Oh, this is the honor system of the righties, as long as they can lie and make it look like a good thing everything is all great.

Friendly fire happens not infrequently.
However, the lie is dispecable.

This still doesn't take away form Tillman's heroism.

God Bless Pat Tillman.

"God Bless Pat Tillman."

Pat Tillman was an atheist.

He currently resides in the 'Lake of Fire'.

In the fog of war sometimes our own soldiers are killed by friendly fire or in accidents. In the preparations for D-Day 1500 soldiers were killed.
Maybe you libs who are such experts on military tactics could blame Bush and Cheney for that too.

What's your thoughts BETELJUICE?

FWTHOM-
My thoughts are that an inept and corrupt administration collectively covering its ass in a shameless display of contempt for the checks and balances enshrined in the Constitution by our founders is completely different from a mistake on the ground and in the midst of battle.
My further thoughts are that you aren't as stupid as you seem bent on pretending to be.

Ask Bush!

Unclesam-
Regarding "Ask Bush", he said "no", as information regarding Tillman's death may "implicate Executive Branch confidentiality interests."

And we can't have that in a time of war!

The Military needs to know that people can handle the truth. It will sting, but in the end, the family members would rather know the ugly truth than to never know what happened.

Unclesam, et al -
What you don't understand is that those voices most antithetical to very breath of life in the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights and the Constitution of the United States are in fact the most stalwart defenders of whatever bullshit they heard a drug addled serial divorcer and childless decadent fat tick on the ass of freedom say on the radio today.

"Executive Confidentiality"..Gees can these filthy pigs get out of our White House soon enough. What a fucking disgrace, a true National disgrace!!

An another thing for you right wings assholes, if President Clinton had 10 BLOWJOBS an lied about all them it would be nothing as compared to what this Fucking Administration has done to own Military families, what a fucking disgrace.....

"implicate Executive Branch confidentiality interests."


ie The WH discussed spinning this fraticide into an act of heroism, just as they spun a convoy getting lost into Lynch's raiders.

Pat Tillman was a hero, who was tragically killed by his own guys. After his body was ripped apart with large-caliber rounds, one of his buddies put him out of his misery.

Yes. Those are the kinds of details that the family shouldn't know, and the members of his unit shouldn't have to share.

fat tick on the ass of freedom.....


Well said,

BetelG

RIR, Pat may well have been executed by his unit. Now that's something his unit really shouldn't have to share.

Hey Northguy, RIR doesn't care whether Pat Tillman was murdered or not. He just wants his heroes from the GOP to look good.

"He believed in honor, integrity, loyalty, duty,"

too bad the people who sent him to die for nothing didn't have the same principles.

In the fog of war sometimes our own soldiers are killed by friendly fire or in accidents. In the preparations for D-Day 1500 soldiers were killed.
Maybe you libs who are such experts on military tactics could blame Bush and Cheney for that too.

What's your thoughts BETELJUICE?

Posted by fwthom at 2008-05-05 10:09 PM |

1. You're comparing WW2 to Iraq?
2. Did the gov't cover it up and then lie about it?

you should change your handle to n1athome.

Pat Tillman was a hero, who was tragically killed by his own guys. After his body was ripped apart with large-caliber rounds, one of his buddies put him out of his misery.

Yes. Those are the kinds of details that the family shouldn't know, and the members of his unit shouldn't have to share.

Posted by rightisright

Wrong. Dude, what a fucking joke. What a completely self-righteous comment. So, you make the decision to lie to a family about how their son died in battle... to protect them ??

I'm pretty sure Tillman's family was aware he wasn't going on a camping trip, RIR. The truth is the truth, and lies are lies. And I'm 100% sure the family would call you on your bullshit, if any of them had Drudge Retort accounts.

Apparently you've learned nothing from the Tillman situation. The Tillman family is pissed that the military lied to them about how their son died, and you respond by trying to justify the lie.

I'd rather have the complete 100% truth than to be lied to and then come to find out the facts weeks months or Years later.

Larry Mohr

"Pat Tillman was an atheist.

He currently resides in the 'Lake of Fire'."

i think the bible says "Judge not lest yee be judged yourself."

you have NO idea how God will judge. Don't presume you know God's mind.

One of the worst traits of some religious people is tthat they judge those that are not. When you start to do this, refer to above quote.

When dishonesty is the standard operating procedure it would be more surprising if these families received truthful information than the lies they are told.

You right-wingers who actually defend this administration's lies and deceit in this case should be ashamed of yourselves. There is absolutely no justification in lying about how a person's son/daughter paid the ultimate price. This blatant lying, to frame a more favorable political picture, is par for the Bush Co. course.

Now the right-wingers will paint this mother, who's son gave his life for this country, as an unpatriotic C-word. It's utterly despicable.

RIR, Pat may well have been executed by his unit. Now that's something his unit really shouldn't have to share.

Posted by northguy3 at 2008-05-05 11:44 PM | Reply | Flag:

Hey Northguy, RIR doesn't care whether Pat Tillman was murdered or not. He just wants his heroes from the GOP to look good.

Posted by moder8

* * * *

You guys are both douchebags. You'll believe anything you read on the internet. Couple of retards.

These are the things that happen sometimes. A horrible accident, a guy laying there with his guts hanging open, and his best friend in his unit putting him out of his misery. But doing so is against military regulations and is severely punished under the UCMJ, so nobody talks about it. But it happens.

But no. Liberal douchebags start sniffing around, and figure--hey--I'll bet the Bush people had him executed because he was about to go on this show or that one. Then they run on the internet and post the BS, just to demonstrate to the entire world that they've never spent a day in combat arms branches of the military. So good for you.

Run along. The Daily Kos needs another infusion of libtard douchebaggery, now that you've done your job here.

RIGHTISRIGHT:
hese are the things that happen sometimes. A horrible accident, a guy laying there with his guts hanging open, and his best friend in his unit putting him out of his misery. But doing so is against military regulations and is severely punished under the UCMJ, so nobody talks about it. But it happens.

Dude, you can NOT be for real. They had members of his unit, his CLOSEST friends, on 60 Minutes discussing the actual events. No one put a bullet in his head to put him out of his misery. They mistook him for the enemy and opened fire on him. Those are the words of HIS unit. What you wrote is utter speculation and claptrap.

You right-wingers who actually defend this administration's lies and deceit in this case should be ashamed of yourselves. There is absolutely no justification in lying about how a person's son/daughter paid the ultimate price. This blatant lying, to frame a more favorable political picture, is par for the Bush Co. course.

Now the right-wingers will paint this mother, who's son gave his life for this country, as an unpatriotic C-word. It's utterly despicable.

Posted by tjtull
* * * *

Yes, there is justification sometimes in telling the family less than the whole story about how the son or daughter died. And if there's a rightwinger painting his mother unpatriotic or a "c&nt", show me, and I'll deal with it.

But you're just making it all up. Trying to show something that's there, that really isn't. This is the way life has been in martial units for millenia.

A few years ago I had a good friend killed. He and I were at Basic and at AIT together, and were at another language school later on. His unit was doing something that should never--EVER--be acknowledged publicly, and he died in a horrible way, bled out to death, because he was too far from a hospital to have helped him. The family was told he died in a training accident. Was that deceitful? Yes. Was it the right thing to do? Also yes. So if you want to go around and hang somebody, you'll need to dial back a few years: Clinton was in the White House, and there weren't a lot of liberals around who were ashamed of themselves for the way we in the military were treated in those days.

It's what we sign up for anyway, knowing that the medals that are awarded posthumously won't have the real reasons written on them. Grow up. If you think the Bush Administration is the first to lie about how kids died, or where, or why--you're just an idiot. And there are a lot of idiots posting here today.

Dude, you can NOT be for real. They had members of his unit, his CLOSEST friends, on 60 Minutes discussing the actual events. No one put a bullet in his head to put him out of his misery. They mistook him for the enemy and opened fire on him. Those are the words of HIS unit. What you wrote is utter speculation and claptrap.

Posted by tjtull
* * * *

Care to explain the two rounds put straight through his forehead at close range? Because that's why your idiot friends, above, like to speculate that he was "executed".

I'll grant you, though, that it is speculation. As soon as I read the reports about his uniform being burned, the bullet holes, and so on, my mind jumped to the most logical conclusion as to what must have happened. You liberal douchebag pals did the same, and just assumed that the Bush people dispatched a hit team into the mountains of Afghanistan to execute an Army Ranger, then tried to lie about it afterwards.

You're welcome to your speculations, and I'll offer mine.

New Documents released 7/26/07
July 26: "Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman's forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player's death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press... The doctors- whose names were blacked out- said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away. The documents show that a doctor who autopsied Tillman's body was suspicious of the three gunshot wounds to the forehead. The doctor said he took the unusual step of calling the Army's Human Resources Command and was rebuffed. He then asked an official at the Army's Criminal Investigation Division if the CID would consider opening a criminal case. 'He said he talked to his higher headquarters and they had said no,' the doctor testified.

RIGHTISRIGHT:
It's what we sign up for anyway, knowing that the medals that are awarded posthumously won't have the real reasons written on them. Grow up. If you think the Bush Administration is the first to lie about how kids died, or where, or why--you're just an idiot. And there are a lot of idiots posting here today.

It's far more idiotic to speculate that members of his unit put him out of his misery than it is to try and find out WHY this administration LIED (not told a softer story, LIED) about what happened to Pat. They could have come right out and said it was what it was, a friendly fire ACCIDENT, but they chose to tell the world a lie...and that's what they do best.

I served 22 years in the Air Force and my father served in Vietnam. Lying is never acceptable. EVER!!

RIGHTISRIGHT:

I haven't speculated at all. I said it was friendly fire...which is what it was. Members of his unit said they thought he was an enemy combatant. That is not speculation. The administration lied about it, that's not speculation either.

RIGHTISRIGHT:
Care to explain the two rounds put straight through his forehead at close range? Because that's why your idiot friends, above, like to speculate that he was "executed".

No, I don't care to "speculate" about the rounds at close range. I'll take the word of the soldiers in his unit over the lies the administration perpetrated. Painting this accident as anything other than friendly fire, is a disgusting lie. Buying into the lie and saying it's OK to lie to the parents (for merely political reasons) is just as bad.

You know what I would like to see, a headline that says "Bush administration honest and forthcoming with information".

At this point I just assume they are lying and withholding on everything.

I served 22 years in the Air Force and my father served in Vietnam. Lying is never acceptable. EVER!!

Posted by tjtull
* * * *

Are you telling me, that you don't know of a single person, after 22 years in uniform, who was killed--and his family told a different story? What--were you some clerk in the Pentagon or something the whole time?

What if an air crew goes down in a secret mission: what should the family be told about where and when it happened? What if a commando is killed extracting a flier, both of whom were somewhere they shouldn't have been? Should they run to the New York Times and publish the real story of what went on?
Guess what else happens? A unit is deployed somewhere, and it's classed as training, when it clearly isn't--there are missions being run. Something happens--should the "truth" come out? How would YOU do it? If the family presses for details, would you share with them how one of your closest friends died of horrible burns covering almost his entire body, screaming in agony? Or do you just say, he died suddenly--didn't even know what hit him.

You libs pretend to be the compassionate ones. Try it sometime.

oorah sorry to stray from the topic at hand
the context was that pat tillman was going to the lake of fire

i say we don't know

"How do you rationalize otherwise?"

because God is the most merciful
that means more then you
more then me
more then the dali lama

and the heart of a man is what God will judge
and he will be judged based on his life

we don't know why pat tillman was an athiest (which is why this all started)

but his life will tell that story

God will judge based on his heart and his life to whether or not Tillman is hellbound
or heavenbound.

Leave it to God. We shouldn't as people talk about who is going to heaven and who is going to hell.

worry about our own souls not others.

RIGHTISRIGHT:
Guess what else happens? A unit is deployed somewhere, and it's classed as training, when it clearly isn't--there are missions being run. Something happens--should the "truth" come out? How would YOU do it? If the family presses for details, would you share with them how one of your closest friends died of horrible burns covering almost his entire body, screaming in agony? Or do you just say, he died suddenly--didn't even know what hit him.

Tell me why they'd cover this friendly fire incident up, if not for political reason. You will admit that friendly fire happens all the time in the fog of war. If it's not an unusual event, why make up a detailed story about charging and hill and defending your unit?

What you're saying is, it's OK for the POTUS to make up stories for political reasons. To paint a story of a patriot who gave his life in the defense of his troops...just so it doesn't look bad POLITICALLY. That's OK? I don't think so.

No, I don't care to "speculate" about the rounds at close range. I'll take the word of the soldiers in his unit over the lies the administration perpetrated. Painting this accident as anything other than friendly fire, is a disgusting lie. Buying into the lie and saying it's OK to lie to the parents (for merely political reasons) is just as bad.

Posted by tjtull
* * *

Okay Air Force. When momma asks about the three bullet holes, what would you tell her? Suppose it's as I suggested--he was mortally wounded, in agony, and his closest friend in his unit put him out of his misery--do you tell her that?

What if it were a secret mission? What do you tell her then. Please share--I only was in for 9 years, so I obviously lack your vast experience and wisdom. What would YOU do, were you the commander of the unit? Would you convene a court martial and sentence the kid who shot Tillman in the head to save him half hour of writhing around the ground in mortal agony? Because you're obligated to, under the code.

Or maybe you do what military commanders have done for thousands of years. You bury the kid, try to learn from it, and pray to God it never happens again.

Is it possible that in 22 years in the AF, you don't know a single person who died in an area that could never be acknowledged?

RIGHTISRIGHT:
What if it were a secret mission? What do you tell her then. Please share--I only was in for 9 years, so I obviously lack your vast experience and wisdom. What would YOU do, were you the commander of the unit? Would you convene a court martial and sentence the kid who shot Tillman in the head to save him half hour of writhing around the ground in mortal agony? Because you're obligated to, under the code.

All attempt to diminish my service aside (which I will not address); if it's friendly fire and an accident, there is no culpability. Simply repeating that they put him out of his misery does not make it true. It's still your speculation. It hasn't been proven, members of his unit (more than just ONE) say it was a mistake. No one has said they put him out of his misery. That's something you conjured up in your mind. I'm dealing with the facts of this matter and nothing else. There should be an investigation as to WHY the administration lied about this. Why would they concoct such an elaborate story when they could have told the truth...friendly fire. They painted his death as something other than it was to make it look more heroic. That was a huge mistake. However a soldier loses their lives in a war is heroic. Everything Pat (and every member of the military) did to defend this country is heroic. 9 years, 22 years, 2 years; as long as they are served with honor, any service is something to be proud of.

What you're saying is, it's OK for the POTUS to make up stories for political reasons. To paint a story of a patriot who gave his life in the defense of his troops...
Posted by tjtull

* * * *

Because that's EXACTLY what he was. Every day you put on the uniform, you're volunteering to die for your friends. Not for your country, not for the pussies who are back home, not for your parents or your high school girlfriend. Your friends. NOBODY ELSE IN THE WORLD MATTERS. That's why Tillman raised his hands, to warn off incoming fire directed at his squad. That's why Tillman had his squad up on the ridgeline in the first place. That's why Tillman was in Afghanistan to begin with. Because the closest friends he ever had on planet earth were right there with him.

I knew two of the guys killed in Mogadishu. Unfortunately for posterity, there were camera crews there to record a mob of crazed fiends ripping the guy apart, limb from limb. But were there no film, a good commander would have LIED TO THE FAMILY ABOUT HOW THEIR BOY DIED. WHAT THE HELL IS THE MATTER WITH YOU? If you died violently, and horribly--would you want them to tell your MOTHER about it? Your CHILDREN? Would you want them to close their eyes and picture you, every single night for the rest of THEIR LIVES, being tortured? Having limbs ripped off?

"Lying is never acceptable". BS. How many times have you lied to your wife or girlfriend when she asks whether this or that makes her look fat? Whether you think she's as beautiful today as when you first met? You'll lie about that, probably. But your so-called integrity is too above rushing in to share with the family grisly photos and details about how their boy got his ticket punched?

right is right

one question i have is

if he was mortally wounded and then "put out of his misery"

why do they still call it friendly fire

why not say he was killed in action.

i mean technically if you are mortally wounded and "put out of your misery" you should be treated with the respect of the k.i.a.'s

at least thats what i would think

??

If you're killed in a friendly fire accident during wartime, you're classed as a KIA.

"are you of the opinion (whether just a hunch or based upon Scripture)"

yes i am of the opinion that we'll be suprised alright... but i think we'll be suprised at how merciful God really is. A lifelong of good deeds will not be overshadowed by one thing.


"To the contrary, an avowed atheist would have no interest in (or use for) Heaven. "

no one will be an athiest in front of God :)
you really can't say "i don't believe" when your standing up for judgement haha

and at that last moment before he died
we have NO idea what was going on in his head.

rir
really
well thats good :)
thanks for the info.

Simply repeating that they put him out of his misery does not make it true. It's still your speculation. It hasn't been proven, members of his unit (more than just ONE) say it was a mistake. No one has said they put him out of his misery. That's something you conjured up in your mind. I'm dealing with the facts of this matter and nothing else.
* * *

You weren't here for the first round of this, months ago, when douchebag after liberal douchebag showed up, included excerpts of the small-caliber bullet holes in Tilllman's head, and concluded it was because Bush dispatched a team to assassinate Tillman. For me, the conclusion was more obvious, and more innocent.

I don't diminish your years of service. It just staggers the imagination that you think the military just rushes to share with family and the media the intimate details of how people died, and where, and how. Fifty years ago when the military knocked on doors of kids killed on Normandy or Guadalcanal, and momma asked how did he die, it was always the same story, dressed up to make the kid the hero that he was, even though his last moments might not have been characterized by bravery. She wasn't told he got hit in the carotid artery and bled to death, unable to even breathe for the last ten minutes. Dad didn't have to know that a phosphorous grenade blew up nearby, and set him off like a torch. The guy's kids didn't have to know that the plane daddy went down on wasn't hit by enemy fire at all; some moron forgot to fix the landing gear before takeoff. Hundreds of thousands of people who were told little fictions so that they can know that their boy died a hero. They don't need to know anything else. What the hell difference does it make.

RIGHTISRIGHT:
"Lying is never acceptable". BS. How many times have you lied to your wife or girlfriend when she asks whether this or that makes her look fat? Whether you think she's as beautiful today as when you first met? You'll lie about that, probably. But your so-called integrity is too above rushing in to share with the family grisly photos and details about how their boy got his ticket punched?

How can I argue with this incongruent logic?

You're right...a lie told to your wife is the exact same thing as a lie told by the government of the United States about the friendly fire accident that caused their son's death. Take what I said in the context of this thread. Even if someone is on a secret mission, it's not acceptable to make up a story of how they died. Simply saying they were on a clandestine mission and was killed would suffice. Classified information is classified information. Tillman's death was not classified.

I never said they needed to tell the family the gory details or produce pictures showing how their son was killed. Telling them he was killed by friendly fire would have been sufficient. If they wanted to dig for more details, that would be up to them. Telling them he died charging a ridge-line and wsa killed by the enemy was a lie.

As I said before, any service member that defends this country is a hero. Any member who dies in defense of his country (and his troops) is a hero, no matter how they are killed.

"What the hell difference does it make....?"

If you have to ask such a question there's really very little hope for you.

"If they wanted to dig for more details, that would be up to them..."

Most families wouldn't want them, I think. However, the whole idea of having one more reason to SUSPECT the Armed Force of the United States as being shallow liars elludes me.

"Armed Forces...."

When it comes to awarding Medals of Honor, everyone gets to know the gruesome way the young man died.

RIGHTISRIGHT,

You provided some good examples above of how the government did not LIE to family members but told the truth. They didn't make up stories as to how their sons died, they said they died in action. They didn't actually cover anything up, yet they spared telling the gory details. I'm not saying every detail of his death should be told (as I wrote above) but don't tell a made up story. If my son dies in action, he's a hero, even if it's a friendly fire accident. Don't give him a Silver Star based on imaginary events, just because someone needs to paint him as more heroic...he can't be any more heroic.

Families of fallen military have been told of friendly fire accidents throughout our history. Why turn it into a lie?

Telling them he was killed by friendly fire would have been sufficient.

* * * *

Why? He was killed in an enemy area. He was killed surrounded by enemy on all sides, which is where Rangers go, and which is why his brothers in arms in the ravine were jumpy.

So let me ask you something, honestly: suppose you're a member of an elite unit, dispatched hundreds of miles inside enemy lines. You've successfully prosecuted over the previous days daring missions that destroyed enemy logistics and supply lines, and blown up their bases.

A bullet crashed through your body, and you die. Would you want your parents told that it came from one of your friends? Or would you want them to learn that you died in a vicious firefight with the enemy, protecting your friends? After all, the previous day and week and month you were doing exactly that--you might have died THEN. Or would you want them told, "gee, it was just a screwup, some 19-year-old kid from Tulsa got confused in the dusk, and killed him with a burst from a 50-cal. Once we figured out what was happening we stopped it, but then your boy's guts were hanging all over the place, so one of his buddies shot him in the forehead. The funeral's next week, and we'll give you a flag. Have a nice day."

That would be honest, see. And that's what Zed would have done. Because, presumably, he's a douchebag.

Don't give him a Silver Star based on imaginary events, just because someone needs to paint him as more heroic...he can't be any more heroic.

Families of fallen military have been told of friendly fire accidents throughout our history. Why turn it into a lie?

Posted by tjtull

* * * *

That's where you're wrong. You can't give a guy a Silver Star for getting killed by a friend, even though he deserved one anyway. So you take something he did last week, add it to what he did yesterday, and paint a picture of a kid who lived heroically and died tragically, so that his family can show their friends one of the nation's highest military decorations, with the nice caption that showed he died with his friends, protecting them from the enemy. That much is true anyhow, so why are you bitching about it?

You acknowledge Tillman was a hero. Why begrudge the family a Silver Star?

RIGHTISRIGHT:
Would you want your parents told that it came from one of your friends? Or would you want them to learn that you died in a vicious firefight with the enemy, protecting your friends?

I'd want to be told the truth. Certainly, I'd like to hear about his valor in the face of combat. The fact that he was killed by a friendly would not take away the fact that he served and he was a hero. Conversely, I wouldn't want someone to try to make up a story because they didn't think what he did was "heroic enough". I certainly wouldn't want him to be awarded a medal based on a politically motivated lie.

Families of fallen military have been told of friendly fire accidents throughout our history. Why turn it into a lie?

Posted by tjtull
* * * *

Really? Can you post an example, say, from World War 2 of a family being officially notified that their kid died in a friendly fire accident?

I know it happens during training accidents. I knew a commander at Hood who was killed on one of the ranges by a rifle shot from an M-16--hard to say he was killed by enemy fire; it was a training accident. But had the same thing happened in Kabul, you can better believe he would've gotten the star, a hero's burial, and a long litany of his heroism that day. And guess what else? It all would've been true.

RIGHTISRIGHT:
That's where you're wrong. You can't give a guy a Silver Star for getting killed by a friend, even though he deserved one anyway.

Hold on, did I say GIVE him a Silver Star anyway?

No, I didn't. I said don't give him a Silver Star based on imaginary events. He's still a hero whether he gets a Silver Star or not.

TJ
Out of curiosity, what did you do in the Air Force?

RIGHTISRIGHT:
TJ
Out of curiosity, what did you do in the Air Force?

I was a database administrator, in charge of tracking flying hours/training accomplishments/sortie scheduling/etc. for aircrew members. As such, I worked directly in the flying squadrons, side-by-side with aricrew members.

Zed just sees an inherent value to the truth. If a family wants to know you owe them that respect.

So, I've come out for truth and for respect. You've come out for propaganda. Because, as we know, the military often uses hiding unpleasant facts to their advantage.

I've gotta run.

TJ, please don't misunderstand me. I immensely respect almost anyone who wore the uniform of my country. In fact, the AF got me out of a real jam a couple of times.

But you're not looking at this the way a combat troop does. Sorry, you just don't. The idea that the Bush Administration tried to cover up his death, or put him in for a medal and wrote the citation, is simply preposterous. All that stuff happened at the unit level, and guess what--THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN. It's part of the combat arms culture to want to protect your loved ones from the intimate details of the day-to-day shitstorm that combat operations entails, and the horrible, miserable way your best friends in the world spend their last moments. Those are places civilians don't really belong, and really don't even want to know about.

I actually cried when I learned of Tillman's death. I was on the way into a conference call, and I checked the Drudge Report just to see what was going on, and it was in big red letters across the top of the page. I clicked on the story, and it hadn't been loaded yet. But I knew guys in his unit (actually, it turned out I was wrong about that. My friends had been all transferred out to other SAS units) and was certain that I had lost one or two. I spent the next couple of hours searching for details--where it happened, what unit was it, any other casualties. One of the worst days of my life.

So, I've come out for truth and for respect. You've come out for propaganda. Because, as we know, the military often uses hiding unpleasant facts to their advantage.

Posted by Zed
* * * *

Yes. It's called "respect for the dead", and honoring their memory by not destroying it in front of their loved ones. Try it sometime. Maybe you'll approach what it's like to be an actual human being.
Maybe.

I meant SOG units. Apologies.

RIGHTISRIGHT,

I understand that recommendations for medals CAN come from the unit level. However, they can also come from anyone that has knowledge of an event. Higher ups (SECDEF etc.) can "lean" on units to submit medals if they don't think there have been enough from certain units. Seen it happen from the MAJCOM level...so don't say it doesn't happen that way, I know it does. Thus, I have some background knowledge to say that someone from above the unit level could have leaned on the unit commander to submit a citation for Pat. That's speculation on my part but I saw it happen when I was at a Major Command. SECDEF pushes generals, generals push colonels, colonels push majors and captains. It's not a stretch to think someone from above "prompted" the unit to write a Silver Star. Considering the lies this administration has perpetrated on the world, it's not a stretch to think it came from someone really close to Bush, Rumsfeld/Cheney/younameit.

It's not a stretch to think someone from above "prompted" the unit to write a Silver Star. Considering the lies this administration has perpetrated on the world, it's not a stretch to think it came from someone really close to Bush, Rumsfeld/Cheney/younameit.

Posted by tjtull
* * * *

So what.

In the meantime, I guess we should all be thankful that cold heartless bastards like Zed never had the job of informing the next of kin.

"Mrs. Smith, if you really want to know the truth, it's that your Timmy is dead because his lieutenant couldn't read a map properly. His unit was in the wrong place, and his head got blown off before he even was able to squeeze off a shot. Thanks for the coffee cake."

"Hi Katie, I'm Captain Zed, with news about how your daddy really died. I know he has a nice medal about dying while saving some Army guys who were pinned down by enemy fire. He did that, see, but that actually happened the day before. Your dad died because a cam pin on the rotor assembly fell apart. He was on a routine flight at 5,000 feet and WHAM!--down he went. I wasn't supposed to tell you, but I figured you would want to know how it really all went down, and I have too much integrity to sit on the truth while you just didn't know what really happened."

Thus, I have some background knowledge to say that someone from above the unit level could have leaned on the unit commander to submit a citation for Pat. That's speculation on my part but I saw it happen when I was at a Major Command. SECDEF pushes generals, generals push colonels, colonels push majors and captains. It's not a stretch to think someone from above "prompted" the unit to write a Silver Star. Considering the lies this administration has perpetrated on the world, it's not a stretch to think it came from someone really close to Bush, Rumsfeld/Cheney/younameit.

Posted by tjtull
* * * *

Okay. I've lost track now of all the people who must've been involved in a massive conspiracy to give Pat Tillman a medal you say he didn't really deserve. And because you claim to have seen it at the major command level, you surmise that it must have happened here.

Couple of months back, this same crowd was saying that Bush had Tillman killed to keep him quiet, using some of the same rhetoric you spew out, above. Now Bush and his evil cabal are handing out medals to people who didn't really deserve them, for some kind of publicity stunt.

I'll lump you in with the Buffalo Bob's of the DR, along with the rest of the lunatic left who build these giant conspiratorial castles in the sky. Thanks for playing.

RIGHTISRIGHT:
Okay. I've lost track now of all the people who must've been involved in a massive conspiracy to give Pat Tillman a medal you say he didn't really deserve. And because you claim to have seen it at the major command level, you surmise that it must have happened here.

I didn't say he wasn't deserving of the medal. He may very well have deserved the Silver Star (one of the highest medals given to a combatant) but the citation that gave him the medal was fraudulent. I didn't need to concoct any stories to know that what they wrote on the citation about Pat's death wasn't true.

As far as who prompted them to write it and why...that's purely my speculation, and no more a conspiracy theory than your theory that his buddies put him out of his misery. One thing's for sure, it should be investigated. There are a lot of questions that should be answered. Someone sure lied.

"RIGHTISRIGHT".....You fucking right wing hacks never disappoint. Anything to defend this useless Administration, at what point will you fuck on the right hold this President responsible for anything, he has been there for 7 1/2 years. An as usual your mantra "WELL OTHER ADMINISTRATIONS DID THE SAME THING", GEES YOU FUCKING IDIOT HOLD OLD ARE YOU ANYWAY YOU SOUND LIKE A FUCKING KID...You can spend all day on this one subject you are still a dumb fuck...

"Now Bush and his evil cabal are handing out medals to people who didn't really deserve them"

You may need to recheck your taking points: the Bush administration has admitted it didn't tell the family (its version of) the truth until after the very public funeral. Cold, heartless, and agenda-driven, I'd say.

You're right, Danforth. What they should have done is tell the family the name of the 22-year-old kid who shot Pat Tillman, so he can get hate mail the rest of his life. What they should have done is remove Tillman's chain of command for not rushing to the nearest microphone to inform the world as to exactly what happened and why, even though they themselves probably had no idea. What they should have done is put on hold any medals that were headed Tillman's way until they could fact-check every single bullet point on the citation. What they should have done is turn Pat Tillman's funeral into a litany of friendly-fire incidents.

If you think the Bush Administration is complicit in Tillman's death, say so and why. Be honest. Celisary and Northguy and Betel and Moder8 just think Bush is guilty of a massive coverup. They're insane and stupid, but at least they put it out there, to make it obvious to the whole world that they're just a bunch of partisan retard hacks. What do you think? If you believe Bush had an "agenda" for not telling the family the truth, what was the agenda? Pony up, and tell me what this agenda was.

"Now Bush and his evil cabal are handing out medals to people who didn't really deserve them"

* * * *

By the way, that wasn't my talking point, but TJ's.

After the Speaker of the House presented her request to begin impeachment, what the ending vote?

I'm glad Celisary isn't on my side of anything. What a despicable person.

Celisary is as about as eloquent as a 12 year old kid that is on a sugar high. Celisary obviously went to public school

RIGHTISRIGHT:
By the way, that wasn't my talking point, but TJ's.

Your interpretation, which is something you seem to do rather loosely I might add.

" What they should have done is tell the family the name of the 22-year-old kid who shot Pat Tillman, so he can get hate mail the rest of his life. "

What a pile of bullshit. Names didn't have to be disclosed. A "litany" of friendly-fire accidents didn't need to be rehashed. But the truth is not too much to demand, especially when their son, brother, & friend has given his life. And the complete fabrication regarding the circumstances of his death is deplorable, suggesting there was no honor is his service, due to the manner of his death.

"If you think the Bush Administration is complicit in Tillman's death, say so and why. "

That, I don't know. The problem is, neither does the family, nor the country.

RIGHTISRIGHT:
If you believe Bush had an "agenda" for not telling the family the truth, what was the agenda? Pony up, and tell me what this agenda was.

Pure political motivation. They wanted Pat to be portrayed like the hero everyone knew him to be. In their own, warped, minds they thought that being a casualty from friendly fire wasn't a fate befitting a hero so the conjured up a story of how he went down fighting the enemy, saving his unit, in a blaze of gunfire exchange. It's not only dishonest but it tarnishes the service that Pat gave as well as the sacrifices he has made. It puts a black mark on every military man/woman that has died in combat as a result of friendly fire. They lied to cover it up so they could have (in their estimation) a true hero worthy of a Silver Star. It makes for a real patriotic story. And we all know what a true patriot GWB and Cheney are (one hiding out, and barley even serving, in the AL ANG during Vietnam, the other getting multiple deferments).

In their own, warped, minds they thought that being a casualty from friendly fire wasn't a fate befitting a hero so the conjured up a story of how he went down fighting the enemy, saving his unit, in a blaze of gunfire exchange.
* * *

And that's exactly what did happen. Ask any combat troop how he wants to be remembered to his family and to the country, and he'll say that he wants to be remembered exactly as you've described. Ask one, if you know of any. Friendly fire, freak accidents, dumb mistakes--happen all the time, and end tragically. Your silly quest for the truth in every instance detracts from the missions and the men who carry them out.

"Your silly quest for the truth in every instance detracts from the missions and the men who carry them out."

RIR, is it truly your position that a family who has sacrificed their son for the war effort doesn't deserve the truth?

The truth is that Pat Tillman died fighting for his friends, and saving their lives. That's also how he lived the last few months of his life. That's the truth.

What do you want the family to know, that they don't already? Do you want them to know the names of the kids who blew him apart with 50-cal rounds? What if they ask for the names--should they get them? Should they be able to interview the lieutenants and captains, if they don't like the published repors, to find out what really happened to their own satisfaction? Should they be able to get an attorney, and subpoena witnesses?

There are all kinds of rights that end the second you put on the uniform. And to me, most of that is good. You obviously disagree, so we'll leave it at that. But unless you want to blow the dust off of every medal awarded during every conflict that might have been embellished to have his parents and loved ones feel better about the kid's death, why not just let it go? Godalmighty, do you really prefer the approach of the Zed's and the Celisary's of the world?

*** Mom Wants Answers in Son's Friendly Fire Death ***

......he died for nothing.......

.......sorry Mom.....but at least this time, you got the truth......

RIGHTISRIGHT:
Your silly quest for the truth in every instance detracts from the missions and the men who carry them out.

That is the single most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Giving someone a medal based on false representations of events detracts from the relevance and importance of the medal. Believe me, the men in Pat's unit knew the truth. Reading the lies about his death certainly didn't BOOST their morale or allow them to carry out their missions in a more cohesive manner. It simply told them that lying to cover ones ass was OK.

"Silly quest for the truth" ? Soken like a true Bush supporter. The truth isn't important. Lies are a fundamental way of life. You can tell whatever story you want, dream up WMDs and nuclear programs that don't exist. Divert troops into places where they shouldn't be while the real enemy (Bin Laden) is allowed to escape (Tora Bora) due to ineptly handled missions and lack of ground troops (because they are on their way to find imaginary WMDs). Bungle the entire Iraq invasion by out-pacing your security forces on the way to Baghdad...on and on and on it goes.

No need to continue further. You aren't concerned with the truth and neither is the outgoing administration.

RIGHTISRIGHT:
Ask any combat troop how he wants to be remembered to his family and to the country, and he'll say that he wants to be remembered exactly as you've described. Ask one, if you know of any. Friendly fire, freak accidents, dumb mistakes--happen all the time, and end tragically.

I guaran-fucking-tee you that Pat Tillman wouldn't have wanted someone to make up a story to make his death look more heroic. Nor would ANY other SANE person in the military today. What I'm saying is, they are all heroes and should be remembered as such. They don't need a nice story to make them heroes...and I'm sure becoming a hero was not their ultimate quest.

You've got a pretty strange sense of what is right...no matter what your moniker on here is.

You've got a pretty strange sense of what is right...no matter what your moniker on here is.

Posted by tjtull
* * * *

So do you. Here's how you would've handled it, presumably.

"Hi Mrs. Tillman. I'm CPT Tull. As you've heard, your son was killed in action. But an inquiry has concluded the following. Your son was killed by members of his own unit. Specifically, a Specialist Jackson from Atlanta, and a Sergeant Jones from Montana. They're the ones who shot him first. They were being led by Lieutenant Smith from Miami, who forgot that part of his unit was on the far ridgeline, so he also bears responsibility, obviously.
After getting torn apart by high-caliber rounds fired from a Bradley fighting vehicle, your son lay mortally wounded, he was begging to be put out of his misery. Many of his innards were spread about the ground, and members of his unit knew he was done for. Even if he were to have instantaneously been teleported to Johns Hopkins hospital, it wouldn't have mattered--his liver and both kidneys had been blown out, he was in shock, and he was losing a lot of blood. So in agony, Pat asked someone to please finish him off. A Sergeant Hendricks did so, with a three-round burst to the forehead. Hendricks is originally from Arizona too, if you'd like to find him and say hello."

Or, we could've done it my way: "SPC Tillman was leading a group of Army Rangers in hostile territory, heavily surrounded by enemy Taliban. After days of heavy fighting in which numerous enemy were killed, and after several instances where Tillman heroically saved his team members' lives, he was mortally wounded in action. For conspicuous gallantry, and for extraordinary heroism above and beyond the call of duty, SPC Tillman is posthumously promoted to Corporal, and awarded the Silver Star, with the profound thanks of a greatful nation. Corporal Tillman's actions during Afghanistan operations reflect great credit upon him, his unit, and the United States Army."

You do things your way, I've got mine. Maybe in the soon-to-be Obama administration, we'll convene boards of inquiry to ensure that every single award and decoration is scrubbed of anything that doesn't stand up to your standards of what you think is 'truth', or what the parents should have a right to know about. But I'll bet not. There are some things that are so obviously the right way to do things, that civilian retards shouldn't have a way to screw them up.

His citation read as follows:

"For gallantry in action against an armed enemy, while serving as a Ranger Rifle team Leader during operation Enduring Freedom on 22 April 2004. Caught between the crossfire of an enemy near ambush, Corporal Tillman put himself in the line of devastating enemy fire as he maneuvered his fire team to a covered position from which they could effectively employ their weapons on known enemy positions. His audacious leadership and courageous example under fire inspired his men to fight at great risk to their own personal safety, resulting in the enemy's withdrawal, his platoon's safe passage from the ambush kill zone, and his mortal wound. Corporal Tillman's personal courage, tactical expertise, and professional competence directly contributed to his platoon's overall success and survival. In making the ultimate sacrifice for his team and platoon, Corporal Patrick D. Tillman reflected great credit upon himself, the Joint Task Force, and the United States Army."

* * * *

Maybe it didn't happen that way. Maybe some of those things occurred earlier in the week, during the heavy combat leading up to the 22nd. For me, doesn't matter. The unit should handle what happened, and why, and take remediative action to ensure it doesn't happen again. And they should put his death in the best possible light, so that the kids' parents and wife and kids and brothers and sisters don't have to know all the gory details.

You feel like it should be a 20/20 expose every time a kid is killed, with reporters and family members clamoring to know in every respect what happened. Fine. Free country. If it were me, just put together a good story to protect my comrades in arms, and my family back home, and cut the grass occasionally around my grave.

this man is a hero just by virtue of his self sacrifice

"SPC Bubba was leading a group of Army Rangers in hostile territory, heavily surrounded by enemy Taliban. After days of heavy fighting in which numerous enemy were killed, and after several instances where Bubba heroically saved his team members' lives, he was mortally wounded in action."

"But, we also want to inform you that your heroic son also was caught raping and pillaging a few locals, cutting off ears as souvenirs, and is celebrated for having killed over 200 people, most of them enemy soldiers and some, unfortunately, were civilians - some just little kiddies. It happens."

"We discovered that, although your son died of friendly fire, your son's weapon also killed other soldiers in his unit. We are sharing this information with all the families. As you know, we are sorry for your grief. The other families should be filing lawsuits against your son's estate for the friendly fire. We recommend you sue the other soldier that killed your son. All is fair in love and war."

I think anyone that takes a position a priori that lies are better than the truth is something of a freak.

If a family wants the details, they should be told. My God, the Lying Liars and the Wars They Love.

I think anyone that takes a position a priori that lies are better than the truth is something of a freak.

If a family wants the details, they should be told. My God, the Lying Liars and the Wars They Love.

"Maybe it didn't happen that way (justification for Tillman's award)...."

Attaboy. Before it's all said and done you'll have every military award for valor suspect in the eyes of the general public.

We like heroism. We don't like your strange little imagination substituting for heroism.

All is fair in love and war.

~Petrock

Bullshit.

Guess this means you won't be complaining the next time a mercenary is hung from a bridge and burned or someone gets their head cut off by an extremist?

Torture is okay with you, too?

How about if the Chinese drop an atomic bomb on the US from one of their shiny new nuclear subs?

That "fair" too?

Are the Geneva Conventions worth the paper they are written on to you?

Are anti-nuclear proliferation and other types of treaties worthless?

Are you totally amoral or immoral?

On Topic?

Spud still believe that Pat Tillman was killed before he could publicly come out against madness inherent in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

With so many PSTD cases wandering around in those countries along with the above-the-law mercenary types and special ops guys directed by the CIA and NSA it's a wonder there isn't more of this "friendly fire" than there is.

Be Well.

With people like Zed and Deth around, it's easy to forget that it's the liberals who love the troops, eh?

By the way, I was unaware that NSA directs mercenaries and special combat operations. I learn something every day. LOL.

I think lying in order to justify a military award is about as low as you can get.

It's war and battle. Not a creative writing class.

I think lying in order to justify a military award is about as low as you can get.

It's war and battle. Not a creative writing class.

I'm curious---Who was it exactly that taught you that lies come first?

You can't be expected to understand, Zed. Not your fault.

It was just a simple question. I mean, if I've misstated your position in any way, feel free to correct me.

It just seems to me, reading what what you've written, that lies are more useful to you than the truth.

I'm sick and tired of hearing things
From uptight, short-sighted, narrow-minded hypocritics
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
I've had enough of reading things
By neurotic, psychotic, pig-headed politicians
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth

No short-haired, yellow-bellied, son of tricky dicky
Is gonna mother hubbard soft soap me
With just a pocketful of hope
Money for dope
Money for rope

No short-haired, yellow-bellied, son of tricky dicky
Is gonna mother hubbard soft soap me
With just a pocketful of soap
Money for dope
Money for rope

I'm sick to death of seeing things
From tight-lipped, condescending, mamas little chauvinists
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth now

I've had enough of watching scenes
Of schizophrenic, ego-centric, paranoiac, prima-donnas
All I want is the truth now
Just gimme some truth

No short-haired, yellow-bellied, son of tricky dicky
Is gonna mother hubbard soft soap me
With just a pocketful of soap
It's money for dope
Money for rope

Ah, I'm sick and tired of hearing things
From uptight, short-sighted, narrow-minded hypocrites
All I want is the truth now
Just gimme some truth now

I've had enough of reading things
By neurotic, psychotic, pig-headed politicians
All I want is the truth now
Just gimme some truth now

All I want is the truth now
Just gimme some truth now
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth

John Lennon

It's always been interesting how the neocon mind attempts to turn ordinary concepts of morality on their heads in order to create some sort of perceived advantage.

It's always been interesting how the neocon mind attempts to turn ordinary concepts of morality on their heads in order to create some sort of perceived advantage.

The guy died saving his friends, while deep behind enemy lines, heavily engaged with Taliban forces. That's the truth.

"That's the truth...."

Well, great. Now, why can't we just have all of it, uncensored by those that seem to believe they know and feel better than the rest of us?

Maybe because it's none of your damn business. I'm just telling you the perspective of a guy who was in that line of work. There's a lot we don't share with our families, and don't want them to know about. You think the whole thing should be a great big open book. Well, good for you. I can tell you've never spent a day in uniform, because you'd see that real life in the service isn't anything close to that.

Again, not your fault. They call it the "culture of arms" for a reason; if you've never been part of it, it's all alien to you. Just like it was to me, once.

Suppose you find out exactly what happened--how he was killed, whose rifle fired the fatal shots, under whose orders the whole tragedy unfolded--what would you do with that information? Would you, or would you not, tell the family the name of the kid who shot a former NFL star to pieces?
And what good would it do? Lemme ask you: don't you suppose that there are people in the media who know what really happened, who it was who killed him? And why haven't they rushed to publish an expose of it all?

Culture of arms. Not your fault. And even the journalists who cover this war have a better understanding of it than you do.

My dear RIR----If you're going to sit there and seriously argue with me that military culture is so damned alien from civilian culture that it gets to decide when and how it lies---Then I'd say it's evolved into a dangerous and counter-productive beast.

It would be easier than you think to make your alleged "culture of arms" go away. I believe in citizen-soldiers, not your mutation.

Would you publish the kid's name who shot Tillman, or not? Because if yes, all you would do is subject him to hate mail the rest of his life. And if no, you're willing to do a little censoring of your own.

Simple question.

Would you publish the kid's name who shot Tillman, or not? Because if yes, all you would do is subject him to hate mail the rest of his life. And if no, you're willing to do a little censoring of your own.

Simple question.

You don't get to lie. You aren't that special.

If you're going to sit there and seriously argue with me that military culture is so damned alien from civilian culture that it gets to decide when and how it lies---Then I'd say it's evolved into a dangerous and counter-productive beast.

It would be easier than you think to make your alleged "culture of arms" go away. I believe in citizen-soldiers, not your mutation.

Posted by Zed
* * * *

They didn't lie. And it's the lifestyles of the warrior class that makes yours possible. Not the other way around.

Answer my question. If you knew the name of the kid who killed Tillman, would you tell Tillman's parents? Or not?

"And it's the lifestyles of the warrior class that makes yours possible...."

No and Hell no. Civilians are the dog and the military is the tail. WE make THEM possible. What country were you brought up in?

"Warrior class...'

What a hoot.

In regards to questions, RIR---I think I got mine on the table first. I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

Do you understand English, or are you just afraid to answer the question?

IF YOU KNOW THE NAME OF THE KID WHO KILLED PAT TILLMAN, WOULD YOU TELL HIS PARENTS, OR NOT?

Suppose there's a fire. Three firemen go in, and while inside, one of them makes a mistake that causes the death of one of the others. He feels suicidally awful about what happened, and his captain changes the way they train to ensure it never happens again.

Now the dead firefighter has a nice funeral with a nice award and a presentation by the mayor. But then it turns out--he wasn't burned in the fire at all, but rather died because one of his comrades made a mistake. What do you tell the family? That he didn't die fighting a fire?--he did. Do you tell them who the guy was who caused his death? Do you tell them that he died, covered head to toe with third-degree burns, going into painstaking detail?

Or do you just let him rest in peace?

Simple question, DO YOU TELL THE GUY'S PARENTS WHO BURNED THEIR SON, OR NOT? Come on, show me how much you cherish the TRUTH!!!

One of the worst traits of some religious people is tthat they judge those that are not. When you start to do this, refer to above quote.

Posted by klifferd at 2008-05-06 07:20 AM

I was being facetious.

I'm an atheist.

Religion is bunk.

"And it's the lifestyles of the warrior class that makes yours possible...."

No and Hell no. Civilians are the dog and the military is the tail. WE make THEM possible. What country were you brought up in?

"Warrior class...'

What a hoot.

Posted by Zed
* * * *

I knew you would think so. Please answer my question.

"Do you understand English....?

Ja. Do you understand whose question has precedence?

"I knew you would think so...."

Speaking with you it is possible to see the wisdom of Founding Fathers such as John Adams that a standing army is really more trouble than it's worth.

"Warror class...."

What contrived horse-hockey. What other American "classes" you got there, Sonny?

Maybe you'd like to institute a nobility while you're at it?

They didn't lie. And it's the lifestyles of the warrior class that makes yours possible. Not the other way around.

Answer my question. If you knew the name of the kid who killed Tillman, would you tell Tillman's parents? Or not?

Posted by rightisright at 2008-05-06 05:56 PM

They did lie... read the story. It is not about EVERYONE knowing the EXACT truth. But, at least the parents should not be lied to about their childs death and God forbid that a soldiers death ever be used as this one has been for political gain.

You are barking up the wrong tree this time RiR.

This truth belongs to the people.

Your "Warrior Class" is an Illusion as is all class structure.

You can't even answer one simple, straightforward question--and you expect me to take you seriously about anything else?

Run along, boy. There's more to life than the theoretical, or what you think you read on lefty blogs. There are actual human beings that you pretend to care about, but you don't, really. It was a simple question, and you don't even have the stones to answer it honestly, even in the comfort of your own air-conditioned home. But you expect a bunch of scared kids in the middle of the desert to know exactly what to do, all the time.

That's what I mean. Thanks for making my point for me.

How about you Donnerboy? Are you man enough to answer a very simple question: if you knew the name of the kid who killed Pat Tillman, would you tell his parents?

"You expect me to take you seriously about anything else...."

Frankly, Scarlet, I don't give a damn.

You have to know your ideas have been so damned Tory to date I have to place my hand in my mouth to stop laughing.

This truth belongs to the people.

Your "Warrior Class" is an Illusion as is all class structure.

Posted by donnerboy
* * * *

Of course there are classes. If no, why do I hear about the so-called "class warfare" on the DR all the time? There's the educated class, and the not. There's the entrepreneurial class. There's medicine and Wall Street and police (the thin blue line) and dozens of others, working in jobs and in cultures that nobody outside can truly understand.

And there's a warrior class, too. You might be aware of them--when you see on the Discovery channel the specials featuring training of the SEAL's, or of Rangers, or of fighter pilots, and you sniff derisively at why anyone would subject himself to that for only the privilege of wearing a special tab or two, you admit it to yourself. It's a different class of people. And just because you despise them doesn't mean it isn't real.

You have to know your ideas have been so damned Tory to date I have to place my hand in my mouth to stop laughing.

Posted by Zed
* * * *

You can't even answer a simple question. You're the joke.

Maybe you need more time to think about it. I'm going out for dinner, and I'll check back later. After all, if civilians like you are going to be running the military, it might be a good idea to ask yourself these kind of questions. And, we'll be starting off with easy ones.

IF YOU KNEW THE NAME OF THE KID WHO KILLED PAT TILLMAN, WOULD YOU TELL HIS PARENTS?

There are professional soldiers. Pretty much the way there are professional ditch-diggers. The difference? One group produces things.

"IF YOU KNEW THE NAME OF THE KID WHO KILLED PAT TILLMAN, WOULD YOU TELL HIS PARENTS?"

Sure, why not?

Why is this question so important to you?

Why is the truth so hard for you RiR?

Are we so are willing to send our children to die for lies that we are ready to accept any story as to how they died in order to not think about it? The truth can sometimes be painful but we must go there. We will never fix this thing if we don;t learn to speak the truth about it.

The answer to your question is yes. But, that is no the only thing I would tell them.

I would tell them the truth.

There are professional soldiers. Pretty much the way there are professional ditch-diggers. The difference? One group produces things.

Posted by Zed

* * * *
I know your kind. Saw it up close and personal when I got too near a big anti-war rally in San Francisco in 1990 and I thought they were going to flip my truck over, with me and my wife and my kid in it.

Well, at least you're honest. You despise the military. And you wanna know a little secret? They hate you right back. So you can spare the pretense of giving a shit about Pat Tillman. I know you don't, really.

"I know your kind...."

Oh, please. Baronet RIR holds forth.

"You despise the military...."

Why? Because I disagree with you? You have funny ideas. Lot's of people disagree with you.

"They hate you right back...."

Nope. "They" is us. Family, friends, neighbors. Who or what it is you think fights your wars?

"I know your kind...."

That's RIR for you. Always paints with the broadest brush he can find.

"You despise the military...."

Strawmen is an RIR specialty.

We need to get out of the empire business. It seems what it's bought us is at least some self-described representatives of military culture that seriously think they are the heart and core of American society.

Let's let the Marine Corps bring in the wheat crop and see how long it lasts as an institution.

The truth can sometimes be painful but we must go there. We will never fix this thing if we don;t learn to speak the truth about it.

The answer to your question is yes. But, that is no the only thing I would tell them.

I would tell them the truth.

Posted by donnerboy
* * *

And that would have been the wrong thing to do.

I'm not afraid of truth. There should have been an investigation into his death, so that it wouldn't happen again. My point is that the families back home don't have to know exactly what or how or why. Let the military deal with it in our own way; we feel the loss of guys on our teams more acutely and in a different way than others can understand. We hate the screwups and the breakdowns and the missed assignments more than anyone. But we don't need to tell mom and dad anything besides the fact that their kids died heroes, loved by the comrades, and already deeply missed.

That's RIR for you. Always paints with the broadest brush he can find.

"You despise the military...."

Strawmen is an RIR specialty.

Posted by nullifidian
* * *

Boyd obviously hasn't been paying attention to the thread. Unless he's just being willfully stupid.

Yeah, that's probably it.

"Boyd obviously hasn't been paying attention to the thread. Unless he's just being willfully stupid."

What does Boyd have to do with this?

Oh, I dunno Mr. Hyde.

Do you have a point, and if so, what is it?

"A different view of our Armed Forces than the Stalinists did...."

LOL. I'm just glad I don't have the fascist view of the Armed Forces.

I guess you didn't like that wheat harvest bit. I'll tell you what then. Let the Marines make the tanks they use. Boot camp can start with a course in metallurgy.

LOL. I'm just glad I don't have the fascist view of the Armed Forces.

Posted by Zed
* * *

Good for you. Neither do I. It was our armed forces who smashed fascism, a few years ago. Maybe you read about it in one of your books.

"Neither do I...."

I assume you missed it when the German Army agreed to take a personal oath the Hitler in return for the preservation of it's special place in German society?

I guess you didn't like that wheat harvest bit. I'll tell you what then. Let the Marines make the tanks they use. Boot camp can start with a course in metallurgy.

Posted by Zed
* * * *

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Firemen don't make their own trucks; the police don't make their own firearms; doctors don't build their own MRI machines. So what the hell are you talking about?

"Neither do I...."

I assume you missed it when the German Army agreed to take a personal oath the Hitler in return for the preservation of it's special place in German society?

So. What does that have to do with me?

"So. What does that have to do with me?"

And what does Boyd or "Mr. Hyde" have to do with me?

"I don't understand the point you're trying to make..."

Sure you do. Soldiers are not an automatic function of any society. They are not, in fact, and automatic function of nation-states.

You have farmers first, then you have a military. Maybe. As simple as that.

Umm . . . . . . . okay.

We've got farmers. Were you aware of that? We've got folks who grow stuff?

Answer the question, imbecile.

Yes, RIR. I live next a lot of farmers. They, like I, respect those of their kind as elect to serve in the Armed Forces of the United States.

The point is, none of those that serve I have ever heard of think that soldiering could possibly be more important than farming.

Tail. Dog.

The point is, none of those that serve I have ever heard of think that soldiering could possibly be more important than farming.

Tail. Dog.

Posted by Zed
* * * *

I didn't say it was more important. I said it was a different culture. I'm not a farmer and wouldn't understand farming. Civilians aren't military and don't understand it either.

Love the Nazi references, by the way. Nothing like invoking Godwin's Law when you've run out of interesting things to say. How tiresome.

I guess Rightisright doesn't have the balls to answer a straightforward question.

Apparently RightisRight ran away.

And that would have been the wrong thing to do.

Lying didn't work, did it. Nine military officers, including four generals were disciplined over their actions and their lies. What would have been a decent honest story became sordid, political, with the WH refusing to release documents.

Instead, you not only have these assholes lying about it, using Tillman's fame as a recruiting and propaganda tool, but you have Lt. Col. Ralph Kauzlarich deriding the family saying they can't handle their son's death because they believe he's nothing but "worm-dirt."

I have no sympathy when lies come back and smack the liars and self righteous hypocrites.

If I was the kid that shot Tillman I would go to the parents myself and tell them what happed.

How is that RIR? A real man owns up to his fuck ups.

Another thought, these boys are trained professionals not snot nosed conscripts. As such they should be held accountable when they fuck up. To fire without properly identifying your target is negligence IMHO.

To fire without properly identifying your target is negligence IMHO.

Posted by Salaryman at 2008-05-07 09:58 AM | Reply |


It's not pheasant hunting you dumb fuck.

I'm going out on a very sturdy limb...You've never been in combat have you?

Have you?

Have you?

Posted by Salaryman at 2008-05-07 10:48 AM


I got that one for you, Salary.

No. Right Chairpoodle?

Since 101 won't answer, I will make my point I think any combat vet will tell you keeping a cool head in a firefight is essential to survival. A professional soldier should be expected to keep a cool head which I believe includes identifying you target before firing.

And to set the record straight I have not been in combat.

Another thought, these boys are trained professionals not snot nosed conscripts. As such they should be held accountable when they fuck up. To fire without properly identifying your target is negligence IMHO.

Posted by Salaryman
* * * *

The military does hold them accountable. There's a difference between that, and parading them in front of the cameras, or telling families of the dead the names of the kids who were responsible. Choppers go down. Planes crash. Friendly fire accidents. Is it really your position that the guy who didn't put the pin on the rotor properly should have his name turned over to the media?

As to the rest. Yes, a cool head during combat would be a wonderful thing. Sheer panic, explosions, noise, people running in all different directions--not quite like Hollywood, really. There's an old saying, "No plan survives the first contact with the enemy." If combat were full of cool-headed, rational people, why is the cliche true?

Now I never said anything about cameras and the like. But I do believe that the families should get the truth.

As far as that saying goes I believe it is referring more to the unpredictable way the enemy will react to your actions than soldiers falling apart and getting their buddies killed.

And I would say that the one that survive combat are the cool-headed ones, and the lucky ones. You know what they say if you can't be good be lucky.

Now I never said anything about cameras and the like. But I do believe that the families should get the truth.

* * * *

What's the difference. If the family knows that a Corporal named Brandon Jones from LA, California was responsible for the death of their kid, why wouldn't they call the paper? Or an attorney?

What if a 1LT gets lost, and has his unit in the wrong place with a mission kicks off, and wastes half the team? What if a chute is packed improperly? What if the new coordinates didn't get properly loaded into a GPS system, and a bomb gets dropped in the wrong place and gets good guys killed?
I only ask because I've had friends die in those ways. And there's a reason that the military isn't anxious to share the precise details of how the tragedies unfolded, or who ultimately was responsible. The parents need only be told that their boy is dead, that he served with impeccable distinction, and his unit loved him. And that's it.

That's the way it is. If you want President Obama to transform the military into a big open book, where all questions get asked and answered publicly, and reporters from Good Housekeeping accompany all American troops in the field--then that would be his prerogative, I suppose. Wouldn't even surprise me.

But we don't need to tell mom and dad anything besides the fact that their kids died heroes, loved by the comrades, and already deeply missed.

Posted by rightisright at 2008-05-06 08:21 PM

I am sorry.. you are full of shit my friend.

I am an Ex-Marine and a Father of 3 potential Marines and a Grandfather of many more.

I expect the truth as hard as it is.

I also expect the truth from my leaders as to why we need to go to War and why we are at War and as to how long we will be at War and Who we are at War with and what the Costs of this War will be.

I am tired of the Hollow Lies.

Aren't You?

"Pat Tillman was an atheist.
He currently resides in the 'Lake of Fire'."
KLIFFERD

According to who?
You?
You, being a person who obviously has formed their beliefs from a centuries old book written by superstitious desert dwellers, and revised numerous times by kings, only to be presented to the world as "fact" and demanding it be taken as fact on the basis of faith?

Why do people believe this Middle Eastern nonsense?
These Middle Eastern religions have been the albatross around the neck of humanity for far too long.

Here's an absolute fact for you:
Nobody (as in nobody living at this very moment) knows (for certain) where Pat Tillman has gone, or anyone else who has died.
Nobody.
Nobody.

If you were really a Marine, then you know that there are times the government lies about where you were, and what you were doing. You can be tired of it all you like, but a government that can't keep secret operations a secret won't be around long.

And guess what?--people die in those sometimes.

If your son is in the Marines and died in the same way in which Pat Tillman died--what details would you want to know? Would you want to know the names of the kids who shot him? Would you want to know the name of his friend who finished him off? Would you want their names published in the newspaper? What if your boy didn't die--suppose he was one of the kids who accidentally shot and killed an NFL star?--would your feelings about what should and what should not be told to the world be a little different then?

Lets find out if he was an atheist like Tillman. If so there needs to be a big inquiry.

RiR-

I have kept a lot of secrets in my day-

That is different from out and out lying don't you think?

I told you... you are full of shit. I stand by that.

You are trying to justify a lie. Bush has been trying to justify a lie for 8 years now. I am sick of it. As we all should be by now.

Our children our dying for a lie and our country is taking a beating for a lie and now we deserve to know the truth.

Don't think I am stupid. I am indeed an Ex-Marine and I am sick of what I am seeing this country go through and I cannot stop it. Of course, I understand that certain details of operations that are under way or are still in progress cannot be revealed. Don't be an idiot about it. But, if my son was killed or accidentally killed his partner in a "friendly fire" incident (sick term) don't you think I should know all about it and deserve to? I just paid the highest price for the country...A gave my flesh and blood! And how in the hell do you think I would ever understand what my son will be going through for the rest of his life if I do not know the truth? War is hell and we should NOT be doing this but if we are going to WAR then we need to face the TRUTH. ALL of it.. COFFINS and DEATH and CHAOS and everything that comes with WAR friend and maybe ...just maybe you won't be so eager to jump into one next time.

You are an idiot if you think you can go through life sweeping the truth under the rug as though it does not affect you.

It is why we are the way we are and why we are where we are today in this country.

The truth is painful but the truth does indeed set you free.

then I have every confidence he's in hell based upon what we read in Scripture. It's either that or God has an "atheist wing" behind those pearly gates.

How sad that you waste your time believing in such myths as heaven or hell or pearly gates controlled by a jealous God based dusty texts written by illiterate folks who thought that a God told them the earth was flat and was the Center of the Universe too.

"Written by illiterate folks....."

Yup. Illiterate. That's why they wrote things.

Ehrman also explored the implications of Christianity being a "religion of the book" while being in a culture that was, at its best, 85%-90% illiterate. Unlike our modern western world, the early church was in a context where literacy was not something that was guaranteed or even something that was strived after. An agricultural society that lived and died on the harvest from year to year would be more focused on farming techniques than learning how to cross your i's and dot your t's. The letters of Paul and the gospels of the evangelists, along with other gospels, letters, and the like, were read aloud in church. Not many would be privy to actually reading the texts for themselves. This is why the liturgy and the public reading of Scripture was so central to the early church.

from Misquoting Jesus

illiterate folks don't write things and they have no way of fact checking either. You should know better Zed!

Donnerboy,
Are there things you did in the military that you would prefer your family not know about? Not necessarily combat stuff--just things you did? How about your friends? Any of them, say, have sex with a prostitute? Get high?

Would you tell their wives about it? How about their children? I mean, godalmighty--don't their wives deserve to know if their husband took another woman home one night?

Just wondering what truths set you free, and which truths you don't share, just because sometimes it's best not to. Pat Tillman was killed in combat operations, heroically, far behind enemy lines, protecting his buddies. Now that his parents have learned the WHOLE truth, has it really set them free? From what, exactly?

I am sorry to blaspheme against the Holy Order of the US Military, but there is nothing heroic about getting gunned down by your own men. Heroes do extraordinary things. There is nothing extraordinary about a soldier fighting in battle. He was doing his job. His payment? Several 50 cal rounds delivered by one of his comrades.

Heroic no.

Tragic yes.