Fourbucks is a pyramid scheme? Surprise, surprise...

Their coffee sucks too. If I wanted to drink sewage, I can find other sources than $5 per cup.

Imagine that. Starbucks will have to pay their supervisors enough so that they won't need to steal the "baristas" tips. I have always thought that restaurands "steal" labor from waitresses/waiters by requiring side work which does not earn them tips yet does use up their time. They don't get paid the normal minimum wage yet while doing side work they can't earn tips. I have know women who worked as waitresses that were forced to do side work almost their entire shifts because of supervisor's who made sure their own personal freinds did well.

Danni,

Again, we agree. Restaurants are a sordid business....

They don't get paid the normal minimum wage yet while doing side work they can't earn tips. I have know women who worked as waitresses that were forced to do side work almost their entire shifts because of supervisor's who made sure their own personal freinds did well.


The last resturant that I worked at, the waitresses had two payscales. One for when the were "on the floor" and one for when they were doing opening or closing duties. It was the fair way to deal with the problem that you mentioned.

That being said, wait staff steal more taxes from the economy than illegals could ever think about. I don't have much sympathy for them making less than minimum wage from the employer while taking home 20-30 bucks an hour.

How low is this?? Next they are going to raid the down's syndrome jars...

"That being said, wait staff steal more taxes from the economy than illegals could ever think about. I don't have much sympathy for them making less than minimum wage from the employer while taking home 20-30 bucks an hour."

They should pay their taxes but I have know quite a few waitresses who were not earning anywhere near 20-30 dollars an hour. If your employer paid you that way either the rules have changed in the past few years or he/she is a better person than lots of others who employ waiters/esses.

That being said, wait staff steal more taxes from the economy than illegals could ever think about. I don't have much sympathy for them making less than minimum wage from the employer while taking home 20-30 bucks an hour.-Manypaths


You are insane if you acually believe that. While it is true that some money is earned off to the side, so to speak, servers have to report every single penny they make on credit card tips and also, in any decent restaraunt, have to claim a cash percentage from their total sales. This money is then taken out of their checks that they earn their usual $3 per hour, depending on what state they are in. Keep in mind that most people these days pay for their dinner with a credit card. Also, if the server has a bad night in cash tips they still have to claim the same percentage on their cash sales.

Also, in many cases they must also pay an extra percentage anytime a credit card is used to cover the restaraunts cost of the credit card machine usuage. I waited tables and bartended for several years and don't even try to tell me servers get over more on taxes than illegals.

Oh, and your comment about no sympathy for them taking home 20 to 30 bucks an hour shows even more of your ignorance. You are the person who goes in and eats a nice meal over a 1 or 2 hour period, gets great service and leaves a 10% tip, if that much. Do your local servers a favor and quit eating out. They're sick of busting their asses waiting on you I promise.

"While it is true that some money is earned off to the side, so to speak, servers have to report every single penny they make on credit card tips and also, in any decent restaraunt, have to claim a cash percentage from their total sales."

So what? That not all of their income, and everyone else has to report and pay taxes on all of their income. Comparatively, they're getting off better.

"This money is then taken out of their checks that they earn their usual $3 per hour, depending on what state they are in."

Horrors!
...oh, wait, that's just like every other worker. Next?

"Keep in mind that most people these days pay for their dinner with a credit card. Also, if the server has a bad night in cash tips they still have to claim the same percentage on their cash sales."

And how much is that reported percentage? 20%? 15%? Try 8%. If you aren't averaging at least 8%, you need to find another job or at the least, another venue.

"Also, in many cases they must also pay an extra percentage anytime a credit card is used to cover the restaraunts cost of the credit card machine usuage."

Nonsense. That cost is borne by the owner, who is breaking the law if he sticks the workers with that bill.

"the person who goes in and eats a nice meal over a 1 or 2 hour period, gets great service and leaves a 10% tip, if that much. Do your local servers a favor and quit eating out. They're sick of busting their asses waiting on you I promise."

Amen! The person to truly watch for: the one saying the whole evening they're going to give you a great tip. They never do.

One more thing, Manywrongs, if servers made $30 an hour, don't you think people would be lining up to be waiters? You sure as hell wouldn't be seeing those "waiters and waitresses wanted" signs everywhere.

You have no idea how hard that job actually is to do. Not to mention the fact that servers have to put up with assholes on a daily basis and do it with a smile. They are on their feet, in many cases, 12 hours a day and can be under a lot of stress depending on where they are working.

When I was 19 I worked at the very first Landry's in Kemah, Texas. There are hundreds now but back then there was one and it was one of the busiest places in the surrounding Houston area. On the weekends I would go in at 8 am to prep all the shit for lunch, then after lunch prep again for dinner. We NEVER stopped moving. You usually had a 4 table station and as soon as one table left another was sat and this went on until closing. You ate on the run, meaning you placed your food somewhere near the exit of the kitchen and grabbed a bite or two when you could. I would get out of there after midnight. On average you would make about $300 for that whole day. That comes to about $18 an hour.

Try to remember that your server is doing it for a living, they are there to help you have a good time and they are NOT having a good time. Maybe you'll tip a little better next time. And it shouldn't even be called a tip, it should be called a service charge. Why do you think most places have an automatic gratuity on tables of 8 or more, sometimes 6. It's so the server doesn't have to bust their ass and end up getting screwed by the people who think that they make $30 an hour.

"So what? That not all of their income, and everyone else has to report and pay taxes on all of their income. Comparatively, they're getting off better."

First of all, he was saying that servers get over on taxes more than illegals. Another case of jumping in the middle of something without knowing the subject. And they claim what they are required to claim by the IRS, so yes they are paying their taxes on all of their income as far as the IRS is concerned.




Horrors!
...oh, wait, that's just like every other worker. Next?

Yeah, no shit. The point is that the money being taken out IS their taxes and it is based on what they had to claim based on their sales.


And how much is that reported percentage? 20%? 15%? Try 8%. If you aren't averaging at least 8%, you need to find another job or at the least, another venue.

No, foolish one, they claim the EXACT tip amount that is left on the credit card. In other words, there's no way to claim that they were tipped less and thus pay less taxes. Damn, I didn't think that would be so hard to understand but I guess for you it was.


Nonsense. That cost is borne by the owner, who is breaking the law if he sticks the workers with that bill.

Trust me, I used to bitch about that to no end and they do it.

Amen! The person to truly watch for: the one saying the whole evening they're going to give you a great tip. They never do.


Either that or they keep telling you how great of a job you're doing. We used to call that the pat on the back tip.

"And it shouldn't even be called a tip, it should be called a service charge. "

Here's a thought: Business owners get to deduct the wages they pay their workers. Restaurants pay waiters & waitresses half minimum wage, and the tips make up the other half and then some.

Shouldn't patrons technically be able to deduct the portion of the tip---used to make up to the minimum---as a wage for a worker?

In other words, everyone else who pays a wage gets to deduct it. Why shouldn't restaurant patrons?

Just in case, Danforth, I'm going to spell it out for you.

Let's say a server works an 8 hour shift and everyone they wait on pays with a credit card. At the end of the day when they close out, they have to claim ever penny that was tipped because it's written on paper. The only exception is when someone pays with credit and then tips with cash and that does happen. Not nearly as much as they would like it to though.

Now, let's say they had all cash payments that day. It's been a while but I believe it's 8% that they have to claim of their total sales of that day. After they tip out the bartenders and bus boys, in many cases they leave with 8%. But, many days it's more and there are some days when it's even less, which is why the IRS came up with the 8% I guess. I'll just say that it's probably a fair amount.

The reason servers are paid $2.50 or $4 an hour is because it is the best way for the IRS to take taxes from the money that they have earned. I mean come on, this is the IRS, do you think that they are going to allow such a huge portion of the work force to get away with not paying their share of taxes?

So, Manypaths, you are very wrong to even imagine that servers pay less taxes than illegals. They pay just like anyone else in the workforce.

Shouldn't patrons technically be able to deduct the portion of the tip---used to make up to the minimum---as a wage for a worker?

In other words, everyone else who pays a wage gets to deduct it. Why shouldn't restaurant patrons?


I never thought of that but it sounds like it makes sense. But that's exactly why it will never happen. Nothing that makes sense ever does happen with the government.

At the same time, that would make the patron a business owner and that could open up a whole new wave of tax implicaions on them, either for or against.

that makes them make them work harder than they can maximize
profits by paying all of them less and hiring less of them
and we all know who they is

"After they tip out the bartenders and bus boys, in many cases they leave with 8%."

Oh, please. On average, waiters are tipped 16-17%. Who gives bartenders half of what they make? And btw, if you're declaring all those tips, your "tip-out" to the bartender is tax-deductible.

"...the IRS came up with the 8% I guess. I'll just say that it's probably a fair amount."

The IRS (technically, Congress) came up with the 8% because they didn't want to screw the poor waitress in the backwater rest stop waiting on folks who think 10% is generous. They're fully aware almost all make more.

"The reason servers are paid $2.50 or $4 an hour is because it is the best way for the IRS to take taxes from the money that they have earned."

Hmmm...not a bad theory.

"After they tip out the bartenders and bus boys, in many cases they leave with 8%."

Oh, please. On average, waiters are tipped 16-17%. Who gives bartenders half of what they make? And btw, if you're declaring all those tips, your "tip-out" to the bartender is tax-deductible.

"...the IRS came up with the 8% I guess. I'll just say that it's probably a fair amount."

The IRS (technically, Congress) came up with the 8% because they didn't want to screw the poor waitress in the backwater rest stop waiting on folks who think 10% is generous. They're fully aware almost all make more.

"The reason servers are paid $2.50 or $4 an hour is because it is the best way for the IRS to take taxes from the money that they have earned."

Hmmm...not a bad theory.

Waitstaff....vote Ron Paul

Danforth, you obviously have never waited tables. And no, the staff doesn't tip the bar half of their tips but they do also tip out bus boys. I HAVE waited tables and I'm telling you that the majority of the time a wsiter does not take home 15% of what they sold. It is usually around 10 or 11% of their sales. I worked in good restaraunts too, not some TGIF.

Why you would attempt to argue this when you haven't waited tables with someone who has I have no idea.

And excuse me, congress came up with the 8%. I know the IRS doesn't create statutes like that. You say that they usually get more than 10% and that is true, but they also get stiffed and left less than 10% which brings their daily avergae below 15%. Like I said, I worked in a nice place but even there it was not uncommon to get stiffed and it certainly was not unusual to get 10% or less.

NO waiter, and I mean no waiter, gets 15% or more on every table they wait on. With the exception of very exclusive places where nothing but rich people go and even there you still have the occassional cheap ass.

I own a small business in CA, although I live in Georgia. California seems to delight in punishing employers. Giving voice, and especially class action status to this idiot while ridiculous, is just sop for the state of California.

Shift supervisors at starbucks still work the counter, and deserve tips as much as anyone else there. Starbucks is a good company to work with, has high ratings from its employees, and is being treated unfairly by both the state of CA and the loser that filed this suit.

"The reason servers are paid $2.50 or $4 an hour is because it is the best way for the IRS to take taxes from the money that they have earned."

Hmmm...not a bad theory.


I wasn't saying it like it was some bad thing. I was explaining where and how waiters taxes are paid. Manypaths, and yourself to an extent, seem to think that they pay less taxes than illegals.

And they didn't do it for the lady at the truck stop, they did it because they understand, or had it explained to them, that servers don't average 15% of their sales for income.

I own a small business in CA, although I live in Georgia. California seems to delight in punishing employers. Giving voice, and especially class action status to this idiot while ridiculous, is just sop for the state of California.

Shift supervisors at starbucks still work the counter, and deserve tips as much as anyone else there. Starbucks is a good company to work with, has high ratings from its employees, and is being treated unfairly by both the state of CA and the loser that filed this suit.

I own a small business in CA, although I live in Georgia. California seems to delight in punishing employers. Giving voice, and especially class action status to this idiot while ridiculous, is just sop for the state of California.

Shift supervisors at starbucks still work the counter, and deserve tips as much as anyone else there. Starbucks is a good company to work with, has high ratings from its employees, and is being treated unfairly by both the state of CA and the loser that filed this suit.

I own a small business in CA, although I live in Georgia. California seems to delight in punishing employers. Giving voice, and especially class action status to this idiot while ridiculous, is just sop for the state of California.

Shift supervisors at starbucks still work the counter, and deserve tips as much as anyone else there. Starbucks is a good company to work with, has high ratings from its employees, and is being treated unfairly by both the state of CA and the loser that filed this suit.

I own a small business in CA, although I live in Georgia. California seems to delight in punishing employers. Giving voice, and especially class action status to this idiot while ridiculous, is just sop for the state of California.

Shift supervisors at starbucks still work the counter, and deserve tips as much as anyone else there. Starbucks is a good company to work with, has high ratings from its employees, and is being treated unfairly by both the state of CA and the loser that filed this suit.

I own a small business in CA, although I live in Georgia. California seems to delight in punishing employers. Giving voice, and especially class action status to this idiot while ridiculous, is just sop for the state of California.

Shift supervisors at starbucks still work the counter, and deserve tips as much as anyone else there. Starbucks is a good company to work with, has high ratings from its employees, and is being treated unfairly by both the state of CA and the loser that filed this suit.

I own a small business in CA, although I live in Georgia. California seems to delight in punishing employers. Giving voice, and especially class action status to this idiot while ridiculous, is just sop for the state of California.

Shift supervisors at starbucks still work the counter, and deserve tips as much as anyone else there. Starbucks is a good company to work with, has high ratings from its employees, and is being treated unfairly by both the state of CA and the loser that filed this suit.

I own a small business in CA, although I live in Georgia. California seems to delight in punishing employers. Giving voice, and especially class action status to this idiot while ridiculous, is just sop for the state of California.

Shift supervisors at starbucks still work the counter, and deserve tips as much as anyone else there. Starbucks is a good company to work with, has high ratings from its employees, and is being treated unfairly by both the state of CA and the loser that filed this suit.

Try hitting the Publish Comment button only once next time...

"I own a small business in CA"

Apparently, NMG_NO owns a small business in CA.
Apparently, NMG_NO owns a small business in CA.
Apparently, NMG_NO owns a small business in CA.
Apparently, NMG_NO owns a small business in CA.
Apparently, NMG_NO owns a small business in CA.
Apparently, NMG_NO owns a small business in CA.
Apparently, NMG_NO owns a small business in CA.

Hans

Apparently, NMG_NO owns a small business in CA.
Apparently, NMG_NO owns a small business in CA.
Apparently, NMG_NO owns a small business in CA.
Apparently, NMG_NO owns a small business in CA.
Apparently, NMG_NO owns a small business in CA.
Apparently, NMG_NO owns a small business in CA.
Apparently, NMG_NO owns a small business in CA.

I know.
I know.
I know.
I know.
I know.
I know.
I know.

Is NMG's 'small business' on two wheels with an umbrella?

It doesn't appear he's smart enough to own anything substantial since he hits the "PUBLISH" button like a lab chimp working for banana chip treats.

I am still waiting for that bestseller--"The Wealthy Waitress."

"Danforth, you obviously have never waited tables."

Bullshit.

"No, foolish one, they claim the EXACT tip amount that is left on the credit card."

Sorry, dumbshit, but you were specifically referring to cash sales.

"NO waiter, and I mean no waiter, gets 15% or more on every table they wait on. "

I didn't say that either. Try a reading comp class.

" I was explaining where and how waiters taxes are paid. Manypaths, and yourself to an extent, seem to think that they pay less taxes than illegals."

Okay, Einstein, let's do the math:

Illegals can only get jobs with fake SS numbers, so they're paying payroll taxes already. That leaves income taxes.

A minimum wage worker in 2007 owed a total of $343 in income taxes on total income of $12,168. We all know some illegals work for less than minimum: one dollar an hour less, and the tax avoidance is a whopping $134.

But let's assume the full $5.85 minimum wage. A middle-class waiter making six bucks a shift in unclaimed tips is avoiding more taxes than an illegal.

A middle-class waiter making six bucks a shift in unclaimed tips is avoiding more taxes than an illegal.

I don't know if it's still an IRS rule, but used to be a waiter was assumed to have made at least 8% in tips and was taxed as if he did whether me made that much or not. So technically, the only unclaimed tips would be those over 8% that were not claimed. That is, of course, if that is still the law.

Question: Does NMG_NO own a small business in California?

NMG_NO;

These losers are just jealous of you.

Okay, Einstein, let's do the math:

Illegals can only get jobs with fake SS numbers, so they're paying payroll taxes already. That leaves income taxes.


Danforth, how old are you? Illegals get work with out ANY fucking paperwork of ANY kind all the time. Hell, I WORK WITH 4 OF THEM!!! They don't have fake bullshit papers.

Dude, quit trying to say that illegals pay more taxes than waiters do in this country. You are starting to sound very fucking stupid.

It is the law, Goatman, and I've been trying to explain to that neanderthal exactly how it works that waiters pay taxes. If you look at my posts you will see that I have explained it in great detail.

Danforth, and I'm about to start calling you dumbass, waiters pay taxes on 8% of their cash sales and taxes on every penny of their credit tips. So, they are actually claiming MORE than the government insist that they do in many cases because of the credit card tips.

Please shut up on this because you haven't been right since you opened your mouth.

SOME illegals have fake SS cards, but not the majority. Do you think the guys you see standing outside of Home Depot or on your local street corner have SS Cards? Please shut up.

"They don't have fake bullshit papers."

So are payroll taxes being withheld or not?

"Dude, quit trying to say that illegals pay more taxes than waiters do in this country."

Who was saying that? I was saying waiters evade more taxes than illegals, and the math bears that out.

Who was saying that? I was saying waiters evade more taxes than illegals, and the math bears that out.

I don't think so. Your math fails to consider that the illegals know how to work the system. They claim a zillion dependents on their W4 and therefore get very little taxes withheld.

"waiters pay taxes on 8% of their cash sales and taxes on every penny of their credit tips. "

Not always. Check out the ATIP program.

"So, they are actually claiming MORE than the government insist that they do in many cases because of the credit card tips."

Bullshit. The government insists they claim every penny they make, just like everyone else. Who's claiming MORE than she makes?

"They claim a zillion dependents on their W4 and therefore get very little taxes withheld."

But that means payroll taxes are being withheld and paid, by some who'll never see a benefit. So that only leaves Federal & state income taxes, which in Texas is (at minimum wage) a whopping $343 to the Feds and exactly ZERO to Texas.

Again: A middle-class waiter who makes six bucks a shift more than they claim in tips is evading more taxes illegally than an illegal making the full minimum wage.

But that means payroll taxes are being withheld and paid, by some who'll never see a benefit.

Very, very little is withheld. As far as them never seeing a benefit? Who are you kidding? Do you think they survive without consuming social services of any type? DOn't they use our roads? Aren't our policeman and FD required to protect them? DOn't we have to pay for their babies being born and stitch them up when they get hurt? Don't we educate their kids?

I was saying waiters evade more taxes than illegals, and the math bears that out.

Posted by Danforth at 2008-03-22 12:48 PM

Wrong. Waiters pay payroll taxes, Medicare and SS and that's taken out of their restaurant paychecks (which pay minimum wage for actual hours worked -- not tips which are separate.) I know. I worked in restaurants for a few years myself going thru school.

Illegals don't get a paycheck in a good number of cases. Los Angeles's "underground economy" (read: off the books money made by illegals) is 40% -- of money made in Los Angeles. That's a chunk! Where do you think the illegals get the money to send $2 billion back to Mexico? It's not because they pay taxes and, if they do pay taxes, it comes nowhere near the cost for social services, etc. they put on the state. Those are proven facts. You may not like it 'cause it's not PC but those are the FACTS.

As for what you make in tips when working at a restaurant?
A waiter must now account for every cent they make as a tip when it's put on a credit card but it's more or less on an "honor system" for a waiter to report his/her cash tips. But there is a "norm" in tips received in each restaurant so pretty much everyone else in the restaurant knows the "average" made. Everyone who works as a waiter knows what stations (certain tables in a restaurant) bring in what kind of money on certain days of the week. Don't forget too -- the waiter also has to shell out part of his/her tips to the bartender and to the busboys.

If you haven't been in the trenches in that biz, don't talk about what you don't know.

"Very, very little is withheld."

What are you talking about? At min wage, or $12,168 a year, they're evading a possible $343 in income taxes. Meanwhile, $930.85 is being withheld from their check in payroll taxes, and the "employer" is paying an additional $930.85 in their half of the FICA taxes.

So...taxes paid: $1,861. Fed income taxes evaded: $343. State income taxes evaded: $0. Percentage of taxes paid to taxes owed: 84%.

How is that "very, very little", especially since it's a flat 7.65%?

Meanwhile, $930.85 is being withheld from their check in payroll taxes, and the "employer" is paying an additional $930.85 in their half of the FICA taxes.

If they aren't paid in cash -- big if, see CC's retort upthread -- much less than $930.85 is withheld when they claim 10 dependents. In fact, if you claim enough and make minimum wage, you will have nothing withheld.

"Waiters pay payroll taxes, Medicare and SS "

I SAID THAT.

"Don't forget too -- the waiter also has to shell out part of his/her tips to the bartender and to the busboys."

That's deductible; a waiter should pay no income taxes on tips to bartenders and busboys.

"If you haven't been in the trenches in that biz"

Can't anybody read today? I've been in the trenches, and I've also helped folks like barristas do their tax returns.

...Now, the criminals in the underground, cash economy...you're right, there. On that subject, I got nuttin'.

How is that "very, very little", especially since it's a flat 7.65%?

That amount is squat and is wiped out completely with the first trip the illegals make to the emergency room which I pay for with my taxes. It's wiped out with the first week of school that I pay for to educate their kids. It's wiped out the first time one of their anchor babies is born here at my expense.

Illegal aliens cost California $9 BILLION last year. Any taxes illegals pay are not even a slight fraction of what they cost my state. Governor Arnie keeps asking Bush to help with the costs since it's a federal issue that Bush is suppose to reimburse us for but Bush has told Governor Arnie and the LEGAL U.S. citizens of California to 'fuck off' and pay it ourselves.

Try reading the L.A. Times every day and read about the fiscal meltdown of this state. We have serious financial problems. You cannot keep importing into a state (California) millions of third world poor who are uneducated and unskilled and work at non or low skilled jobs and need and demand many social services and accomodations and not expect to have your state budget go into meltdown. That is what is happening now.

Curious -- why do you want all the illegals aliens to have a job? So many low income, low skilled AMERICANS are now out of work but you seem so much more concerned about the illegals getting a job than your fellow Americans. Black Americans used to have all the dry wall work here in California. Now the illegals have pushed them out of those jobs and many others. Where's your loyalty -- and to what country?

"much less than $930.85 is withheld when they claim 10 dependents."

NOT TRUE. You're confusing payroll taxes, aka FICA taxes, with income taxes. Putting down 10 dependents, or 100 for that matter, doesn't change the flat 7.65% withheld as payroll taxes one penny.

accomodations -= accommodations

"In fact, if you claim enough and make minimum wage, you will have nothing withheld."

*sigh*

Where do people get these fairy tales?

"Curious -- why do you want all the illegals aliens to have a job? "

GBIOYA. Why do you have to conflate everything with something else? I said one thing and one thing only: waiters evade more income taxes than illegals with fake social security cards. BFD. I have lots of empathy with the illegal problems in LA. I'm very aware of the net drain they have on the California public system. And I'm all for the one true solution to the illegal immigrant problem:

Start deporting the hirers, CEO's down.

does anyone living in ga own a starbucks in ca