This is a wonderful example of:

1. how to lie with statistics

The high school graduation rate is much, much higher when you factor in students at private schools and home school. These represent parents willing to make huge sacrifices in money and time, by keeping their children out of governmet schools.

Powell's failure rates are for the parents who regard school as free day care, and do not really care what happens to their children. That's why they give them to the Village (Oops .... the government) to raise.

2. how liberal indoctrination camps even fail liberals

Liberals started taking over public schools in the mid-60s, changing curriculums into crap and PC sensitivity.

Why learn math when you can piss away months learning about White Guilt toward Indians, blacks or (insert victim group here)?

science is hard werk. Let's talk about birth control and 'responsible' sex.

And that damn English (spelling, grammer, literature) is just sooooooo Eurocentric!

Thank you public schools for training a new generation of people who will work at Taco Bell, Wal-Mart, and load cargo trucks! My children will need the cheap labor (wages are based on skills). Good job!

No Child Left Behind is more successful than we previously thought!

I wonder, why no racial break down of those numbers? Instead they give us "urban" and "suburban".

No Child Left Behind is more successful than we previously thought!

Posted by 726 at 2008-04-02 11:05 AM | Reply

Thank you, Bush, for allowing Ted Kennedy to write this atrocious law.

And lets not forget allowing Neil Bush to profit off of it as well Verm!

Is the 30 percent for the swat teams or just the unarmed gaurds, Kerrin?

Lesson? Boog's hate school.

It's really simple, when your parents don't give a shit about you, you, in turn, don't give a shit about you or much of anyone else either.

only 27 percent passing in biology

Which is one of the reasons for teen pregnancy.

OTOH, listening to Powell pontificate on anything makes me ill. He's been pumping phony stories since My Lai. Every morning he should have to get up and watch his presentation to the UN, and then STFU.

Good example of socialism applied to education.

Eliminate public schools.

Well, when you're dealing with "feelings" to the derogation of education, you are sated early on, and you "feel good" about yourself regardless of what and how you do.

And "in the community," there are few role models to demonstrate the benefits of education.

You can go to "graduate school," the prison system, early on as you are precocious, and have already acquired necessary social skills to pursue your line of endeavor.

Readin', Ritin', and Crimin'.

Maybe this country needs to encourage return of inner city residents back to the rural areas, where there was a supportive social network that did not equate sophistication with certain behaviors.

In the "black community" children are ridiculed for "acting white." That is they are criticized for being ambitious, attending school regularly, trying to learn, displaying intelligence, and other activities that in most communities would be considered positive traits.

Rather than being called to task for this, these critics are indulged, and the lefties concoct every excuse and justification for those "acting black," and for their alienation from the values of the larger society.

I suggest that some of you apologists for self-destructive black attitudes and conduct, get a thesaurus and find the antonyms for what constitutes "acting white." Then "acting black" will be found to be favoring sloth, laziness, self-indulgence, stupidity, and failure. But "liberals" will never call black people to account for their shortcomings and criticize them. Rather they enter into a litany the leftist version of of history with its concocted emphases to justify current behavior. And so with a bag full of excuses and compensation, the failures are content to celebrate their status and persist in their way of life.

Hey man, it's all relative. Deconstructionists don't distinguish. But even a deconstructionist can count the number of bushels of grain certain conduct can produce as contrasted to other conduct. But insulated from reality by the societal structure, the deconstructionists can indulge their inanities. And the black people can suffer the consequences of their behavior in destabilized and dangerous communities.

You're right Johnson. Better to over-generalize and categorically admonish people solely because they share the same skin color with some who you feel exhibit "bad" traits. When has that ever gone wrong?

"Eliminate public schools."

Posted by shirtsbyeric

Such a well-reasoned response to a complex and important issue. Kudos!

This is not simply a "black" issue as some posts here seem to indicate. There are plenty of white kids not finishing HS too. Poverty is probably one of the causes but obviously, some poor kids do well and succeed. I think we have a generation of parents incapable of taking care of themselves, much less children. We will never solve this problem by blaming "liberals" or "conservatives."
I think that a breakdown of "community" and "the family" is the root cause of this problem. We will need to rebuild those "institutions" before we will turn this problem around. I worry about the future of this country, I doubt that my children will be able to live out their lives in relative safety and prosperity.

Instead of addressing their failure ...libs are going after home schoolers and charter schools. They fight too and nail to keep kids locked in this downward gov school spiral instead of allowing school choice.

Mo money! Mo money!

Night...I'm outa here.

Did anyone find it odd that the story didn't provide the list of cities? What kind of journalism is that?

What kind of journalism is that?


Shoddy.

Possibly biased - I wonder how many of those 17 cities have been run by Democrats? I know Detroit is 1 of those 17 and it has been run by Democrats for decades, at least.

Not that the failure of those cities can be completely tied to their elected leaders - the problems inherent in cities like Detroit run far deeper than elected government.

Good example of socialism applied to education.

Posted by Ray

And then they bitch about home schooling.

Agreed, Jeff. It also proves that the motive for the story was not to provide facts, but instead to be just another generally negative story about the direction our country is going.

mr token slam dunk has abdicated the right to speak publicly as an authority

"it is about liberal social welfare programs contributing to the destruction of families"

See, there you go trying to make this a Liberal-conservative problem. It simply isn't. You can look at other nations far more socialistic than the US doing far better at educating their kids.
You can blame "hip hop" culture and associate that with evil "libruls" while corporate executives make millions selling the stuff.
NEA, that is so dumb it isn't even worth responding to.

MOre likely reasons for the problems....

Employment prospects for HS graduates don't seem sufficient to justify the effort to lots of kids.

Parents are so defeated by life that the kids just inherit that same attitude.

Parents divorced....often as not because of financial problems which experts say are the #1 cause of divorce.

Lack of community role models because of the same problems that the parents have.

Drugs, gangs, violence, sexual abuse, etc. going on right in the schools.

"I know Detroit is 1 of those 17 and it has been run by Democrats for decades, at least."

Yeah, and it is the fault of the Democrats that Detroit's auto industry jobs are gone. For crying out loud, you don't really want to solve problems or even understand them, it is only about bashing the "other team."

"Yeah, and it is the fault of the Democrats that Detroit's auto industry jobs are gone."

Well, technically, it's the autoworkers' union's fault that Detroit's auto industry jobs are gone. You were close though.

Here's the deal: teachers in certain grades must 'teach to the test' now so school districts score a certain number aggregate on the Federally mandated tests. Students who do NOT score adequately on the tests (and therefore bring the district scores down) are sent back a grade. Students who, for one reason or another continue to not score well are - let's put it this way - NOT encouraged to continue with their high school educations. Since the teachers are only teaching to the test - not brushing up on basics, etc. - and since most of these kids come from lower income families who do not have money for tutoring, the children end up dropping out of school and off the charts.

Now that vocational education schools are in serious danger of being closed due to lack of federal funding (if a vocational education course cannot fulfill a requirement for a college-prep science or math course the program is discontinued. Only vocational courses that qualify for science/math credits will continue or the vocational school will not receive Federal funding for its' programs)we are going to be seeing some serious situations develop as young people drop out of high school and have NO preparation for earning a living wage in the 'real world'. Yep, every child left smack dab in the DIRT.

I am going to play a Danforth and State how is it the fault of the Auto Workers Union on the failed Management decisions made by the big 3 AutoMakers?? Funny dat Be.

Larry Mohr

unions had nothing to do with detroits problems shit management did

For crying out loud, you don't really want to solve problems or even understand them, it is only about bashing the "other team."

Posted by danni

I personally don't think it has to do with politics. Milwaukee is at 42%, and they've stuck alot of money into the schools. In our case, the problem is the black inner city. And nobody seems to know how to motivate the kids or parents. It's a shame.

did not the black inter city explode from chicago because of large welfare benefits? politics

"And nobody seems to know how to motivate the kids or parents."

Yep, and throwing money at the problem isn't going to solve it. Destroying the public school system won't either. Actually, I don;t think very much of the problem is anything schools can solve. We have a huge population of dysfunctional people. I don't have the answer but it won't come from politicians.

i remember a time when chichago judges gave out parole and a bus ticket to milwaukee

Did the Unions design those pieces of Shi-ite Detroit makes?

The Detroit manufacturing model is sadly out-of-date.

The old model of paying $50K + full benies for a line worker is simply no longer competitive in today's market. Don't get me wrong - I wish it were. As a personal matter, I know a lot of boomers who made a nice living off of this model. Regrettably, it's no longer the lucrative employment field that it once was. Yeah, we can engage in fierce protectionism (high tariffs on imports and other Draconian measures designed to preserve the inflated value of the American manufacturing worker) which will sustain status quo a bit longer. However, in the long-run, such tactics will only amplify the inevitable crash.

Fact is, developing countries, like China, have a surplus of capable workers willing to perform the exact same work, for a fraction of the wage.

Ultimately, the law of supply and demand is a bitch.

detroit school district spends $13,529 per student in 2005. This is about 30% more than the state average.


Posted by kerrin57

Sounds like they're not spending enough. If the students in Detroit need more intensive, expensive work, then that's what they should get.

And could any of you righties just cumming all over yourself in your race to bash Liberals like to tell me what the rates like this were for those magical times you guys like to crow about in the 40s or 50s? What were the dropout rates then? How many kids even went to school? How many were even required to? This is a notional problem, but one that's not going to be saved by bashing Liberals.
Tell me, which countries in the world have the best education systems? I'd bet it's the socialist ones. In your dream world where the free market is in charge of education and there were no "Government" schools, I guarantee things would be a lot worse.

did not the black inter city explode from chicago because of large welfare benefits? politics

Posted by Georgeisadrunk

Maybe, but our old welfare system went away 10-12 years ago.

there is also a little matter of new and highly efficient plants. also, a small matter is a design that people want to drive and a machine that is valuable and holds its value. It isnt the model as Japanese cars made by unions in the U S out sell American made cars.

"did not the black inter city explode from chicago because of large welfare benefits? politics"

or is it because of the large population of people not equipped to take care of themselves in an urban environment. Many families migrated to cities for manufacturing jobs from share cropping farms. So, if you want to blame welfare we could go back earlier and make just as good of a case that had the former slaves been given "40 acres and a mule" they would have become land owning farmers and their descendants would still own that land and be successful. I think that blaming welfare is a convenient scape goat which ignores the fact that at the same time that welfare was becoming an important means of family support manufacturing jobs were disappearing. I will admit that welfare played a part of the disintegration of many poor families but it was not the only or even necessarily the biggest reason. I have known many kids who's parents worked but who's homelife was still dysfunctional.

Ultimately, the law of supply and demand is a bitch.

Posted by JeffJ

Which is why we banded together and gave power to the Government to act in ways no individual could on the behalf of all of us, to control corporations and robber-barons. Too bad they've forgotten that role.

Do you wish a return to the industrial Revolution days, when manufacturers had the sole power to determine what labor was worth?

Here is the list of the top 50 cities with the worst graduation rates being at the bottom of the list.:

(Notice that the number of students who just dropped out of school entirely are not even included in these figures so the real number of high school non-graduates is even higher.)

TOP 50 CITIES

Mesa, Ariz. Mesa Unified District - 77.1 -
San Jose, Calif. San Jose Unified - 77.0 -
Nashville, Tenn. Nashville-Davidson Co. School Dist. - 77.0 -
Colorado Springs, Colo. Colorado Springs School District - 76.0 -
San Francisco San Francisco Unified - 73.1 -
Tucson, Ariz. Tucson Unified District - 71.7 -
Seattle Seattle School District - 67.6 -
Virginia Beach, Va. Virginia Beach City Public Schools - 67.4 -
Sacramento, Calif. Sacramento City Unified - 66.7 -
Honolulu Hawaii Department of Education - 64.1 -
Louisville, Ky. Jefferson County School District - 63.7 -
Long Beach, Calif. Long Beach Unified - 63.5 -
Arlington, Texas Arlington ISD - 62.7 -
Memphis, Tenn. Memphis City School District - 61.7 -
San Diego San Diego Unified - 61.6 -
Albuquerque, N.M. Albuquerque Public Schools - 60.8 -
El Paso, Texas El Paso ISD - 60.5 -
Charlotte, N.C. Charlotte-Mecklenburg Schools - 59.8 -
Wichita, Kan. Wichita Public Schools - 59.6 -
Phoenix Phoenix Union High School District - 58.3 -
Austin, Texas Austin ISD - 58.2 -
Washington District of Columbia Public Schools - 58.2 -
Fresno, Calif. Fresno Unified - 57.4 -
Boston Boston Public Schools - 57.0 -
Fort Worth, Texas Fort Worth ISD - 55.5 -
Omaha, Neb. Omaha Public Schools - 55.1 -
Houston Houston ISD - 54.6 -
Portland, Ore. Portland School District - 53.6 -
Las Vegas Clark County School District - 53.1 -
San Antonio San Antonio ISD - 51.9 -
Chicago City of Chicago School District - 51.5 -
Tulsa, Okla. Tulsa Public Schools - 50.6 -
Jacksonville, Fla. Duval County School District - 50.2 -
Philadelphia Philadelphia City School District - 49.6 -
Miami Miami-Dade County School District - 49.0 -
Oklahoma City Oklahoma City Public Schools - 47.5 -
Denver Denver County School District - 46.3 -
Milwaukee Milwaukee Public Schools - 46.1 -
Atlanta Atlanta City School District - 46.0 -
Kansas City, Mo. Kansas City School District - 45.7 -
Oakland, Calif. Oakland Unified - 45.6 -
Los Angeles Los Angeles Unified - 45.3 -
New York New York City Public Schools - 45.2 -
Dallas Dallas ISD - 44.4 -
Minneapolis, Minn. Minneapolis Public Schools - 43.7 -
Columbus, Ohio Columbus Public Schools - 40.9 -
Baltimore Baltimore City Public School System - 34.6 -
Cleveland Cleveland Municipal City Sch.Dist. - 34.1 -
Indianapolis Indianapolis Public Schools - 30.5 -
Detroit Detroit City School District - 24.9 -


50-City Average - 51.8 -

Source: America's Promise Alliance. ISD stands for Independent School District.

"Well, technically, it's the autoworkers' union's fault that Detroit's auto industry jobs are gone"

Because workers signed the contract, right?

The same contract offered by management, and signed by management?

The same management who chooses what cars to build, when to change lines, what vendors to patronize, what plants to build, & how to market? The management who authorizes dealers, sets the price structure, decides what rebates to offer & when, names the vehicles and makes every other decision down to what tires will go on what brands...that management?

Yep, it's obviously the fault of the only side that actually kept their end of the bargain.

in the case of milwaukee, the flood gates opened from chicago. a commute just up the road

Ultimately, the law of supply and demand is a bitch.

Posted by JeffJ at 2008-04-02 06:17 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag:

No it's actually corporate greed that is ruining the Country. You can claim it's supply and Demand all You want to but when Management gets mega bucks compared to the penies the workers get it's painfully obvious. American Companies are failing America because they worry about their bottom lines more than America. Back in the 60's You had Management living along side the average worker and most often than not they were friends. Not so anymore. It's all about Me Me Me Me what is in it for Me me me me me NOT whats in it for America as a whole.

Larry Mohr

"Yeah, we can engage in fierce protectionism (high tariffs on imports and other Draconian measures designed to preserve the inflated value of the American manufacturing worker) which will sustain status quo a bit longer."

Right now China charges a 22% tariff on an auto imported into China. We charge a 2% tariff.
This nation has ALWAYS had tariffs, this nation started out with tariffs as our main form of taxation. As little as a couple decades ago tariffs still provided 33% of the necessary federal tax revenue. Most of our "competitors" charge tariffs on our goods, we PRETEND that it is "free trade" which we are supporting by not having tariffs but it isn't really. It is American companies, manufacturing goods in foreign countries and then shipping them back into the US tariff free.
WE should calculate the amount of labor in a product and charge the difference saved between the labor cost in the US to create that product and the labor cost actually spent to create that product.
Our corporations are earning huge profits manufacturing goods without our labor. They should either pay to get those products back into our market or they should shove them where the sun don't shine.

Posted by danni at 2008-04-02 06:23 PM

That was solid, Danni.



TFD,


Do you wish a return to the industrial Revolution days, when manufacturers had the sole power to determine what labor was worth?

Of course not.

Nevertheless, I am a realist, not an idealist.


The fact is that huge swaths of people exist who are willing (and happy) to perform the exact same tasks as the US union worker, for a fraction of the wage.

I don't like it, but it's reality. The capitalist model breeds competition. Instead of bemoaning this change, we need to recognize it for what it is; identify new emerging fields of growth, and seize upon them.

Clinging to a losing economic model is akin to resisting the plow because it reduced the value of human labor.


Gotta run.

"Clinging to a losing economic model is akin to resisting the plow because it reduced the value of human labor."

Well said, and clinging to "free trade" now after we have begun to see the effects to our economy would be suicidal. It is completely dishonest for the "free traders" to even argue that having products manufactured in China for shipment to the US even is "free trade" because it is a well known fact that 1. China is not a free country 2. China subsidizes manufacturing 3. The lack of environmental protections, labor protections, wage laws, etc. create a business environment that isn't fair to us and costs us jobs.

"That was solid, Danni."

Tom Hartman for president!!!
I just reppeated what he said on his show today.

Interesting that San Jose, San Francisco, and Sacramento are in the top 10 and Los Angeles is in the bottom 10. Guess it's not a "state" but rather a "local" issue. Hmmmmm......

And lets not forget allowing Neil Bush to profit off of it as well Verm!

Posted by 726


726, do you honestly beleive that republicans hold a monopoly on helping their friends and family benefit financially? I mean, do you really think that democrats don't do the exact same crap? Do you think that only republicans own corporations?

Find something relevant to bash Bush over. I don't mind Bush being criticized, in fact he deserves it often, but it gets so tiresome hearing you libs blame every single bad thing in the world on the guy, or any corruption, or even anything LEGAL and by the books. It just gets so old.

I honestly do hope that Obama wins the election and the dems have the majority in both houses, because you guys are going to have A WHOLE LOT to answer to if that happens. I really hope it happens.

i do believe you will get your wish

To everyone without a clue: business is in business to make a profit. In that sense, the bottom line means everything. No profit means loss of investment. Next step is to go out of business. Since when did profit become a dirty word for liberals? Evidently, liberals believe that corporations exist simply to provide employment. How naive. Then again, naivety is a trait exhibited by many of the DR lefties on a daily basis.

Posted by danni at 2008-04-02 03:51 PM

This is not simply a "black" issue as some posts here seem to indicate. There are plenty of white kids not finishing HS too. Poverty is probably one of the causes ...

we could go back earlier and make just as good of a case that had the former slaves been given "40 acres and a mule" they would have become land owning farmers and their descendants would still own that land and be successful. I think that blaming welfare is a convenient scape goat ...

Johnson, in a nutshell - poverty is a factor because public schools are financed by property taxes. Poor areas, lower home values, lower property tax revenue - follow me? Additionally, rich areas have rich parents that can afford to pay for - band uniforms and instruments, computers, etc. Also, if the parents don't need to work 2 jobs to make ends meet, perhaps they will have time to volunteer at the schools, work with their children at home doing homework - hell, be able to afford to have a computer at home with high-speed internet access. Parents that have gone to college are better able to prepare their children to apply to schools and provide the background necessary to get into college. The children of the poor are not necessarily "stupid" as you so comapassionately term it. They lack the facilities at their schools, and the support at home. For too many, opportunity to succeed just does not exist. It's a difficult, multi-layered issue. The question to YOU is - do you have any solutions?

Nevertheless, I am a realist, not an idealist.

The fact is that huge swaths of people exist who are willing (and happy) to perform the exact same tasks as the US union worker, for a fraction of the wage.

I don't like it, but it's reality. The capitalist model breeds competition. Instead of bemoaning this change, we need to recognize it for what it is; identify new emerging fields of growth, and seize upon them.

Clinging to a losing economic model is akin to resisting the plow because it reduced the value of human labor.

But I see you're too busy generalizing about "blacks" - so why do I fucking bother?

"Evidently, liberals believe that corporations exist simply to provide employment."

MOre millionaires were created during the Clinton years than during any previous administration. You righties have deregulated anything and everything you could during the past 7 years and during the REagan and Bush 1 administration. The results of that deregulation is the economic crises we now face. Pretending that "libruls" don't understand business is ridiculous, lots of libruls own and operate businesses. Funny thing, I bet Bear Stearns is owned by conservative investors primarily but it will take a "liberal" bail out to keep it solvent.

"What do you think the correlation is danni, and the cause and effect?"

Obviously, there is some truth to the idea that some of the poor are developementally disabled but really I have known a few "retarded" individuals who managed to work and have fairly decent lives.
I really think it is more of a deep psychological (I hate that word) problem partially caused by the effects of poverty on young people's expectations and dreams of accomplishments. It is funny that the inner city can produce the best athletes, great musicians, entertainers, entrepreneurs of the illegal kind, etc. but not too many lawyers, doctors, etc. I think that is true because in the inner city athletics, music, entertainment are viewed as doable where as shool and professional achievement isn't.

To everyone without a clue: business is in business to make a profit.

Exactly the reason why this country is in such a mess.

Since when did profit become a dirty word for liberals?

Posted by Republican4ever

Never. What is bad are excessive profits at the expense of any social contract that companies have to the society and the people that they make those profits from.
That's the great thing about our system, you can become rich without being a greedy asshole. Too bad too many people can't see that.

"They were given 40 acres and a mule."

No they didn't ever recieve it and though it sounds trite today, in 1865 a forty acre farm with a mule to plow with was a viable farm. Share cropping is what most black and white poor people did in the south for decades after the Civil WAr extending right into the sixties. When you never own the land it takes the profit out of farming.

The fact is that huge swaths of people exist who are willing (and happy) to perform the exact same tasks as the US union worker, for a fraction of the wage.

This has nothing to do with union but glad to see you ignorant enough to point at the organization as the problem.

Tell us this smart guy, are you saying those jobs would be lost if they were not union? are you saying these companys would not be offshoring the jobs to .75/hr and instead stay because they were not union jobs? Are you saying that?

The economic degree your education seemed to provided failed to show you how to actually apply it to real world and recognize failings. Glad to see you can keep that cheap consumer price and corporate profit is prime idea going.

Thank you public schools for training a new generation of people who will work at Taco Bell, Wal-Mart, and load cargo trucks!

Posted by vernon

As usual, righties come out to piss on the working folks. I suppose those you berate should be collecting welfare, would that make you happier?

And if anyone here denies that the free market and marketing is not to blame for the attitude of our young towards education, you are lying to yourself.
Look at any movie, TV show or commercial about high school or college and tell me how much time is spent talking about education. Kids today see college as a place you go to drink and get laid.

Well it's clear that when the parents and the kids don't care about an education, it can't be forced on them. Many inner city teachers actually tell the kids "OK if you don't want to participate, please sit in the back and don't disrupt the class, and we won't bother you". Throwing money at the schools will not change their attitudes.

It's a very sad state of affairs........

in a nutshell - poverty is a factor because public schools are financed by property taxes. Poor areas, lower home values, lower property tax revenue - follow me?

Not true in the case of the Los Angeles Unified School District. The LAUSD has billions of dollars pumped into it, even with the Proposition 13 limitation on the amount of property taxes accessed because billions of dollars come from bonds and other sources of revenues and are given to the LAUSD. Yet the LAUSD is still 9th from the bottom of worst number of large city high school graduates even with all the money given to the District.

Actually the LAUSD is probably ranks even lower on the list but the list of 50 didn't also take into account the HUGE number of LAUSD students who not only didn't graduate high school but who dropped out of school entirely.

"If you don't blame "welfare," then I suppose that you must blame the recipients, who either will not or cannot acquire marketable skills to the same degree as other groups do?"

An awful lot of black people have acquired skills and are quite successful, more on the way. We kept an entire race subservient for centuries and then act impatient when they don't rise up to our levels of education and business acument in one or two generations. I remember in the sixties when we first began Civil Rights legislation under Kennedy and many people noted that it would take many decades to assimilate millions of underpriveleged black people into the middle class of America. We do need to motivate millions of poor people in this country but it is not limited to the black population. Importing 20 million illegal workers to undercut low wage workers is certainly not helping the situation. OUtsourcing millions of manufacturing jobs is not helping the situation.
Our fathers and our grandfathers could depend on the American economy to provide opportunity, now in the 21st century the opportunity is beginning to disappear for those trying to get a leg up on the bottom rung of the success ladder.

accessed = assessed

Why danni, do you think that blacks reject "acting white" and qualifying themselves for more remunerative employment?

Posted by Johnson

Sure, why should they feel any ill will towards the people that enslaved them for 400 years and then supported another 100 of state sponsored oppression.
After all, they were allowed to fight and get hosed and lynched and killed enough until slavery and desegregation ended, why are they still pissed after a measly 60 years?

"The fact is that huge swaths of people exist who are willing (and happy) to perform the exact same tasks as the US union worker, for a fraction of the wage."

Given that only about 12 percent of American workers are union members, that hardly explains the onslaught of outsourcing.

After all, they were allowed to fight and get hosed and lynched and killed enough until slavery and desegregation ended, why are they still pissed after a measly 60 years?

Posted by TFDNihilist

Well there you have it. Complex problem, simple explanation.

Well it's clear that when the parents and the kids don't care about an education, it can't be forced on them. Many inner city teachers actually tell the kids "OK if you don't want to participate, please sit in the back and don't disrupt the class, and we won't bother you". Throwing money at the schools will not change their attitudes.

Posted by DavetheWave

It would if the school then had the money to assign a private tutor to that kid to work 1 on 1 with them and figure out a way to reach them. Instead of letting them waste away in the back of the room.

Any money we spend on public schools should be seen as an investment. Any way you can turn a future criminal into a future doctor sounds like a good investment for society as a whole, no matter how much it costs.

Of course, that's the key phrase "society as a whole", most people in this country don't give a damn about their neighborhood, city or America. their too busy looking out for #1.

"Why are they still pissed after a measly 60 years?"

Then there are Sunni and Shia.

Muhammad died June 8, 632; 1375+ years.

Now THAT's a family feud.

It is funny reading these right republican posters, they make all kinds of out right party and lazy statements of the drop outs but NOT ONE actually has any thought of the actual problem.

The problem with the repubright is they throw all kinds of shit at what they perceive at the surface and refuse to actually get to the real underlying problem, that requires too much thought and brain power for them.

That's fucking rich, Moneywar. Your solution is throw more money at it, as long as you aren't expected to pull out your wallet.

Wisgod,

Where have I stated anywhere to throw more money at it? Money is only a small problem in this aspect of our education for K-12.

Corporations bitch about the education but what are they doing to help it????? Off shoring the jobs to a more uneducated country.

Yep, that off shoring ought to keep the education up.

Guess what?

"No Child Left Behind" is an utterly insane and miserably stupid idea; At the same time.
Sound familiar?

Lose the losers early, teach the ones who want to learn. Public education, at least in Austin, which is relatively good according to that list I read earlier, was utterly unacceptable in the 1986-1990 time frame.

Kirby Hall
St Andrew's
St Stephen's

Now those are schools.

Son, Sewanee (I was on the parent's council), ACC, BS Magna cum Laude from Texas State, in grad school at U Denver.

Daughter, BA, Rhodes, has her own studio.

Both debt-free.

I win.

Zat,

And what have you done to hope those losers find hope?

"Why are they still pissed after a measly 60 years?"

Then there are Sunni and Shia.

Muhammad died June 8, 632; 1375+ years.

Now THAT's a family feud.

Posted by Zatoichi

Exactly.

An economic policy that encourages rising prices and reducing wages is a failing economy by any measure, yet we have repubrighties in sublime spouting this is the needed direction.

How idiotic is that!

The long term effects of a failing economy expand well in to the core of society and that's the problem with the repubrighties, they can't think so expansive.

"Kirby Hall
St Andrew's
St Stephen's"

yes they are and they all have entrance exams, cost lots of money and really enrollment is limited to just a select few.
I doubt that too many of the kids in inner city ghettos would qualify. But then, not too many of those kids who did qualify would be able to survive in the inner city ghetto.

Different skill set required.

How many rich parents kids don't graduate??

How many poverty parents kids don't graduate??

Those who have been afforded the luxery of making it big don't want to share the wealth, it is designed so, just look at where they push their investments. Not in America.

We've always had poor, rich, middle class but never these kind of terribly low numbers when it come to students not graduating high school. You never heard of such abysmal rates even back in the 1970's and 1980's so why now? What's changed?

the way I see it, the Catholic Church is missing a huge opportunity. Their number are shrinking, while they're closing schools in the inner city left and right. The smart thing to do would be to have quality schools in the city, where they already own them, but make them free or low cost. Parents would be lined up in droves to enroll their kids, and the church would have thousands of impressionable minds to indoctrinate.

Another thing -- and I don't know whether it plays a big part in the low number of non-high school graduates or not -- but schools no longer seem to put an emphasis on vocational training, only on test scores results for college entrance preparation. When I was in high school you were either in "college prep" courses or in "vocational education" courses.

Seems to me that if every kid is only shoved into courses where they are expected to go to college -- and not every kid is cut out for college -- maybe that's why they lose interest.

It's been a long time for me since high school so can anyone on here bring me up to date on my question -- do today's high schools still offer courses and promote skiils in vocational education?

skiils = skills

"Four-Fifths of U.S. High School Graduates Not Ready for College" to quote Dick Cheney - So? I have news for you, if every child that graduates high school in the US goes to college and gets a degree and becomes a "professional" we are all going to be in a bunch of shit. To put it on the most basic level, what are we so-called lofty superior college educated types going to eat? Everyone has a degree and becomes a professional who is going to grow, tend and pick the food? Who is going to package it? Who is going to stock the shelves at the grocery store, who is going to man the checkout? Who is going to cook it in restaurants? Who is going to take our order and bring it to our tables? What are we going to wear? Who is going to make, ship and sell the clothes? Where are we going to live? Who is going to build our houses? Who is going to supply us with water and electricity? What are we going to drive? Who is going to build the cars? What will we drive on? Who is going to build the roads? Who is going to drive the buses, the trains and the taxis? Why not get the emphasis off forcing everyone into college and start vocational training? What the ever loving f**k is wrong with training someone to be a plumber, an electrician, a cook, a waitress, a car mechanic? There will always be people who are NEVER destined for college, never so long as their rear ends point downwards will they be destined for college. So how about training them for a job that they can actually do and that they will no doubt end up doing when they leave school anyway? This entire obsession with every single child getting a college education is simply absurd and is why this country is scoring dead last in worldwide standards.

Chris - you are I were posting the same thoughts at the same time, mine took longer to type cause I am so verbose!

LiLBrit

Apparently we were both on the same wave length!

How funny!

We both just did it again!


Chris - you are I were posting the same thoughts at the same time, mine took longer to type cause I am so verbose!

Posted by Litlebritdifrnt at 2008-04-02 08:24 PM

LiLBrit

Apparently we were both on the same wave length!

Posted by CalifChris at 2008-04-02 08:25 PM

Proof that great minds think alike! hahaha

And just the other day there was a thread on here about how companies were having trouble finding qualified employees. Hence, our education system is broken. And the thanks goes to the liberals who control the inner-city educational establishments. Throwing more money into public education is not the answer. Educational vouchers that will allow these city folks to attend better schools is the answer. I believe the competition to attract students will force the inner-city schools to shape up. As it is now, the inner-city schools have no motivation whatsoever to properly educate our kids. It is a very sad situation indeed.

The smart thing to do would be to have quality schools in the city, where they already own them, but make them free or low cost. Parents would be lined up in droves to enroll their kids, and the church would have thousands of impressionable minds to indoctrinate.

Posted by TFDNihilist

And who's going to teach when the public school teachers, as part of a union, have the best benefits? Parents would pay a premium, but until the City/State helps the private schools, you're going to have a hard time finding teachers. I think you're on the right track. Share the tax collections with them. What do we have to lose?

"yes they are and they all have entrance exams, cost lots of money and really enrollment is limited to just a select few."

Bingo!

It's called reality.

Voting for bread and circuses won't change a thing.

I'll tell you what Boyd, I'd forgo my concerns about religion if it meant my inner city kid(s) where given a chance to succeed in life that they weren't getting now.

Chris - its really simple, common sense always finds good company.

Hans, do us a favor, and try to stay on topic.

Different skill set required.

Agreed.

Same planet/ Different worlds.

Be Well.

the Drudge's resident bigot

It's like Archie Bunker swallowed a thesaurus or sommat.

Be Well.

Do everyone here a favor, wisgod, and fuck off.

Hans

Posted by Hans

Fuck you embarrasing POS. Much like your life, you have nothing of substance to offer on any thread. And your obsession with Vern makes you look like a fool.

Do everyone here a favor, wisgod, and fuck off.

Hans

Posted by Hans at 2008-04-02 09:02 PM

Even though he rarely makes any original arguments, Hans is well known on the DR. His ability to capture and illuminate misspellings is legendary. How culd we ever servive withought him?

Republican4ever. I think there are many, on both sides of the aisle that would certainly like to try.

Shitcan the department of education. That would be a good start..

Even though he rarely makes any original arguments

R-tard4ever sed this?

About Hans?

** long low whistle **

Wow, that's a case of the grass calling the sky green, right there.

Spud to R-Tard:

Nice troll on the deliberate misspellings you unoriginal fuck.

That's some fine trolling Lou, mighty fine.

Be Well.

We are witnessing the effects of a socialized school system. It would be a whole lot different if schools had to compete for business.

Ray, I agree. But first you would have to break the teachers union. And where I live, they are rated in the top 3 State lobbyists.

Wisgod

There are a lot of things that would have to change, but none of them will. The State will not give up its monopoly on education and the masses are too passive. My recommendation to any aware parent of school age children is to teach as if home was a second school.

And who's going to teach when the public school teachers, as part of a union, have the best benefits? Parents would pay a premium, but until the City/State helps the private schools, you're going to have a hard time finding teachers. I think you're on the right track. Share the tax collections with them. What do we have to lose?

Posted by wisgod

How does this have anything to do with what I said? I dare you, without looking back, to tell me what my post was about.

Share the tax collections with them. What do we have to lose?

Posted by wisgod

So you get pissed when the government gives our money out in food stamps or welfare, but you're OK with the idea of giving it to the Catholic Church?

Ted:
I think you brought up Catholic schools.

We are witnessing the effects of a socialized school system. It would be a whole lot different if schools had to compete for business.

Posted by Ray

So why are the best education systems in Socialist countries?

The problem is that our schools aren't socialist enough, there's too much emphasis on the top and not enough attention paid at the bottom. Personally, I think the schools should be funded to the point of 2 or 3 students per teacher.

Ted, any private school.

Is anybody really surprised that negroes destory school districts and then have trouble graduating from those schools. I would advise every responsible parent to get your child into an All White School district and as far away from the negro menace as possible.

I'm afraid that we as a nation are coming to the inevitable conclusion that the negro race is simply unsavable. I believe the last resort as a nation is to just concede Mississippi to the blacks and give them their own state.

Is anybody really surprised that negroes destory school districts and then have trouble graduating from those schools. I would advise every responsible parent to get your child into an All White School district and as far away from the negro menace as possible.

I'm afraid that we as a nation are coming to the inevitable conclusion that the negro race is simply unsavable. I believe the last resort as a nation is to just concede Mississippi to the blacks and give them their own state.

I think you brought up Catholic schools.

Posted by wisgod

Well, that's close. but since you even got my name wrong, I'm not putting a lot of faith in your reading comprehension skills.

You're like the guy in conversation who is not listening to the other person talk, you're just waiting for them to stop talking so you can say what you have to.

I'm afraid that we as a nation are coming to the inevitable conclusion that the negro race is simply unsavable.
Posted by NonPCPerson

And what do they have to be saved from? Why if they hadn't been held in bondage for 500 years and then the subjects of state sponsored oppression for another 100, they wouldn't have to be saved from anything.

You're like the guy in conversation who is not listening to the other person talk, you're just waiting for them to stop talking so you can say what you have to.

Posted by TFDNihilist

Not true, and I saw that right before I hit the publish button. Trust me, I'd like to be part of the solution; politics aside.

So why are the best education systems in Socialist countries?

Culture plays a part, but you are still comparing one socialist system against others.

The problem is that our schools aren't socialist enough, there's too much emphasis on the top and not enough attention paid at the bottom.

But that's the nature of socialist systems. They have no competition. I hate to imagine how much worse it would get by socializing more.

Personally, I think the schools should be funded to the point of 2 or 3 students per teacher.

Posted by TFDNihilist at 2008-04-02 09:47

If memory serves, it costs taxpayers about $15,000 per student with large classes.

TFDNihilist is a fine example of the shoddy thinkers schools are putting out these days.

I'd like to be part of the solution; politics aside.

Posted by wisgod

To me, the solution boils down to one concept, that any investment in the education, health and welfare of the underclasses is an a good investment for all of us.
Anything that can turn my future mugger into my future doctor is a good idea.

I hate to imagine how much worse it would get by socializing more.

Posted by Ray

Why imagine, just look at the stats of socialist countries and see what would happen.

If memory serves, it costs taxpayers about $15,000 per student with large classes.

Posted by Ray

I guess it's not enough then.

I guess it's not enough then.

Posted by TFDNihilist

So your bottom line is thow more money at the problem?

TFD

I said culture is an important factor. And I said you are comparing socialist systems with other socialist systems. I don't think there is any viable private competitive market system to compare against socialist schools.

$15,000 per student not enough? Screw the taxpayers. You must work in the system.

To me, the solution boils down to one concept, that any investment in the education, health and welfare of the underclasses is an a good investment for all of us.

To me, the solution to which you are referring to was suggested when we were spending way way way way way way way way less than we are today. Like 1/5th as much and yet we threw 5 times as much at education and here you are asking for more money like it will work.

that is similar to suggesting that we stay in Iraq for another 15 years believing that a different result will occur.

Why not, if we just "invest" more in it then it will surely work won't it?

:-(

Shit homey, I don't need no schoolin. I gots to get my bitches on the corner pronto, yo. I needs some new carpo for me crib.

Can't be readin no hard covers knowin Snoop may gets the drop on me and score that crack ho, yo!

Gotsta mambo on the jambo wit da hambo!

I don't think there is any viable private competitive market system to compare against socialist schools.
Posted by Ray

This sounds like an endorsement of Socialism. You are admitting that a socialist system educates people better.

So your bottom line is thow more money at the problem?

Posted by wisgod

No, my solution is to spend more to get more.
Why do righties always equate spending money with "throwing" money at something? When you want to improve your house, do you "throw" money at it? When you want your kids to get a better education, do you "throw" money at them?

@Vernon

The high school graduation rate is much, much higher when you factor in students at private schools and home school.
--------------------
The article is about public school systems.

I went to such a city public school in Baltimore. Out of 200+ freshmen, 50 graduated. 3 of us went to college.

You know why public schools are failing in cities? Because people have better shit to do than show up at school, like getting high, selling drugs (or running them), hanging out at the mall all day etc.

You can't make someone do what they don't want to. Most poor kids see school as a chore, not a way to get an education. They know they'll be standing out on the corner, and it doesn't take an education to do it.

It's not a white problem, or black one. It's a problem of apathy, hopelessness and lack of concern for the future. They feel they don't have a future, so why bother? No one tells them about pell grants, the GI Bill, or student loans.

It doesn't take a HSD to gang bang and sell crack. You don't need college to get high and play xbox all day.

I felt this way, but luckily, I had a great teacher that bothered to tell me what education is about and parents that cared. They snapped me out of it and helped me understand why all of my friends were losers, and why I owe it to myself to take advantage of the opportunity and fortune they don't have. That opportunity and fortune was parents willing to support me, and a strong family.

I'm one of the three people that went to college. For school to work, you need a family. Most city kids don't get a family. Most failed the dice roll.

I was in one of the three families in my neighborhood that didn't have a drunk in it, or a parent MIA for whatever reason. I was also in one of three families in the hood with kids that went on to college.

-Viz

gentlemen and ladies,
trust me on this one.

this is an alarming stat....at first glance....but one thing on this issue THAT YOU MUST DO and thats to look at the way they gathered these stats. I know for a fact that many if not most of the time, these groups like the promise alliance dont get or give the entire picture.
I have had more than a couple of these reports on my desk when I was a working stiff and they had one thing in common.
they would take the number of 9th graders enrolled and then take the number of 12th graders enrolled 4 years later and more often than not.....they would just subtract the numbers with little IF ANY regard for students moving, moved to alternative class, kept back, or graduating early even in one report.
and that kind of stat taking does not give you an accurate look at dropouts.....
oh yeah....HOME SCHOOLING has NEVER been counted in these reports....or rather the ones that I was given to look at while on more than one committee to help stem the rate.
so while it HAS to be a problem for all of us when a student drops out because so many times they are running the streets, but these numbers are easy to fix ONE WAY OR ANOTHER........

Hans is well known on the DR. His ability to capture and illuminate misspellings is legendary. How culd we ever servive withought him?

Posted by Republican4ever at 2008-04-0


ah I would like to try it and see. I think all of us would survive without hans.....

its lisa I want back..... come on baby, I know you are reading this. you know you want some of this......

lisa?????

lisa??????

The bureacrats in gov't are in bed with the NEA and school district unions that can't get rid of shitty teachers, and don't want to lose their power.

Public schools suck--if they gave the parents of kids in failing schools school vouchers to go the nearest Charter School of Private School--fewer kids would be dropping out. But the schools complain about teaching to the test--BS. They aren't teaching kids anything except how to have sex and go have an abortion.

And on the side they molest the kids more than the priest scandal ever reached in numbers.

And then we have schools insisting on teaching Spanish kids Spanish up to 4th grade before they start to teach them English--real good teaching skills and policies there.

Fights in school everyday--they have 50 adults supervising 2200 kids. We pulled my daughter out of the HS here (she asked us to get her out) and she is finally back on track.

I would go to the HS school to deliver something to the office in the morning and there were 200 kids walking around with no class! And classes are going on!

When I went to school--we had hall passes--you had to be in a classroom or you were in the office. So 200 kids milling around--mostly ditching--right under the noses of the 50 adults and security guard.

And here in CA they are trying to close down homeschooling--again they must keep their power and homeschooling is a threat--same with Charter schools.

Murphy

I love it. that's always the righties' way.

Public schools suck--if they gave the parents of kids in failing schools school vouchers to go the nearest Charter School of Private School-

Schools not working...fuck 'em, close them down
Old ladies didn't save for retirement, fuck 'em, shut down Social Security.
Babies hungry 'cause momma's a crackhead, fuck 'em, help decrease the surplus population.

I love it. that's always the righties' way.

Would you call buffalo bob a righty, TFDN? This is essentially his attitude towards the whole country: "America's not working. Make two countries. Give half to the right and half to the left".

I love it. that's always the righties' way.

Public schools suck--if they gave the parents of kids in failing schools school vouchers to go the nearest Charter School of Private School-

Schools not working...fuck 'em, close them down
Old ladies didn't save for retirement, fuck 'em, shut down Social Security.
Babies hungry 'cause momma's a crackhead, fuck 'em, help decrease the surplus population.



Wow, is that how vouchers work? B/c a kid's parents' actually care enough for their child and want to send them to a better school via a voucher, the school that the child leaves must shut down?

public schools will not shut down b/c they are 1)protected by one of the most powerful unions in the USA 2) they provide daycare for millions of parents

no goat.....you can do that to the others

republic of texas.....has a nice ring to it.

murph....I certainly dont doubt what you say but it also sounds like you may just not know all of the details of the students being out.
of course if its a common occurance, then the person in charge needs to go.
there is no excuse for any school to not have a disciplined environment where learning is the most important thing, BUT NOT THE ONLY THING.
all it takes is a little planning and a principal with balls.
and I dont mean that it has to be a man by that remark. my last principal was a woman but she ran the place and there was no doubt about it.

No, my solution is to spend more to get more.
Why do righties always equate spending money with "throwing" money at something? When you want to improve your house, do you "throw" money at it? When you want your kids to get a better education, do you "throw" money at them?

Posted by TFDNihilist at 2008-04-02 11:40

It's failed so miserably in the past, yet this teacher cum laude still thinks money equates to quality. I think this man wants a raise for producing bad results. Would anybody buy a new car on those grounds?

I used to live in Cleveland before busing and my wife and I and our three children moved out just ib time. Anyone with any brains moved out at the same time. Cleveland is wall to wall dummies now. The reason that their schools are bad is that their students are dumb and the parents are just as dumb. Dumbness, low I.Q. is permanent and that is why the problem is hopeless.

The problem is not the dropouts, but the poor educatgions of the ones who DO graduate.

"The problem is not the dropouts, but the poor educatgions of the ones who DO graduate."

And lack of spell-checking, apparently.

Ebonics.

Outsource education. The government is paying public schools and the results are shoddy.

So, outsource. Give the parents the choice of a private school that has a better track record than the public school and let the money for that kid go to the private school.

Screw the arguments of church and state. Not all private schools are religious.

The parents want their kids educated, its for the benefit of the kids and this country (General Welfare) and if public schools that suck suddenly have decreased enrollment and close -tough.

If private schools can produce a difference in these kids, then it wasn't just the kids and parents. It was the school. If no school can teach these kids, then there is a problem beyond the schools.

The government has to ignore ACLU and just give it a shot. When a kid learns in private school after having gone through the failing public school system, then the benefits outway the church/state issue. General Welfare of the US is just as important to consider.

It is the teachers unions that are killing the educational sysem.

I hope everyone can clearly see how the media tries to hide the racial issue by changing the identifiers into "suburban" and "urban". All of us with half a brain understand this is "White" and "Black".

A couple very interesting points need to be made regarding this topic. One of the most important things is that it's obviously that due to forced integration of the races by the government the Whites are fleeing in record numbers to the suburbs in an attempt to create a safe All White environment for their children to learn.

The other thing that is important to understand is that there really is nothing wrong with our educational system or our teachers. The problem with the American school system is the demographics of the classroom. All White Schools with all White students are achieveing at the same historic high levels. Blacks are the other hand are just incapable of achieveing this level of educational success.

It's time for the White masses to realize this simple reality that blacks are destorying our educational systems. As a race in general, the risk and reward of trying to educate them just isn't worth it.

Graduated in 80 and it was occurring 27 years ago nonpc.

Rather, that should be that the dropout rate is not climbing.

It's been a long time for me since high school so can anyone on here bring me up to date on my question -- do today's high schools still offer courses and promote skiils in vocational education?

Chris, vocational education programs at the high school level must now show that they fulfill college-prep science/math courses or they do not receive funding. Perkins grants were used in the past to fund vocational education programs at the district level. The government will now withhold Perkins grants if a course offered at the vo-ed school does NOT meet college prep requirements for science or math. Vocational schools all over the country are now at risk of closing their doors. As every reasonable person should know, not all children are going to go to college. Some for financial reasons, some simply because they are not college material. Vocational schools have traditionally prepared millions of young people for GOOD PAYING jobs in their communities. The school my husband teaches at offers courses in culinary arts, beauty school, daycare training, auto mechanics, airplane mechanics, printing, nursing, secretarial and computer. Those are just the ones I can think of off the bat. I know there are more courses and certificates offered. And all of those are threatened now. What will these kids do? Go on the public dole, that's what. And THAT is a tragedy. I don't give a rip WHO came up with this "Every Child Left In The Dirt" plan - it stinks. And it is NOT WORKING.

Back when our schools worked better, we allowed people to drop out if they wanted and concentrated on the ones who wanted to stay and learned. This made for higher dropout rates, but a high school diploma was educationally meaningful.

Now, we force people to go to school, thereby turning it into prison, and we correspondingly water down the educational content in order to get the graduation rates high, thereby ensuring that nobody learns anything much, whether or not they drop out.

That's the true problem. The trick is to restore voluntary education and help the kids who want to learn. Send the others through GED programs.

NonPCPerson, okay, I'll bite.

How do you identify who is white and who is black?

The vast majority of blacks in the US have "white" blood flowing in their veins to one percentage of another.

Do you go strictly by looks? "Well, he looks black, so he must be segregated."

How many people in America look white, but do have "black" blood flowing in their veins?

Would you perform a genetic test on all suspects and establish a threshold as to "blackness" versus "whiteness"?

Would you segregate Barrack Obama. He kinda looks black, even though he is verifiably half white (with a sprinkle of Amerind)?

How about Mariah Carey? She doesn't look entirely black, but she is really hawt.

How about those who kinda sorta look like mixed racers simply be segregated off. That would make it easy, y'a think?

Are sure secure in your own genetic heritage? Mebbe you be "tainted" to, eh whitebread?

has any of you noticed black kids do better in school in cities with white mayors -do any of you know why
jasman

NonPCPerson, okay, I'll bite.

ZOT...you shouldn't have. When someone makes stupid sweeping statements like NONPERSON ...no one should bother.

"has any of you noticed black kids do better in school in cities with white mayors"

Not true for my city, which is in the top 5 of the above list.

"...you shouldn't have. When someone makes stupid sweeping statements like NONPERSON ...no one should bother."

Posted by kerrin57

Yeah, perhaps I shouldn't. Still, I am fascinated by this type of thinking.

I remember once dorking about on the net, looking up my last name, seeing what sort of family tree type history is out there. I came across one link, "Smith" Family Reunion Photo. Click... Surprise! My family hails from northern England on my Pa's side and northern Europe on my Ma's side. This family in the photo, a couple of dozen people at least, all wearing red identical shirts with the "Smith Family Reunion" printed across them, well, they were all black. I remember thinking a couple of things: 1) that my pa's side of the family when they came to Virginia became part of the problem we are having today; and 2) I ain't paying nobody no how no money for no slave reparations!

So how much of their blood is "white," if any? How of much of my blood just might be "black"?

"The trick is to restore voluntary education and help the kids who want to learn. Send the others through GED programs."

Agree this should be the general intention. However, I think things should be done to encourage the "voluntary" part, make kids want to learn. The elephant in the shop, however, remains. What do we do with all those who don't get a good education? "Fuck em" is just going to "fuck" everyone sooner or later.

FYI,

A fact in life is that people can not be shielded from the consequences of stupidity forever.

The key is, don't ruin everyone else's education while you're ringing your hands over the people that, for whatever reason, are not educatable in the standard environment.

Many kids who drop out of high school would finish a GED program if it was presented as a choice they make. They would also learn more while doing it because, unlike grades, which are routinely cooked, passing the GED can not be faked. In the mean time, they would not waste teacher's, fellow students', and administrators time dealing with their own little issue. Personal responsibility and freedom of choice: that is the recipe.

"Personal responsibility and freedom of choice: that is the recipe."

Ideally, yes. In reality, that's just another way of saying "fuck em".

"A fact in life is that people can not be shielded from the consequences of stupidity forever."

Agree, they can't. But the reality is that the country has them, so the country has to deal with them. Again, "sink or swim" won't solve anything.

Bottom line is, we live in a country with all kinds of people. We must constantly have programs or ideas which will deal with as many people as possible. Think of it like the employment/unemployment rate. There will always be people who are unemployed or unemployable. But we must have an economy where most of the people can survive and thrive. If the unemployment rate is 40%, whether it's because there aren't jobs or because people can do or don't want to do the jobs, we have a 40% unemployment rate. And huge problems. Talking about personal responsibility et al solves zilch.

Would anybody buy a new car on those grounds?

Posted by Ra

Yes, we all know that the quality of the car has nothing to do with the amount of money you spend.

Bottom line is, we live in a country with all kinds of people.

Posted by fyi

Now FYI, stop trying to make sense. Everyone must fit into the Euro/Puritan ethic of work, work, work, money, money, money. There is clearly no other purpose in life than to make money and buy crap, so give up your Pinko Socialist ideas that society should try to fit the people in it. It's the other way around. The purpose of government and society is to force people by threat of violence to be just like everyone else.

This is not simply a "black" issue as some posts here seem to indicate. There are plenty of white kids not finishing HS too. Poverty is probably one of the causes but obviously, ....


Posted by danni at 2008-04-02 03:51 PM | Reply


Danni, please turn off the horseshit for a few minutes. You are so close that it is agonizing.

Most Urban school districts are 'black' because the non-black parents in those districts have opted for private school or home school. They remain there because they respect the value of raising children in a highly textured environment.

So you have Liberal Utopia: taxpayers coughing up money for local government school, and then paying for local private school.

Therefore, the government school has TWICE the money, and still they are failures.

loose=lose

I taught school for several years. I taught in both public and private schools. People ask me why I quit, I tell them because of the parents. In the private school where the parents were paying tuition (and cared enough about their children's education to spend the money above the taxes they pay) I had no problem with the kids and was able to see 100% of the kids graduate 90+% of the kids go to college. In the public school, I had very little support from the parents and the numbers were exactly what is outlined in this report.

In my mind the answer is to find a way to allow the parents who care to send their children to a school were there are children from like minded families.

I am not sure what you do with the children who's parents do not care. Without them it is rare to find someone who will want to learn.

FYI,

You can't force people to learn. They must decide to do so. It is a personal and deeply human decision. Each individual makes the choice. Government programs do not make choices...people do. The choice to be educated, unlike employment (which relies on a willing employer), is a purely personal one. This is the essence of education. Programs do not impact this, as 100 years of programs amply demonstrates.

The problem now is that the people who do want to learn can not, as they're forced to sit in classrooms with people who don't. This is a fundamental error which no government program can overcome, except to stop creating this classroom situation.

Yes, you can monkey with grades and graduation requirements to make it LOOK like people are learning, but the fact is, they end up ignorant, and you can not fool the Market. These kids leave school with no knowledge and no skills, whether or not they graduate. The Market does not find room for these people. It never has, except to employ them as pack mules. Of course, you can always give them government jobs and overpay them and ensure they have no competition and a seniority promotion system, but then we all know how well that works....

......whats the big surprise ???........

......America is dumb and getting dumber by design........

......just as Islam keeps the ME countries in the middle ages.......the Dumbing Down of America will keep us as a perpetual money conduit, where our wages are turned into cheap plastic shit, shipped to China, and turned back into dollars, ......

.......for the benefit of Chinese global dominance, please keep up the rhetoric about starving the public education of money /and/ even of closing it down.......

.........keep it up you fucking sheep...........

Skizziks,

If this is obvious, and you offer no solution, what is the point of belaboring the obvious and offering no solution to the obvious problem?

It does NOT make you look intelligent.

So why are the best education systems in Socialist countries?

The problem is that our schools aren't socialist enough, there's too much emphasis on the top and not enough attention paid at the bottom. Personally, I think the schools should be funded to the point of 2 or 3 students per teacher.

WRONG WRONG WRONG ...

While I agree that the best education systems are in the socialist countries (I guess we are talking about Europe and Japan) The reason is not because they are more socialist, its because A) they demand excellence, and B) after elementary education they continuously eliminate the dead weight. So they are only focusing on the best. By the time they provide excellent free highschool education (which is would compare to an entire curriculum of honors and AP classes in this country) They are not socialist at all w.r.t. education. They are cold hard capitalists looking for return on investment.

Oh, I forgot to add that this won't work here, because our elementry education teachers are ... not the sharpest tools in the shed when it comes to math and science. Once the damage is done from 1st-5th grade it's had to undo.

ChlorineHair5,

You are dead right.

Yeah, I know.

I'm engineer so I get a little worried about the state of our math and science education in this country.

Yeah, I know.

I'm engineer, so I get a little worried about the state of our math and science education in this country.

**** our elementry education teachers are ... not the sharpest tools in the shed when it comes to math and science Posted by chlorinehair5 ****

........pay public school teachers well enough so that the profession becomes sought after.........

Chlorinehair5,

I'm a public school science teacher, and, unlike a lot of these dumbasses, I actually deal with the kids.

The situation can be made a lot better by giving kids the choice and making them see the need to be better educated. It is not even close to hopeless, even for poor, black kids.

The situation will never be perfect because in any population of kids, some will always choose ignorance, in spite of everyone's efforts, and for a variety of reasons. So what? This is a free society. You can fail if you want. Government programs have not and will never change this human reality.

JonRyker,
The issue isn't to force people to learn, it's to convince them to or at least encourage them to, to make every opportunity to do so available to them. Yes, we must be cognizant that some are more willing, some are better learners, some are smarter, etc. And provide extra for them. This does NOT mean we ignore the rest.
Your argument is still the same. We must do x or y to help one group and forget about the others. You do not seem to want to grasp that the "others" number in the tens of millions. You do not seem to grasp that ignoring them, letting them fall, takes all of us down with them. You state that the Market does not find room for them. You don't seem to want to grasp that this means the market will ignore 10 of millions of "them". Explain to me how great our country will be when the unemployment rate is 40%.

Chlorine,
While what much of what you say is true, the European system can take a pyramid approach to education because it provides (or did provide) for those who drop out at various points of the process. Until they adopted some socialistic ideas, these people only dropped into the dung heap and created one disaster after another. Much like what is happening to immigrants to Western Europe now.

FYI,

What you're not noticing is that we do not help the non-learners by putting them in with learners and fighting with them all day, thereby ruining it for everybody. What I recommended early in this thread was a GED track for them....at another location or in their own home. Hell, it'd be cheaper to buy them a computer for their GED classes and pay for internet than to pay for several years of nonproductive education.

I didn't identify any groups. They identify through their actions which group they'd like to fit into...the GED group or the regular group. Both diplomas will now have value, because the GED can't be faked, and your regular high school graduates will achieve much higher levels without the GED people in their way. Everybody wins.

Those who choose neither route will end up on the scrap heap. This is true, whether or not you target government programs to them are not. They don't function well enough to be productive members of society. 10% never do. They're the bottom of the bell curve. It's human nature. They don't ever win, regardless of what program is thrown at them.

But, the other 90% will be much better off. In fact, you'd have fewer graduates, more GED's and higher achievement because school would be a place where actual learning takes place, rather than the baby-sitting service it has become. The GED route would have obvious rewards to those pursuing it, without all the hassle of jumping through hoops in a must old high school building hanging out with people you don't want to hang out with for 7 hours.

Everybody wins, except the bottom 10% which, by their nature, will never win. Let's just stop ruining it for everybody by insisting that everybody can be educated the same way. Nonsense.

Posted by moneywar at 2008-04-02 07:21 PM


You should have saved yourself some keystrokes and typed:

"Anybody who disagrees with me about anything is an idiot and a treasonous POS."

JonRyker,

I didn't disagree with the concept of the GED track, nor do I now. I disagree with your general viewpoint and the impression I have that you are focusing on a particular segment and ignoring the rest. You seem content that many will wind up in the "scrap heap". I agree that the bottom 10% cannot be helped. My concern is with the 80% in-between.

"They identify through their actions which group they'd like to fit into..."

Their actions are those of kids who don't like school. Many kids have that attitude. One of my sons' friends was someone who went to an inner city public high school. Was considered a definite dropout. But he ran into a teacher who saw potential in him. That friend responded, graduated, went to college and grad school etc. If he'd been merely identified by his actions, he'd be a lost cause and a drain on society. My sister taught in an inner city puclic school for a while. Bitched about her students every time I talked to her. One time I asked why she kept teaching. She replied that it was her job to give the kids the best she could. She understood that she would fail with most. But the ones she succeeded with were worth the effort.

Bitching thst schools have become baby sitting clinics is undoubtedly good for your soul. Your solution of tossing the baby with the bath water, though, is counterproductive.

"we do not help the non-learners by putting them in with learners and fighting with them all day, thereby ruining it for everybody."

If you want to toss the non-learners aside and forget about them, then, yes. The best way to help them would be to challenge them, to convince them to compete with their fellow students. You sound very much like teachers who have lost the desire to deal with obstacles, to actually teach.

Students are given the opportunity to succeed or fail
by their own efforts, or lack thereof.

The public school system is far from perfect
but if a student (for example) applies his or
her self, that student can earn scholarships,
or at least be ready for college.

On the other hand if a student wants to KEEP IT
REAL (not act white) that student is free to
be an academic failure - which often leads to
being a social parasite.

By the way, if a person manages to get past
the 5th grade and cannot read, write and
figure, that person is a LOSER.

Pouring more billions into the system won't solve
a thing: you can't MAKE a person care.

We don't demand or even expect excellence, we embrace and celebrate mediocrity. We give every kid a participation trophy. In my highschool, basically a B average got you on the honor roll. WTF. You could get a B by turning in your homework and not sleeping in class.

We also work under the myth that everyone needs a college degree, no matter what. We tell our kids that they are somehow worth less if they work in a trade profession. They have to go to college. I will take a skilled plumber, electrician, or mechanic over every socialogy or general studies major any day.

I'm a public school science teacher, and, unlike a lot of these dumbasses, I actually deal with the kids.

The situation can be made a lot better by giving kids the choice and making them see the need to be better educated. It is not even close to hopeless, even for poor, black kids.

The situation will never be perfect because in any population of kids, some will always choose ignorance, in spite of everyone's efforts, and for a variety of reasons. So what? This is a free society. You can fail if you want. Government programs have not and will never change this human reality.


Posted by jonryker

While I agree that very few children are hopeless at least at an early age, and good teaching goes a long way. I give a lot of credit to my teachers, most importantly my parents. However, 70% choosing ignorance is not trivial. It's apathy. Not to mention that they have a negative effect on the %30 who try.

sorry i F'ed up and forgot the

The Day After....
These startling statistics were "revealed" I sat with the Heads of The Ohio State University's "BioMedical Sciences" program to discuss my gathering video footage & conducting interviews of students & faculty who participate in the program.
The intent of the production was to present to minority students & students from disadvantaged backgrounds & underserved communities an example of the new and exciting technologies which are available to them if they achieve academically.
Ohio State University Boasts to be 1 of only 2 universities in the nation which offers this major at the undergraduate level.
The intent of the production is to inspire & motivate these students to not just graduate but to be academically successful.
After explaining to the "department heads" the projects intent & design I was told that the undergraduate biomedical sciences department of the Ohio State University has
NO DESIRE to expand their program to this type of student population.
Dispite the fact that Columbus, OH is making Big Plans to become a leader in BioTechnology.
Dispite the Fact that there are grants to get students from disadvantaged backgrounds into the field.
Dispite these Staggering NON-Graduation Statistics.
I guess the motto of "Do Something Big" only applies to the "Advantaged"
The Next Day, the mayor of Columbus Ohio was in Israel to promote BioTechnology & to encourage these types of companies to come here to create jobs that these students will never get to experience & their hopes are being castrated at the educational level by schools & universities.
It has been 40 years since the Assassination of MLK. And still we are not free to even enjoy the liberties of academics. By Deciding to treat its own citizenry in this manner The Ohio State University is deciding to be a major contributor to the next generation of Crime, Homelessness, Drug Abuse, Drug Addiction & Poverty.