The dirty secret nobody tells you.

Nationalization of health care and nationalized "health plans" will not increase the cost of medical care except for prescription durgs. It will change the source of payment for that care.

The "quantity" of health care providers and facilities is limited, finite. There will be very little created in the way of additional resources. Instead what is being promoted in practice is a reallocation of resources and dispensing them based on other criteria than are now extant.

This is why there are waiting lines for specialized services in most countries providing national health care. There are insufficient resources to provide for medical care for all, so resources are "rationed."

There is also a dilution of care to extend putative "treatment."

Instead of being diagnosed by an M.D., who received three years post-doctoral training as an internal medicine resident, you will have access to a "nurse-practitioner." Less screening and so less intelligent practitioners, and less training. Good luck. Instead of stents being inserted by a cardiologist, who had an additional three years training as a cardiologist after completing an internal medicine residency, and one year's additional training for invasive techniques, you get a "lesser qualified" with "qualified" in this context being an oxymoron, practitioner.

And so it goes. National health care is not a panacea.

And aside from other dilutions of service, the system is more susceptible to curtailment of service due to budgetary constraints. Nineteen states, including California, and I think New York, liberal bastions, are reducing available care due to an insufficiency of tax revenues. Medical care availability is very susceptible to the vagaries of "the political process."

The government also sets eligibility rules based on husbanding of resources through more provident use and allocation, So rather than a commitment to individuals, if you suffer from an orphan disease, or if you are beyond a certain age, or if it might be a more provident use of resources to provide inoculations at an equivalent cost than provide an expensive procedure, then forget the expensive surgery. Bye bye heart patients, kidney patients, whatever.

Even today, the insurance companies too are contemplating reducing the level of care available as some are beginning to cut benefits for people who do not go to, for example, less expensive nurse-practitioners, which is not the equivalent to receiving a diagnosis from a trained internist.

The national health care program is an overall flim flam game, and the resources available for health care will not increase. The cost, however, will largely come from the taxpayers instead of individuals. Rest easy. There will be a negligible if any, overall provision of additional care as the result of a single payer government system.

You can have health care, but as soon as you get sick you'll get cancelled. That's part of the "never-pay" coverage.

That's not been my experience. But then, I joined a group so that the insurance company toted up the cost for that group without cancellations.

I'm not aware of individual cancellations. I suspect that they occur, but I don't know the circumstances or insurers involved, and the observation may have an element of "urban myth" to it.

"Instead of being diagnosed by an M.D., who received three years post-doctoral training as an internal medicine resident, you will have access to a "nurse-practitioner."

I am already seen by a nurse practitioner under my present health care plan. BTW, he does a great job and I am very happy with him.

When those over 65 tell us that they would like to do away with Medicare because they feel they could get better treatment without it let me know, OK???

All of this opposition ot a system not even proposed as yet with warnings of the dire consequences....as if....many or most of those same consequences are already occuring under private health insurance plans where PROFIT not your health is "job number 1" and anyone that denies that is a liar.

Most health insurance companies deny claims for hospitalization expenses automatically forcing rebilling by companies that do nothing except rebill insurance companies for claims that are covered under their policies but which otherwise will not be paid. Most hospitals have contracts with rebilling companies to collect the large sums denied by insurance companies. My daughter works for such a company. they have over 100 employees and are by no means the largest of their kind. They earn a percentage of any claims they get paid. It must be a huge amount to make such a company viable and profitable.

McCain and Edwards would be inelible under McCain's lame assed excuse fer a health care policy?

Bwa hah hah hah hah hah hah hah!!!

You GO girl!

Elizabeth Edwards purely rawks!

Luff that Gal!

Her oeuvre is steeped in irony.

Spud is dig that big time!

Considering the shameless and shocking state of "greed before need" that is the American Health Care system Spud is totally suprised that more people don't react violently to the massive amounts of desperation and poverty that ensues after an HMO denies needed procedures.

Before any pipsqueaks pipe up with their observation that the Canadian Health Care system has long line ups let Spud just state that the main reason that there aren't long line ups for procedures in the US is because very few can afford them these days.

Be Well.

If we can afford to spend trillions on a senseless War of choice then we can afford to insure All Americans ...even John McCain.

"If we can afford to spend trillions on a senseless War of choice"

Unfortunately we can't afford the war of choice but without the war we might be able to afford health care. We may be forced to end the portion of our health care expense which flows to insurance companies though. They contribute nothing yet increase the cost.

The Canadian system isn't the only system. There are other systems that seem to work better. Even a two tier system where everyone is covered is the way to go, I'm not sure.

Part of the problem that gets overlooked is that Americans don't take care of themselves. Pre-emptive care is where it's at, help people not get sick as much. If you have unhealthy lifestyles, you have to pay more for healthcare. That's a good incentive to take care of yourself.

Mrs Edwards is living in comfort by the money her husband earned from suing doctors. I do hope the best for her and family.

......does Johnson work for the White House or the Health Industry.......

......caught full of shit again Johnson.......

The two best indicators of the effectiveness of national health are the measurements of LIFESPAN and CHILD MORTALITY RATES......

........ in Lifespan we rank 45 in the world......
..........every country ahead of us has public health care.........

..........in Child Mortality Rates...we rank 32nd.......( I know, our children only matter until they are born )....
......every country ahead of us has public health care.......

here are the stats from Wilkipedia.....the Child Mortality Rates are in reverse order......
Rank byUN memberstate Rank byentity Entity Overall life expectancy at birth Male life expectancy at birth Female life expectancy at birth
1 1 Andorra 83.52 80.62 86.23
2 Macau ( PRC) 82.27 79.44 85.25
2 3 Japan 82.02 78.67 85.56
3 4 San Marino 81.8 78.33 85.57
3 4 Singapore 81.8 79.21 84.59
6 Hong Kong ( PRC) 81.68 78.99 84.6
7 Gibraltar ( UK)[4] 80.9 78.5 83.3
5 8 Sweden 80.63 78.39 83
6 9 Switzerland 80.62 77.8 83.59
6 10 Australia 80.62 77.75 83.63
8 11 France (metropolitan) 80.59 77.35 84
12 Guernsey ( UK) 80.53 77.53 83.64
9 13 Iceland 80.43 78.33 82.62
10 14 Canada 80.34 76.98 83.86
15 Cayman Islands ( UK) 80.2 77.57 82.87
11 16 Italy 79.94 77.01 83.07
12 17 Monaco 79.82 75.99 83.85
13 18 Liechtenstein 79.81 76.24 83.4
14 19 Spain 79.78 76.46 83.32
14 19 Norway 79.78 76.46 83.32
14 19 Israel 79.78 76.46 83.32
22 Jersey ( UK) 79.51 77.02 82.2
23 Faroe Islands ( Denmark) 79.49 76.06 82.93
17 24 Greece 79.38 76.85 82.06
18 25 Austria 79.21 76.32 82.26
26 U.S. Virgin Islands ( US) 79.2 75.4 83.22
19 27 Malta 79.15 76.95 81.47
20 28 Netherlands 79.11 76.52 81.82
21 29 Luxembourg 79.03 75.76 82.52
30 Montserrat ( UK) 79 76.8 81.31
22 31 New Zealand 78.96 75.97 82.08
23 32 Germany 78.95 75.96 82.11
24 33 Belgium 78.92 75.75 82.24
34 Guam ( US) 78.76 75.69 82.01
34 Saint Pierre and Miquelon ( France) 78.76 76.41 81.23
25 36 United Kingdom 78.7 76.23 81.3
36 European Union 78.7 75.6 82
26 38 Finland 78.66 75.15 82.31
39 Isle of Man ( UK) 78.64 75.3 82.17
27 40 Jordan 78.55 76.04 81.22
41 Puerto Rico ( US) 78.54 74.6 82.67
28 42 Bosnia and Herzegovina 78.17 74.57 82.03
43 Bermuda ( UK) 78.13 76 80.29
44 Saint Helena ( UK) 78.09 75.19 81.15
29 45 United States 78 75.15 80.97

.........Child Mortality in Reverse Order...........

163 United States 6.3 7.8
164 New Caledonia 6.1 8.7
165 Cyprus 5.9 6.9
166 Brunei 5.5 6.7
167 Channel Islands (Jersey and Guernsey) 5.2 6.2
168 Cuba 5.1 6.5
169 New Zealand 5.0 6.4
170 Portugal 5.0 6.6
171 Italy 5.0 6.1
172 Ireland 4.9 6.2
173 Canada 4.8 5.9
174 United Kingdom 4.8 6.0
175 Slovenia 4.8 6.4
176 Israel 4.7 5.7
177 Netherlands 4.7 5.9
178 Luxembourg 4.5 6.6
179 Australia 4.4 5.6
180 Austria 4.4 5.4
181 Denmark 4.4 5.8
182 Germany 4.3 5.4
183 Spain 4.2 5.3
184 France 4.2 5.2
185 Belgium 4.2 5.3
186 Korea, South 4.1 4.8
187 Switzerland 4.1 5.1
188 Czech Republic 3.8 4.8
189 Finland 3.7 4.7
190 Hong Kong 3.7 4.7
191 Norway 3.3 4.4
192 Sweden 3.2 4.0
193 Japan 3.2 4.2
194 Singapore 3.0 4.1
195 Iceland 2.9 3.9

Elizabeth Edwards is a wealthy woman, whose husband is worth tens of millions of dollars. I would presume that McCain is well off too, courtesy of a lifetime spent in the Armed Forces and in the Senate.

And she's bitching that she can't get free health care? I thought that we were working on a plan to get the uninsured coverage. I didn't realize this was a way to get America's richest to get free trips to the doctor.

Gotta love liberals. Even the wealthy ones have a sense of entitlement that just staggers the imagination. I wish Elizabeth Edwards well in her recovery, but don't feel like I should have to pay for it when she's living in a multimillion dollar house.

What Liz Edwards pointed out was that socialized medicine is good enough for her and John McCain, courtesy of the Senate, but its not good enough for YOU........

RIR, she is not bitching about getting free healthcare, she is bitching because McCain's plan would not cover pre-exhisting conditions, NO MATTER HOW MUCH MONEY YOU ARE WORTH!!! Because you are probably fat and lazy, you must have high blood pressure. So you have a heart attack, well the insurance claims it is pre-exhisting becuase high blood pressure can lead to a heart attack. So, they do not pay for your hospitalization and treatment. Try reading the article before you spout off and show you intelligence - IQ of what....20????

If your mother or sister had LE's cancer they'd stand a good chance of being dropped by their carrier and die a premature and painful death for the edification of capitalism......

Why don't we learn from what other countries are doing better than us, with better results than we are getting ??.....

Have we gotten so dumb that we can no longer learn ??........

The Canadian system isn't the only system. There are other systems that seem to work better. Even a two tier system where everyone is covered is the way to go, I'm not sure.

the australian system and german system would work more effectively in the US.

i'm an independent contractor(painter).i don't make tons of money. insurance for me is almost imposable to afford. when i asked others what they do, they said to get married to some one with insurance. thats no reason to get married, and what if i was gay in a state without gay marriage? i guess when i get really sick my health care will be a gun shot to the head. thanks for keeping my health care legal. it also works good for keeping the king of england out of my face.

"Why don't we learn from what other countries are doing better than us, with better results than we are getting ??.....""

Because the Republicans have spent millions and millions convincing Americans that anything other than for-profit private health care will piss off God and create a Communist dictatorship.

People with the diseases that Edwards and McCain have and who have no insurance because they can't afford it will end up in an emergency room which they can't pay for either. It's you and I with insurance who end up paying for this because you can be damn well sure it won't be the managed care industry.

The uninsured will die maybe right away or certainly earlier than they had to because they didn't get the early treatment that might have cured them, which maybe is where McCain is at, or prolonged their life which apparently is where Edwards is at.

We're told there are 40 million uninsured people at risk for these kind of things to happen to them. Until more of them take the trouble to vote for what ought to be an automatic right to good medical care in an advanced western democracy they'll continue to die earlier than they need to.

The reason that we, alone among western democracies, don't have universal health care is because our government, despite what Lincoln said, is not of, for and by the people. Our government is of, by and for those who can afford to buy it and who care little about America and Americans except as a source of income. To them health care is just another commodity that can be sold at a profit and they'll continue to fund and lobby the political parties, especially the Republicans, to keep things that way.

**** my health care will be a gun shot to the head. thanks for keeping my health care legal. it also works good for keeping the king of england out of my face.

Posted by justmike *****

......if you were in England you'd be covered......courtesy of the monarchy.......

.......here.....the total coverage is only good enough for our monarchs (politicians)...not for YOU........

........they get healthcare but no guns...
..we get guns but no healthcare....
...they have a monarchy...
...but our politicians get the royal treatment and we get the royal shaft...
...there's irony in the reversal........

Instead of being diagnosed by an M.D., who received three years post-doctoral training as an internal medicine resident, you will have access to a "nurse-practitioner

Bullshit. As in every hospital everywhere, you would be "triaged" at the ER by an RN, then seen by an MD. Remember when Diana was killed, the French ambulance team were BOTH MDs, not mere EMTs?

But the jist of Johnson's post was that he admits Americans are dieing because they can't afford medical care. I's just a different form of "rationing". Bad for the Iraqis, but good enough for Americans according to Johnson.

Irony Flag and Palindrome Flag for Skizziks

Try reading the article before you spout off and show you intelligence - IQ of what....20????

Posted by Silence
* * * *

Well I'm a Republican, so my IQ must be 10, right? We're all a bunch of knuckle-dragging retards on the right.
But you missed my point. Elizabeth Edwards is worth tens of millions of dollars. I didn't realize that the health plan legislation under consideration is meant to give people like her and others on the Forbes 400 competitive healthcare premiums. Yes--healthcare insurers are reluctant to offer coverage to cancer victims, just like auto insurers are going to charge more for people who keep getting tickets and into accidents. Neither of the plans on offer repeals that simple truth; all they do is shift the burden to taxpayers, who will be paying for the preexisting conditions of everyone else. Is that fair for those making, say, $30,000 a year? Maybe. Is it fair for those, like Edwards and McCain, who can afford to self-insure, or can just write a check? No.
By the way--when insulting someone else's intelligence, it's advisable to ensure that there aren't any glaring misspellings in your post. Like "existing".

The best care is in countries where the populations are about 12.

Considering the shameless and shocking state of "greed before need" that is the American Health Care system

Posted by dethspud
I guess that means you won't be comming to the states for any of your health care needs. You are welcome to stay north of the border.

The population of Andorra was estimated at 66824 in July 2000

You have got to be kidding me, or did you just look at the list?

Despite government promises and the billions of dollars funnelled into the Canadian health-care system, the average patient waited more than 18 weeks in 2007 between seeing their family doctor and receiving the surgery or treatment they required," said Nadeem Esmail, director of Health System Performance Studies at the Fraser Institute and co-author of the 17th annual edition of Waiting Your Turn: Hospital Waiting Lists in Canada.

Coupla things, first, The Fraser Institute are a bunch of corporate propagandists in the guise of a right wing think tank. They are the same assholes who recently invited Karl Rove to speak up here in Vancouver at the local Art Gallery before folks like Spud protested and made the evil little shitstain give his weaselly little talk back at his hotel instead.

Second, already pre-emptively covered this...

"Before any pipsqueaks pipe up with their observation that the Canadian Health Care system has long line ups let Spud just state that the main reason that there aren't long line ups for procedures in the US is because very few can afford them these days.

Be Well.

Posted by dethspud at 2008-03-31 02:45 PM"

Rather see bigger line ups cos everybody's covered than smaller line ups cos nobody can afford to be sick.

Be Well.

**** The best care is in countries where the populations are about 12.

Posted by JMFJ *****

.......costs are per capita......so the "small population" deflection is not valid.......

"Irony Flag and Palindrome Flag for Skizziks"

Vocabulary flag for SAMBARBER

**** "Before any pipsqueaks pipe up with their observation that the Canadian Health Care system has long line ups let Spud just state that the main reason that there aren't long line ups for procedures in the US is because very few can afford them these days. SPUD ****

......sadly ....when many are faced with cancer or degenerative disease......they just go home to die or blow their brains out.......

The problem with statistics is that you can make them say anything you want.

Until all countries use the same standard for infant mortality rates, the rates are useless to compare to each other.

And since the US infant mortality is the most lenient, it greatly increase our rate. Which in turn, greatly decreases US overall life span.

I almost blew a gasket when I read this:

Yes--healthcare insurers are reluctant to offer coverage to cancer victims, just like auto insurers are going to charge more for people who keep getting tickets and into accidents.

Dumb and callous. Typical Republican. As if stupid drivers and unfortunate cancer victims are the same bloody thing (maybe according to an actuary).

But you missed my point. Elizabeth Edwards is worth tens of millions of dollars. I didn't realize that the health plan legislation under consideration is meant to give people like her and others on the Forbes 400 competitive healthcare premiums.

No, shit for brains, you missed her point. People with her condition, not her balance sheet, not her fucking account statements, not her assets, her condition, wont be protected from having their coverage dropped.

Sometimes you make a good point. Sometimes... sometimes, you're just fucking wrong.

No, shit for brains, you missed her point.
* * *

I guess I did. I gotta confess, every time one of the Edwards opens their giant gaping maws, the only thing that tends to spill out are lies and exaggerations. In his book, Edwards recounts how embarrassing it was to go to the local restaurant after church one Sunday, and having to leave because they couldn't afford anything on the menu, his dad being a worker in the local textile mill. Boo hoo hoo. Then you realize, wait a second--Robbins, NC is just a few hundred people. How many restaurants could there be? And how do you not know, give or take, how much food costs in the town's restaurants when there are only a couple of them? And most of all, Poor Dad was the mill's production manager. So a restaurant that served the town's millworkers was priced so high that the management couldn't afford a cheeseburger?

He's just a lying POS. He's a lying lawyer POS, which is probably redundant, but true even so. So, no--when I read that Elizabeth Edwards is pissed off that McCain's plan doesn't cover her, I would suggest she just get her husband off to sue somebody, and pay for it that way. And, since this is a 'blog, I'm free to make any point I want.