalm 111:10(NIV)
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To Him belongs eternal praise.
Proverbs 1:7(NIV)
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.
"The price of freedom of religion, or of speech, or of the press, is that we must put up witha good deal of rubbish." (Robert Jackson)
"It behooves every man to remember that the work of the critic is of altogether secondary importance, and that in the end, progress is accomplished by the man who does things." (Theodore Roosevelt)

Oh, great, another cut-and-paste patriot.

hello sweet thang......
so, gotten any lately?????

and again as is usually the case.....only comment on my comments is an attack on me and no mention of points or counter points or facts of any sort. you people are the easiest........

"hello sweet thang......
so, gotten any lately?????"

You'd DIE if I told you....lol.

"and again as is usually the case.....only comment on my comments is an attack on me and no mention of points or counter points or facts of any sort. you people are the easiest"

Ummm...sweetie? It's because YOU are so easy that you get made fun of.

Duh

lol

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in August

1892 by the socialist minister Francis Bellamy

(1855-1931). It was originally published in The

Youth's Companion on September 8, 1892. Bellamy

had hoped that the pledge would be used by

citizens in any country.


In 1954, in response to the Communist threat of

the times, President Eisenhower encouraged

Congress to add the words "under God," creating

the 31-word pledge we say today. Bellamy's

daughter objected to this alteration.


Section 4 of the Flag Code states:

The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: "I pledge

allegiance to the Flag of the United States of

America, and to the Republic for which it stands,

one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty

and justice for all.", should be rendered by

standing at attention facing the flag with the

right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men

should remove any non-religious headdress with

their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder,

the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform

should remain silent, face the flag, and render

the military salute."

"The American's Creed"

by William Tyler Page

I believe in the United States of America as a government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed, a democracy in a republic, a sovereign Nation of many sovereign States; a perfect union, one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice, and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.

I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it, to support its Constitution, to obey its laws, to respect its flag, and to defend it against all enemies.

Written 1917, accepted by the United States House

of Representatives on April 3, 1918.

"I swear by almighty God this sacred oath:
I will render unconditional obedience
to the Fuehrer of the German Reich and people, Adolf Hitler,
Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht,
and, as a brave soldier,
I will be ready at any time
to stake my life for this oath."

and again as is usually the case.....only comment on my comments is an attack on me and no mention of points or counter points or facts of any sort. you people are the easiest........
~LameDuck2


First few can or will spend the time to decipher your ramblings.

Claiming you're not a typist is not an excuse. You show no pride in your work yet you want to heard. Larry goes so far as to sign his name to his posts out of a sense of pride. Most times it takes an Enigma machine to rake out even a glimmer of what you mean.

Don't pompously connect a sense of victory to a lack of response. Most simply don't care what you say because you show no pride in making yourself understood.

Giving these kids the attention they seek is not a punishment.

D_Sarvis,

"Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day. "

Thomas Jefferson - 3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)

Get it?

Sorry, I don't quite recognize your riff.

"I swear by almighty God this sacred oath:
I will render unconditional obedience
to the Fuehrer of the German Reich and people, Adolf Hitler,
Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht,
and, as a brave soldier,
I will be ready at any time
to stake my life for this oath." - doc

Reductio ad Hitlerum, given this poor line of reasoning, all vegetarians are Nazi's.

Doc

I believe he exchanges 'Enlighten' with Indoctrinate.

"I swear by almighty God this sacred oath:
I will render unconditional obedience
to the Fuehrer of the German Reich and people, Adolf Hitler,
Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht,
and, as a brave soldier,
I will be ready at any time
to stake my life for this oath."

Posted by Doc_Sarvis

Its nice to know how you feel but I think he is dead now.

Its nice to know how you feel but I think he is dead now.
~SNIPER


Indeed Snippy, you'll have to excuse Doc, he has very strange notion that history can repeat itself.

Have you ever heard anything so absurd?

Boy, oh boy. the associations some of you lefties make border on the bizarre. Okay they are bizarre.

The lefties are seeking a nation of ingrates without any cohesion of or sense of belonging and obligation. Somehow these people want to abandon the notion of the commonweal, and enable people to share in the blessings of living in this country without declaring their allegiance to it, or supporting it against all others. Alienated ingrates. Send them packing to the countries and cultures they idealize.

to share in the blessings of living in this country without declaring their allegiance to it, or supporting it against all others. Alienated ingrates. Send them packing to the countries and cultures they idealize.
~JOHNSON



Damn, sounds like all the corporations sending manufacturing abroad!

"...Its nice to know how you feel but I think he (Hitler) is dead now....Posted by Sniper..."

Yeah, well so is Jesus Christ you schmuck..and you still pray!

Hmm...The Pledge of Allegience written by a Socialist? Seems to check out.

What will Republicans support next? "Better Red then Dead?" oh - my bad, already done.

Hmm, seems to me like Vietnam all over. The duty to show allegiance to America is a personal freedom, and this strikes me as the PEOPLE saying that they do not support the current direction of our government. The last time I looked, it was our duty, as americans, to tell our government when we did not support it's direction, and it was it's directive to not behave as a kingdom or junta or dictatorship and to respond to the voice of the people. This has not been occuring recently, I believe. The government of America is no different than any other, and will grow without limits, and it is the responsibility of the people to restrict it when it crosses the line.

this strikes me as the PEOPLE saying that they do not support the current direction of our government.

Yeah, that's fine, whatever. Go protest somewhere then.

Our duty to stand and recite the pledge allegiance transcends whatever opinion you may have of the current administration/direction we're going in. To not recite it is to kick a steaming lump of shit into the face of every founding father and soldier who died to make it a sovereign nation.

Seriously. Forget Bush. You're not reciting the pledge to him, you're reciting it to show your loyalty to your fellow citizens to make this country work on the principles it was founded on. And if you don't feel the need to do that, "Brandt", whatever the fuck kind of name that is, then get the FUCK out.

Canada is fucking right over there.

"Our duty to stand and recite the pledge ... transcends whatever opinion you may have ..."

It doesn't either. By NO stretch of even a Hitlerian imagination have I any such duty...

"To not recite it is to kick ... shit into the face of every founding father and soldier who died...."

Wrong again. Not reciting it is a right every founding father, every dead soldier - AND I - fought for.

"...you're reciting it to show your loyalty to your fellow citizens to make this country work on the principles it was founded on."

No once more. The essential principle was that I wouldn't have to.

"And if you don't feel the need to do that ... get the FUCK out."

The last piece of bullshit here. YOU're the one who needs to go. herm

...and "they" say there is no political propaganda in America.

Children - FORCED to pledge to a county and its ideals.

Children should not be required to pledge to anything.

How is that any different then the Muslim schools - teaching the Koran?

And before you say that is teaching religion - their government IS religion.

In 1954, when "under God" was added, the Pledge of Allegiance became a prayer.

When I am a guest at a church service, I stand and sit quietly at the appropriate times. I do not kneel, take communion, or say the responses during the liturgy.

One should be flattered to be invited to observe a religious rite. Good manners, people!

I disagree.......like, completely.......its the left who is all about free speach......as long as its something they agree with

WTF are you channelling a 15 year old valley girl? Like.... totally.

So BLT, what is the right's position on flag burning?

I rest my case.

what is the right's position on flag burning?


Most reasonable people are opposed to arson.

this strikes me as the PEOPLE saying that they do not support the current direction of our government.

Yeah, that's fine, whatever. Go protest somewhere then.

Our duty to stand and recite the pledge allegiance transcends whatever opinion you may have of the current administration/direction we're going in. To not recite it is to kick a steaming lump of shit into the face of every founding father and soldier who died to make it a sovereign nation.


Sounds like they did protest.

How many founding fathers do you believe would be in favor of a forced loyalty oath to a piece of cloth?

Do you even know the origin of the pledge of allegiance? That it was written by a minister and a socialist one at that?

Did you also know....
One year after receiving this official sanction, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that school children could not be forced to recite the Pledge as part of their daily routine.

I say the ACLU, the evil bastion of defending civil rights, should get involved.

Most reasonable people are opposed to arson.


Are you serious?

So the VFW are a bunch of arsonists then?

I was joking, 726.

Most reasonable people are opposed to arson.

Damn it JJ, I am apposed to arson. Do like burning that is done with those cheater wives in the middle east though!

Burning?


I thought they were stoned to death.

It IS pretty barbaric in the ME.


According to the interpretative dictates of Sharia law, a woman can be subjected to 90 lashes simply for sharing a park bench with a man who is neither her husband or a family member.

This is utter stupidity. As long as they're following their written procedures, which they clearly are, they can suspend those kids for refusal to comply. Straightforward. No-brainer. Kids lose.

"As long as they're following their written procedures..."

Posted by jonryker

Are you saying that as long as they wrote down the procedure, all is okay?
Come on, JR, its settled constitutional law.

"...Its nice to know how you feel but I think he (Hitler) is dead now....Posted by Sniper..."

Yeah, well so is Jesus Christ you schmuck..and you still pray!

Posted by DUMPLING1


I do recall Sniper at one point claiming he's a non-believer. Not that I defend righties on a regular basis, but not all righties are believers.

Hagbard,

No, the procedures have to be in line with the Constitution, but this case has been tried in so many places and the court has been pretty consistent in siding with the schools on this one.

If their procedure had not been written down, it could actually have been a problem, though.

If their procedure had not been written down, it could actually have been a problem, though.

Posted by jonryker

Wow, that's pretty said that all one need to do is publish a policy to make it pass constitutional review.

What's the point of having the kid stand if they aren't going to pledge?

Sounds like punishment to me. I think that is where the heart of the current argument in defense of the child is.

Hagbard,

You can get away with a lot if you're acting according to what your student handbook says. If your handbook is mum on the issue, you can get in trouble for enforcing a regulation that is not there, even if it is in line with the Constitution.

It really simply hinges on not following the direction of a teacher, which is at the heart of educational order. The Court has recognized this is essential to effective education, and recognize the need to avoid causing a disruption.

Forcing people to show respect and forcing people to speak words they don't support have been looked at as two different things....The Court would not have approved of Mom's solution....forcing kid to write a paper, as that is putting words in the kid's mouth too.

You have to remember, high school students are not seen as adults, so you are allowed to order them around within reason.

If we dont teach pride in one's nation, the next generation will have no pride. Actually, showing respect for one's nation should be required at all grades. No one is above this nation and all who partake in it's goodness should be require to show reverence.

Also, remember,

BTW, you wont pledge alligence to the nation, but I bet you would be there to get social services you feel you deserve or are entitled to, wouldnt you?

In 1954, when "under God" was added, the Pledge of Allegiance became a prayer.

When I am a guest at a church service, I stand and sit quietly at the appropriate times. I do not kneel, take communion, or say the responses during the liturgy.

One should be flattered to be invited to observe a religious rite. Good manners, people!

Posted by john47 at 2008-05-12 07:22 AM
-----------------------

Key word "GUEST"

Public school "FORCED"

The righties here would FORCE respect. The same righties kneel down at the altar of "personal responsibility," but FORCE the little bastards to mumble allegiance to Jeebus and George Bush or we'll shoot them. Ryker burbles about "refusal to comply." Straight from The Borg. Resistance is futile. Man, they really add to civilized discourse! herm

What is sad - is some can't see/understand - - this is forced political propaganda.

If we dont teach pride in one's nation, the next generation will have no pride. Actually, showing respect for one's nation should be required at all grades. No one is above this nation and all who partake in it's goodness should be require to show reverence.

Also, remember,

BTW, you wont pledge alligence to the nation, but I bet you would be there to get social services you feel you deserve or are entitled to, wouldnt you?

Posted by boaz at 2008-05-12 11:32 AM
----------------------------

I take pride in a lot of things.

But maybe when we get past the mentality of imaginary "border's" - we will actually evolve as a whole race of humans.

You'd think these school administrators would understand that it is the right of every American to NOT say the pledge.

Boaz

"No one is above this nation and all who partake in it's goodness should be require to show reverence."

Maybe we can teach them to Goosestep when they march for your holy war. "Requiring" reverence is not the American way. If you were an American, you would know that.

"should be require(sic) to show reverence."

Let's require literacy first, asshat.

You'd think these school administrators would understand that it is the right of every American to NOT say the pledge.

Posted by Dumb_as_Rocks

But that's their angle. They require you to stand not to say the pledge. It's tricky, but the rule seems completely arbitrary, if not designed as a sort of punishment.

Imagine if other kids saw students sitting during the pledge? They might start questioning authority themselves. Then nobody would want to say the pledge. It would be anarchy.

Indeed Snippy, you'll have to excuse Doc, he has very strange notion that history can repeat itself.

Have you ever heard anything so absurd?

Posted by Zap

So, open your eyes. Every socialist country has failed. I don't mean private owned business I mean state owned business.

This is utter stupidity. As long as they're following their written procedures, which they clearly are, they can suspend those kids for refusal to comply. Straightforward. No-brainer. Kids lose.

Posted by jonryker at 2008-05-12 09:25 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e


"As long as they're following their written procedures..."

Posted by jonryker

Are you saying that as long as they wrote down the procedure, all is okay?
Come on, JR, its settled constitutional law.

Posted by Hagbard_Celine


Well we all know that the Constitution is just a Goddamned piece of paper in bushworld.

No one is above this nation and all who partake in it's goodness should be require to show reverence.


Yes, fuck our inalienable rights, it is much more important to be compliant, reverent and submissive to authority.

Well we all know that the Constitution is just a Goddamned piece of paper in bushworld.

Posted by 726

Yeah, was it Justice Scalia who said, "the Constitution is not a suicide pact?"

Apparently not any kind of pact at all.

Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2008-05-11 01:00 PM

The rest of what you slap up here is like nothing so much as a bad case of verbal diarrhea mixed with halitosis that would embarass an aged elephant. It reminds me of a bus stop latrine I once didn't visit in Charco San Rafael, Sonora, Mexico.

Kim Dahl said the "punishment didn't fit the crime. If they wanted to know why he didn't stand, they should've made him write a paper." She said her son has been declining to stand all school year, offered no reason for sitting and was not obligated to explain his actions.

I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

October 11, 1892

I've discovered a solution for you, Mama Dahl.

You have a congregation that you can join, Mama Dahl, the "Damn America" congregation of Trinity Church. Move away from Minnesota, and go to a metropolis where you can share your views with kindred souls who will be supportive.

What you need to do is enroll your son in the undisciplined schools of South Chicago, where he'll be really free to "do his own thing," and where this repressive martinet culture does not prevail.

Freedom now, Mama Dahl. Proceed to South Chicago, so your son can enjoy the freedom and learning environment of the schools there. With this refreshing opportunity to secure enlightenment and with the special freedom available in those schools, his learning capacity will be enhanced by association with kindred free non-conforming souls, and he'll not be challenged to comply with disciplinary requirements.

If you are not loyal and have no allegiance to this country -- then get out.
Why should I pay for your education. Let the country to whom you are loyal pay for it and go to school in that country

Positively right wingbot thinking there.

I hope you were being sarcastic.

Positively right wingbot thinking there.

I hope you were being sarcastic.

No.

damn CC. You have surprised me just a little. All you have to do is get past your hate for Bush. I don't like the guy but hate isn't the answer. Just look what the options were when he was running for president.

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.

This country is starting to unravel, I can forsee our country falling apart as we get farther and farther away from the ideals on which this country was founded. One day, the U.S. will undergo a revolution. Whoever takes over will implement their brand of life and I bet it wont be to you libs liking. Usually, when there is a revolution, peace is taken by force, and those who will be in control wont care about your liberal thinking, things will be back to the way they should be. God I wish I would be here to see it!

To those who question authority and foster anarchy, when a teenager questions authority and questions and questions and gets into trouble, then lives on the street because he or she was having "problems at home", does it usually turn out good for the teenager?

Folks, it's really just about students having to follow teacher directives in school. Really, it is. Students have some free speech rights, but they do not have a full set. This is a simple case of refusal to comply, a suspension offense. They gave him all year to work it out. He refused to comply. He got suspended....His mom is an idiot.

"You stand to show respect...."
Posted by CalifChris

To whom or what would you be showing respect to, CC?

If its to the country, I don't think the country notices whether or not you stand.

If its to the other people in the classroom, well then we've got a problem.

Nobody is under any obligation to demonstrate their allegience to anyone else for any reason.

Its the same as wearing a flag pin on your lapel.

"You stand to show respect...."
Posted by CalifChris

To whom or what would you be showing respect to, CC?

If its to the country, I don't think the country notices whether or not you stand.

If its to the other people in the classroom, well then we've got a problem.

Nobody is under any obligation to demonstrate their allegience to anyone else for any reason.

Its the same as wearing a flag pin on your lapel.

Well we all know that the Constitution is just a Goddamned piece of paper in bushworld.

Posted by 726

A remark that Bush didn't make. It is only in the mind of all you Bush haters.

"...It is only in the mind of all you Bush haters."

Posted by Sniper

Wow.

It reminds me of a bus stop latrine I once didn't visit in Charco San Rafael, Sonora, Mexico.

"Aw, come on, Doc. This sounds blatantly racist. Or is it ethnicist? Whatever."

Neither.

"This is your view of Mexican standards?"

No, it's my recollection of a bus stop latrine in Charco San Rafael, Sonora, Mexico. I've lived in Mexico and have no problem with the country of the people. But the bus stop latrine in Charco San Rafael didn't quite pass the smell test. Neither did one at a convenience store in Tulsa, but that hasn't shaped my ideas about "Oklahoman standards" (whatever that might be).

Hagbard,

As a public school teacher, I wish we'd treat kids as adults, but the law does not. If they get in fights, we don't send them to prison for assault. Same for stealing. Same for threatening people. SAme for cussing people out, which adults can do, but kids in school can not. They are treated by the law as not fully responsible. The law also, however, realizes that if you're gonna ask to public schools to help raise children rather than holding them to adult standards, then you must allow them some parental authority. At the root of authority is: do not intentionally, publicly, as an example to all the other kids, fail to comply. That's all this case is. Very basic.

At the root of authority is: do not intentionally, publicly, as an example to all the other kids, fail to comply. That's all this case is. Very basic.

Posted by jonryker

Except when that thing you are being asked to comply with is arbitrary, directed at certain individuals, or illegal, which is at the heart of the plaintiff's argument, isn't it?

Otherwise, you'd be entirely correct.

"To those who question authority ... "

My parents taught us to respect authority and to understand that it usually speaks from the perspective of experience. However, they also taught us to think and ask questions and not accept flimsy answers. I taught my kids that also. No one in my family became a trouble maker, all became successful in their chosen careers and in life. Even me, and I always questioned authority.

A remark that Bush didn't make. It is only in the mind of all you Bush haters.

And you can be sure of your claim how?

At the root of authority is: do not intentionally, publicly, as an example to all the other kids, fail to comply. That's all this case is. Very basic.

Posted by jonryker

So legality takes the backseat to compliance.

That is so right wing.

This country is starting to unravel, I can forsee our country falling apart as we get farther and farther away from the ideals on which this country was founded.

So a refusal to follow a loyalty oath written 100 years after the nation was founded is akin to the country moving away from the ideals on which the country was founded?

Again, this nation was founded on the notion of inalienable rights, such as freedom of speech. Mandatory loyalty oaths are not free speech, and have been ruled unconstitutional by the activist Supreme Court.

To those who question authority and foster anarchy, when a teenager questions authority and questions and questions and gets into trouble, then lives on the street because he or she was having "problems at home", does it usually turn out good for the teenager?


Many of the signators of the Declaration of Independence died penniless after they lost all of their possessions. Somehow they managed to put their ideals of liberty above their comfort.

It never fails to amaze me how willingly the pants pissers will race to conform, surrender their rights and freedoms to a government agency. The founders must be looking down on you with pride.

"(D)o not intentionally, publicly, as an example to all the other kids, fail to comply."

One consequence is often martyrdom, which is great for all but the martyred person. herm

"Just look what the options were when he (Bush) was running for president."

I for one would love to see Snipe expound on that. Not ideal, perhaps, but decent, capable Americans like Gore and Kerry were swift-boated by low forms of life that now gear up for anyone the popular party nominates in 2008. I wonder who (or what) The Snipe finds admirable. herm

I always believed that the whole reason this country existed was to provide a place where people were not forced do things say a pledge or pray. A place where people were free to do as they damn well pleased, in as much as it did not affect another's ability to do the same. Even if the freedom leads one to dislike this country.

Is anyone else mortified that Jonryker is a school teacher?

I for one would love to see Snipe expound on that.

Not making excuses for anybody but those options sucked ass.

Is anyone else mortified that Jonryker is a school teacher?

He sounds a lot like my high school gym "teacher," who sat around his office just off the gymnasium's basketball couurt with his feet up on the desk, regaling his flock of adoring sycophants with stories about "fightin' the Japs" duirng World War II, while everyone else in the class had to run laps around the basketball court. Every once in a while, the old codger would bestir himself long enough to grab a paddle he'd made some quisling whip out for him in Woodshop, saunter out of the office and slap the ass of whoever happened to be the first to run past him. After that, back to Guadalcanal.

"Students Suspended for Not Saying Pledge"

Here's a suggestion for changing the school's rules: How about requiring students to wear American flag pins pinned not to their shirts but their chests, play "Columbia the Gem of the Ocean" on kazoos at the morning self-criticism session, and then attend a hate rally at the end of the day? Oh, and of course, recite the "Pledge of Allegiance" both forwards and backwards while balancing a rubber ball bearing a likeness of George Washingon on their noses and clapping hands to make the same noise a seal makes when slapping its flippers together?

456,000 for "Buffalo Bob is crazy".

Posted by 101Chairborne at 2008-05-12 04:57 PM


Unfortunately, it isn't about me. Facts are, only Bushs name comes up when you put in the quote:

Its only a goddamn piece of paper

with over 700,000 references.

'This country is starting to unravel, I can forsee our country falling apart as we get farther and farther away from the ideals on which this country was founded. One day, the U.S. will undergo a revolution. Whoever takes over will implement their brand of life and I bet it wont be to you libs liking. Usually, when there is a revolution, peace is taken by force, and those who will be in control wont care about your liberal thinking, things will be back to the way they should be. God I wish I would be here to see it!"

BOAZ'S SKY IS FALLING down and he wants to be around to say "see, I told you so."

As long - I'd guess - as no part of that sky falls on Boaz.

Essentially, Bo, we had our revolution;the corporations are securely in charge.

They buy your vote, Bo, for anything they want, and you don't know you've been bought. They don't give a shit, Bo, if you or your kids stand or sit, recite or shut up, watch porn or go to church, as long as you don't threaten the flow of profit.

"The way they should be indeed." Bo, you deserve that. herm

So the parents will sue the school.

The schools are public.

So the public will pay the price.

Wasn't there another discussion on the DR about the Governments not being able to fund pensions?

The governments are bankrupting. Wonder why?
Lawsuits.

Do people realize that they are suing the government, not just a school, and that to pay the bill of the lawsuit, the PUBLIC will pay.

With this in mind, I must believe that, as the Constitution states, for the General Welfare - we must close all Public Schools. Otherwise, the public will go broke paying out on lawsuits filed by their neighbor.