greater love hath no man when he lays his life down for another.

john 15:13

May he rest in peace and may the Lord comfort his family...classy guy.

Courage, Honor, Dignity, and Integrity.

I just read about this story this morning in the newspaper. What a brave and heroic man he was take that grenade himself to save the lives of the other three.

One thing that struck me when I saw his picture in the L.A. Times (and there is a different photo of him here when you click on this article) is this guy had the nicest smile. Guess it came from the goodness inside of him.

Rest in peace Warrior.

That kind of loyalty is truly humbling.

They need to come up with a new medal, higher than the Medal of Honor, just for men who take a grenade for their comrades and it should come with a 50 million dollar bonus for their families.

RIP

In addition to the 50 Million dollars, their families should never have to pay taxes again.

Same goes for those who are awarded a Purple Heart.

"They need to come up with a new medal, higher than the Medal of Honor, just for men who take a grenade for their comrades and it should come with a 50 million dollar bonus for their families."

You don't reward loyalty to comrades with money. I'd defend my buddies in a bar fight no matter what as well. Do I get $50M? If you still feel so obliged and romantic about this concept why don't you personally donate $10k of your own money to this man's family as a start?

I'd defend my buddies in a bar fight no matter what as well.

Getting into a drunken bar fight does even compare with the courage and honor involved in willingly placing your body on a live hand grenade to save the lives of others.

What a foolish analogy.

Cheers,
Walt

If you still feel so obliged and romantic about this concept why don't you personally donate $10k of your own money to this man's family as a start?

I didn't order that man to war, the government did.

I don't know if I have spent 10K but I know I have spent well over 2K buying drinks for soldiers in airports.

Cheers,
Walt

What a foolish analogy.

It's furio. What do you expect.

Same goes for those who are awarded a Purple Heart.

Posted by Walt at 2008-04-02 05:25 AM


Like Kerry?

Yes.

If you got a Purple Heart, you shouldn't have to pay taxes.

"Getting into a drunken bar fight does even compare with the courage and honor involved in willingly placing your body on a live hand grenade to save the lives of others.

What a foolish analogy."

you obviously haven't been in a bad bar fight. The analogy is you stand by your mates whenever. Don't let the romance of the military and war cloud your perspective.

Actually more interesting than the cash award is the gentleman who died has a middle eastern last name "Monsoor". I wonder if he is muslim?

I'm having a hard time distinguishing between a Muslim who blows himself up and a Navy Seal who blows himself up.

I'm having a hard time distinguishing between a Muslim who blows himself up and a Navy Seal who blows himself up.

Allow me to help:

A Muslim (your innuendo suggests a suicide bomber) who blows himself up: Takes the time to scope out a civilian epicenter. Then, straps an explosive to his body, along with a bunch of shards of metal which will serve as projectiles upon detonation. Then, said bomber picks a busy time of day, walks in to the previously-scoped epicenter, and then detonates with the intent to injure and/or kill as many people as possible.

A Navy Seal who blows himself up: Volunteers for duty and is assigned. In the course of serving, sees some action. When a live grenade is tossed within the vicinity of himself and his fellow soldiers he has but a split-second to react. Within that brief time period he chooses to jump atop the grenade thus ensuring death for himself, yet providing a degree of protection for his fellow soldiers. His act of personal sacrifice is NOT premeditated AND it's toward saving the lives of others. His actions, at that moment, are toward saving lives; which is exactly the opposite of the actions of a suicide bomber.

"I'm having a hard time distinguishing between a Muslim who blows himself up and a Navy Seal who blows himself up."

Lemme help you with that, RAY:

A Muslim blows himself up to intentionally KILL as many innocent women and children that he can.
A Navy SEAL blows himself up to SAVE those around him.

Now...can you distinguish the difference, RAY?

That had to be explained to you, Ray?

Man, this guy was some hero. I remember all the stories throughout the Vietnam War of guys who jumped on top of a grenade to do the same.

A recent civilian example is the guy who threw himself on top of the man who'd had a seizure and fallen on the train tracks in NYC - saving his life. (Rob Asshole called him a douchebag LOL I think we know who the douchebag is.....begins with Rob and ends with Asshole)

"That had to be explained to you, Ray?"

Ray hates the military. I think he was tossed out early on for bed-wetting and he holds a grudge.

Furio,

I have tried to stop heaping insults on people, but you are making it harder and harder to refrain.

you obviously haven't been in a bad bar fight. The analogy is you stand by your mates whenever. Don't let the romance of the military and war cloud your perspective.

You obviously haven't been in combat. You obviously don't know what it is like to advance into enemy fire. You obviously don't know that most people run away when bullets start flying and while I am fortunate to not ever have had a grenade land next to me, I am pretty sure my first instinct would be to run. This guy chose not to run; instead he immediately heaped his body on that grenade knowing full well that he would probably die to save his buddies.

Your perverted mind has somehow made you think that being macho or tough is the same thing as what this guy did. Unless they were tossing grenades in that bar, you haven't even the foggiest understanding of the magnitude of what this guy did.

And if I had to chose between who would stand with in a drunken bar fight and one that would sacrifice his life to save me; I would go with the guy who would take the grenade any day, and leave the bar fighting to you and your drunk buddies.

Cheers,
Walt

Wow Ray you managed to offend everone possible with your comment. Liberals, Conservatives and Muslims. You won the Douchebag Triple Crown.

"Your perverted mind has somehow made you think that being macho or tough is the same thing as what this guy did. Unless they were tossing grenades in that bar, you haven't even the foggiest understanding of the magnitude of what this guy did."

Walt,

It was an instinctual reaction. Don't be so melodramatic. I'm not degregating the guy just your emotional response. Most people take care of business when they have to without much conscious thought to the risk. Like the subway guy or a normal parent protecting their child.

Jest,


Ray hates the military. I think he was tossed out early on for bed-wetting and he holds a grudge.


I've been around this site a long time and have thus been reading Ray's commentary for about 5 years.

Ultimately, I think he was attempting to conflate the 'morality' of an event such as the Iraq war with blatant acts of terrorism. If I am reading him correctly, I think he views both the Muslim suicide bomber and the Navy Seal mentioned in this thread as hapless pawns being manipulated by larger, nefarious forces.

That said, I thought he concocted a poor comparison, which is why I replied. Nevetheless, I think I know where he was going with this and if I am correct, his position is not as shitty as it came accross.

Regardless, I suspect that Ray will follow up with clarification.

I'm not degregating the guy just your emotional response.

That is exactly what you are doing and it is the reason people like you piss me off.

You are saying that drunken bar fighting is the same as giving up one's life for others and now you just said most people would do it without conscious thought.

Wow Ray you managed to offend everone possible with your comment. Liberals, Conservatives and Muslims. You won the Douchebag Triple Crown.

Posted by furio at 2008-04-02 08:22

Thank you.

Eisenhower warned us about the military-industrial complex. It's destroying this country. You idiots are going to have to learn the hard way.

"You are saying that drunken bar fighting is the same as giving up one's life for others and now you just said most people would do it without conscious thought."

No instinctually defending your friends is. The government hands out awards like the MOH to glorify sacrifice and work as a recruiting tool. This is not to take away Mr. Monsoor's sacrifice but to put it in perspective.

Furio,
You and your "mates" swinging your purses in a ghey bar cat fight doesn't quite measure up to somebody jumping on a hand grenade in order to save the lives of his sniper team.
I'm pretty sure you're aware of that. I'm also pretty sure you wish you could edit those stupid remarks.

"I'm also pretty sure you wish you could edit those stupid remarks."

Sorry Chairpoodle no urge at all. Still glorifying the military I see. You might want to use examples of guys who repeatedly put themselves in harms way like many of the unarmed medics who received the MoH. That is absolutely amazing since it requires a constant thought process to be exposed to deadly risk not a split second reaction.

The government hands out awards like the MOH to glorify sacrifice and work as a recruiting tool.

The government doesn't just "hand out" the medal of Honor you ignorant asshole. And they don't award them for sacrifice, they award them for displaying "conspicuously by gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States". Sound like a bar fight asshole? In the history of the award only 3,465 of these medals have been EARNED. Sound like a bar fight?

You say that many people would do just the same thing? Really? And you mention some guy jumping in front of a train. The reason you know about this is because it is so rare! If was not uncommon the guy would have gotten another ARCOM.

It is not the Medal that generates recruits, it is the story behind the medal and the desire it instills in many young people to want to live up to the high standards achieved by the man who wears it. In the military, a junior ranking person must salute the higher ranking officers. The top General in the Army is required to salute the President. The President of the fucking country is required to salute a Medal of Honor recipient, not a drunken bar fighter.

Sorry Chairpoodle no urge at all. Still glorifying the military I see. You might want to use examples of guys who repeatedly put themselves in harms way like many of the unarmed medics who received the MoH. That is absolutely amazing since it requires a constant thought process to be exposed to deadly risk not a split second reaction.

Posted by furio at 2008-04-02 08:48 AM | Reply


Who is glorifying the military? Anyone that saves the lives of others by giving up his, regardless of the profession, is a hero.

Don't forget stupid, you're the one trying to equate his act with you and your punk friends getting in to bar fights.
By the way, throwing your umbrella drink in somebody's face isn't a bar fight you sissy.

That Navy Seal died for George Bush, Dick Cheney and their cronies. Don't kid yourself.

Posted by Ray at 2008-04-02 08:58 AM | Reply | Flag:

You can have this one 101, I ain't wasting my time.

That Navy Seal died for George Bush, Dick Cheney and their cronies. Don't kid yourself.

Posted by Ray at 2008-04-02 08:58 AM


Tell that to his buddies (and their friends and families) who survived as a result of his heroism.

His self-sacrifice didn't save the lives of George Bush or Dick Cheney.

Nothing wrong with hating and opposing the rationale behind the war itself. That said, denigrating true acts of heroism is counter-porductive.

WWI - MOH Recipient

ADKINSON, JOSEPH B.

Rank and organization: Sergeant, U.S. Army, Company C, 119th Infantry, 30th Division. Place and date: Near Bellicourt, France, 29 September 1918. Entered service at: Memphis, Tenn. Born: 4 January 1892, Egypt, Tenn. G.O. No.: 59, W.D., 1919. Citation: When murderous machinegun fire at a range of 50 yards had made it impossible for his platoon to advance, and had caused the platoon to take cover Sgt. Adkinson alone, with the greatest intrepidity, rushed across the 50 yards of open ground directly into the face of the hostile machinegun kicked the gun from the parapet into the enemy trench, and at the point of the bayonet captured the 3 men manning the gun. The gallantry and quick decision of this soldier enabled the platoon to resume its advance.

WWII - MOH Recipient

*GALT, WILLIAM WYLIE

Rank and organization: Captain, U.S. Army, 168th Infantry, 34th Infantry Division. Place and date: At Villa Crocetta, Italy, 29 May 1944. Entered service at: Stanford, Mont. Birth: Geyser, Mont. G.O. No.: 1, 1 February 1945. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty. Capt. Galt, Battalion S3, at a particularly critical period following 2 unsuccessful attacks by his battalion, of his own volition went forward and ascertained just how critical the situation was. He volunteered, at the risk of his life, personally to lead the battalion against the objective. When the lone remaining tank destroyer refused to go forward, Capt. Galt jumped on the tank destroyer and ordered it to precede the attack. As the tank destroyer moved forward, followed by a company of riflemen, Capt. Galt manned the .30-caliber machinegun in the turret of the tank destroyer, located and directed fire on an enemy 77mm. anti-tank gun, and destroyed it. Nearing the enemy positions, Capt. Galt stood fully exposed in the turret, ceaselessly firing his machinegun and tossing hand grenades into the enemy zigzag series of trenches despite the hail of sniper and machinegun bullets ricocheting off the tank destroyer. As the tank destroyer moved, Capt. Galt so maneuvered it that 40 of the enemy were trapped in one trench. When they refused to surrender, Capt. Galt pressed the trigger of the machinegun and dispatched every one of them. A few minutes later an 88mm shell struck the tank destroyer and Capt. Galt fell mortally wounded across his machinegun. He had personally killed 40 Germans and wounded many more. Capt. Galt pitted his judgment and superb courage against overwhelming odds, exemplifying the highest measure of devotion to his country and the finest traditions of the U.S. Army.

Vietnam - MOH Recipient

*ALBANESE, LEWIS

Rank and organization: Private First Class, U.S. Army, Company B, 5th Battalion (Airmobile), 7th Cavalry, 1st Cavalry Division. Place and date: Republic of Vietnam, 1 December 1966. Entered service at: Seattle, Wash. Born: 27 April 1946, Venice, Italy. G.O. No.: 12, 3 April 1968. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action at the risk of his life and beyond the call of duty. Pfc. Albanese's platoon, while advancing through densely covered terrain to establish a blocking position, received intense automatic weapons fire from close range. As other members maneuvered to assault the enemy position, Pfc. Albanese was ordered to provide security for the left flank of the platoon. Suddenly, the left flank received fire from enemy located in a well-concealed ditch. Realizing the imminent danger to his comrades from this fire, Pfc. Albanese fixed his bayonet and moved aggressively into the ditch. His action silenced the sniper fire, enabling the platoon to resume movement toward the main enemy position. As the platoon continued to advance, the sound of heavy firing emanated from the left flank from a pitched battle that ensued in the ditch which Pfc. Albanese had entered. The ditch was actually a well-organized complex of enemy defenses designed to bring devastating flanking fire on the forces attacking the main position. Pfc. Albanese, disregarding the danger to himself, advanced 100 meters along the trench and killed 6 of the snipers, who were armed with automatic weapons. Having exhausted his ammunition, Pfc. Albanese was mortally wounded when he engaged and killed 2 more enemy soldiers in fierce hand-to-hand combat. His unparalleled actions saved the lives of many members of his platoon who otherwise would have fallen to the sniper fire from the ditch, and enabled his platoon to successfully advance against an enemy force of overwhelming numerical superiority. Pfc. Albanese's extraordinary heroism and supreme dedication to his comrades were commensurate with the finest traditions of the military service and remain a tribute to himself, his unit, and the U.S. Army.

Afghanistan - MOH Recipient


*MURPHY, MICHAEL P.

Rank and Organization: Lieutenant, United States Navy
For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty as the leader of a special reconnaissance element with Naval Special Warfare Task Unit Afghanistan on 27 and 28 June 2005. While leading a mission to locate a high-level anti-coalition militia leader, Lieutenant Murphy demonstrated extraordinary heroism in the face of grave danger in the vicinity of Asadabad, Konar Province, Afghanistan. On 28 June 2005, operating in an extremely rugged enemy-controlled area, Lieutenant Murphy's team was discovered by anti-coalition militia sympathizers, who revealed their position to Taliban fighters. As a result, between 30 and 40 enemy fighters besieged his four-member team. Demonstrating exceptional resolve, Lieutenant Murphy valiantly led his men in engaging the large enemy force. The ensuing fierce firefight resulted in numerous enemy casualties, as well as the wounding of all four members of the team. Ignoring his own wounds and demonstrating exceptional composure, Lieutenant Murphy continued to lead and encourage his men. When the primary communicator fell mortally wounded, Lieutenant Murphy repeatedly attempted to call for assistance for his beleaguered teammates. Realizing the impossibility of communicating in the extreme terrain, and in the face of almost certain death, he fought his way into open terrain to gain a better position to transmit a call. This deliberate, heroic act deprived him of cover, exposing him to direct enemy fire. Finally achieving contact with his Headquarters, Lieutenant Murphy maintained his exposed position while he provided his location and requested immediate support for his team. In his final act of bravery, he continued to engage the enemy until he was mortally wounded, gallantly giving his life for his country and for the cause of freedom. By his selfless leadership, courageous actions, and extraordinary devotion to duty, Lieutenant Murphy reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.

Iraq - MOH Recipient

*SMITH, PAUL R.

Rank and Organization: Sergeant First Class, United States Army
For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty:Sergeant First Class Paul R. Smith distinguished himself by acts of gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty in action with an armed enemy near Baghdad International Airport, Baghdad, Iraq on 4 April 2003. On that day, Sergeant First Class Smith was engaged in the construction of a prisoner of war holding area when his Task Force was violently attacked by a company-sized enemy force. Realizing the vulnerability of over 100 fellow soldiers, Sergeant First Class Smith quickly organized a hasty defense consisting of two platoons of soldiers, one Bradley Fighting Vehicle and three armored personnel carriers. As the fight developed, Sergeant First Class Smith braved hostile enemy fire to personally engage the enemy with hand grenades and anti-tank weapons, and organized the evacuation of three wounded soldiers from an armored personnel carrier struck by a rocket propelled grenade and a 60mm mortar round. Fearing the enemy would overrun their defenses, Sergeant First Class Smith moved under withering enemy fire to man a .50 caliber machine gun mounted on a damaged armored personnel carrier. In total disregard for his own life, he maintained his exposed position in order to engage the attacking enemy force. During this action, he was mortally wounded. His courageous actions helped defeat the enemy attack, and resulted in as many as 50 enemy soldiers killed, while allowing the safe withdrawal of numerous wounded soldiers. Sergeant First Class Smith's extraordinary heroism and uncommon valor are in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit upon himself, the Third Infantry Division "Rock of the Marne," and the United States Army.

Any of those sound like a bar fight Furio?

Cheers,
Walt

This is the only Medal of Honor recipient I have had the privilege to meet. I met him attending OCS at Fort Benning in 2000. When I met him he was an old man, and one of the finest men I have had the pleasure of meeting.

"He commanded Company E in an attack against a reinforced enemy battalion which had held up the American advance for two days from its entrenched positions around a 3-story concrete building. With another infantry company and armored vehicles, Company E advanced against heavy machinegun and other automatic weapons fire with Lt. Nett spearheading the assault against the strongpoint. During the fierce hand-to-hand encounter which ensued, he killed seven deeply entrenched Japanese with his rifle and bayonet and, although seriously wounded, gallantly continued to lead his men forward, refusing to relinquish his command. Again he was severely wounded, but, still unwilling to retire, pressed ahead with his troops to assure the capture of the objective, Wounded once or more in the final assault, he calmly made all arrangements for the resumption of the advance, turned over his command to another officer, and then walked unaided to the rear for medical treatment. By his remarkable courage in continuing forward through sheer determination despite successive wounds, Lt. Nett provided an inspiring example for his men and was instrumental in the capture of a vital strongpoint."

Tell that to his buddies (and their friends and families) who survived as a result of his heroism.

His self-sacrifice didn't save the lives of George Bush or Dick Cheney.

You are being too literal Jeff. Our military is fighting and dying for madmen obsessed for fortune and political power. It's contributing to more wars, bankrupting this country and leading to a day when this country will be under marshal law. We are seeing the early stages of it now with the militarization of the police and the dismantling of the Constitution.

Ray,

I don't fully agree with your position, yet I understand the crux of it....

Our military is fighting and dying for madmen obsessed for fortune and political power. It's contributing to more wars, bankrupting this country and leading to a day when this country will be under marshal law. We are seeing the early stages of it now with the militarization of the police and the dismantling of the Constitution.


Fair enough.


Nevertheless, you are taking the personal, individual sacrifice of 1 man, and conflating it with the barbarism of a suicide bomber.

You were addressing a broad point and using a seriously flawed narrow example as your ammunition.

RIP HERO.

Ray,

Our military is fighting and dying for madmen obsessed for fortune and political power.

Allow me to interject. When you say this, you are intentionally or unintentionally denigrating the service of the men and women of the Armed forces. You are also ascribing to every person in the military the reason you think he or she may be serving. Allow me to post a revision to your statement which would be much less offensive to those of us who have served or are serving. I am confident I speak for more than just myself.

Our military is fighting and dying because madmen are obsessed with fortune and political power.

Do you see the difference? When you say it your way you sound like you are calling everyone in the Military a fool or worse. If that was your intention, I feel sorry for you, if not, a simple modification makes you sound like actually you care for the troops and hate the administration. Hopefully it is a win-win for you.

Cheers,
Walt

I don't see much of a difference. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong half of the hair you've split.

I don't see much of a difference.

Either you are trolling or you are ignorant. Read the bloody post again.

Cheers,
Walt

Walt-
I read the two statements, yours and the other, and I don't see a striking difference between the two. I'm sorry if that makes you angry and impatient.

Walt and Jeff

No matter how you sugar coat it, it still comes out the same. The political class is leading this country to ruin and you fools are following. Why do you think I'm so big on silver and gold?

Ray,

I don't give a shit about your gold. You have it, I have it, and lots of people have it. If you don't have it, you may be screwed, but not anytime soon.

Please address the point I made. Surely you can see the difference.

AmU

One convoy was empty trucks hauling 'air'.

When a convoy in Kuwait loads up with water and heads North, it eventually reaches its destination. At such destination, it would probably offload said cargo. The trucks would then need to be returned to Kuwait, or wherever, to get more cargo. Those trucks may be carrying air.

Cheers,
Walt

AmU

Another scenario.

Camp A needs to move some HMMWVs to Camp B. The trucks to move said HMMWVs are in Kuwait. The moving trucks must get from Kuwait to Camp A in order to move HMMWVs to Camp B. The convoy escorting those trucks from Kuwait to Camp A would be carrying "air".

Cheers,
Walt

Surely these "GI's" are privy to KBR's mission and are aware of their contract particulars.

Clowns like Au are a dime a dozen. They'll take the word of a soldier only as long as they agree with it, otherwise the soldier is an idiot.

Boyd,
Why are you up so early? Did your wife wake you up?

Walt

I addressed your point and I made my point three times, as direct and succinct as I can.

Walt,

You seriously don't get it. Why don't you just grab a box of tissues and watch Garden of Stone for the thousandth time? You are a drama queen. Again just so you don't say I'm being disrespectful Mr. Monsoon made a tremendous sacrifice but you over do it on the glorification. And yes your other postings of MoH were impressive but not supporting you emotional hero worshipping and deifying of military acts.

Walt,

You seriously don't get it. Why don't you just grab a box of tissues and watch Garden of Stone for the thousandth time? You are a drama queen. Again just so you don't say I'm being disrespectful Mr. Monsoon made a tremendous sacrifice but you over do it on the glorification. And yes your other postings of MoH were impressive but not supporting you emotional hero worshipping and deifying of military acts.

"The trucks would then need to be returned to Kuwait, or wherever, to get more cargo. Those trucks may be carrying air.

I think the trucker term is deadheading.

Ray,

No you haven't, and Furio, I am surprised you could show your face back on this thread.

You have been owned.

Deal with it.

I am going to try to download a movie.

Cheers,
Walt

Furio,

Owned by Walt

Don't worry, I am not like your ass worshipping buddies.

A fool like you would be an ass salad for the masses in A-Stan.

I won't call you a fag because it won't be up to you if they bang you all night long.

Kooshat. Koo nee. Same as dodecki and t'naich, tanta.

Cheers,
Walt

Kooshat. Koo nee. Same as dodecki and t'naich, tanta.

No matter the language... I own you Furio.

Cheers,
Walt

I am surprised you could show your face back on this thread.

You have been owned.

I'm a keyboard warrior. Remember?
Nobody owns me. That's why I'm in such a small minority on this site.

I'm a keyboard warrior. Remember?
Nobody owns me. That's why I'm in such a small minority on this site.

Posted by Ray at 2008-04-02 11:43 AM | Reply


GayRay,
Time for a new pair of glasses gramps.

Ah the conceit of youth: know-nothings who know it all. I'm standing on the sidelines watching this country collapse and you fools are contributing to your own destruction. LOL!

didn't read the article, but how do you put a medal on a seal? It was like a trained seal?

I'll shut up now

2006?
That is more than a year after Cheney's brilliant last throe announcement, right.
Probably actually died of a chocolate overdose or rose allergy.

Clowns like Au are a dime a dozen. They'll take the word of a soldier only as long as they agree with it, otherwise the soldier is an idiot.

101stAsshole

Making up bullshit again, eh moron? The documentary I referred to in my post was filmed by members of an Army company in Iraq. The footage it was entirely created from was less than a few weeks old.

It's obvious documentaries are way beyond your scope of TV watching. They broadcast documentaries where you live for sure. You're just too disinterested in reality to ever flip on anything but Southpark, or read anything with big words. Being the W fan you are I"m hardly surprised physically grown men like you can never come up with anything more mature than a 12 year old is capable of.

Some of us speak from informed opinion. Clowns like you pull crap out of your derrire and expect anyone to take you seriously. You're a 'beer, bratwurst, and bullshit' boring imbecile. People only want you here for amusement. That's all you're good for. Maybe your fellow clowns make you feel special. Others like myself grew tired of your act by the second hour of reading you typical posts that haven't changed since day one.

OK Look busy now!!!!

The convoy escorting those trucks from Kuwait to Camp A would be carrying "air".

WALT

These guys were guarding convoys of 8-10 semis during all the footage they shot.

Their point was that many times they were guarding 'air' in the semis. There were 10-15 separate 10 hour trips covered in the documentary. The night runs were particularly dangerous, and in the opinion of the Army company completely unnecessary risks for all concerned.

The article I posted a link to "The Great Iraq Swindle" documented instances where similar runs were made simply so KBR could bill hours, putting GI's lives at risk unnecessarily - at night - on dangerous IED laden roads - just like the guys in the documentary I mentioned.

All of the guys in the company in the documentary were burned out, and felt like their lives were being put at risk for no good reason. They're sick of Iraq, and don't feel the U.S. is serving the military well. Especially since the Iraqis have made so little progress for all the blood and treasure.

ConversionvanUnity,
Are you really that dumb to believe what you just typed in any way refuted what I said? Never mind, I'm sure you are.
You see stupid, clowns like you (the dime a dozen crowd) will piggyback a soldiers opinion when it supports your argument, but when the soldier's opinion is contrary to yours you'll claim that they're stupid or uninformed.

Tell me spooky, when you see soldiers on television do you still try to give them doughnuts and sing them show-tunes?
Entertain me beotch.

Koonee


If that is Pushto (or Darri) I think Walt just called you "Butt-face". LOL

Uh, oh. Someone's trolling and it ain't me.

I post and two and a half seconds later moron is typing bullshit....

Freaky

I wish there was an 'ignore' button so I didn't have to scroll past your bullshit 101

Try 201 or something. Your act is fucking old and worn out

Why not just be a man of your word and go over to Kos only to "come back from time to time" to check things out?

Look, I don't want to upset you too much because I'll feel guilty tonight thinking about the poor soul you're attempting to lure in to the Mystery Machine, so I'll cut you some slack now.

Why doesn't that Changling...Betelg, boyd/barney/and all those other names he had just stick with one name? Answer that question Boyd.

Furio, only you could find a way to denegrate the actions of this brave man. It really gives insight into your character, what little there is of it.

It doesn't matter if you hate the war and are against it in every way. Many of these soldiers don't feel that way, which means that they WANT to be there and take great pride in what they are doing. Which means your opinion doesn't matter to them. Which in turn means that he did this to save his buddies lives and nothing more. If you can't see the courage of that and the all out giving of oneself for another then, like I said, it reflects on you as a person.

I believe that jumping on a grenade to save your comrades is the ultimate in selflessness.

I believe that there are many of our soldiers (of course every other country too) in all branches of the service are capable of this act.

I believe that this action has occurred in every conflict / war at one time or another.

I DON'T BELIEVE THE MEDIA! EVER!

BRING ALL TROOPS HOME!

Nobody owns me

Posted by 101Chairborne at 2008-04-02 11:46 AM

Well Chairpoodle,

That's because no one except your husband has access to the jar that hold what you would call a pair of balls.

I'm right aren't I punkin.

Happily gave his life for Bush's Oil War!

So Michael Monsoor was given the wonderful honor of sacrificing his life for Bush's "illegal" Iraq Oil War - I'm sure his shiny,posthumous medal will be a terrific consolation to his family and friends!

People who have never served in the military have no way of understanding the comaraderie and love you develop for your fellow soldiers/shipmates, whatever. Many, if not most of them would do for these people whatever they would do for their own family. That furio thinks that is the equivalent of watching someone's back in a drunken barfight is laughable and sad.

I'm proud to say I, as a veteran, understand that comaraderie and that rare bonding that a non-serviceman could never understand.

Don't make me laugh Goat. I find nothing more offensive to my sense of well being than to subject myself to the servitude of military existence. They made you into a slave and you still think like a slave. The military we have now is a cancer on this country.

If you got a Purple Heart, you shouldn't have to pay taxes.

Posted by Walt at 2008-04-02 07:11 AM | Reply | Flag:

Active Military shouldn't have to pay taxes at all. Hell, most of them are making so little anyways, let them keep it all.

Also, if you're active military, you should be able to walk into any bar at 18 and order a drink.

Active Military shouldn't have to pay taxes at all. Hell, most of them are making so little anyways, let them keep it all.

~Common Sense

Agreed.

Also, if you're active military, you should be able to walk into any bar at 18 and order a drink

Also Agreed.

Common Sense is a good nom de blog fer you, despite the fact that Sense is nowhere near as Common as it should be.

Be Well.

greater love hath no man when he lays his life down for another.

john 15:13

~Posted by nanc

Amen.

RIP Michael A. Monsoor.

Ya done good.

Be Well.

I find nothing more offensive to my sense of well being than to subject myself to the servitude of military existence. They made you into a slave and you still think like a slave. The military we have now is a cancer on this country.


Well, ray, rant all you want. I've been in the service for 6 years. Judging your attitude towards the miltary, you've not served a day. That would make me a better judge of the miltary than you, wouldn't you say?

Care to give me your expertise on any other occupations you've never been a part of? I'm all ears. I need the laughs.

They made you into a slave and you still think like a slave.

Actually, the slave thing did last for the first nine weeks of basic training you are right. But that's where you being correct ends. Here is what the miltary did for me:

Gave me 13 months of electronics training which has served me quite well to date -- 27 years after my discharge and still counting

Gave me free college after I got out. Admittedly, I did not use all those benefits, but I did get free money for several years while I puttered away at some mindless credits in the local college.

Got me my first two houses with no money down and low interest rates.

Got me literally around the world (went to Pakistan twice -- once from Florida and once from Pearl Harbor) and visits to 33 different countries and 55 different ports.

Gave me relationships with other people who I feel as much love for as I do my own family.

Sorry you see merely a "slave" in your closed mindedness. I gained more in the military than you (or anyone who has never been there) can ever imagine. That is your loss.

Don't make me laugh Goat. I find nothing more offensive to my sense of well being than to subject myself to the servitude of military existence. They made you into a slave and you still think like a slave. The military we have now is a cancer on this country.

Posted by Ray at 2008-04-02 09:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

Ray, you have to understand the real definition of 'The Military' I agree with Goat. Hell, we did the same exact job in the same service. While I did work for slave wages, I was sure to get something in return (see the word, lasting friendships and learn electronics)

There are two aspects of the military and too often they're confused. In most cases, when someone refers to the military, especially if they served, we're referring to our fellow service members who are down in the bilge or the foxhole doing the dirty work. NOT the people wearing stars on their lapels and making all the stupid decisions. The other side is the one that the media usually portrays, of 4 & 5 stars working with defense companies and glad-handing the CINC.

These are two completely different worlds and they rarely ever meet.

In most cases, when someone refers to the military, especially if they served, we're referring to our fellow service members who are down in the bilge or the foxhole doing the dirty work.

Excellent point which I failed to make.

If I remember correctly, Csense, didn't you once say you were a sonarman, too?

You're not getting it either, Commensense. Two ways by which countries destroy themselves: welfare and warfare. This country is well past the point of no return. You guys think this is Boy Scouts.

Get some experience in the matter so you can talk about it intelligently and get back with me, Ray. Because without having been there, your ramblings really sound ignorant to those of us who have been.

Lucky for you your hate and disdain for those who protect our country will not prevent them from keeping you safe. They'll still do their job and you will still benefit.

Why don't you send those guys (I'm talking about the jr enlisted folks) a letter and let them know how much you despise them, Ray? Or is it not possible for you to be that honest with them? I've a feeling your bravado ends on this blog.

Go back to admiring yourself in your shiny metal playthings.

I'm having a hard time distinguishing between a Muslim who blows himself up and a Navy Seal who blows himself up.

Posted by Ray at 2008


it has been well over a year since I vowed to never answer this poster again but I have to, just for a moment, take that back.
I simple cant believe I just read this. I am still in a very small degree of shock that someone would actually type this.
someone please tell me that this comment was retracted or explained or something because if not then it is official. I HAVE SEEN EVERYTHING....

and now back to my vow of silence.

went to Pakistan twice -- once from Florida and once from Pearl Harbor



Let me know which direction you will appear from this time so I can be prepared.

I simply cant believe I just read this. I am still in a very small degree of shock that someone would actually type this.

That's because you don't understand the intent of the writer.

People who fail as human beings (relationship, marriage, careers, etc.) tend to retreat into paranoia and ideological extremism.

And to self-identified logical and rational people, nothing on earth fills that void quite like the ideology of "Libertarianism".

It allows you the luxury of being a (self-consciously and) Socially Determinsitic shitbag (like any Nazi, Eugenist-enthusiast, or Marxist) while embracing more economically viable theory---in this case, Capitalism.

I'm fairly sure ole Ray doesn't quite perceive it at that level, but at the end of the day, Ray has a vested interest in feeling that the driving and "most important" interests in his life are genuine and legitimate.

Ray's most important interest is, apparently, the promulgation of some goofy-assed, Lew Rockwell interpretation of Libertarianism.

Hence the moral equivocation that so enrages you and is so carefully designed to piss you off and warrant your attention.

That's how one behaves when he has created for himself a real-life situation where no one really wants your attention.

A Bible based on astrology.

Economic Apocalypse.

Poorly-reasoned moral equivalence with an intent to irritate the bourgeois norms rather than inform.

Certainly nothing to break a year-long vow of silence over.

People who fail as human beings (relationship, marriage, careers, etc.) tend to retreat into paranoia and ideological extremism.


Posted by Pinche_Mao at 2008-04-03 02:10 AM


Spoken by a ultra-right extremist. That's fucking hilarious. By that logic, Pinche's marriage and/or career is going down the toilet.

"I went to Pakistan twice -- once from Florida and once from Pearl Harbor

- Goatman"

Let me know which direction you will appear from this time so I can be prepared.

Posted by Tosser at 2008-04-03 01:38 AM

Hahahaha -- good one, Tosser. You crack me up sometimes. Actually, you do have a good dry sense of humor.
In fact, I'll bet if you ever had the chance to meet up with Goatman he'd be happy to buy you a "near beer" (it's non-alcoholic) and you two might have a lot of laughs.

You're on about the same tier as Ray, Bill.

Keep you colon clean.

That's all I've got for you.

Here's more about Navy SEAL Michael A. Monsoor along with a detailed account of what happened that day when he took the grenade to save the lives other three men. Did you know he also won a Silver Star?

This memorial is from the Navy Seal's website.

Let me know which direction you will appear from this time so I can be prepared.

You think I would got back to that shithole voluntarily?

You think I would got back to that shithole voluntarily?

Posted by goatman at 2008-04-03 02:51 AM | Reply | Flag:

LOL. I am being sent there soon (Lahore). A buddy of mine asked me if I wanted to spend the weekend at his place in Waziristan.

Uhhhh, you mean the Waziristan where Osama is? Where they would love to capture me and whack my head off?

Sure! Love to!

Cheers,
Walt

Where they would love to capture me and whack my head off?

Tosser is just the guy to do it. He has already expressed an enamorization for sharp knives and has stated how he will "kick Americans in the balls". A real toughie to be very afraid of this one is. At least that's what he wants you to think. My opinion is that he is still learning how to manage this newly found testosterone coursing through his veins and is shaking off the last stages of acne.

You think I would got back to that shithole voluntarily?



There. That takes care of that.

There. That takes care of that.

So much for furthering any Pakistani-U.S. relationships hahaha

Since I don't smoke or drink so I have no idea what to compare these against.

Posted by Tosser

so un American!

He has already expressed an enamorization for sharp knives


I am a martial artist, you prick. I am into all sorts of weapons.



has stated how he will "kick Americans in the balls".



If you read that post again, I said that first if O'Binbin turns up at my gate and asks for a cup of sugar, I'll shoot him in the head.

THEN... because I am already pissed off and my day has been ruined the last thing I need would be for an American to show up at my gate and ask to borrow a cup of sugar.

When I am in a bad mood I want to kick people in the balls. One shouldn't take it personally. Just keep your distance until I settle down. LOL

Will this be the first time you've ever been to Lahore -- or to Pakistan?
How long will you have to stay there and will you be in a protected area?


Haven't ever been. I am looking forward to it.

You don't need to be in protected areas in Pakistan. (Well maybe a few areas you would). I will just be riding around like everyone else.

Although if Tosser knows of a reliable source for black market weapons, he is more than welcome to email me.

Cheers,
Walt

If you read that post again, I said that first if O'Binbin turns up at my gate and asks for a cup of sugar, I'll shoot him in the head.

THEN... because I am already pissed off and my day has been ruined the last thing I need would be for an American to show up at my gate and ask to borrow a cup of sugar.

So you DO have a source for arms?

And why would you be in a bad mood? You would be 50M dollars richer.

Cheers,
Walt

THEN... because I am already pissed off and my day has been ruined the

That is what you said? Really? You DO know this stuff is archived, don't you tosser?

Point is, that if I see O'Binbin at my gate asking to borrow some sugar I will blow his brains out. In a second.

And if I see any lousy Amreekan (this time I am saying it out of contempt) next, I will kick him in the nuts. Won't blow his brains... but he will get a kick in the nuts. Just because.

Posted by Tosser at 2008-03-10 02:41 PM

And why would you be in a bad mood? You would be 50M dollars richer.

Good point. LOL

I am a martial artist, you prick. I am into all sorts of weapons.

I'm impressed.

Won't blow his brains... but he will get a kick in the nuts. Just because.

Posted by Tosser

anger issues?

I'm impressed.

Posted by goatman at 2008-04-03 03:36 AM | Reply | Flag:

Goat,

A lot of them are actually, I was surprised at the number of Pakistanis, and even Afghanis, who are into it.

The Afghanis consider Afghanistan to be the "Heart of Asia", so it must be an Asian thing.

Two of my nieces are into the martial arts, too.

Yes, Goatee, I know what I said. Now I am further clarifying what I meant.

Just don't ask to borrow sugar. Everyone will be happy.

The point is, I will kill O'Binbin... but.. at the most... I will only give you a gentle kick. I mean I have been kicked in the nuts plenty of times. No big deal, yeah?

I don't hate Americans. I just find you irritating sometimes.


Walt:

No, I didn't mean weapons like guns. I don't do guns. I meant martial arts stuff, like nunchucks or small sticks or pointy stuff.

$50 million? I don't think they would just give it to me? There must be a catch to it.

My momma told me to not deal with odd looking people early in the morning or my whole day would be ruined. And she was right.

I often don't even read the papers until evening. Who wants to deal with crap in the mornings?

lol

A lot of the Afghanis look like Asians.

Genghis Khan was here and there was a very huge battle. At the end of the battle, some 1000 Genghis men remained. They had fought so well that the Afghanis let them live. They stayed in Afghanistan and prospered. You bump into a lot of, I don't know if Mongolian is the right word or not, looking people. They are the descendants of Genghis Khans' men. To this day, the people who look like that are called "Thousands" referring to the fact that they are from those original 1000 fighters.

the $50 billion ~ tossy:>)

Walt:

No, I didn't mean weapons like guns. I don't do guns.

Well how were you going to blow his brains out? With numchucks?

And yes, we would give it to. Along with relocation and protection for the rest of your life.

So if you know where he is, let me know. I will be there soon. I got no problems with guns.

We can split the dough. Hell, you can keep 40 million, just show me where he is.

Cheers,
Walt

Well how were you going to blow his brains out?


1. Slingshot and ball-bearings.

OR

2. Ever hear of a matchstick-powder gun? One shot only, muzzle loaded. 50% matchstick powder, 50% sugar? 12 matchheads (or less, I think) will give you enough power to shoot something the size of 22 caliber, about 25 yards with enough force to punch a hole in a tin can full of water.

All you need is a metal pipe and some means (electrical) to fire it.

Just because I don't use or like guns (because of the sound), doesn't mean I can't shoot something at high velocity.

I did make one of those... only as an experiment... but lost it and never made another. It's a silly thing that 14 year olds came up with on the internet.

Believe me, you can do more damage to bad guys with your hands or with some simple martial arts weapon than with something like that. Just throw a large ball bearing into face... see what happens. LOL

Point is, I just used a figure of speech. "Blowing his brains out" sounds a lot more impressive than, "I will trip him and stomp on his head... or apply chokehold..."

I am not kidding about Bin Laden.

Point is, you show me where he is and we both make a bundle.

Ask around.

Walt:

I know you are not kidding. I am not kidding either. If I see him I will kill him.

But this won't happen because:

1. I don't think he is in Pakistan. Someone would have seen him by now.

2. He will never be alone they say.

3. And how on earth do you think I would be able to get info on him? I would rather stay away from such dangerous folk. I have no idea who might be involved and I don't like the idea of becoming toast.

There are like well over a 100 million Pakistanis already ahead of me, very willing to kill this guy and collect the reward. I won't have a chance. LOL

There are like well over a 100 million Pakistanis already ahead of me, very willing to kill this guy

Do you really believe that? That number seems a bit high. Not sure if he could have hid out for so long if the entire population was against him.

He is never alone?

Well keep tossing grenades till he is the only one left.

And for the record...

Why do you want him dead?

It warms my heart to see I've offended so many. You goons want respect and all you are going to get from me is contempt. I'm watching the decline and fall of the American empire and you fools are contributing to it.

Men would die and kill and persecute for God. Now your new god is the State. LOL.

all you are going to get from me is contempt.

Oh, ray, please tell me it isn't so. I'm devastated.

Well Goat, at least in the future you'll know where I'm coming from and you won't be wasting your time on stupid pedantic lectures.

Do you really believe that? That number seems a bit high. Not sure if he could have hid out for so long if the entire population was against him.



Which is why I have a hard time believing he is here.

It is so easy to take a walk down to the coast and get on a fishing trawler to UAE and in 5 days be with his mommy in Saudi.

Even if most of the population of Pakistan doesn't want him dead, I am very sure, most don't want anything to do with him either. If he is killed, I very much doubt there will be much reaction.



He is never alone?


That's what Mushi and New York Times and God knows who else never tire of telling us. That he is always surrounded by real hard-case goons.



Why do you want him dead?



Where do I start?

The man is a threat. He and his kind have killed over 800 Pakistani men in uniform. He wants Pakistan to get into some kind of fight against the world. He wants our nukes even though he has no idea of how to even make one go off. He tried to ruin Pakistan's efforts in Kashmir... which has nothing to do with him.

Basically, he is trying to fire a gun from OUR shoulder. It isn't happening... but that is what he wants.

If it wasn't for our firepower (more than all of the muslim world combined) which he hungers for, he would kill us in a second too.

We don't like it.

And no, it's not because of the reward. Of course $50 million would be great, but I am still sure someone like me won't get it.

Fair enough. I was fishing to see if you would have added the 9/11 attacks to the list of reasons.

My sympathies, of course, on 9-11. But I didn't add it because:

1. It didn't happen to Pakistan. The only reason I would want this person dead... as a Pakistani... would be if he did something against the country.

Which is why I fully support and understand why you would want him dead.


2. Long long before we had heard of O'Binbin, we kind of thought something bad will happen to the US because of American support for all the islamic-types (even in Pakistan). First you support them and then you cut off their funds cold turkey.

So at the risk of sounding callous, the US only got burnt because it was playing with matches.

You guys have no idea how much contempt we have for people who wear Islam on their sleeves.

walt 101
why are you tryin to explain this situation to people whose only experience in puttin on a uniform
is playin with gi joe's
jasman

I cannot stand posts that amount to nothing more than name calling.

that being said

Ray, you're just an ass.

Jas,

Notice my limited interaction. I had many opportunities to engage but chose not to.

It is futile; some people are too far gone. Sad thing is Ray can actually be sane, but then for some reason he goes nuts and starts spouting ridiculous nonsense. Not worth wasting time on mostly.

If you are gonna be crazy, at least be funny.

At least be personable.

1. It didn't happen to Pakistan. The only reason I would want this person dead... as a Pakistani... would be if he did something against the country.

So if he killed 1M Americans and 1M Chinamen, you wouldn't care? They weren't Pakistani, therefore, you don't give a shit.

Cheers,
Walt

Tosser

For the near future, I am not replying to you.

Consider it an indefinite timeout.

"They weren't Pakistani, therefore, you don't give a shit."

Sounds like you think this is a strange or non-normal attitude. Why?

You guys have no idea how much contempt we have for people who wear Islam on their sleeves.


Posted by Tosser


And you will never understand just how much we hate people like you included with those who would commit violent acts on innocents in the name of
Allah. And you can keep your sympathy, it's fake anyway. Besides, we don't need sympathy.

Now, go play in the sand....

As long as it doesn't happen to me, of course I can't think of it as the same as if it had happened to me.

That's human nature dude.

You're taking it the wrong way... but, oh well...

Besides, we don't need sympathy.


Then why are you asking for it? LOL

I mean expecting me to have the same level of horror for 9-11 as an American might have is kind of silly.

Simply because I don't know what people in NY went through. Those who experienced it would, for sure, have to deal with it on a much higher emotional level.

Sheesh... you guys... LOL

What does it matter as long as our interests coincide?

So I don't "feel" for 9-11 as much as an American might. What does it matter as long as I agree.. for reasons of our own.. that O'Binbin should be killed or captured?

This either one of Walt's CIA mind-games or else he is a very immature person.

I hope it's the first one.

In case it's the second one... then up yours mate. LOL

Where are those WMDS?

Anyone?

"...People who have never served in the military have no way of understanding the comaraderie and love you develop for your fellow soldiers/shipmates, whatever...I'm proud to say I, as a veteran, understand that comaraderie and that rare bonding that a non-serviceman could never understand." Posted By Goatman

101 and Walt have a name for people like you:

FAGGOT

Tosser, you have a way of saying something and then trying to back out of it as if you never meant what you said. You did this same thing with the 'Ameerikan' talk. You tried to claim that it was how you talked and it just came out that way, yet you didn't type ANY other word differently. It would only be normal for you to, if your accent was to blame, yet you didn't type anything differently to fit your accent. The only word you typed wrong was American.

Now, you say that we got what we had coming on 9/11 and surround it with 'but I understand why you're upset', and expect us not to see thru to your real feelings about the US. Hey, it's okay if you have disdain for this country, we don't cut people's heads off for feeling that way, but at least have the courage to say what you mean.

And I would love to see an example of where America 'asked' for sympathy. We just asked for other countries to stand beside us on killing Islamofacists. Problem is, there are too many sympathizers like yourself out there who want us to believe that you actually give a shit about it.

The thing is, I know that you know that these guys hate you too for not following their strict interpretation of Islam. I guess you think if it ever came down to it though, it wouldn't be much of a leap for you to convert to their way of thinking.

4 words for you guys, 101, walt & goatman:

Don't Ask! Don't Tell!

From Utah news, Channel 17:

Even the Right and Glorious President Bush is for immoral Sexual Connections between strangers. said Bush:

"...Too many obgyn's aren't able to practice their love with women across this country...."

And rightly so! Afterwards, The President favored another time-tested tradition:

"...Soldiers - in the Miltary aren't able to Practice Their Love by Swallowing...."

A committee panel was then formed and headed up by Generals 101, Walt and Goatman. General Goatman, btw,is himself a great and avid practioneer of Bestial Delights.

More on your ten o'clock news!

The military we have now is a cancer on this country.

Ray,

An unamed soldier in the 82nd Field Artillery Battalion requests your coordinates. His response to your idiotic comment will be arriving soon after....

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh, so the jews were behind 9/11 so the United States would attack their enemies? Gosh, it's all so clear now.

Thank you for the daily anti-semite posting and link. What would the board do without them?

101 and Walt have a name for people like you:

FAGGOT

Posted by DUMPLING1 at 2008-04-03 03:59 PM

That's nice. Lucky for you dump those FAGGOTs are around to ensure your right to call them that exists.

An unamed soldier in the 82nd Field Artillery Battalion requests your coordinates. His response to your idiotic comment will be arriving soon after....

Posted by boaz at 2008-04-03 06:40

Ah the way of the warrior. He's been fed the swill that he is protecting freedom. So how does he deal with Americans who exercise their freedom. Kill all the critics!!!

Another fag who thinks my username is a phallic reference. I understand though, you have dick on the brain a lot. And if you'll check all of my posts you will see that this is the first time I used the term anti-semite, and I did so because it fit.

And I don't know why you posted the link again. Was it not obvious that I already read what it had to say? How else would I have gotten the jews behind 9/11 reference? Or do you just want to make sure that your conspiracy links get posted as much as possible?

Okay, back to your dick dreams.

Ray, you're just an ass.

Posted by kwrx25 at 2008-04-03 12:59

Mirrors don't lie.

Another fag who thinks my username is a phallic reference. I understand though, you have dick on the brain a lot. And if you'll check all of my posts you will see that this is the first time I used the term anti-semite, and I did so because it fit.

And I don't know why you posted the link again. Was it not obvious that I already read what it had to say? How else would I have gotten the jews behind 9/11 reference? Or do you just want to make sure that your conspiracy links get posted as much as possible?

Okay, back to your dick dreams.

Posted by everlong


wow, I didn't even think of that...veri funi!!! FF

f I remember correctly, Csense, didn't you once say you were a sonarman, too?

Posted by goatman at 2008-04-02 10:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

Yes, 53C Tech onboard USS O'BANNON DD-987. A Spruance class destroyer.

You're not getting it either, Commonsense. Two ways by which countries destroy themselves: welfare and warfare. This country is well past the point of no return. You guys think this is Boy Scouts.

Posted by Ray at 2008-04-02 10:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

Boy Scouts? I'm not sure what you mean by that.

I never held my friends hand after seeing him get it caught in a piece of machinery. OH, and he was down in sickbay while I was holding his hand in Shaft alley. I went back to try and find it for him....hardly something you do in the scouts. The stories go on and on and each is pretty much the same.......HARDLY the scouts.


Anyways, I'm no warmonger, but I do think a Defensive Military is essential to any country.

It's not the fault of the Militarys how the CINC chooses to use them.

I remember when the Spruance class starting hitting the fleet. They were "THE" ships at the time.

A few years ago my oil rig was in the shipyards in Brownsville, TX getting some work done and upgrades. I saw them towing a Spruance class ship up the channel. I could see no hull number or ship name on her. She moored across the channel where we were. I got binoculars and finally made out the hull number -- which was painted over. I don't remember now, but I do remember I looked it up and it was the Rodgers. We used to do exercises with the Rodgers.

Over the next three months I watched as they dismantled her. It was kind of sad to see that since I used to sail with her and I knew a few sailors stationed on her. It brought the life cycle of the Spruance class full circle since I was in the Navy when the Spruance class was being commissioned.

I think I have some pictures of her in the shipyards being dismantled. I'll look on my laptop, and if I have some, I'll upload them and be back later with the site.

CS

Since Reagan, we've witnessed the greatest military buildup in human history. This goes well beyond the need for defense. Instead, the military has been a tool for offense.

It's not the fault of the Militarys how the CINC chooses to use them.

The Nuremberg defense was rejected by this very country. It's disgusting how these vets take offense when I remind them how they and their buddies have been misused to destroy and dominate other countries. It suggests to me that their training destroyed their sense of right and wrong. Vets can't claim they were compelled to obey orders.

Boy Scouts teach comrade and duty to principles of peace, not war.

Everyone agrees that neither the Iraqi government nor the Iraqi people ever attacked the United States. Everyone agrees that no Iraqi participated in the 9/11 attacks. There is no question but that in the Iraq War, the United States is the aggressor nation and Iraq is the defending nation.

In the run-up to the invasion, I recall reading an article in which U.S. soldiers were asking military chaplains whether God would forgive them for killing Iraqis. It was obvious that their consciences were bothering them. I suspect that they were wondering whether it was consistent with God's law to kill people whose government had not attacked their country.

I'll never forget reading what some of the chaplains told those soldiers. They told them that they need not concern themselves with what lay ahead. They said that they could place their trust in the judgment of their commander in chief. In other words, they could go into Iraq and kill people without having any crisis of conscience.

One cannot help but wonder whether those chaplains, in reaching their judgment, confronted the critical moral question: How could the killing of any Iraqi be morally justified, given that the U.S. government was going to be the aggressor in the conflict? How could killing people while serving as part of an aggressor force be reconciled with God's laws? I can't help but wonder how many U.S. soldiers who were struggling with their conscience before the invasion are bedeviled by it today.

A reflection of the demise of conscience that has accompanied the warfare state is the fact that, as far as I know, only one U.S. soldier refused to deploy to Iraq on the grounds that to do so would involve the wrongful killing of people. He was an officer -- Lt. Ehren Watada. Watada pointed out that not only was the war on Iraq illegal from the standpoint of U.S. law (because the president had failed to secure the constitutionally required congressional declaration of war against Iraq), it would also constitute the war crime of waging a war of aggression. Watada's conscience would not permit him to kill people in such a conflict.

How was Watada treated by U.S. officials? As a criminal. The U.S. military prosecuted him for refusing to obey orders to deploy to Iraq. He was ridiculed for following the dictates of conscience. The Pentagon's mistreatment of Watada was a powerful message to any other soldier who might be struggling with his conscience -- that this is what happens to people of conscience in the U.S. army.

While several civil libertarians came to Watada's defense, it would be safe to say that most Americans didn't know about or didn't care about his case. Conscience, it is widely assumed, can play no role once the nation is at war, at least not with respect to whether one's own government is in the right or the wrong. All that matters is victory. It was the same mindset that guided most Germans in World War II.

Anyways, I'm no warmonger, but I do think a Defensive Military is essential to any country.

I agree 100%. It's amazing that Ray doesn't realize that without a good nathional defense, the precious little pieces of gold and silver that he wraps his life around would be worth nothing more than whatever value vanity puts on them. He has probably never picked up a history book and read about how tyrants, despots, and dictators steal anything of value from the people in their realm. Ask the Jews of the mid 20th century for example.

Ah, ray, love of gold has really clouded your mind, hasn't it? After hearing ray tirelessly and boringly tout his precious metals ad nauseum, I can just picture him in a room surrounded by gold and silver coins in stacks as he counts them over and over, day after day like some miser from a Charles Dickens novel.

good post ray on:



reflection of the demise of conscience that has accompanied the warfare state is the fact that, as far as I know, only one U.S. soldier refused to deploy to Iraq on the grounds that to do so would involve the wrongful killing of people. He was an officer -- Lt. Ehren Watada. Watada pointed out that not only was the war on Iraq illegal from the standpoint of U.S. law (because the president had failed to secure the constitutionally required congressional declaration of war against Iraq), it would also constitute the war crime of waging a war of aggression. Watada's conscience would not permit him to kill people in such a conflict.

How was Watada treated by U.S. officials? As a criminal. The U.S. military prosecuted him for refusing to obey orders to deploy to Iraq. He was ridiculed for following the dictates of conscience. The Pentagon's mistreatment of Watada was a powerful message to any other soldier who might be struggling with his conscience -- that this is what happens to people of conscience in the U.S. army.

While several civil libertarians came to Watada's defense, it would be safe to say that most Americans didn't know about or didn't care about his case. Conscience, it is widely assumed, can play no role once the nation is at war, at least not with respect to whether one's own government is in the right or the wrong. All that matters is victory. It was the same mindset that guided most Germans in World War II.

Since Reagan, we've witnessed the greatest military buildup in human history.

LOL.

Drag out your history books, ray. Look up this conflict they called World War 2 and check out the military buildup by Japan and Germany prior to it. Do some research and look at how China is currently building up their military. It pales to anything buildup the US has had since WW2.

Goat

You're unfit to tell me about history. The military buildup in Kaiser German precipitated a buildup by European powers to counter to the German buildup. It took one assassination to light the fuse.

The oppressive Treaty of Versailles destroyed the German economy and led to the rise of Hitler. Japan had no intention to attack us until Roosevelt imposed an embargo, I think, of their oil supplies.

And now that this country has as much military power as the rest of the world combined and attacking nations at will, the Chinese have every reason to build up their military to protect their interests. The Chinese military pales in comparison to ours and they don't have a history of foreign aggression like we do.

The lesson not learned: An aggressive military makes enemies. And worst of all, our politicians are doing it on borrowed money, much of it from the Chinese. All they have to do is cut us off economically and we're screwed.

You're unfit to tell me about history. The military buildup in Kaiser German precipitated a buildup by European powers to counter to the German buildup. It took one assassination to light the fuse.

Yes, you are right, of course. But you were still wrong in your original statement. That's what I was challenging you on, not your reasons.

Since Reagan, we've witnessed the greatest military buildup in human history.


Is not correct.

Ah, ray, love of gold has really clouded your mind, hasn't it? After hearing ray tirelessly and boringly tout his precious metals ad nauseum,

In the not to distant future, you are going to wish you knew the history of money.

He has probably never picked up a history book and read about how tyrants, despots, and dictators steal anything of value from the people in their realm. Ask the Jews of the mid 20th century for example.

I know history from Sumeria to the present. We've become the those very things you list, a nation bankrupt morally and economically. That's why I'm so vociferous. Try me.

Than correct me, Goat. What nation has or has ever financed a more powerful military than ours.

In the not to distant future, you are going to wish you knew the history of money.

I'm old enought that I remember people telling my dad that in the not too distant future we would wish we had a fallout shelter.

Than correct me, Goat. What nation has or has ever financed a more powerful military than ours.

I already did. You said

Since Reagan, we've witnessed the greatest military buildup in human history.

The pre WW2 military buildup of Germany and Japan was far greater than the military buildup of the US since WW2. That is part of human history too, you know.

"I'm having a hard time distinguishing between a Muslim who blows himself up and a Navy Seal who blows himself up."

You see this is what happens when my retired Marine husband happens to walk passed the computer while I am reading comments. In response to the above my darling husband dictated the following:

"My name is George Nickerson, I am telling you this, because what you just said is about the dumbest fucking thing I ever heard of in my life. That iraqi suicide bomber doesn't give a shit who he kills with his bomb, he is not trying to save anybody's life, and anyone who thinks differently must be one of the biggest fucking idiots in the world. And by the way you want to come debate me on this? I will tell you where I live, come fucking see me asshole."

I am Litlebritdifrnt and I approved this message.

errata:

The pre WW2 military buildup of Germany and Japan was far greater than the military buildup of the US since WW2.

=

The pre WW2 military buildup of Germany and Japan was far greater than the military buildup of the US since Reagan

"The pre WW2 military buildup of Germany and Japan was far greater than the military buildup of the US since Reagan"

Nonsense. The US spends more on the military each year than most, if not all of the rest of the world combined. Every year of the Reagan administration it built more destructive capacity than Germany ever dreamed of.

And by the way you want to come debate me on this? I will tell you where I live, come fucking see me asshole."

I am Litlebritdifrnt and I approved this message.

Posted by Litlebritdifrnt at 2008-04-03 08:55

Another pair of military morons whose view of protecting freedom is to oppress it.

The pre WW2 military buildup of Germany and Japan was far greater than the military buildup of the US since WW2. That is part of human history too, you know.

Is that why they lost?

"My name is George Nickerson, I am telling you this, because what you just said is about the dumbest fucking thing I ever heard of in my life. That iraqi suicide bomber doesn't give a shit who he kills with his bomb, he is not trying to save anybody's life

That Navy Seal wasn't there to pass out flowers. He was there to destroy the lives of whoever killed him first.

"The pre WW2 military buildup of Germany and Japan was far greater than the military buildup of the US since WW2. That is part of human history too, you know."

Is that why they lost?

Posted by Ray

FF

Is that why they lost?

no. The Germans spread themselves too thin. The Japanese got bombed. Are you really that ignorant on history?

Besides, what does WW2 have to do with post-reagan military. Every post of yours deflects from that since you can't admit you were wrong.

"The pre WW2 military buildup of Germany and Japan was far greater than the military buildup of the US since Reagan"

Nonsense. The US spends more on the military each year than most, if not all of the rest of the world combined. Every year of the Reagan administration it built more destructive capacity than Germany ever dreamed of.

Key word in Ray's original statement is "buildup". No one ever disputed total military expenditure.

Key word in Ray's original statement is "buildup". No one ever disputed total military expenditure.

Posted by goatman

*YAWN* lookd likr Ray won again:>)

lookd likr Ray won again:>)

If being wrong is "winning", then yes he did because Since Reagan, we've witnessed the greatest military buildup in human history. is definitely a false statement.

*YAWN* lookd likr Ray won again

Was that a "yawn" or a gag reflex?

Fucking dumbass.

Since Reagan, we've witnessed the greatest military buildup in human history. is definitely a false statement.

Posted by goatman


u lost me...since when have the real numbers been shown? Area 51 ops & ect are off budget, so how the heck can you prove these sort of $ points?

& thanks for showing off your latent love for me , Pinche Mao:>)

since when have the real numbers been shown? Area 51 ops & ect are off budget, so how the heck can you prove these sort of $ points?

So you are saying ray's statement is correct because (allegedly) the real budget can't be proven? What kind of logic is that?

Well, Ray still makes more sense to me than you have in this discussion but good logic quip:>)

Everlong:

Now, you say that we got what we had coming on 9/11



Yes, you were responsible for 9-11 happening to yourself because of your involvement with these Islamic fanatics. You financed them for years to make trouble for normal people like myself. Only you didn't understand they are like snakes and will one day bite the hand that fed them.

Most countries have their fingers where they shouldn't be. You just got unlucky.

I am not denying what I said... and what I said has been said by other Americans. What are you getting so hot and bothered about?


your real feelings about the US. Hey, it's okay if you have disdain for this country,


Disdain plus apathy. That would be more accurate.



we don't cut people's heads off for feeling that way,


But you do attack and kill innocent people for their oil? LOL



And I would love to see an example of where America 'asked' for sympathy.


Your boo-hoo about not caring for 9-11 is exactly that. Asking for my sympathy.

But you do attack and kill innocent people for their oil? LOL

I hear this repeated so many times that those of softer minds are probably actually believing it. Who did we attack and take their oil? I've not seen mention of it on any of the major news sources or on the internet.

You did this same thing with the 'Ameerikan' talk. You tried to claim that it was how you talked



THAT still bugs you? Even after I stopped when you people pointed it out???

You really are immature, you lot.

And yes, that really is how we pronounce the name.

I hear this repeated so many times that those of softer minds are probably actually believing it. Who did we attack and take their oil? I've not seen mention of it on any of the major news sources or on the internet.

Posted by goatman


about $30 trillion in oil in Iraq is in a holding pattern since we sit there, so the oil barons control the price of the Petrol Dollar oil...something that Saddam foolishly sold for euros before his demise...

about $30 trillion in oil in Iraq is in a holding pattern since we sit there, so the oil barons control the price of the Petrol Dollar oil...something that Saddam foolishly sold for euros before his demise...

I'll ask again:

Who did we attack and take their oil?

Who did we attack and take their oil?


Iraq, of course. Like taking candy from a baby. Yes, you haven't succeeded... took the oil.. as well as you might have liked, but it isn't for lack of trying.

See... the fact that oil has hiked to over $100 a barrel is only because of US-Iraq and threatening Iran.

It is not necessary to phyisically take to oil. One can benefit maybe more in oil futures trading if you suddenly make the price jump up or down.

Your Chimp Extraordinaire is a now a very rich Chimp.

Iraq, of course. Like taking candy from a baby. Yes, you haven't succeeded... took the oil.. as well as you might have liked, but it isn't for lack of trying.

Got a link to that? I am aware that we are buying between 25%-30% of their current production at fair market prices, but I don't think we are "taking" it.

To me, when I hear "taking" something, I figure that means not paying for it. When I go to the store and buy a leg of lamb I really don't consider that "taking". I consider that "buying".

Did you or did you not go to war in Iraq screaming "WMD"?

Iraq has or hasn't got oil?

2 plus 2 equals 5.

Iraq is no longer an independent nation. They and their Govt. are American puppets. Whatever resources they have are now effectively American resources. America has control.

Now if only the "insurgents" go away and leave you in peace... LOL

This is not necessarily a bad thing... but PLEASE don't try to act as if you are angels.

If you flatten Afghanistan and secure an oil-gas pipeline route to the Pakistani coastal city of Gawadar... hell, I would be ecstatic. Steal THEIR oil and gas routes BY ALL MEANS! LOL

Did you or did you not go to war in Iraq screaming "WMD"?

I didn't. Bush's administration did.

Iraq has or hasn't got oil?

Yes, they also have pistachios, camels, and women with mustaches a 17 year old boy would be proud of. Does that mean we went over there for those, too?

2 plus 2 equals 5.

IOW, your logic doesn't add up.

If you flatten Afghanistan and secure an oil-gas pipeline route to the Pakistani coastal city of Gawadar... hell, I would be ecstatic. Steal THEIR oil and gas routes BY ALL MEANS! LOL

You're not a PAK at all.

Your a dumb-ass white boy with a bunch of left-wing cliches.

And a liar.

Lay off the ITN and FSTV.

Goatee, "2+2=5" is a common expression which means "got away with something extra while showing the finger".

You're not a PAK at all.


Here we go again.....



Your a .... white boy



You hate white-boys? Are you Afreekan-American?

Kid. My family has been here in the Indian Subcontinent since the last 1000 years. We stopped taking a shit in the woods before George Washinton cut down that apple tree and your country was born.

is a common expression which means "got away with something extra while showing the finger".

Maybe to you. To Americans it means something doesn't add up. That is more applicable to your post anyway.

I didn't. Bush's administration did.


Oh and that absolves you of all responsibility? How convenient...

It is very hard for outsiders to see where your Bushy admin ends and where you start.

"The US" attacked Iraq under false pretenses and has up to now killed/raped/tortured... how many innocent people?... 200,000? 500,000?

THAT is all we need to know.

And now it is Iran's turn, yeah? oil oil oil.... Has your Govt. set the date for attacking Iran yet? They seem very eager.

Oh and that absolves you of all responsibility?

I'm responsible? Call the Hague.

Has your Govt. set the date for attacking Iran yet?

You say I'm responsible for the invasion of Iraq. You ask me dates for attacking Iran.

Exactly what kind of a position do you think I hold in this administration tosser? Or does an ET on an offshore oil rig have more power than I am aware of?

Now you see why I don't care for 9-11 all that much?

Because YOUR president and Govt. don't care. If they had cared about 9-11, they would NOT have gone into Iraq but finished the job in Afghanistan and caught O'Binbin.

Your Govt. doesn't give a shit and you expect me... an outsider... to give a shit???

Thats crazy, dudes.

Your Govt. doesn't give a shit and you expect me... an outsider... to give a shit???

No

Exactly what kind of a position do you think I hold in this administration tosser?


I was talking rhetorically....

So you work on an oil rig? Screw the political talk... is it a comfortable place to live? Do you guys get kitchen meals or microwaved tv dinners? Do you enjoy it? Isn't rusting a problem? You get TV? Newspapers?

Now you see why I don't care for 9-11 all that much?

Lots of paks gravitate towards the 7-11s in this country though.

So you work on an oil rig? Screw the political talk... is it a comfortable place to live?

Fairly comfortable. There are two bed rooms each with a bathroom. We share a room with one other person -- generally the one we relieve, so we have the room to ourselves when off tour. Each room has a TV. We have satellite and lots of channels.

Common area has a large cinema style screen, usually used for sporting events. Pool table, weight room, smoking area.

Do you guys get kitchen meals or microwaved tv dinners?

The food is great. Prime rib, king crab legs, lobster every week. Each meal usually has one fish, one poultry, and one red meat dish. Fresh fruits and veggies and nice salad bar. Ice cream, fresh baked goods (my weakness and downfall) always available between meal times.

Do you enjoy it?

I love it. I work two weeks then get two weeks off except in south America it is 3/3. Overseas it is 4/4. Pay and benefits are great.

Isn't rusting a problem?

Not one I have to deal with except the occaisional weather barrier breakdown in a piece of electronic equipment I have to fix.

You get TV? Newspapers?

Satellite TV, a 2 DVD "jukeboxes" with about 600 disks all together that play on two of the CCTV channels. Also for those who really love the sights of the rig, every camera on the rig has a dedicated channel on the CCTV system so you can watch that in your room if you want. I do sometimes watch the ROV when it is in the water looking at the well head. Neat things will sometimes swim by in front of the camera

Extremely Heroic, I doubt that I could be so brave. But it is such a horrible waste at the same time.

Why again were four SEALS in harm's way in Ramadi?

Every Iraq vet that is back has told me their main mission there was "to not get blown up."

Our most valuable asset as a nation is a loaded gun. (i.e. a strong and ready military) "The gun" isn't so valuable when there are no more bullets in the chamber.

On that note...Fuck Bush, Powell, and the cowards who are squandering our best and bravest over fictional bullshit!

Why again were four SEALS in harm's way in Ramadi?

The SEALs perform many different types of missions in Iraq. Did you know they serve as close protection for high ranking Iraqi government officials?

Goat,

Sounds like a sweet deal. What are your working hours?

I almost took a gig that was 6/6, but opted to stay in A-Stan. Still kicking around the idea.


Do you have the option to stay on the rig and get paid more?

I get what you are saying Walt...but my point is that five years later, most troops are still there taking up space for the most part. Whether we deposed Saddam or didn't, SEALS shouldn't be doing anything there five years after the fact, period.


I don't know whether or not we should have intervened in Iraq eventually. For me, the case was never made intelligently. But, I do know that HOW and WHY we went in there has led to many years of relatively purposeless deployments and a misused and burnt-out military. I've thought that since the axis of evil speech, nothing has happened since to provide a good reason to see it differently.

At the very least, the planning was conducted on a fifth-grade level, and the USA is tenfold worse off from it.

We work 12 hours/day. The first week we get here we work nights 6:00 PM to 6:00 AM. The second week we work days. The transition is called short change. In fact I have to short change tomorrow. I'll go to bed at 6:00 AM as usual. The helicopter will get here about 8:00. I'll get up at noon, work until 6:00 PM then be on days for the last week of my hitch.

This is the mainteneance crew. The deck and drill crew are a little different. They work 12:00 to 12:00 and short change a little differently since their helicopter flights are around 2:00 PM.

If we want to stay on the rig an extra week we usually can. However, they will not allow more than 3 weeks at a time -- unless overseas, of course where we work 4 and off 4.

The good thing about the pay is that since we work 84 hours/wk, we get paid 40 hours regular and 44 over time, 1.5x regular pay. Of course we do not get paid the two weeks we are off, so it sort of averages out that we get one week extra pay for every four we work.

My favorite part of the job is the time off. 13 two week vacations a year. If we ever want more time off, it is easy to find someone to swap a week with you.

Goat,

That sounds cool. Maybe I should send you my resume:) The only part that doesn't sound good is being cooped up on the thing all the time. I also can imagine in rough seas it would be not too pleasant either. I took a Trans-Atlantic cruise and we hit part of a hurricane. Even on a giant cruise ship, the dished were sliding all over the tables and they had to drain the pools. For 4 days I thought I was the only one on the ship. Once the weather broke, the blue hairs swarmed out of their rooms.

Have you had any close calls on that thing? Have you had to drop from the top in one of those emergency boat things?

most troops are still there taking up space for the most part

It takes a lot of support personnel just to sustain the combat arms folks. So yes, there are a lot of people there who are not out in hummers or fighting door to door. It doesn't make them less important and they certainly aren't just taking up space.

Maybe I should send you my resume:)

if you want emplyoment info, drop me an email. It's on my user page.

Well my hat is off to you Goat. Takes balls to get on a helicopter and fly out to the middle of the ocean and get on a floating bomb.

Not sure how keen I would be on dropping down in that boat either, but it might actually be fun.

Your job is right up there with those crab catchers.

Now do us all a favor please, when you get back out there, turn up the volume for crying out loud! We need more oil! From now on I am blaming you when price goes up. Work faster and quit taking so damn many vacations ya lazy bastard!

Your job is right up there with those crab catchers.

It's not that bad. We have incredibly contrived safety rules. They actually budget 1/6 of our day towards safety. That might be the weekly safety meeting, filling out electrical isolation forms, etc.

Here is an extreme example I went through once: I had to remove an electrical jbox and its mounting screws. It was on the rig (drill) floor which is technically classified as an explosive space because gas may seep up from the well. I cut two screws off and wanted to grind them smooth with the metal they were welded to. I had to get a permit to work since the grinder makes sparks. I had to get the grinder inspected since it was electrical. (usually we use pneumatic tools, but there was not an air-line near) These forms have to be signed by the company man and OIM (top dog offshore).

Anyway, LSS, after all the paperwork and inspections I got started 1 1/2 hours later. I had the bolts ground down in 5 minutes.

True story.

The safety rules on the rig are unbelievable. But the good thing is that we are never, ever rushed to do or finish a job. A person is much more likely to be told to slow down than to hurry up. They take safety very seriously.

Takes balls to get on a helicopter

I admit, I hate the helicopter ride every two weeks. Believe it or not, it is harder to get on the helicopter than a commercial plane. We have to go through all the same screening as the commercial plane, but we have to watch a 10 minute safety video every time. We have to wear earplugs and inflatable life jackets on the bird. We have to show our ID, water survival safety card, and permit to work offshore cards every time.

For the water survival safety card, we have to renew it every two years. I did mine last month. It is a two day school. One day of it is spent in a pool in a helicopter simulator. The plunge it int the water, turn it upside down, and we have to push out the window and escape from it. 7 times, in fact.

Everyone bitches about it, but to be honest, I'd rather not have to do it the first time during a real crash. It is not as easy as it sounds. One becomes disoriented when under water upside down and it is easy to forget which side of you the window is on. I'll gladly go to the course every two years and practice.

The safety rules on the rig are unbelievable. But the good thing is that we are never, ever rushed to do or finish a job. A person is much more likely to be told to slow down than to hurry up. They take safety very seriously.

Great story.

Now speed your asses up. Pass that along to OIM.

In fact tell them to go ahead and put 5x more rigs out there.

OK, Goat. We are well and truly far enough off topic now.

I have a vacation in the works. Trying to stay on this side of the globe. Done Thailand plenty, Malaysia. Not too keen on PI.

Am thinking China or India.

Thoughts? Reccomendations?

Goat,

As an Commercial pilot, I have absolutely no fear of flying. I love helicopters and even got to attend Air Assault. Love to parachute too.

But that dunk in the water thing? No fucking way.

Cheers to that!

Thoughts? Reccomendations?

I liked the PI. But blow jobs are probably more than $3 these days.

No recommendations. It's been a long time since I've been in that part of the world. My next big overseas vacation will be New Zealand. I've always wanted to go there.

My dad travels to China a lot. He says it sucks. Dirty, rude people, etc. But they may be getting better now that the olympics are drawing nigh.

Ever thought of Egypt? We were supposed to go there when I was in the Navy, but our port of call was cancelled because Kadaffi was making noises in the Gulf of Sidra and we had to make a presence. I still blame him to this day as the reason I never saw the pyramids.

We did have a few hours in Port Said while waiting to go through the Suez canal, but that wasn't quite the same.

Don't get me wrong on PI, I like it, just too similar to Thailand. Dad will disown me if I go to Vietnam. Same for Cambodia. I think I will go to India. Last time I planned a trip to Egypt, a resort hotel near where we would have been staying, got blown up. In Sharm El Sheikh. I am saving my Africa trip for 2010. Attending World Cup and will make 3 month trek by truck from Nigeria or Egypt all across Africa to SA for the matches.

I know you were joking about getting more rigs, etc., but actually we simply drill holes where the big oil companies tell us to. We are working for BP right now. They hire the geologists, do the surveys, etc. Then they hire my company and say, "we want to drill a 22,450 foot hole at these coordinates." we scoot over there and do it.

More rigs: 5 years ago there were three rigs being built worldwide. Today there are 85 under construction! A lot of them are the latest generation deep water (up to 12,000 feet water, 35,000 feet hole, TVD total vertical depth = 47,000 feet!) rigs. They can't man them fast enough. That's one reason your gas prices are so high. They have to pay for these new rigs and pay the people to go to them, which are hard to find. Supply and demand, you know.

More rigs: 5 years ago there were three rigs being built worldwide. Today there are 85 under construction! A lot of them are the latest generation deep water (up to 12,000 feet water, 35,000 feet hole, TVD total vertical depth = 47,000 feet!) rigs. They can't man them fast enough. That's one reason your gas prices are so high. They have to pay for these new rigs and pay the people to go to them, which are hard to find. Supply and demand, you know.

Interesting. Are all 85 of them American owned? Where are the rigs built? Why are they having trouble manning them, I looked online and the pay seems good?

Mombasa Kenya is nice.

I don't know what you go for, but if you like local culture (that's what I go for) Djibouti and Oman aren't that bad of places to visit. But then again, as I said, I like the local color and food. I'm kind of adventurous.

It's been many years since I was there, but I do recall having a great time at both those places. In Djibouti our crew got permission from the head honcho of the country (sheik or whatever) to take a motor whale boat around this point on the coast to an abandoned 14th century fort so that we could drink beer that our CO had stashed on board. I'll never forget that day. It was 110F. The water was so hot that we could not cool off by swimming in it. But yet we played football, drank, explored the ruins and had a great time

Interesting. Are all 85 of them American owned?

No. The Norwegians and Scots are big into drilling. But there are some asian and australian owned ones as well.

Where are the rigs built?

Singapore, Australia, Mobile, Brownsville, and other places

Why are they having trouble manning them, I looked online and the pay seems good?

Some people don't like the idea of being away from home two weeks at a time. but even the married guys on my rig love it. They see it as being home for two weeks. Also, some people are afraid of the water, believe it or not. Strangely, there are very few black people on the rigs because culturally they do not like the water. Of all four crews, we have about 170 people. Only 5 of them are black.

Yes, the pay is good. The competition for personnel is so great that in the last three years we have gotten 7 raises between 5% and 11%, above and beyond our usual promotion and time-in raises. People are jumping companies like crazy and they are trying to stem that. SeaDrill is the worst. They must have deep pockets. They are offering pay 20% what the other companies are paying and it is making it difficult for them all to compete

Great story Goat.

I can relay similar.

Yet another of the many reasons people join the military.

I would love to see a poll of all the places DR posters have been. I would bet there is probably only 1 other person who has been to Oman. I have been to Bahrain, Qatar, and UAE, but not Oman.

I wonder how many countries these latte-liberals have visited?

No. The Norwegians and Scots are big into drilling. But there are some asian and australian owned ones as well.

Who is getting the oil that is being drilled?

Singapore, Australia

Is it really that cost effective to have them built so far away?

People are jumping companies like crazy and they are trying to stem that. SeaDrill is the worst. They must have deep pockets. They are offering pay 20% what the other companies are paying and it is making it difficult for them all to compete

What is the most common position the companies are looking to fill?

I've been to Bahrain as well. On the middle east cruise we were on, it was the only place we could drink (except the one day Djibouti boat ride) because the British Embassy was walking distance from the port. We were there on the 4th of July and they threw us a big American style BBQ. It was a blast.

I wonder how many countries these latte-liberals have visited?

Probably most of the older ones "visited" Canada until Carter pardoned them. *grin*

Who is getting the oil that is being drilled?

Whoever is leasing the rig's services. As I said upthread, we are now drilling for BP and are 2 years into a 5 year contract with them. My son works for the same company I do, but his rig is drilling for Chevron.

Is it really that cost effective to have them built so far away?

I would imagine. probably shipyard facilites are getting harder to come by. But let's say a rig is built in Australia. It is a 60 day tow to the GoM. That really isn't that long considering the lifespan of a rig -- maybe 30years.

Whoever is leasing the rig's services. As I said upthread, we are now drilling for BP and are 2 years into a 5 year contract with them. My son works for the same company I do, but his rig is drilling for Chevron.

My bad. I was trying to ask if the oil is going to the US or elsewhere.

What is the most common position the companies are looking to fill?

Not to sound flippant, but all. We have roustabouts who work on the crane crew, seaman who keep the rig running, Ballast Control Officers, Barge Engineer, Electricians, ETs (me), Mechanics, motormen, drillers, roughnecks, Materialsmen who run the warehouse, medic (not a doctor, they are usually EMTs), safety guy, radio operator.

The cooks and stewards are contracted third party. Also to work on rigs the company who hires us (BP in my case) contracts Schlumberger and Halliburton who have jobs like mud logging, well logging, and other well related functions, remembering that we -- my company -- only punches holes in the ground. We do not figure out where to drill, how deep to drill, the quality of the hole, the quality of the contents of the well, the type of mud to use, etc. We make holes. Period.

My bad. I was trying to ask if the oil is going to the US or elsewhere.

I'm not sure. I guess it is up to the company that owns the well. I'm not real keen on that part of the business.

Goat,

Very informative.

Does the rig that you are on, pump oil, out of the ground?

I guess it is up to the company that owns the well. I'm not real keen on that part of the business.

Why not?

I don't mean to grill you Goat.

Does the rig that you are on, pump oil, out of the ground?

No we don't. Once we finish drilling the hole to the oil company's specifications, they figure out if it is worthy of production. There are many production rigs throught the gulf. There is also a mind boggling web of pipes on the seabed that connect wells to this central production rig. This production rig will either load oil onto a tanker, or more likely will have a pipeline to the shore.

My rig right now is in a well completion cycle. It is a well that BP has chosen to put into production so we are putting special equipment in the wellhead that will allow it to be hooked to a pipeline to a production rig. After that, we are gone to another location to drill another hole

I don't mean to grill you Goat.

I don't mind. It's keeping me awake until 6:00

guess it is up to the company that owns the well. I'm not real keen on that part of the business.

Why not?

I don't need to know it to do my job and it doesn't interest me.

There is also a mind boggling web of pipes on the seabed that connect wells to this central production rig.

Who controls these pipes and who controls the CPR?

What happens at 0600?

I get off of work at 6:00

The oil companies have a consortium that runs the production facilities.

We make holes

GOATMAN

St. Goatman the Holy *grin*

How you guys doin'? Thunderstorms in the area. Dog crawled on my head in bed about half an hour ago, and so I woke up rather abruptly LOL Both of them are panting like they just ran 10 miles. Got the little one on my lap and the golden retriever is trying to get on it too. Funny thing is the little one (who was a stray) wasn't storm sensitive until she learned it from the big guy.

Gonna have to break out some lunchmeat. More thunder on it's way.

In the meantime I'll sit back and learn more about holes LOL

Hope you're having a good one.

Goat,

I learned a lot.

Thanks for answering all my 10000 questions.

It is about 1423 here. I have just completed my download of Smallville and will begin to enjoy the rest of my day off.

I also have to go to the bazaar and get a haircut.

Thanks for the info.

AmU,

We are having a tiny storm here. It rained all day and it very gloomy. The outlines of the mountains are very blurry.

I went to the Supermarket this morning. It was pouring, I was in the vehicle with tinted windows and we were listening to Italian canal music. Very surreal.

We just had a squall move through here. lasted about 30 minutes.

No problem with the Q&A. As I said upthread, if you are interested in work, drop me an email.

No problem with the Q&A. As I said upthread, if you are interested in work, drop me an email.

I may take you up on that but I am asking more for a buddy.

I wont ask you anymore questions, sure you want to hit the hay by now.

It was good to talk with you. I learned a lot.

Last night at the bar, I had a similar conversation with a guy from SA about Zim.

Both very enlightening.

Cheers bro! (If you have booze on that rig, prolly not)

Sounds like it's raining all over the world

Walt I don't mean to grill you Goat.



CIA in action.... tax dollars have not gone to waste.

He is very good at it too. LOL

Goatee, you have a great job, methinks. Thanks for the info. I've visited some large ships when I was a kid and they lived pretty good on them. So I guessed that an offshore oil rig might have more space and more fun.



AmericanUnity Sounds like it's raining all over the world


Not here it ain't.

Hey TOSSER

It was raining where all three of us were an hour ago = separate parts of the world.

You want some rain? Man, I'd love to give you some of mine LOL Usually not this rainy, but 5 days in a row is enough. It just turned spring here and I haven't been able to get the grass cut. It must have grown 6 inches this week, but too wet to do anything with.

Anything new over there? Are you happy with the turnout of the election you just had?

AU :-)

Oh I love the rain. I want it to rain always and always. Best weather when it is raining.

About the elections... no, I'm not really happy. The new PM is an idiot. He likes opening his mouth before really understanding what he is saying. He has already made a fool of himself twice. He looks like he is on drugs.

But I suppose it could've been worse. All the islamic types lost and went home. So that's good.

Another good thing is that most of the new parliament is full of back-stabbers and rivals. They will leave us alone and be busy with bringing each other down. Again that is good.

Tosser,

Quit it with the CIA nonsense. Pretty soon BB will have a youtube video of me on the moon or something.

These guys have only recently stopped referring to me as a mercenary and I don't need you heaping some CIA conspiracy on top of that. Not only that, but I make regular calls to the US. Ever heard of the Patriot Act? I don't need some bot sniffing this thread and next thing I know every call is monitored.

The reason I am so disturbed by you is your apparent lack of concern for people. No matter the nationality.

I work with Afghanis who cheer whenever Pakis are blown to bits. I have no particular affinity for Pakistan, but I do not dislike seeing your people murdered any less than when Americans or people of any other nationality murdered. You seem to stop caring at the borders, and that is troubling.

So even if I really don't give that much of a crap about what happens in Pakistan, if Bin Laden is killing you people, I want him dead.

Cheers,
Walt

Ever heard of the Patriot Act?


Not in detail, no.



I don't need some bot sniffing this thread and next thing I know every call is monitored.


Are you serious???

Ok... if you say it like that. You're probably yanking my chain, but ok.



You seem to stop caring at the borders, and that is troubling.


Not for me, it isn't.

There are many in the islamic world who would love to recruit Pakistan on some level for their own damn causes... whatever that cause might be.

We have only one cause and one enemy. Kashmir and India. The rest isn't our problem.

The US is very strong and can take care of things without further help. The fact that we are refining and supplying you with all your fuel in Afghanistan, ought to be enough... nobody was able to do that for you except us. We really shouldn't be doing anything else for you.

The new Govt. is talking along the same lines. That we dial down our involvement with the US. So whatever I am saying might just become national policy.

You know how hard Bushi tried to get India and Pakistan to go to Iraq, yeah? Thank God we didn't. They even beheaded a few of our workers there... we still didn't jump in. It would be stupid.

Now you understand? It works for us.

I mean you do know (you can look it up) we almost got nuked in the 60s by Russia, thanks to you guys?

Pakistan had a nuclear umbrella (British... 48 "red beard" nukes in Singapore) back then so nothing happened. But this was no way to live.

I work with Afghanis who cheer whenever Pakis are blown to bits.



Thats them all right...

Next time you meet them tell them I said Hi and then say something about their mothers. Tell them I said that too. LOL

Ray, you're just an ass.

Posted by kwrx25 at 2008-04-03 12:59

Mirrors don't lie.

Posted by Ray


Would that be akin to an "I'm rubber and you're glue"

at least I know the level your functioning on ....um malfunctioning on now, thanks for clarifying.

Posted by Ray at 2008-04-02 10:10 PM

You're not getting it either, Commensense. Two ways by which countries destroy themselves: welfare and warfare. This country is well past the point of no return. You guys think this is Boy Scouts.

Your Govt. doesn't give a shit and you expect me... an outsider... to give a shit???-Tosser

I would only expect you to be outraged by the growing number of Muslims who are hijacking your religion. Here in America, most of us despise extremes no matter what side they come from. But, it seems you take a certain amount of glee in seeing America try to deal with this problem almost on its own.

Posted by goatman at 2008-04-04 04:56 AM

More rigs: ... A lot of them are the latest generation deep water (up to 12,000 feet water, 35,000 feet hole, TVD total vertical depth = 47,000 feet!) rigs.

Posted by everlong at 2008-04-04 12:57 PM

I would only expect you to be outraged by the growing number of Muslims who are hijacking your religion.

Now, you say that we got what we had coming on 9/11



"Yes, you were responsible for 9-11 happening to yourself because of your involvement with these Islamic fanatics. You financed them for years to make trouble for normal people like myself. Only you didn't understand they are like snakes and will one day bite the hand that fed them."-Tosser

This is about as stupid an assertion there is. We financed them to make trouble for people like you? We finaced them in places like Afghanistan to fend off the Russians,and we have always funded groups that are fighting people who don't have our interests at heart. You essentially placed yourself as a person who fights against America.

"Most countries have their fingers where they shouldn't be. You just got unlucky."-Tosser

We were unlucky? But, you just said we had it coming to is.

"I am not denying what I said... and what I said has been said by other Americans. What are you getting so hot and bothered about?"-Tosser

No doubt it's been said by other Amercians and they fall in far left extremist crowds who hate this country to begin with. Horrible attempt at a point.


your real feelings about the US. Hey, it's okay if you have disdain for this country,


"Disdain plus apathy. That would be more accurate."-Tosser

Ahhh, at least you admit it. Now you can quit trying to hide your hatred for us and backtracking to try and make yourself look better.



And I would love to see an example of where America 'asked' for sympathy.


"Your boo-hoo about not caring for 9-11 is exactly that. Asking for my sympathy."-Tosser

Bullshit. It is simply pointing out the truth which you have tried to hide. Which is all of the Middle East rejoiced on 9/11. Like I said, just like your cheap shots by saying Ameerikan. You tried to make everyone believe that it was a harmless accent thing. You're the one who's playing both sides of the fence. "You deserved it, but I like you and I see why you're mad."

Dude, you're just another jealous America hater. One more to add to the crowd. Don't forget that along with all of those BAD things we do, there are 100 times more good things that we do. Amercia is the most charitable, compassionate, caring, and unselfish nation on the planet. Your Pakeestan, could take a few lessons from us.


And we weren't attacked because of our involvement against extremists. We were attacked for simply being in the Middle East. The difference between you and us, at least one of them, is that we welcome people from the Middle East and all over the world, you kill them for being in your contries.

THAT still bugs you? Even after I stopped when you people pointed it out???

You really are immature, you lot.

And yes, that really is how we pronounce the name.
Tosser

No it doesn't still bug me and it didn't really bug me when you did it, I just saw it as a sign of disrespect. And if you had any intelligence and reason at all, you would see that I mentioned in the context of making a point. I mean, I know you're Pakistani but try to show some signs of intellect.

Another good thing is that most of the new parliament is full of back-stabbers and rivals.


Posted by Tosser


Hell, I thought that was how all of you were.

We Americans want to believe that "the religion is being hijacked," which would minimize the challenge that confonts us.

The actual fact might be that it is not being "hijacked," but that it is being rightfully interpreted and used by those adherents of Islam arrayed against us and attacking us, who are devoted to imposing Islamic rule over mankind according to their religious obligations as set for th in the Quaran and Hadith.

If this is true then we need to modify our approach to successfully address the reality of the threat posed by Islam.

Posted by Johnson


I was saying that giving the benefit of the doubt, Johnson. It is my belief that the majority of Islam believes that any 'non-believers' are blasphemers and should be killed or converted. Tosser is a perfect example.

Muslims who are hijacking your religion.


The problem isn't as bad as you are making it out to be.

As for me being "outraged" at Islamists... Well since you seem to be a bit slow, I will repeat this in bold so you can see it better:

Being outraged isn't enough. We defeated them in the elections we just had in Pak and they lost TOTALLY. We took care of the problem!

See, we did something that was easy, effective and will give lasting results.

Acting like drama queens (unlike you people) won't get you or us anywhere.


But, it seems you take a certain amount of glee in seeing America try to deal with this problem almost on its own.


America created this problem. O'Binbin used to work for the Americans before he went nuts. You must have done something to him to make him go crazy.

YOU clean up your own mess.

We do not like being part of one of your adventures and we want out. In a few days, the US will probably get this message by the new Govt. officially. That is why the people... we... voted for them... it was an anti-islamic AND anti-American vote. We want no part of either.

Take your billion dollars a month and go away.

Posted by DUMPLING1 at 2008-04-03 03:59 PM

Where are those WMDS?

Anyone?

"...People who have never served in the military have no way of understanding the comaraderie and love you develop for your fellow soldiers/shipmates, whatever...I'm proud to say I, as a veteran, understand that comaraderie and that rare bonding that a non-serviceman could never understand." Posted By Goatman

101 and Walt have a name for people like you:

FAGGOT

Your Pakeestan, could take a few lessons from us.



I don't think so Amreekan.

LOL. You wanted me to say it....



we welcome people from the Middle East and all over the world, you kill them for being in your contries.


Pakistan isn't part of the "Middle East". It's South Asia. Or the Indian Subcontinent.

When a guy can't even get THAT right, I think it safe to think he is an idiot.


"You deserved it, but I like you and I see why you're mad."


YES, you fool.

It isn't such a complex thought.


Which is all of the Middle East rejoiced


I wouldn't know since I am not in the Middle East.


and backtracking to try and make yourself look better.


I never backtrack. I do further clarify something you people always seem to misunderstand.


We financed them to make trouble for people like you?


Jamat-i-Islami. Big part of politics in Pakistan. They say they were American funded. America never denied it.


We finaced them


But never asked them to behave after the job as finished.

See the movie "Charlie Wilson's War".

We work 12 hours/day. The first week we get here we work nights 6:00 PM to 6:00 AM. The second week we work days. The transition is called short change. In fact I have to short change tomorrow. I'll go to bed at 6:00 AM as usual. The helicopter will get here about 8:00. I'll get up at noon, work until 6:00 PM then be on days for the last week of my hitch.

Posted by goatman at 2008-04-04 03:50 AM | Reply | Flag

I don't get it with the helicopter. If a new hitch on the rig has already started and a short change is just the day tour guys on that hitch switching to nights and the night tour guys switching to days then who comes in on the helicopter? More new guys? I thought guys helicopter in every couple weeks for a new hitch and that same group short shifts (changes tour hours ?) mid-hitch. Guess I had it wrong.

"The actual fact might be that it is not being "hijacked," but that it is being rightfully interpreted and used by those adherents of Islam arrayed against us and attacking us, who are devoted to imposing Islamic rule over mankind according to their religious obligations as set for th in the Quaran and Hadith.

If this is true then we need to modify our approach to successfully address the reality of the threat posed by Islam."

We have the best military in the world. We have one of the biggest intelligence services in the world. We have the best economy. We're filled with people who will fight to the death if their way of life is threatened. Yet all you have to offer is that we need to bomb the shit out of anyone who opposes us. People who still live in the 14th century. Who are going to use rowboats filled with nucs to come over here, evading our navy. Who are going convince our people to become muslims or threaten to shoot them all. Or just nuc them for the hell of it. Reality is not your strong point, that's obvious.

It is my belief that the majority of Islam believes that any 'non-believers' are blasphemers and should be killed or converted.



No, I would rather screw your sister and make her have muslim babies. Killing is no fun.

The horror, the horror.

try to deal with this problem almost on its own.
Posted by Tosser at 2008-04-04 01:38 PM

Being outraged isn't enough. We defeated them in the elections we just had in Pak and they lost TOTALLY. We took care of the problem!

See, we did something that was easy, effective and will give lasting results.

YOU clean up your own mess.

We do not like being part of one of your adventures and we want out.

"Who gives a tinker's dam, DUMP? As an imperialist power, we don't need to justify our actions to anyone. Why we even initiate such a charade is in conformity to a tradition that requires some sort of inane justification for a nation to pursue a policy in its interests. The question is how would our undertaking benefit us. One putative benefit was the WMDs. But that's just a distraction. Grow up DUMP, and deal with the reality of how nation-states function and what underlies their initiatives.

You seem to think that whether or not there were WMDs has some "

Being a psychopath obviously has great emotional appeal for you. You will pardon those of us who believe a civilized society is one which acknowledges that it is part of a larger world. Where that society understands that every action has a consequence. Especially ours, which is supposedly based on the "treat your neighbor as you would yourself" concept of Christianity.

Posted by fyi at 2008-04-04 02:01 PM

Yet all you have to offer is that we need to bomb the shit out of anyone who opposes us. People who still live in the 14th century. Who are going to use rowboats filled with nucs to come over here, evading our navy. Who are going convince our people to become muslims or threaten to shoot them all. Or just nuc them for the hell of it. Reality is not your strong point, that's obvious.

Amercia is the most charitable, compassionate, caring, and unselfish nation on the planet.



Asking for sympathy again... shut it already, will you?

Btw, you spelled America wrong... LOL



there are 100 times more good things that we do.


Like WHAT? Since 9-11? Lets have a list, shall we?

Johnson
Ray, is this one of the shibboleths used to identify people of your persuasion?

You do understand that despite its frequent repetition by "your group," it is not true that we are as a nation significantly engaged in "warfare." Possibly you don't, and have adopted the premise without thought or observation.

I don't join groups. I might be alone in my persuasion, because every person I know on this site is economically illiterate. Welfare and warfare are the primary means by which nations bankrupt themselves. The US has been living on borrowed money since the seventies and has accumulated debts too massive to pay off. Her credit is running out. The Soviets collapsed from trying to take Afghanistan and our head honchos in Washington are making the same mistake.

The United States is in basically a "peace mode" right now and how is it benefiting us.

With a military equal to the rest of the military in the world combined? With hundreds of bases spread throughout the world? With two festering wars? With $trillions wasted keeping Israel afloat? With threats to start a major war in the ME with an attack on Iran? Who the fuck are you kidding?

we welcome people from the Middle East and all over the world, you kill them for being in your contries.


Pakistan isn't part of the "Middle East". It's South Asia. Or the Indian Subcontinent.

When a guy can't even get THAT right, I think it safe to think he is an idiot.


I said the rest of the world as well. However, I will say that whe we run into people like you, Islamofascist sympatihzers, we tend to just lump you all into Middle East. It just makes it easier. Same mentality.

"You deserved it, but I like you and I see why you're mad."


YES, you fool.

It isn't such a complex thought.

I can't wait for a huge attack on your homeland. Just remember, you deserved it.


All you are doing, Tosser, is proving beyond a doubt that you are anti-American, which means you are a bigot. America, as a whole, wants good things for the whole world. Muslims like yourself just want death to 'non-belivers'. And trust me, my sister wouldn't fuck a towel head if her life depended on it. She's just your average American fun loving blonde girl, but she holds a special place inside of disgust for people like you.

I've come to the conclusion that you are not worth talking to. I don't care to converse with anyone who believes that ANY nation deserves acts of terrorism to be brought on it. It is obvious that you enjoy the work done by these extremists and that's pretty sick. But then again, your type of people don't have much respect for others and life so it's not surprising.

Does that mean that they'll stop their violent attacks? Does that mean that they don't control and operate out of large sections of Pakistan?



Their daddies in Govt. who gave them protection (some say) are gone.

Surely that would put a big dent in their plans. how could it not???


Or do you think that the Islamists will be unrelenting in pursuing their goals?


Oh, they will always keep trying. But nobody is Superman. They can't do everything they want to. They fail a thousand times before having one success.



We'll see just how the Islamists are chastened and curtail their activities, TOSSER. I suspect that your projections regarding the consequences of their election defeat will not materialize, and that there will be a continuing conflict.



Give it 6 months. We will know for sure by then.

If we are wrong, we will think of something else.



What are you folks planning to do to restrain "adventurers" in your Northwest Territories?


Before the elections, Mushi planned landmines all along the Afghan border. THAT will stop them cold.

But Canada.. of all people... bitched about it so bad, we stopped.

The plan is still there. I don't know if the new Govt. will go for it. In my opnion they should.

Meanwhile a new plan is coming along fine...

A number of checkpoints manned by Americans, Pakistanis and Afghans are coming up across the border (on the Afghan side). They should have plenty of effect.

Well, one mistake we have made is not seizing a sizeable portion of Iraqi oil and imposing our will on them regardless of their preferences. We've adopted a hands-off policy that enables opposition to us to continue instead of destroying centers of opposition, executing al-Sadr and his coterie, and pacifying the country the old-fasioned way.

Posted by Johnson at 2008-04-04 12:54

This guy has a serious Emperor Complex. I wonder if he types in the nude.

She's just your average American fun loving blonde girl, but she holds a special place inside of disgust for people like you.


To know me is to love me, you creep. Just introduce me to your damn sister and see.

She's a blonde, yeah? I love blondes... LOL


America, as a whole, wants good things for the whole world.


So where is the list of the good things America has done since 9-11, you pussy?

hahahahahahahaa

Posted by fyi at 2008-04-04 02:06 PM

Being a psychopath obviously has great emotional appeal for you. You will pardon those of us who believe a civilized society is one which acknowledges that it is part of a larger world. Where that society understands that every action has a consequence.

Especially ours, which is supposedly based on the "treat your neighbor as you would yourself" concept of Christianity.

I've come to the conclusion that you are not worth talking to.



And I've come to the conclusion your momma dropped you on your head long ago.

Goo-by.

"How would destroying their bases abroad, and restraining those of them in our countries in the West, increase their ability to harm us."

See, Johnson, the issue isn't that we should not destroy their bases. The issue is that we do not ignore where those bases are, what the collateral impact will be. If those bases are in Russia, are you saying we should bomb Russia?

Posted by Ray at 2008-04-04 02:22 PM

I don't join groups. I might be alone in my persuasion, because every person I know on this site is economically illiterate.

Welfare and warfare are the primary means by which nations bankrupt themselves.

The US has been living on borrowed money since the seventies and has accumulated debts too massive to pay off. Her credit is running out.

The Soviets collapsed from trying to take Afghanistan and our head honchos in Washington are making the same mistake.

With a military equal to the rest of the military in the world combined? With hundreds of bases spread throughout the world? With two festering wars?

With $trillions wasted keeping Israel afloat? With threats to start a major war in the ME with an attack on Iran? Who the fuck are you kidding?

Johnson,

"If you're suicidal, then destroy yourself."

Interesting, because I believe you have a death wish and you're trying to take our country down with you.

"An out-group does not limit its activities to comply with your in-group constraints."

So, in saying we shouldn't comply with the world's constraints, you indicate you want us to be an out-group.

"You advocate moderating your response to deadly threats regardless of whether or not it increases the prospect of their success and your demise."

False. I advocate understanding the threat and acting to it with the understanding of collateral impact. I am also arguing against the heedless and unthinking preemptive strategy you advocate.

"What you are advocating is that your particular society restrict its responses regardless of the consequences to its members."

False. I am advocating responses which take into consideration as many factors as possible. I am expressly opposed to any response which ignores impacts on my friends and and feedback from them.

"Your legacy will be a gravestone or marker of some sort for your group that would read, "His 'principles' resulted in his death." "

I believe my gravestone will say he understood his enemy and dealt with it in a manner which helped as many people as possible. It will not say, as will yours, he took the world done with him because he didn't consider the world to be of any consequence without him.

"Well, if the pragmatism necessary for survival requires me do reinterpret that adage, then I will. Treating my neighbor as myself has a codicil for me, and that is that I shall not allow my neighbor to destroy me and mine, which overrides nostrums."

I am not proposing allowing my neighbor to destroy me and mine. I am emphasizing that using a bunker-buster to kill an ant is overkill. And that destroying what we stand for, why we have friends, any attempts to make this a better world because you don't believe in nuance is a warped viewpoint.

Johnson,

Your posts to Ray have many valid points open to debate. The kind this forum needs more of. Then you go into the hyperbole and logical inconsistencies regarding Iran and ruin the illusion. Where did you get your worldview?

Johnson
You're departing even further from reality, Ray. Trillions? that's beyond hyperbole. It's gross misrepresentation. Why?

I have an affinity for facts.

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240

"Everyone I know of on this site is economically illiterate."

Ray, sounds like you need to head over to the 81% re wrong track thread and chat with Kevin.

FYI
That's what's so interesting about economic illiteracy. They don't see it coming until it's too late. It's probably too much of a bother to see the David Walker video. I've come to understand why so many Jews didn't see the dangers of Hitler's rise until it was too late.

This guy has a serious Emperor Complex. I wonder if he types in the nude.

You got me curious about Kevin. He attacks so much, it was hard to tell what he knows about economics. The best I can tell, he's a partisan Republican. Here's one statement. "Infrastructure investment being the most notable. Only Huckabee made this the centerpiece of his economic plan and you dems skewered him at every turn because of his social stances"

The Japanese government went into some serious debt trying boost the economy out of a recession with large infrastructure projects. It didn't work. And they still have the debt.

I'm telling you. Our economy has been giving the appearance of prosperity by borrowing for the past 35 years. The dollar is getting dangerously close to worthless. This is not a partisan thing. This is basic economics. No currency can lose value forever.

I hate to throw cold water on your prurient interest, Ray, but I type fully clothed.

That's what the emperor thought. The story carries a lesson with it.

"The best I can tell, he's a partisan Republican. Here's one statement. "Infrastructure investment being the most notable. Only Huckabee made this the centerpiece of his economic plan and you dems skewered him at every turn because of his social stances""

Thanks for letting us all know in clear terms that you suck at comprehension, Ray.

Try reading to understand. And the fact that you must guess at my partisan leanings before engaging in any debate at all says all I need to know about your motives. Straw man attacks are for bitches.

I'm classically conservative, libertarian, and a bit liberal depending on the issue and the context. In other words, I don't define myself by some idiotic yardstick from a two party system. Nice try though, hack.

Like I said before, Johnson. Everyone I know of on this site is economically illiterate.

Assuming you know yourself better than anyone, ray, that is quite an admission of ignorance considering the manner you speak of economics and finances.

"I'm classically conservative, libertarian, and a bit liberal "

Kevin is a phony libertarian.

Sincerely,
Ray

Ron Paul is the true libertarian.

Sincerely,
RideOn

Ron Paul is not a libertarian.

Sincerely,
Joe

Kevin
I haven't noticed you until FYI brought your name up. There was so much attacking, I couldn't tell where you were coming from, only what you were against. So the question remains. Did I read you right about Huckabee's plan?

Goat
Watch gold and silver in the years to come. I started accumulating four years ago. I put my money where my mouth is.
Frankly, I wish others would listen, instead of thinking I am putting them down. My interest in this topic began forty years ago. I didn't just come into it.

Someone needs a friend to talk to.

I think there is a little mouse running around on this thread.

Ray,

"Did I read you right about Huckabee's plan?"

Damn straight. Did you not watch the debates? He sounded more like FDR than both dems put together on the economy. How sad is that? He said he's take the money from this BS stimulus package and build new lanes on interstate highways...thus putting people to work making a salary which then gets put efficiently back into the local economy. He was laughed out of the room, and the media continued to focus only on his social stances. Do you deny any of this? If not, then why the need to label me to respond? Who cares at this point?

And, Ray, in case it wasn't painfully clear, I attack petty partisanship because it IS stupid and counterproductive. Do you deny this?

Ray doesn't know shit about libertarianism.

Sincerely,
Ron Paul

Kevin

I don't watch debates. I can't take more than three minutes of a politician's gibberish. There is nothing new they can tell me. I know they are fuck-ups. I don't vote, because there are no rational choices. Now you know where I stand on partisanship.

You failed the economic literacy test. Politicians can't spend but what they take from the private economy. Roosevelt gave us the worst depression in the history of this country because he fought to prevent the market from correcting itself. You cannot spend your way out of a recession. You cannot spend your way into prosperity. The market did eventually correct itself, but it took almost ten years.

Roosevelt got away with the scam because government finances were healthy then. This time, the Feds are bankrupt. This economy has no place to go but down for the foreseeable future. If Bushes massive deficits can't stop it, no amount of additional spending can. This country is bankrupt.

"You failed the economic literacy test. Politicians can't spend but what they take from the private economy. Roosevelt gave us the worst depression in the history of this country because he fought to prevent the market from correcting itself. You cannot spend your way out of a recession. You cannot spend your way into prosperity. The market did eventually correct itself, but it took almost ten years."

So according to Ray the assumer, I advocated a massive government intervention into the economy. Please show me my quote, Ray, because that's straight BS. Nor did I say what "worked" or didn't "work". If you had bothered to ask instead of assume, it would be clear. But you'd rather invent a target to attack than have some balls and attack something actually written, eh?

I love the posters who try to play "gotcha" when they can't even read a simple statement for the point it actually made.

Kevin
You said you subscribed to Huckabee's plan and saw him as a modern FDR. So I explained what's wrong with the plan. What's the beef?

I'm just trying to get our communication straight.

Sorry Kevin. My mistake. I'm so used to FDR being praised I read into it the wrong way.

So can we agree that more spending and regulation will only make things worse?

"You said you subscribed to Huckabee's plan and saw him as a modern FDR"

Thats just what YOU read. Try again. This time read to comprehend.

Repost where I said I "subscribe" to anything. You can't because it doesn't exist.

And I said he SOUNDED more like FDR ON THE ECONOMY than the two dems. Nothing else. Miss that in your frantic attempt to attack a straw-man?

Reading is fundamental. And so far you failed the reading test miserably.

"Sorry Kevin. My mistake. I'm so used to FDR being praised I read into it the wrong way.

So can we agree that more spending and regulation will only make things worse?"

FINALLY. Yes, agreed. Unless that spending is targeted and necessary to prevent a larger problem. Building infrastructure beats a $600 tax "prebate" any day of the week. And bailouts are indeed stupid. The market needs regulation, but only that which is narrowly tailored to produce accountability and transparency. No one invests in mystery markets. Over-regulation is stupid. No regulation is stupid. Bad regulation is the worst.

Anything else you want to know so you can attack me more pointedly next time you misunderstand something?

I said I make a mistake. Now let's get back to economics. I wouldn't mind an ally or two on this site.

Ray, you had posted a seemingly unrelated statement among other claims regarding American expenditures, asserting they had weakened the economy.

Specifically it was: "Posted by Ray at 2008-04-04 02:22 PM."

With $trillions wasted keeping Israel afloat?

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Although I try to refrain from being a didact, I think that it is important in terms of your comprehension to note that this money was paid over a period of some 59 years, and it is a deception employed by chartists and mappers to confuse the unsophisticated by presenting data as if it represented a limited period so as to create a distorted picture.

For your edification in evaluating the amount of assistance, some in the form of loans, made to Israel over the years, we would need to annualize the material as we present data in that more customary format. Now I have done the division manually since I did not have a computer at hand, and if I made an error, it may be corrected.

My calculations show that even under the voodoo accounting method which includes interest that would have been earned on money as representing a "gift," then the annualized amount provided Israel was $2,284,617,064. Remember that that is billion with a "b," some two billion, and that a billion is one thousandth part of a trillion with a "t." Using the more appropriate way to measure the amount provided Israel, the amount per year is $1,438,217,410. Again Ray, remember that that is one billion with a "b," which is only one thousandth of a trillion with a "t." It takes 1,000 billion to make a trillion.

I hope that this clarifies your understanding of the numbers and that you recognize the difference between billions and trillions, Ray. What causes me pause is that you presented the data that you did in support of your exaggerated concept that trillions were provided to Israel, when the material you yourself presented obviously gainsays that statement.

Thank you for supplying the data. If you still remain confused, please so advise me, and I'll try another approach in an effort to clarify your understanding of the matter for you.

Take your billion dollars a month and go away.

Posted by Tosser


AHAHAHAAAA!!! Let's see if your newly elected parliament feels the same way, Tosser. You ARE foolish aren't you.

Sorry, Ray, I annualized the yearly amount based on a 59 year term and note that it should have been done on the basis of a 48 year period.

Mea culpa.

but the same principle applies. There are no trillions involved.

OK Ray. Fair enough. No need to drag it out. I am very much a fan of Ron Paul's basic approach to economic policy. I do not agree with everything he says, but fundamentally, it is closer to my thinking than most in overly simplified terms. I can get behind infrastructure investment in some situations because, Katrina is a good example, sometimes a short term job is all people need to get over the hump...and good infrastructure leads to more and better development...generally speaking. But it is not something that should be thrown out as an absolute answer to all economic woes. The new deal, what was upheld of it, helped a little in some places. But you are right that the market corrects itself faster and more efficiently than government ever could...IF it is accountable and transparent. Preventing it from doing so is one of the worst things a government could do.

"and good infrastructure leads to more and better development...generally speaking"

Good infrastrcture allows the wealthy to get richer much easier. Trade and commerce become much easier, quicker and cheaper. Liquidity becomes less of an issue due to much shorter business transaction times and therefore capital gearing can be much higher along with related profits.

Targeted spending? Doesn't work. The market process is too chaotic. It always ends up being a political decision.

The market needs regulation, but only that which is narrowly tailored to produce accountability and transparency.

Ideally. But experience over the life of this country shows that once bureaucrats have an opening, they'll open it wider and wider. It took us over 200 years to get to the stage where government regulates at whim.

I've come to the conclusion that it would take a drastic change in culture to bring about such a strong distrust in government that it can be contained between the generations.

For now, my focus is protecting myself and my family from the economic disaster heading this way. Intervention is only making it worse and it is all they know.

Asking for sympathy again... shut it already, will you?

Btw, you spelled America wrong... LOL


If you think that's asking for sympathy......well, it plainly shows how truly ignorant you really are. It was a statement of fact. It also shows your envy. You don't like that we do so much good around the world. Please DO list all of the good will that Pakistan has spread around the globe. Pleae DO show how you actually give a shit about the world as a whole. All that you are exhibiting is an attitude of hate towards any other country, expecially a western christian nation.

And who gives a shit if I misspelled a word. People do it all day here and only a twit would make a point of it.

You take the good with the bad, Furio. That's called America. Equal opportunity for rich and poor. But you fail to mention that those faster transactions enable more employment which further stimulates the economy and baby-making. Rich people can't do the work themselves AND play 36 holes. Everyone wins. Unless you just hate wealth. Most people don't...especially those who want it.

Okay Johnson. $trillion was hyperbole. It's still a waste of taxpayers money. It was a bad decision to plant Jews in hostile territory. Israel's problems are bigger than ever.

"But experience over the life of this country shows that once bureaucrats have an opening, they'll open it wider and wider. It took us over 200 years to get to the stage where government regulates at whim."

Historically true. The interpretation of the commerce clause being the seminal example. Apparently, "interstate commerce" even covers regulation of a wild weed that grows in all 50 states naturally and never needs to cross state lines. Crazy.

"For now, my focus is protecting myself and my family from the economic disaster heading this way. Intervention is only making it worse and it is all they know."

Most people claim this same goal. But it is so much easier to point the finger at a president or congress to solve all your problems (especially when they offer to be responsible for it to win a few votes) than it is to actually think it through independently and take personal ownership of your situation. Human nature, I suppose. We need to get off the government teat if we are to ever grow out of our need for government milk.

" $trillion was hyperbole."

A thousand times over is just "hyperbole"?

Kevin,

I was pointing out the fallacies with Ron Paul style of libertarianism. You need to allow people who crave to get rich to in fact get rich or they will stir up other shit in their quest for self-gratification. You just need to make sure they don't accumulate everything or shit falls apart.

There is enough blame to spread everywhere: the Federalists, past generations, individuals, business, religion, politicians. History repeats so often because so few learn from it.

Government is an extremely wasteful way to manage resources. I suspect that over the generations, capitalism will continue to expand while governments lose power. The rise and decline of the Catholic Church is one model that comes to mind.

Meanwhile, load your boat with gold and silver. Prices are rising in a flood of money.

See the movie "Charlie Wilson's War".

Posted by Tosser


great movie...funi, too

See the movie "Charlie Wilson's War".

Posted by Tosser


great movie...funi, too