On balance, the Clintons have been bad for the party...and I voted for Bubba twice.

Considering how much money Obama has doled out to Super Delegates, they ought to be on his side.

Yeah, it couldn't have anything to do with the fact that he's a better candidate.

Maybe if the Clintons didn't practice "gutter politics," they would have more support.

"Considering how much money Obama has doled out to Super Delegates, they ought to be on his side."

Same logic: Considering how much money Hillary pays her top staff, she ought to be winning.

-Considering how much money Hillary pays her top staff, she ought to be winning.

LOl, prolly so. Although they set fund-raising and vote getting records, Obama did better.

But comparing paid campaign staff to "objective" SDs getting money from the candidates?

Another aspect of the Dem Primary that needs to be reformed, along with getting rid of caucuses, forming regional primaries, and reducing the number of SDs.

Another aspect of the Dem Primary that needs to be reformed, along with getting rid of caucuses, forming regional primaries, and reducing the number of SDs.

Basically reforming anything that isn't working out for Hillary then, eh Corky?

Less SDs would not help Hillary. Caucuses are undemocratic and regional primaries make sense to most people, if not most Drudgies.

"Caucuses are undemocratic"

Actually are caucuses not the most democratic form in the true sense of the ancient Greek concept?

Actually are caucuses not the most democratic form in the true sense of the ancient Greek concept?

Posted by SanAntonioRogue

Yes, as long as rules of argument are followed so that a person is honor bound to go along with the strongest argument. People don't even have the most basic understanding about the rules of logic so a caucus held without adherence to them cannot be worthy of the term democratic.

Mob rule would be more like it.

Thus spake Hagbard the elitist.

And speaking of SD's - another one from Ohio to the Obama column today.

Thus spake Hagbard the elitist.

Posted by SanAntonioRogue

You were the one that brought up the Greeks.

The Greeks you referenced would laugh at your claim... and for the very reasons I gave.

Don't blame me that people have no value for the language they attempt to use or for the rules that govern it.

Believe me, I'm no elitist. But without rules of language, we can't even truly communicate with one another.

so that a person is honor bound to go along with the strongest argument

as deduced by whom?

Less SDs would not help Hillary.

I don't think there should be any SD's, but if most SD's are going to Obama then their elimination would have helped Hillary.

Caucuses are undemocratic and regional primaries make sense to most people

Those two statements are conjecture.


So I'll assume your answer to my question

Basically reforming anything that isn't working out for Hillary then, eh Corky?

is yes.

Well, we all know what ASS-uming makes you. Especially when it isn't neccesary.

So Hagbard, are you saying that every single citizen of ancient Greece was proficient in the rules of logic and language and were thus able to exercise true democracy, while modern Americans are either too stupid or unschooled to do so?

"as deduced by whom?"

Posted by tigerbalm

not by whom, but with what.

That what would be the rules of logic, to the extent that they may be employed. To the extend beyond which they are capable of use, you have entered the realm of subjective impression, and it is really useless to try to persuade someone to agree with you at that point unless you feel that your charisma should have any role in persuasion.

"So Hagbard, are you saying that every single citizen of ancient Greece was proficient in the rules of logic and language and were thus able to exercise true democracy, while modern Americans are either too stupid or unschooled to do so?"

Posted by SanAntonioRogue

What I'm saying is that if you were a member of the senate, you certainly were proficient in it, and if you were not in the senate, you knew well enough that you better learn or else not attempt to engage in it.

Do I think Americans are too stupid in this respect? Absolutely not. Do I think that its value is diminsihed in this country and that as a result we are too unschooled to even attempt it? Often, yes. But we can learn.

"What I'm saying is that if you were a member of the senate, you certainly were proficient in it, and if you were not in the senate, you knew well enough that you better learn or else not attempt to engage in it."

What are you talking about? There was no Greek Senate.

All citizens were members of the assembly and decisions were made by consensus of the entire body. Votes were only taken if the group could not reach consensus.

Hence my point about caucuses actually being much closer to the original concept of democracy.

Oh, well in that case, yes, they had to at least take it more seriously than we do, because their society directly depended on it.

You're something else there Haggy.

eh... if you held Obama to the same standard you're holding me to......

Well, we all know what ASS-uming makes you.

Ooooh...what a thoughtful answer. LOL

You get what you pay for.... well, considering what he has paid for TV ads and SDs in PA, maybe not.

Obama doesn't need practice at gutter politics, he hired the Daley Machine's main man to run his campaign of lies about special interest money and health care.


Posted by Corky


If Clinton had the money, she'd be giving the superdelegates more. Unfortunately her campaign is broke.

On balance, the Clintons have been bad for the party...and I voted for Bubba twice.

Posted by evilpolock at 2008-04-21 10:53 AM | Reply

the bitch is back?

Corky, answer the question?

Seriously?

Answer it?

You have wasted monthes of time and a bazzillion posts, but never have you given a single reason why hillary should be president.

you argue politics, angles, bullshit.

What, is it "her turn"????? The Bob Dole platform?

Is it a return to Camelot?

Why are you such a relentless whore?

Are the candidates flat-out doling money to the SDs? That ain't right. This whole long, drawn-out primary process brings out a bunch of ugly pushing and pulling. Me no likey. Anybody got a better idea?

Why, why, WHY?

Corky

Glad to see Vernie is living up to his well-deserved reputation as an angry old man.

"Considering how much money Obama has doled out to Super Delegates, they ought to be on his side."

Wait, wait, I thought the Superdeglegates were supposed to vote for the person that they thought was the most electable, could hold the "big" states, could hold the "battleground" states, could get the most votes for the dem base, could drink a glass of water upsidedown to cure hiccupts and could feed 20,000 with some loaves and fishes. You know. So now that all the Superdels are going Obama's way it is because they are being paid?

All this spinning is making my head hurt.

Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice, shame on me. The bottom line is that the Clintons have a ton of baggage. It seems clear that voters as well as political operatives and players are mitigating their risk with the Clintons by supporting the next best thing in Obama.

...busts out the popcorn...

On balance, the Clintons have been bad for the party...and I voted for Bubba twice.

Posted by evilpolock at 2008-04-21 10:53 AM | Repl


you know when I read this sort of thing and I have a lot lately, it is just amazing. it wasnt that long ago that bill clinton was the greatest politician in the history of politics and hillary was the smartest woman in the world.
WHAT HAPPENED.....is obama the only reason that many of you have abandoned these two democrat icons? or where they flawed the whole time anyway?

and so I bring it up again.

HEY ARE YOU GUYS WHO ARGUED WITH ME ABOUT PARTY OVER COUNTRY ON THE OTHER THREAD READING THIS..

here is evil saying it....BAD FOR THE PARTY....and so he is now voting for obama.....BECAUSE CLINTON WAS BAD FOR THE PARTY??????.....but what about the COUNTRY?????????????????????

"Are the candidates flat-out doling money to the SDs?"

No. Almost all of the so-called "doling out" was in the form of campaign contributions to help out fellow Dems get elected/reelected prior to the 2006 election.

and now being completely serious.....THINK ABOUT IT...not long ago all of this anticlinton shit would have been laughed off the site....
so what happened?


and I SAY AGAIN>......what irony...or is it hypocritical..

here is the liberal socialist party called democrats who are all about diversity and seeing that ALL people get whatever they want.....people that would just has soon have no one make over a million or so a year..UNLESS IT WAS THEM....and who can blame them for that?.......anyway.....

here is the party all shitfaced for fairness and diversity and THEY Are the party of superdelegates......I just dont get that....and since she might have already won if it was winner take all in the large states she has won, would hillary vote for that next time.......

this cycle has really brought out some seriously INTERESTING things.

Dunno BL2. I voted Perot and Dole, since the Clinton's were lying douches. Always were. But, Bush has been far, far worse than either of them. And, yes, I like Obama a whole damned lot.

Ron Paul has a brain. Why can't you Americans vote for someone with a brain?

Ron Paul has a brain. Why can't you Americans vote for someone with a brain?

Sorry, but despite what the Wizard told you, a head filled with sawdust and pins doesn't make a "brain".

Ron Paul has a brain. Why can't you Americans vote for someone with a brain?

Too many American are not only ignorant but proud of their own ignorance as well.

Is creepy.

Ron Paul at the Republican debates looked like the only adult in the room.

Sad to watch the moderators and all the corporate whore candidates gang up on him whenever he made a point (which wasn't that often cos they mostly just didn't let him speak).

On Topic?

The Super Delegates know that if they hand this thing over to Hillary the blowback will be immense and may well lead to John McCain gaining the Presidency.

Then they are pretty much all out of a job.

Be Well.

/Okay really gone now.

"WHAT HAPPENED.....is obama the only reason that many of you have abandoned these two democrat icons? or where they flawed the whole time anyway?"

As we still pay 10 billion a month to support the occupation of Iraq Hillary Clinton now tells us she is against the war.
As we watch our economy spinning in the toilet we hear Hillary Clinton tell us she was against NAFTA which we know now is simply not true.

The Clintons were so much better than the ilk they replaced but this time we need more than just REpublican-lite, we want real change. Either Obama will give it to us or in four years it will be someone even more likely to give the nation what it needs. If Republicans truely fear liberals then they ought to support Obama because he is the least liberal you are likely to see elected for quite some time. The next round will bring far more radical promises and demands from the people.

Fuck Chelsea Clinton,

If that little girl can't play politics with the big guns, then she needs to take her whiney ass back to elitist-ville. I'd be happy to give her a boot in the ass to get her started.

Nah no Thank You that would be screwing the neice of Dubya and that's just not right.

Larry Mohr

I can't believe that conversation didn't turn ugly.

Hey Wis...


Do you still have that 'picture' of Kevin23?


Kev was getting pretty nasty with Grendel last night and I think that Grendel would love to see what Kev looks like.

Kev was getting pretty nasty with Grendel last night and I think that Grendel would love to see what Kev looks like.

Posted by JeffJ

Jeff, I can't seem to remember it. What thread was he being a dick on?

Wis,


He was getting pretty beat-up by quite a few Drudgies that day.


The picture you posted was of a fairly young guy (in his 20's0) with long hair, a thin moustache and a bit of a goatee.

It was just a link on that thread and I lauged uproariously.

Wis,


Monte was posting a couple of pics as well, but yours seemed to really personify the guy.

Wis,

He was bickering with just about everyone on that thread.


He concluded his postings with trying to 'bless' everybody, which a few of us found to be creepy.


I think this thread was about 2-3 months ago.

Wis,

Where in the heck is Hans right now???


He'd have that thread linked in about 30 seconds.

He'd have that thread linked in about 30 seconds.

Posted by JeffJ

I went back to look for it, and there is nothing after mid-March. I do remember that night.

Wis,

It was an afternoon exchange.


That pic you linked almost had me fall out-of my chair.

It was the perfect 'visual' for his DR demeanor that day.

I'll see if I can find it - I just thought you might have archived that picture.

Monte, are you sure? I could have swore this is Kev.
z.about.com
Posted by wisgod at 2008-03-13 05:05 PM | Reply
Bush Hides Pentagon Report

Larry Mohr

BushLover2.
For once I am in agreement with you.

If trends continue as they are, there will be a new REPUBLICAN President. I know that six Hillary Clinton votes in my house will now be McCain votes.

I still don't know ANYONE in my neighborhood except one Black family that will be voting for Nobama if he is the candidate.

Because folks here in Illinois KNOW what a useless piece of human waste Mayor Daley's little puppet is.

Not because he is HALF-Black, but because he is a Frankenstein's Monster built in the Daley CROOK County Democratic Machine's labratory.

Anyone who saw his "eloquent" oratory at the Penn debate and still would vote for him would vote for a head of cabbage if the Democratic Machine told them to.

So the big question is, who will be the new Vice-President McCain chooses? That is the only thing that can lose this election for him because Obama will NEVER become President of the USA.

The African Union maybe, since he worships at the alter of his church that doesn't display an American Flag but DOES display a Pan-African Flag and has done so for the past 20 years.

I know I am not concerned with what flag he wears on his lapel but which one he carries in his heart and it ISN'T the American Flag!

This "man" doesn't even believe that the Star Spangled Banner should be our national anthem. He wants "I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing" to be the new national anthem.

Here is his direct quote:
"As I've said about the flag pin, I don't want to be perceived as taking sides," Obama said. "There are a lot of people in the world to whom the American flag is a symbol of oppression. And the anthem itself conveys a war-like message. You know, the bombs bursting in air and all. It should be swapped for something less parochial and less bellicose. I like the song 'I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing.' If that were our anthem, then I might salute it."

THAT is the Frankensteinian Monster that the Democrat elitists are flocking to support...

Ron Paul has a brain. Why can't you Americans vote for someone with a brain?

Sorry, at his very best he is still a Republican.

Danforth,
You also obviously haven't actually READ what is in Urbanlegends since it doesn't speak to the Pan-Africa issue at all. Not about the Pan-African flag which I have personally seen on their alter before they took the picture down to protect their little Prince...
Nor does it speak at all about his feelings about the Anthem. Only that the song title was a spoof.
BUT there are at least 3 or 4 Anthems written in honor of Obama, by Twisted Sister and various others.
There is also one that is a combination of the 193 anthems of the various nations in the World that is being pushed to replace the National Anthem.

Also, did you notice that your hero who refused to wear a FLAG lapel pin in protestation of the Iraq War WORE one at a townhall meeting in Pennsylvania the other day?
Now there is a man who stands on his principals, at least until he has to turn them in for more votes...

and San,
You can call whatever you want into question.
I could care less.
YOU obviously haven't read what SNOPES.COM has written since not a word about what I cited is in the snopes article. So it doesn't refute a single word I said. It only says that he didn't place his hand over his heart during the national anthem, not how he FELT about the anthem itself.

I KNOW what Nobama is since we have had the "benefit" of his State Senatorship for EIGHT years.
I suppose it is a lie that his wife is a Vice-President of the University of Chicago Hospital?
That this hospital, even though it is supposed to be "Not For Profit", made a profit of almost $200 MILLION last year?
That this hospital was cited by the Department of Health and Human Sevices for patient dumping of poor Black patients, most of whom are resident of Obama's former Senate District?
That his wife was a director of Treehouse Foods and voted to close a plant in Aurora Colorado, putting 153 mostly minority workers out of jobs (more than 10% of the town's population)?
That WAL-MART is Treehouse Food's BIGGEST customers?
That Obama LIED about how much Antoin Rezko contributed to his political campaigns, saying he only contributed $40,000 and now admitting that the latest count is $240,000?

That she didn't get EITHER job UNTIL Nobama became a US Senator?
So tell me how many of the above statements are not true.... because they are ALL true...
And I have dozens more but it is like throwing diamonds before pigs to bother to tell Obama worshippers the truth.

As to being embarrassed, the only thing I am embarrassed about is that the Democrat party thinks that Nobama is the best they can come up with for President. Not that Clinton is any prize either, but she is light years better than this buffoon.

"Also, did you notice that your hero who refused to wear a FLAG lapel pin in protestation of the Iraq War WORE one at a townhall meeting in Pennsylvania the other day?"

Another lie Shy. Obama NEVER said he refused to wear a flag lapel pin to protest the Iraq war. Never. He said he believed that wearing a flag pin was not an indicator of one's patriotism.

And if you bothered to stay informed on anything, you would know that he put that flag pin on because it was handed to him by a veteran at the meeting. He wore it to honor him.

And read the Snopes piece again. You're full of it on so many levels.

Sorry Charlie,

Only the Best Smelling Tuna can be Star Kissed.

San,

I never, no I never... I never, no I never...
I never, well hardly ever...

Those are lyrics to a song and appropriate accompanyment to the load of BS you are shovelling to defend your hero.

October 3, 2007:
In a television interview on Wednesday, Mr. Obama was asked why he wasn't wearing an American flag on his suit. "Is this a fashion statement? Those have been on politicians since Sept. 12, 2001." a reporter for KCRG-TV in Cedar Rapids said.
"The truth is that right after 9/11 I had a pin," Mr. Obama replied. "Shortly after 9/11, particularly because as we're talking about the Iraq war, that became a substitute for, I think, true patriotism, which is speaking out on issues that are of importance to our national security.
"I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest," he added. "Instead I'm gonna' try to tell the American people what I believe what will make this country great and hopefully that will be a testimony to my patriotism."

So its it NEVER, or just hardly ever that he said this?

Remember that there is a differance between a lie, which is something I would say if I KNEW it wasn't true and something I might be mistaken about.
In this case, neither is the case. I definately didn't lie and the quote from Obama proves that I am not likely to be mistaken. Though like any statement, different people can interpret what was said in different ways.

That is called an argument, not a LIE!

San,
As far as being full of it on so many levels, you couldn't be more correct. My wisdom really is astounding. It even amazes me.
I'm glad you see that.

Just look upon me as your fountain of wisdom.

Are you really from San Antonio? I have a nephew who lives near there, in New Braunfels. Too damn hot for me. Maybe it is cooking your brain so you can't think straight ;-]