Change it to "All other people's religions are fairy tales".

Problem solved.

And?

The God of the Billboard is gonna piss in my fuckin' Wheaties now?

"When you condemn all religions and say they are a fairytale that is wrong," said Rich Stormes

That's right, all religions except mine are fairytales. Jeese, get it right people!

Fuck Florida.

Most folks just can't handle the truth.

They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong.

True that.

And you can be wrong too.

Nobody knows for sure.

"And you can be wrong too."

Bullshit. Math is on my side. They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong.

Bullshit. Math is on my side.

----

So you can mathematically prove that no God exists? And I'm sure that's all peer reviewed.

And you can be wrong too.

Nobody knows for sure.

Posted by Pirate

Being religious just to hedge your bets doesn't speak well for your God, or your faith in it.

"So you can mathematically prove that no God exists? "

No, dickhead, read what I wrote.

They can't all be right...

Absolutely true statement. At most...one is right. At most.

but they all can be wrong.

Absolutely mathematically true. What don't you understand?

Most folks just can't handle the truth.



Posted by Dave


My thoughts exactly Dave.

They know deep down that the bilboard is correct, but they just can't admit it after having invested so much time in religion.

I'm always puzzled as to why those who are atheists and non-believers in God feel they must destroy and mock the religions of all those who do believe.

My philosophy is to not try and push anyone into any religion if they don't want it or choose not to believe in God but the same respect should be returned by their respecting the beliefs of those who do wish to believe in God.

Why don't these atheists just butt out and leave those who do believe in God alone instead of always mocking and tearing down their beliefs. If you don't want to believe in God -- well, that's up to you. But if I want to believe in God just shut up and let me believe in what I want to.

Live and let live.

If you live like there is no God, you'd better be right. There's still time to reconsider and turn it around friend. But not much time...

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him would not perish but see everlasting life..."


Remember. Not much time.

"But if I want to believe in God just shut up and let me believe in what I want to."

Fine by me, and it's always been fine by me. Where I draw the line is when you want to mix your religion with my government.

"If you live like there is no God, you'd better be right."

Whereas if you live like there IS a God, and you're wrong, you've just wasted a helluva lot of valuable time, and made a huge fool of yourself.

"They know deep down the billboard is correct...."

In the same way I know deep down that you can't mind read worth a damn?

"Atheists and non-believers feel they must destroy and mock the religions of those that believe...."

As has been noted, modern atheism has a lot in common with stand-up comedy. Without the jokes there's not a lot there. No laughs no movement.

"Most folks can't handle the truth...."

That pretty much sums up the New Testament.

I'm always puzzled as to why those who are atheists and non-believers in God feel they must destroy and mock the religions of all those who do believe.

If theists had facts to support them, they would have no concern. On a broader level, I say atheists have more respect for truth than theists.

A tip: The Gospels are about the sun (Jesus) passing from the Age of Aries to the Age of Pisces. Perhaps it's too embarrassing for Christians to accept they've been duped so badly.

"Atheists have more facts to support them..."

Yes, Ray. Now name the PH.D. historians and archaeologists that think your ideas about religion amount to anything more than faith.

The burden of proof is on those who claim that something is, not on those who claim that something is not.

Well, Ness, in Ray's specific case he accepts that particular burden.

As for the rest of it, Christianity is an historical religion. It is therefore falsifiable. Every turn of the spade could be seen as a dramatic event.

If memory serves, there was no confirmation a king named Hezekiah ever ruled Israel or built a certain water system, until an inscription bearing his name was found last year taking responsibility for it.

Now, that's what's called evidence. Maybe with work the entire story will be confirmed in the manner in which you prefer to understand it. Because, as you know, your tastes are important to us.

Zed

It's an irrelevant argument. Facts are their own authority. A simple search will tell you that the astrological Age of Aries ended on the first century, followed by the Age of Pisces. The whole Bible can be explained by reference to astronomical allegory. The proof is on my website. I could give plenty of examples, but for you, it's a waste of time.

As for the rest of it, Christianity is an historical religion.

So you say. Paul didn't recognize the existence of an historical Jesus.

"Facts are their own authority...."

Gee. Great. Now, you won't mind if I just assert that here for my point of view? I'd say that would pretty much put an end to all debate, would it not?

"The proof is on my website..."

Send a link to any recognized authority on these issues and see what he thinks, then. If you have the truth, you'd be doing him a favor.

Any standard college textbook on logic will tell you that appeal to authority does not necessarily constitute proof. Otherwise we would still be living in caves. There is too much vested interest in the status quo.

The history of science would tell you that better ideas about reality sometimes take generations to become widely accepted. Old generations take their old ideas with them.

Apparently, the simple task of searching for the time when the astrological age of Aries passed to Pisces takes too much effort. Or more likely, you don't want to know.

I'm not asking you to appeal to authority, Ray. You act like your ideas are hot-house orchids that won't stand the nursery door being opened.

"Old generations take their ideas with them...."

Good point. If you don't want yours buried with you, do something.

I'll go one step further, then I have to go.

The silliness of Christianity embodies the belief that one can defeat reality and death in some form merely by entertaining the right belief. It's no wonder why our political system is just as screwed up. It's just as divorced from reality.

I might have about 35 years in me if I'm lucky. Then my son will take over.

You act like your ideas are hot-house orchids that won't stand the nursery door being opened.

My doors are always open. I'm sure you won't do that search.

It's only a silly idea if you don't think Christ rose on the third day, Ray. But Christians make a point of saying that, don't they?

"My doors are always open...."

Great. Expect to see that peer-reviewed article soon.

"Peer-reviewed...."

You know, like in science and stuff.

I don't recall religion ever being accepted as science.

Rise and fall are terms used in astrology. Done that search yet? Gotta go.

The people who actually spent their own money to put up a billboard for no other reason than to insult others should get help.

It is none of your business what others believe. If you take it upon yourself to "correct" the beliefs of others, you are an asshole. That applies to atheists just as much as it applies to people who want to shove their religion down your throat.

Live and let live and mind your own business.

I don't think they spent any money; the article states it was put up illegally.

But if it had been paid for, the group that believes all religious are fairy tales has as much right to speak up as the many religious groups that buy billboards. Such as those insufferably glib "God says" billboards that were all over the place a few years ago.

this is an absolute riot. the hypocrisy of the believers is to funny

"I don't think they spent any money; the article states it was put up illegally."

That's even worse. These people put their own safety at risk and labored for hours for no other reason than to insult the religious beliefs of others.

"the group that believes all religious are fairy tales has as much right to speak up as the many religious groups that buy billboards. Such as those insufferably glib "God says" billboards that were all over the place a few years ago."

My point was that both groups are insufferable. You can be an atheist and still realize that these agressive atheists are the same as the agressively religious. They are all driven by the same motives. They are unable to tolerate the fact that other people have their own beliefs.

I'm always puzzled as to why those who are atheists and non-believers in God feel they must destroy and mock the religions of all those who do believe.

Atheists only mock one more religion than anybody else.

So What Is The Difference ?

If You Did Not Believe Would It Be More Or Less An Insult.

To Me No Harm No Foul

-Sarge


Indeed

That harm is perceived is insight into the fragility of belief.

I'm always puzzled as to why those who are atheists and non-believers in God feel they must destroy and mock the religions of all those who do believe....

Posted by CalifChris

CC,

I believe in God, I just don't believe in religions. When you think about it, how can God endorse ANY of the current religions that have histories of murder, torture, war,child molestation, etc.

Whereas if you live like there IS a God, and you're wrong, you've just wasted a helluva lot of valuable time, and made a huge fool of yourself.

Posted by Danforth

How the hell is this true? If I live my life in the belief of God, but not religion, by trying to be a good person and trying to help my fellow man when he needs it, how am I wasting time and making a fool of myself?

Religion is the commercialization of belief in God.

You can't sell your product until you have separated it from the rest.

MediaNet said it had no idea the sign was there and someone put it up illegally in the middle of the night.

It looks like a professional job to me. I call bullshit on that statement. They were terrified of pissing off the zealots and caved.

Why would an atheist poke at other people's religion? For the same reason any human being would try to help another. Religions are a disease, whether you follow the bloodthirsty tribal god who was so set in his ways he had to kill his son rather than just forgive people for sins he supposedly made them knowing they would commit, or are a follower of the "religion of peace," that will kill you if you make fun of it. While I have a slight affinity for SOME of buddhism, eastern religions are not free of transgression either. Though supposedly disavowed by now, hinduism's caste system was and is a running human rights violation.

In the end, atheists attack other people's religions because the only difference between a schizophrenic and a beleiver are that even the schizo would think it was crazy if you told him his invisible friend was all powerfull. Religion just has to take it a step further, but just because millions or billions believe it makes it no more true than the belief in a flat earth.

Finally, all tongue-in-cheek disparagement aside, religion are dangerous, as i stated earlier, a social disease. If you are an atheist who wants to be happy, you realise you have to live the best life you can here, with just one chance, and you realise others have the same right. Religion makes things like torture allowed under the Bush administration culturally acceptable, because people think that in the end all the scales get balanced. It made people accept the same in the inquisition, and the witch trials. It did the same in the crusades. Now, it's language is used in the Bush "war on terror," and in the terrorists' (the actual ones, not the innocent and war-torn Iraqis) calls for jihad against us.

Religions may strive to achieve some good, but the fact is, they set up a framework that ensures some will be extemists. It gives false hope and prayers where action is required. It will continue to be used to control the uneducated in bizarre and sometimes evil ways untill it is wholly eradicated by rationalism. Hopefully, we will all eventually learn to believe completely in our ourselves and our responsibility to our own species, and not a fairy tale.

"by trying to be a good person and trying to help my fellow man when he needs it, how am I wasting time and making a fool of myself?"

The first part, yes, that's great. As for the fool, what would you call a group of people who gather for hours every Sunday to chant and sing to the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

what would you call a group of people who gather for hours every Sunday to chant and sing to the Flying Spaghetti Monster?


Danforth, you're Breaking the Sacred Oath!!

Do not bring the sacred pasta into this! His starchy appendages embrace us all. lol

Can i get a ramen!!!

Ha! Topic reminds Spud...

Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?

~Douglas Adams

Be Well.

RAMEN!!!!

RE: Posted by zeropointnrg :

Way to go, Bro. Elucidated perfectly.

Gre4ndel, Like Tolkien...is a MORON.

Cheers.

"Religion is Bunk"
Thomas Edison
(Now General Electric Corporation)

Gre4ndel, Like Tolkien...is a MORON.

Cheers.

Linking me with Tolkien is an amazing compliment.

Thank you.

Cheers

"...by trying to be a good person and trying to help my fellow man when he needs it..."

These things do not require any belief in a higher power.

Actually, Tolkein is dead. How's that Second Coming thing working out?

what would you call a group of people who gather for hours every Sunday to chant and sing to the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Posted by Danforth


DF, I think we're saying the same thing. Those nuts who gather every sunday morning to hail the flying spaghetti monster believe in the God of their religion not just in God. You don't have to be an atheist to abhor religion.

Live and let live and mind your own business.

Posted by Sully


I certainly agree with this, however it is the fire-breathing evangelicals and most other Chistian cults that damn you to hell for non-believing and, in the case of the evangelicals, try to regulate everyone's life through their influence in politics.

"...by trying to be a good person and trying to help my fellow man when he needs it..."

These things do not require any belief in a higher power.

Posted by Dave

True, Dave. However, the stigma in this country for people who don't go to church is that they are not "good" people. Actually I am glad that all of thse nutty preachers, ie Wright, Falwell,(although dead) Robertson, etc. are showing their callous, mean side because it just goes to prove that one is not a good person just because he is a religious leader.

Religions may strive to achieve some good, but the fact is, they set up a framework that ensures some will be extemists. It gives false hope and prayers where action is required. It will continue to be used to control the uneducated in bizarre and sometimes evil ways untill it is wholly eradicated by rationalism. Hopefully, we will all eventually learn to believe completely in our ourselves and our responsibility to our own species, and not a fairy tale.

Posted by zeropointnrg

God is just an imaginary friend for adults

True, Dave. However, the stigma in this country for people who don't go to church is that they are not "good" people. Actually I am glad that all of thse nutty preachers, ie Wright, Falwell,(although dead) Robertson, etc. are showing their callous, mean side because it just goes to prove that one is not a good person just because he is a religious leader.

Posted by geezer1

yeah like "religion" is some kind of free pass to morality.

Its not like we are out robbing their house, raping their daughters and selling drugs during the 1 hour a week people go to hedge their bets against eternal damnation..

geez people get over yourselves.


You go to heaven for the climate and hell for the company..

It's funny, the folks who were actually affected by it took it rather calmly and in stride. While on here you have flaming atheists and flaming God head's going nuts.

Actually, I'm just very enthusiastic about it - hope to see a lot more!

I have stopped having conversations with people about this. There is (at this time) no proof that any of the 'gods' of any of the various religions exist. Religion is simply a matter of 'faith.' That is where the discussions always end. Believers cannot 'prove' the exixtence of their god, and personally, I do not have the 'faith' in a sort of 'personal god' that most religions describe. I MIGHT buy into defining god as a sort of driving force in the creation of the universe - but I certainly view any consideration other than 'god created the universe - then went on to better things' (not really paying attention to this universe any more) as the only realistic appraisal.

The probem is when religion figures into political decisions such as foreign policy.

When religious beliefs dictate/influence the direction of a country's foreign policy then you have SERIOUS problems.

Also, when religions influence people to favor one people over another, you have SERIOUS PROBLEMS.

The USA's foreign policy has been a victim of religious influence for far too long.

Speaking as a free-thinker, I'd have so say that while I accept no religion, anyone else can believe whatever they want, so long as I don't have to get involved.

"I MIGHT beleive in God as sort of driving force in the creation universe...."

Careful, PYG---According to some of your brethren you MIGHT have a social disease.

Fuck Florida.
Posted by Jomama


Most sensible post on this thread.

"I have stopped having conversations with people about this...."

Then what happens? You start conversing. Miracles can also be small.

"You go to Hell for the company...."

One wonders what the damned talk about. My own idea about Hell has always been that it's exactly like what we have now, but without hope.

That is, nothing really matters. Which appears to be what many think already. So maybe they'll be right at home.

I'm not wasting MY life criticizing YOUR religion, CChris, but if I see you spending the night waiting for the Great Pumpkin to fly in, I am within my rights in suggesting that you do more practical stuff.

Actually, religions are shared beliefs. Great Pumpkin-ism is one. Atheism and agnosticism are others. Fairytale-ism is surely acceptible. If your religion seems plausible to YOU, it needs no defending. herm

spammer....

Eisnstein? Who's that?

I'm an apathetic agnostic: I don't know, and I don't care.

Wow. We have a few like these in Ohio. Gotta love the fire and brimstone messages.

Wow... My own backyard, right here on the Retort!

Ha! This billboard is about 5 miles away from where I work! While I agree that "all religions are fairy tales", I honestly don't see the point that was trying to be made here. I don't care what somebody believes in, and the fact that atheists do things like this is one of the reasons people are so afraid of atheists. It's similar to how people don't like Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons because they love to advertise their religion. Atheists need to stop treating atheism like it's a cult. The point of atheism is supposed to be a lack of religion, but things like this prove otherwise. Treating it like a religion makes atheists out to be uppity "too good for you" assholes.

Brent, you from the Orlando area too?

They are all driven by the same motives. (Atheists are unable to tolerate the fact that other people have their own beliefs.

Posted by Sully

Yea, it's not like Christians and other religions have ever spent any time trying to shove their beliefs down anyone's throat. Atheist's motivations are different, they're just fighting back. Religions-offensive, Atheists-defensive

----------

I believe in God, I just don't believe in religions.

If I live my life in the belief of God, but not religion, by trying to be a good person and trying to help my fellow man when he needs it, how am I wasting time and making a fool of myself?

Posted by geezer1

This is the attitude that puzzles me th most. If you believe in God, but not religion, then what God? God only exists in religious texts.
What is the purpose of believing in this God of yours? If you "trying to be a good person and trying to help my fellow man when he needs it", you won't get into heaven. All the religions (who made up God) tell us this all the time. They say you have to follow their rules. So what is the purpose of your belief, other than to prevent yourself from admitting reality to yourself?

"Yea, it's not like Christians and other religions have ever spent any time trying to shove their beliefs down anyone's throat. Atheist's motivations are different, they're just fighting back. Religions-offensive, Atheists-defensive"

tfdnihi

Russia & China, of course, as atheist states are always defending themselves against the Bushes of the world then, right?

"To prevent you from admitting reality to yourself...."

It happens human beings beleive the best to make themselves feel better, quite true.

It's more often true, in my experience, that they beleive and expect the worst about the universe and themselves. No, it's not to make themselves feel better. Only God knows why they do that.

So, if religion is fulfillment of inmost desires, you have to account for why so many of you want to be so damned dark.

Makes you come near understanding what it means to be among the lost. You may be one of them.

"They're (atheists) just fighting back...."

Tribal bullshit. Yeah, tell me lack of belief isn't a religous system in the worst possible sense of that term.

"Atheists need to quit treating atheism like it's a cult...."

What I said.

Hey Plum... I'm near I-4 & 436.

I drive right by you on my way to work every week day, Brent. (Well, I sort of go around the Altamonte Mall to avoid I-4, but you get the idea) I live right by Wekiva State Park in Longwood and I work over by UCF.

There is nothing wrong with debating religion vs. atheism, but to advertise any religion (or lack there of) for the sake of advertising is pure egotistical bullshit. And if you are doing it as an atheist you are doing the opposite of what your own intention is by creating a religion out of atheism. You can't stop religion by forming a new religion. It's like trying to spread peace and freedom by starting wars.

"Yeah, tell me lack of belief isn't a religous system in the worst possible sense of that term."

If you insist. Lack of belief isn't a religious system. Lack of belief in unicorns isn't a religious system. Lack of belief in alien abductions isn't a religious system.


How many atheists go door to door trying to convert people to atheism?

"How many atheists go door to door to convert people to atheism....?

I don't know. How many atheists go out at night and post anti-religous statements on billboards?

"Lack of beleif isn't a religous system...."

If that was all there was to it. What I've learned here is that it isn't.

"to advertise any religion ,,, is pure egotistical bullshit."

Yup, insofar as ANY advertising is pure bullshit. The ads are designed to get you into that temple, via guilt or promise of immortality. You will then put money in the plate (at best), tithe or leave humungous bequests to that temple. It's not much different from tactics used to peddle corn flakes or beer. herm

Plum... You live in Sweetwater Oaks, Wow! I live in Weathersfield. I hate 436.

"I don't know. How many atheists go out at night and post anti-religous statements on billboards?"


Given that this story is "newsworthy," a hell of a lot fewer than Christians. Has anybody here had an atheist knock on their door promoting atheism?

I sure don't talk about it Nulli.

my dad was legendary for his atheism promotions:>)

Has anybody here had an atheist knock on their door promoting atheism?

Anybody? Bueller?

my dad knocked on my door promoting atheism all the time...does that count?:>)

Jesus predicted this long ago
Revelation 18:17-19

In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!
"Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, 'Was there ever a city like this great city?' They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:
"Woe! Woe, O great city,
where all who had ships on the sea beacame rich through her wealth!
In one hour she has been brought to ruin!

Someone forgot to turn off the italics.

Wasn't it Clarke you came up with the "All religions can't be right, but they can all be wrong?" Honestly, I don't remember.

As for Roderick's 0204 comment on the 30th, that's just Pascal's wager talking, as others had mentioned, I'm sure.

Let me try this again.

There, did that work?

I have to endure THEIR "Right to Life" billboards, bumper stickers, T-shirts and advertising BLITZKREIG,

But let us put up one stinking billboard and it's the end of life as we know it. It's just F-ing fine when its PRO-Jesus.

Armyvet...yeah, no kidding. I'm not even OFFENDED by seeing that crap everyday. Like most normal people, i ignore it, but if asked...might comment on the intelligence of the person putting political crud on their bumper.

Religion is a method of control over the people, simple as that. Look at the middle East if you need proof, or even in the middle of the US. They don't call it "faith" for nothing.

The Toad

I have to endure THEIR "Right to Life" billboards, bumper stickers, T-shirts and advertising BLITZKREIG,

Posted by ArmyVet

Right, we're talking about a state (Fl.) that has Choose Life license plates.

Atheists might not be going door to door, but you have people like Richard Dawkins, who is no doubt a brilliant theorist, going off on how atheists need to spread the message of atheism and that's just stupid. If people want to believe in something, like a higher power, who are we atheists to stop them? Yes, religion is based on nothing scientific, but atheists need to realize that atheism isn't either. Atheism assumes no god because of a lack of evidence, but to make such an assumption is a logical fallacy, which is contrary to science and the ideas of Karl Popper whose philosophy of deductionism is the standard for modern science.

The religious billboards I run into make me laugh. There's one I drive by occasionally that just says, "JESUS." No picture, no art, just "JESUS." My wife and I laugh about it everytime we see it, it's like, what the heck is that accomplishing?

It's probabloy about as effective in changing minds as this atheist sign.

And next time, atheists, if you want a sign up on a billboard, be like the Christians and do it legally.

=)

... Tolkien...is a MORON.

Posted by DUMPLING1

Written by someone who probably believes "Everybody Loves Raymond" is the height of theatrical expression.

How could anybody say that Tolkien is a moron? Very few writers throughout all of history have been able to create a world as vivid as Middle Earth was.

"Very few writers throughout all of history have been able to create a world as vivid as Middle Earth was."

And may have tried. Many years ago, after becoming enthralled by Tolkien and his writing, I attempted to read the "Sword of Shannara" by Terry Brooks. Smacked of shoddy knock-off verging on outright plagiarism; could barely finish it. This book has mutated into a series that seems to reproduce like bad sitcoms. Pablum no doubt adored by those who think the "Halo" books are great literature.

On a road in my town there's a sign that says:

"Let's meet at my house on Sunday before the game."

GOD

I find many things wrong with this. The ARROGANCE that this displays is appalling. One, don't assume your god is my god. Two, don't assume your god even exists in my reality. Three, god watches football?

It's arrogant enough to think that a god who created an entire universe gives a damn about what you want, but to assume that god is just like every other American who watches football only serves to prove that god was invented by man, not the other way around.

Assuming god exists at all...

Halo books are good reads, Contact Harvest being the best one imo.

But of course, we're argueing with opinions here, and that gets nobody anywhere fast.

Denton,
I'm not religious in the least. Lately, I've been militantly aetheist.
That being said, the sign you describe seems like good marketing to me. Hell, you remembered it and you're talking about it. Maybe it brought a few people in, but I can all but garauntee it didn't make anyone leave.

Unfortunately you have a point.

I'm a victim of marketing!

Zed - I probably should have been more clear. When I used 'discuss' I (of course, when talking seriously about religious differences) meant 'critically discuss' ---> read 'argue.' I no longer feel a need to rehash old logical arguments which, even when the believer acknowledges the arguments, ultimately run against the believer's wall of 'faith.' (The old saw of wrestling with a pig comes to mind.)

My only issues against whomever believing whatever they want are the ever-present proselytizing of 'organized' religions, and the immense intertwining of organized religion with various governments (especially the US.)

Included in the list of fairy tale religions is modern liberalism. They believe in crazy stuff like the welfare state, protectionism isolationism, pacifism and global warming.

There's a family I know - they have a housekeeper that's a Jehovah's witness and she lives with them. One day some JW's came by knocking on the door, and one of the children answered the door and told them "Thanks, we've already got one"

"My only issues against whomever believing whatever they want are the ever-present proselytizing of 'organized' religions" -PYG13

I agree that organized religion can be harmful, but when atheists organize they aren't doing any better. It makes little sense to create an organization that defines itself based on religion (as atheism still is, despite the fact that it is anti-religion) to destroy organizations that define themselves based on religion. It's a backwards logic, and atheists, who are supposed to be science based, should know better.

Oh, no, please don't "organize" - that would mean you'd be able to pool resources and such. What nonsense.

rufus ( the 13th black apostle ) - "do you believe now?"

bethany - "nope, but i have a good idea"

......yes......all religions are fairy-tales......

........take a deep breath.......let it sink in.......yup....you're ok........

They were just trying to help - Jesus Christ!

Included in the list of fairy tale religions is modern liberalism. They believe in crazy stuff like the welfare state, protectionism isolationism, pacifism and global warming.

Sounds good, sign me up!

Anything to avoid getting entrapped in the insanity that is modern "conservatism".

They believe in crazy stuff like corporate welfare over the general welfare of the people, increased deregulation even after the subprime meltdown, and privitization of prisons, the military and schools etc, letting national energy policy be written by Big Oil, staffing the EPA with corporate polluters and lobbyists, making torture a policy, illegal resource wars based on corporate not national best interests, and they also are neo-flat earthers who actually buy ito the massive cognitive dissonance campaign of lies sown by global polluters instead of the obvious-to-a-five-year-old-
child FACTS in the case of Global Warming/ Climate Change.

In short, they are dangerously deluded, grasping, immoral beings who believe in ecocidal policy and corporate profits over people's dignity. They are psudo patriots. They let think tanks tell them wot to think despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Short sighted cowards and dangerous fools sez Spud.

Do. Not. Want.

Be Well.

Yup, is Spud entering blogworld, as ya do,
stage left.

****I agree that organized religion can be harmful, but when atheists organize they aren't doing any better.INCRDBLPLUM *****

......they're doing a little bit better.....they've put the ignorant superstition of religion behind them.......

........now they can work on the rest......

Agreed, that atheism is a bit less illogical than other faith based beliefs. There is no proof or disproof of god. There is no real useable evidence to suggest either way. So when asking whether god exists it is a 50% chance true and 50% chance false. So atheists have a 50% chance of being correct that there is no god, whereas something like Hinduism is one variation in an infinite number of possibillities of what form god or gods would take. In that way, Hinduism has a 1/infinity chance of being correct. Same with any other religion.

But what I'm talking about is organized atheism. Organized atheism has the potential to be just as dangerous, hateful, and intollerant as any other organized religion.

"to assume that god is just like every other American"

I'm sorry, haven't you heard, god/jesus has officially been declared a caucasian-American, card carrying republican, white male...who loves guns and only answers the prayers of the Christian fundamentalists?

God created both man and evolution - man created religion....

Agreed, that atheism is a bit less illogical than other faith based beliefs. There is no proof or disproof of god. There is no real useable evidence to suggest either way. So when asking whether god exists it is a 50% chance true and 50% chance false. So atheists have a 50% chance of being correct that there is no god, whereas something like Hinduism is one variation in an infinite number of possibillities of what form god or gods would take. In that way, Hinduism has a 1/infinity chance of being correct. Same with any other religion.

But what I'm talking about is organized atheism. Organized atheism has the potential to be just as dangerous, hateful, and intollerant as any other organized religion.

Posted by Incredibleplum at 2008-03-31 12:48 PM

A bit less? I would agree that atheism makes a small logical leap. But it is leaps and bounds less logical than all religions. Atheism isn't even 'really' a religion, any more than baldness is a hair color.

You don't get proof that something doesn't exist btw, that's why it isn't such a logical leap. Prove to me that unicorns don't exist. You can't. But you are silly if you believe in them.

Big John, that's why I said "less illogical" rather than "more logical. Atheism is illogical, you are right. To quote myself again, "There is no real evidence to suggest either way". So you can't logically prove atheism, and you can't logically prove any theistic belief. The reason it is "less illogical" than other faith based beliefs is because, do to the lack of any sort of evidence for or against the existence of god, you can only really say that there is a 50% chance of there being a god and 50% chance of there not being a god. Atheists have a 50% chance of being correct, but in terms of the other religions, there are an infinite amount of ways that you can interpret gods existence, so to label yourself any religion, you have an infinite fraction of a chance that you are correct. In that way, atheism is more believable than other religions.

"When you condemn all religions and say they are a fairytale, that is wrong," said Rich Stormes, a nearby business owner...who, as we all know is the biggest brained know-it-all in the universe...

A few simple questions:

"How do we know all religion isn't just creative
historical fiction?"

Just throwing it out there...(grins sheepishly)

"I mean, if God is so "Personal" where the heck is He, She, It? And why is there so much suffering?"
...(backs away from the trainwreck this will make)

I just did this so that the 1,000,001 F-tards who all assume they have all the answers can get on now and rant till they feel better about their insecure selves...

Truthful Answers: "nobody knows"

People seem to have an intrinsic need to belong. Inevitably any organization will do. For that reason alone, religion will continue to exist, undoubtedly even long after political parties cease to. The problem with atheism is that it is essentially a negation and provides no replacement for religion.

A separate issue is that for the human race to mature, humans need to learn to think for themselves, to evaluate, analyze, draw reasonable conclusions. Looking at the world today, methinks it's going to take a very long time for that day to arrive.

Aw heck, take away Gawd and you've removed most of the GOP's plank.... poor wittle GOPers !

I ACTUALLY SEE THE MERITS OF RELIGION

IT IDENTIFIES THE WEAK

Yes, that applies to the existence of unicorns as well. You cannot disprove the existence of unicorns. it's impossible.

I'll bet that the picture on the "Jesus" billboard does not remotely resemble Yasir Arafat - but that's roughly what "He" looked like. herm

I'll bet that the picture on the "Jesus" billboard does not remotely resemble Yasir Arafat - but that's roughly what "He" looked like. herm

Posted by herm


Do you mean to say that Jesus doesn't have lily white skin, perfectly groomed and conditioned brown hair, and big brown puppy dog eyes?

God Dammit!

The god of the Old Testement is like an abusive husband -> Hits loved ones -> tells loved ones "I love you, I'm so sorry, won't happen again" -> punches wife -> REPEAT.

as for the other part. Thomas got to stick his hand into the spear wound. Is it really too much to ask for a little proof? Worshiping Jesus is pretty much the same as worshiping John Lennon 2000 years from now.

I'll bet that the picture on the "Jesus" billboard does not remotely resemble Yasir Arafat - but that's roughly what "He" looked like. herm

Posted by herm


Do you mean to say that Jesus doesn't have lily white skin, perfectly groomed and conditioned brown hair, and big brown puppy dog eyes?

God Dammit!

Posted by ddenton

No Herm is wrong, obviously Jesus was white ... haven't you ever seen the pictures painted of him?

*** So when asking whether god exists it is a 50% chance true and 50% chance false. INCR ***

.......so when you say that Santa Claus may or may not exist......are you saying the chance is 50 % ?....

......I think not......and there is far more tangible evidence for the existence of Santa Clause than there is for God.....just because some people believe in a delusion does not give it a 50/50 chance of being true......

***** Organized atheism has the potential to be just as dangerous, hateful, and intollerant as any other organized religion. INCR *****

......there is no organized atheism........its simply a lack of belief in the existence of divine beings.........

.......people often point to Communism as being atheistic....and Communists can be atheists, but there are also Christian Communists in Russia, and Buddhist Communists in China.......

........the atheism is a stand alone belief that does not require any organization or action.......

.........best of all, it asks for no donations..........

Skizziks. When there is no evidence one way or the other on a yes or no question, the answers of yes and no get a 50% equal weight. I disagree that there is more tangible evidence in the existence of Santa Clause, because this is testable. I bet if you asked as many parents as possible whether Santa really gave their kids a gift they would tell you "no". People have been to the north pole and have never seen Santa's house. There is plenty of recent evidence that humans made him up in the late 19th Century after a political cartoon. The evidence of Santa's origins suggests that the likelihood of Santa's existence, at least on Earth, is far less than 50%. Now if you ask if there is a Santa Clause somewhere in the universe, you can't prove one way or another, so the probability goes back to being 50%/50%.

Your logic is flawed......

......if there is zero evidence of something existing, then the odds of that item existing, would be between zero and one percent at best.......

......you are giving equal weight to the possible existence of God, Allah, Yahweh, the Tooth Fairy, Gremlins, Goblns, Thor, Zeus, and the Kneeknockers.......

........if you feel that all these fictional beings have a fifty-fifty chance of being real, then our discussion is not on the same level......

.......have a good day........

"there is no organized atheism........its simply a lack of belief in the existence of divine beings" -Skizziks

Skizziks, I have no quarrels with atheists. I AM an atheist. However, there are atheists out there that are trying to organize. This billboard is an organized event. Richard Dawkins seems to want to organize atheists. There are groups out there that are atheist! The American Atheists, the Atheist Alliance International, Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers, Atheists United, Atheists Anonymous. These are real atheist organizations!

What is the point in organizing Such groups, and don't you think that these groups could become intollerant of other organized faith based groups?

"if there is zero evidence of something existing, then the odds of that item existing, would be between zero and one percent at best" -Skizziks

In a universe or multiverse that may be infinte, the possibilities may be infinite as well, Skizziks, so your 0-1% is incorrect. If everything is finite, you are correct, but we don't even know that. We can make guesses that the universe we live in is finite, but how do we know ours is the only one? How do we know other dimensions that we can't comprehend don't exist? Therefore, the likelihood of anything we've never witenessed happening and have no evidence for is 50%.

Skizziks, you really need to read up on Karl Popper who would agree with me. The hard sciences (biology, chemisty, and physics) base their work around this logic.

"Worshiping Jesus is pretty much the same as worshiping John Lennon 2000 years from now."

Chlorine, do you _really_ think someone will remember Lennon 2000 years from now?

" ... if there is zero evidence of something existing ... "

Skizziks, are you _really_ saying we've achieved the sum total of knowledge?
Incredibleplum, sorry to stick my nose in. I'm just amazed that someone can use Skiz's statement as a basis for a position.

No worries, FYI. And I agree with what you said earlier. We do have an intrinsic need to belong. If you don't you have a disorder called Schizoid which basically makes you a total hermit.

All you have to do is look at high school kids and the cliques that develop to realize this. That and notice the way even good kids will pick on another kid to avoid being outcasted so they can stay with the group.

Just like how bullying can have this effect, so unfortunately, can organized religion...even if the fundamentals of the religion are good. This can go for ANY organized group that excludes people based on physical or ideological traits. And hence I find danger in groups of organized atheists who would do things like make a billboard. What is it's purpose other than to say to people who are religious, "we're better than you".

The ultimate answer, as you stated, is individual thinking rather than group think, but I don't see that happening anytime soon, either.

Anyone who thinks there is no organized atheism really ought to look again. A quarter century ago I heard a sermon by a member of the Society of Evangelical Agnostics. Ethical Culture has operated forever. Organized atheism doesn't need that name, anymore than Christianity needs to call itself thinkers-with-blinders. Try your google, and you'll find plenty of organized assistance for skeptics and doubters - even if it doesn't proseletyze. herm

I'm an atheist and I think religious people should posess a faith stronger than a billboard slogan.

I've always wondered why people stop believing in things like Santa Claus, The Tooth Fairy, and The Easter Bunny but continue believing that an omnipresent invisible man created the world and is watching you at all times. There is mountains of scientific evidence to discount nearly every story in the bible. Next to that there is another mountain of evidence that shows how nearly all monotheistic religions are all based off of Pagan beliefs and gods that date back to Egyptian times.

Isn't it time some of you grew up?

Well, that's a fairly easy one to respond to, DFIANT---The concept of God obviously has little to do with things like Santa Claus.

After all, you never see someone who has once dismissed the concept of Santa growing up and being coverted to the Merry Old Elf, do you?

But atheists DO switch from time to time, do they not?

"There is mountains of scientific evidence that discounts nearly every story in the Bible..."

This is the way I see it, and the way Christians see it---If Christ indeed rose then every seeming contradiction you can assert can be and will be reconciled at some point.

Now, this is usually where we get hit with something like "Christ did not rise because no one has ever seen anyone do that". That is you mean to say, very literally, no one you know has seen that.

And that, my friend---The testimony of your acquaintances (and I'm sure not even all of them by half)---represents the concrete, suffocating, and rather sad boundaries of your universe.

By the way---I'm not quite sure what "scientific evidence" you are referring to. Archaeology tends to confirm the historicity of the Bible.

If Christ indeed rose then every seeming contradiction you can assert can be and will be reconciled at some point.

Yep. On my website. They saw Orion rising.

Done that search yet, Zed? Or are you going to keep barking from a safe distance?

Archaeology tends to confirm the historicity of the Bible.

But not most of the historicity of what is IN the Bible - including the Jesus character. Watch that side step, Zed.

ALLAH SEZ Kill all non believers infidels must die or convert to islam per the koran. If done in the defence of Allah 70 virgins await..
I dont see anything wrong in religion do you?
Ps there must be a wating line for the 70 virgins due to war shortages.

Religion's aren't fairy tales. They are paranoid, supressive institutions based on fairy tales. Their members are just plain idiots. Some of them are admittedly friendly idiots, but idiots nonetheless. Grendel included, all due respect. Someone tell me please how the story of the ascension is any more beleivable than the story of Old St. Nick and the Night Before Christmas.

"ALLAH SEZ Kill all non believers infidels must die or convert to islam per the koran."

And the Bible says parents can kill children who sass them.

" If done in the defence of Allah 70 virgins await..."

I thought it was 72, or is that the doctrinal difference between sunnies and shitties? I've always wondered if they remain virgins after they're "used," or if heaven is restocked so there are always 70 or 72. If so, what happens to the old ones? More importantly, is it heaven for these virgins too? Do Moslem women strive to achieve this, or is it only heaven for male martyrs and - well - the other place for women?

Expecting that a fatwa will now be issued on me, I gotta ask similar questions of the Christian heaven too. You know: "If the army or the navy ever look on heaven's scenes, they will find the streets are guarded by Ewnited States Marines." Why streets in heaven? Guarded against whom or what? Do you guard the heavenly streets with M-1s? Why? Do you shoot to kill? How? Were the streets always paved with gold or did the gold have to be mined? Was it heaven for the miners? herm

"Archaeology tends to confirm the historicity of the Bible."

Too bad science doesn't.

There's no "organized atheism." Atheists of my acquaintance do not proselytize. They just do not participate in any religious observances.

If someone tries to sell me on religion on my property, I tell them to go away. If I am on their property or on public property, I leave. No fuss, no hassle.

Archaeology isn't science? Beneath you, Danforth.

Oh, and for you, Ray---Arf!

"They saw Orion rising..."

I imagine they did. And eventually they saw Orion arrested by the Jewish authorities. But not before Orion created a number of interesting discourses on the nature of man and human relationships.

Other stellar constellations? Well, let's just say they're less philosophical and more obedient.

"Archaeology isn't science"

Sorry, didn't mean that...I meant it's hard to argue a book is scientifically sound when the first chapter claims bats are birds (they aren't), hares chew their cud (they don't) and the moon is a light (it isn't).

And the rules against shellfish...I realize the men who wrote the Bible didn't know about anaphylactic shock, but shouldn't God have been aware?

"But atheists DO switch from time to time, do they not? "

Only in times of EXTREME stress! ;-)

Realistically, it is difficult to grow up in the US and NOT be inundated with religious (read predominantly christian) images/ thoughts/ mores. I posit that the most ardent believers in christianity would have been ardent believers of - e.g. - islam were they born in that society. Thus I conclude that MOST believers are adherents because their parents (and the majority of their society) were.

Oh, and BTW - who are these SINGLE persons who claim to have a direct line to their god and speak of the exact reasoning behind their gods, etc.?? In another time, era, place ... we would call them 'snake oil salesmen' I warrant.

I believe in Mother Nature, and every time I poke a stubby little striped seed into the ground and it results in a 12foot tall sunflower with more seeds to feed the birds she confirms her existence. I also believe in fairies. But that is just me.

Lost you on the shock thing, Danforth. Please hold forth as you desire. I'm just trying to make a simple and obvious assertion: if you can dig things up they aren't mythical.

"Only in times of extreme stress...."

Not by my observation, although no doubt that happens.

"Archaeology tends to confirm the historicity of the Bible."

Ark?
Resurrection?
90 year old women giving birth?
Jericho?
Sodom and Gomorrah?
Jonah?
For that matter, Moses?

Sure, part of the Bible is "historical". But that's not what your faith is based on. It's based on the magic tricks.

Done that search yet, Zed? Have some fun and go to my website and pick me apart. Woof woof!

Some of them are admittedly friendly idiots, but idiots nonetheless. Grendel included, all due respect.

I don't get offended by what people say on the Retort.

You should know, however, that it is impossible to call someone an idiot "with all due respect."


If you are going to try to be offensive then be offensive and don't backpedal. If you are going to be respectful then be respectful.

Just choose one or the other.

Otherwise, you may sound like an . . .


Cheers

Someone tell me please how the story of the ascension is any more beleivable than the story of Old St. Nick and the Night Before Christmas.

Tell me how one story that is untrue makes an unrelated story also untrue.

Cheers

Grendel

Wrong question. The point is that both stories are just as fantastic.

"It's (Christianity) based on magic tricks...."

Christ actually deals with this directly, at times complaining that people need signs and miracles to know the truth.

My bet is that if Jesus walked up to you today and engaged you in a pleasant face-to-face conversation that he's the Son of God, you'd want to see a few tricks yourself.

In fact, I'm certain of that.

"My bet is that if Jesus walked up to you today and engaged you in a pleasant face-to-face conversation that he's the Son of God, you'd want to see a few tricks yourself."

Personally, if anyone walked up to me claiming he's the Son of God, I'd want some proof.

Grendel

Wrong question. The point is that both stories are just as fantastic.

Ray,

It is not a wrong question. It is a question that points to the fallacious argument present in his statement.

Though in general I disagree with your arguments in regard to religion, I can understand them as arguments.

Pointing to one false story to prove that another unrelated story is also false just doesn't cut it--it is a kind of red herring.

Cheers

"I'd want proof...."

Of course you would. I think the method will be different in the Second Coming, however. My bet is teaching and miracles will be redundant. People will just be permitted to KNOW.

"I think the method will be different in the Second Coming, however."

Well, now you're moving the goalposts.

Ever contemplate the Biblical underpinnings of "2001: A Space Odyssey"?

C'mon Gremdel. You're setting up a false argument.

The story of Christ's resurrection is false because it is too fantastic to be credible. At least the other story was presented as fiction by the author.

C'mon Gremdel. You're setting up a false argument.

The story of Christ's resurrection is false because it is too fantastic to be credible. At least the other story was presented as fiction by the author.

C'mon, Ray.

Don't employ circular logic. Your statement essentially says the story is not believable because it is not believable.


Cheers

Grendel-
It is not believable.

Grendel

Your "circular logic" leaves out a ton of reasons why the resurrection is not credible. If I listed the reasons, it wouldn't be circular anymore.

You never were very good at distinguishing reality from fantasy. I'll leave on that note.

Your "circular logic" leaves out a ton of reasons why the resurrection is not credible. If I listed the reasons, it wouldn't be circular anymore.

You never were very good at distinguishing reality from fantasy. I'll leave on that note.

Ray,

In general I understand how to argue, and I know there are arguments pro and con. The ton of reasons that you allude to may be part of real arguments. What I object to is simple assertions, circular arguments and red herrings offered at real arguments.

You never were very good at distinguishing reality from fantasy. I'll leave on that note.

You are entitled to your opinions. I would offer mine in regard to my assessment of you, but what point would that serve?

Enjoy the rest of the evening.

Cheers

Believe or don't. Jeebus gives you that choice in the Bible. I'm a "don't," actually.