This is wrong, on both a gender and religious level. What the hell or those people thinking anyways?

I would hope that Harvard Alumni start withholding money and let's see for how much time they continue with this insanity.

Yes, last thing anyone would want to do is try to accomodate their customers in any sort way.

Especially if they are Muslim.

Remember, freedom isn't free. And freedom of religion does not exist in the right wing world of white christian fundamentalist ideals.

Yes, last thing anyone would want to do is try to accomodate their customers in any sort way.

----

Yea, let's have "White male only" hours and see how that works out.

Title IX?

OMG! Why did I click on that link!

This would never fly if the religious group was a Fundi Christian group rather than Muslim.

This type of accomidation for ANY religious group is wrong. It is the religious group that needs to conform - not the other way around.

Amazing how far liberalism has come. A generation ago, they rightly condemned segregated bus rides and drinking fountains as racist.

Now, they install footwash basins, mandate female-only swimming and workout times, and allow for Islamists--but not Mormons--to practice polygamy, all in the glorious name of multiculturalism.

Good point, RiR.

This the dumbest thing yet to come from a major university. It's sexist against men. Could you imagine if Christians or Jews were to say that they felt uncomforable around Muslims and demanded separate gym hours? Harvard would never go for it. For some sick and twisted reason, everyone is afraid of Muslims. TV shows make fun of Christians and Jews but stay away from Muslims (ala Southpark). Another example of liberalism run amuck.

Men should sue for racial discrination because technically woman can use the gym at all hours but not men at they both pay the same tuition!!!!

Yea, let's have "White male only" hours and see how that works out.


Leave you private fantasies out of this.

Where I live we have women's only workout facitilies everywhere. No big deal.

But lets blow it all out of proportion because they are MUSLIM women.

Leave you private fantasies out of this.

Where I live we have women's only workout facitilies everywhere. No big deal.

But lets blow it all out of proportion because they are MUSLIM women.

----

You're on record as being for sexism then?

"For some sick and twisted reason, everyone is afraid of Muslims. TV shows make fun of Christians and Jews but stay away from Muslims (ala Southpark). Another example of liberalism run amuck.

Posted by utastaff at 2008-03-10 05:33 PM"

What? South Park doesn't make fun of Muslims? As usual, Uta, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Uta: try watching a little movie called Team America.

Tool.

Oh and Harvard caved like pussies. I would have told the Muslims to open their own god damned gym.

Yea, let's have "White male only" hours and see how that works out.

Posted by Pirate at 2008-03-10 01:57 PM

I would rather see the Lesbian Hour...

you people are about to elect a muslim president and you are worrying about gym hours. For christ's sake you need to get your priorities correct. Look at what Harvard turns out as esteemed graduates, for instance-GWB comes to mind among others. And the kicker is you are all going for their shit!
SUCKERS!!!

Oh and Harvard caved like pussies. I would have told the Muslims to open their own god damned gym.
Posted by briwo


Briwo, I agree-wo.

"Where I live we have women's only workout facitilies everywhere. No big deal."

What it comes down to is federal funding and if the college accepts it. After all, Harvard is a private business and they should be able to do what they want.

"Harvard is a private business and they should be able to do what they want."

At first I thought the same thing, but being an educational institution, Harvard is exempt from both federal and state income taxes. While this doesn't make them a "public" institution that is subject to the same constitutional standards, many would argue that it should.

I heard that there was a total of 4 Muslim ladies requesting this. Way to go Harvard, next stop Sharia laws for the country!!

Where I live we have women's only workout facitilies everywhere. No big deal.

But lets blow it all out of proportion because they are MUSLIM women.726


No, let's blow it up because it's a college campus. Do you ever think things thru, 726? There is a huge difference between a private club or workout facility and a PUBLIC school campus. Not to mention that this country has laws against favoring any one religion.

Are we supposed to start making special amends to facilitate Muslims in this country? Hell no. And we shouldn't and don't for any other religion either. But people like you try to make this emotional to confuse the issue. The only issue here is an institution that caters to all religions was trying to make one religion more important than the others.

"While this doesn't make them a "public" institution that is subject to the same constitutional standards, many would argue that it should.

Posted by JOE at 2008-03-10 06:11 PM"

That reasoning would mean that churches should have to comply with gov't law on hiring practices, etc. Are you advocating that? If not, how do you distinguish it?

"Are we supposed to start making special amends to facilitate Muslims in this country? Hell no. And we shouldn't and don't for any other religion either.

Posted by everlong at 2008-03-10 06:12 PM"

We actually make many "special amends" to religion in this country, mostly to Christian religion. Are you against that?

Look at what Harvard turns out as esteemed graduates, for instance-GWB comes to mind among others.-Bushbasher


Hey, dumbass. Bush went to Yale.

Montecore-

I'm not sure how such a standard would work. I just don't see much of a difference between receiving a check from the government versus not having to pay them millions of dollars every year. It's a technical formality with very little substantive difference. The purpose behind it is to promote education in America which could just as easily be done with a check. But it isn't, it's done with the 501(c)(3) exemption instead.

Maybe the government law on hiring practices could be amended to except churches for the obvious reasons you would point out, while still requiring them to pay income taxes. I don't think the government should be in the business of subsidizing any religious organizations, be it through direct funding or "exemptions."

"Hey, dumbass. Bush went to Yale.

Posted by everlong at 2008-03-10 06:15 PM"

Hey dumbass, he went to both.

We actually make many "special amends" to religion in this country, mostly to Christian religion. Are you against that?


Can you tell me one privelege that the christian religion has that the Muslim religion doesn't?

Joe - I agree with you.

i agree this isn't the right route to take, but to compare it to white men hours is a false analogy.

white men don't believe in anything that creates shame in their religion for being viewed by women while working out. muslim women do, and if there's a substantial islamic population at harvard (which i'm assuming there is), and the school wants to protect their interests they should be allowed to do so.

also, not stated in the article, is that this recreational facility is on the outskirts of campus and not often used anyway.

When I said public, refering to harvard I meant in the sense of the people who attend. The facilities there are for their use and, while places like a gym can be reserved for certain times by certain people, they still do not have "ownership" of the place during that time. This attempt by Harvard is essentially barring anyone else from being in the place at those given times and anyone who's ever been on a college campus knows that just isn't possible or feasible.

"Can you tell me one privelege that the christian religion has that the Muslim religion doesn't?"

What a bunch of whining. The Christian religions don't have stupid requirements like forcing women to cover their entire bodies with clothing when men are present. If they did, maybe you'd see places catering to those needs.

The fact is that Christian religions have been watered down over time to allow people to live their daily lives, many as "cafeteria Christians." Hence the lack of need for special rules in public places.

"This attempt by Harvard is essentially barring anyone else from being in the place at those given times and anyone who's ever been on a college campus knows that just isn't possible or feasible."

Two facts you are probably ignoring:

1. The "restriction" on men amounts to 6 hours per week out of 70 hours the gym is open.

2. There are two other campus gyms that have no restrictions whatsoever.

white men don't believe in anything that creates shame in their religion for being viewed by women while working out. muslim women do, and if there's a substantial islamic population at harvard (which i'm assuming there is), and the school wants to protect their interests they should be allowed to do so.


Even if that is the case, are you forgetting that this is America? The minute we start making concessions for someone's religion we are fucked. Practice whatever you want but do it on your own time and if you don't "feel" comfortable being viewed by others then stay the fuck inside or covered up.

What are you guys going to say when Muslims start pushing to be able to pray 5 times a day in public schools because "their religion calls for it"? This whole "my religion" thing is one big scam and they will use it to every advantage they can.

1. The "restriction" on men amounts to 6 hours per week out of 70 hours the gym is open.

2. There are two other campus gyms that have no restrictions whatsoever.

----

The amount of time or the location doesn't matter. This is a restriction placed on one sex and not the other. If there was an equal restriction placed on the other sex, then that would be fair.

"What are you guys going to say when Muslims start pushing to be able to pray 5 times a day in public schools because "their religion calls for it"?"

As long as it isn't forced prayer, who gives a shit? I go to a private university that allows muslims to pray in the library. It doesn't bother me.

This would never fly if the religious group was a Fundi Christian group rather than Muslim.

This type of accomidation for ANY religious group is wrong. It is the religious group that needs to conform - not the other way around.

Posted by captainOface at 2008-03-10 02:58 PM | Reply |

I don't know that I buy that argument. Typically the fundi christians are always after "public" institutions. Harvard would be a "private" institution. In this case, people are free to vote with they're dollars.

"The amount of time or the location doesn't matter."

Yes it does. If there were no other gym for the students to go to, it would amount to more of an inconvenience.

harvard is a private school
not a private school

they can do whatever they want
and i'm sure some rich muslim countries are substancially compensating them.

besides thsi isn't race segregation

in public schools they segregate by gender for sex ed.

this is really no different... they do this to prevent embarrasment

christian, jewish, bhuddist, hindu and athiest, and etc woman i'm sure, are allowed at the all womans hours... and i bet you a lot of them have no problem with this.

I bet you a LOT of woman would rather go to all womans hours of gym because oogling men may not be everyones cup of tea

of course the true nature of hate is displayed by you bloggers

keep hating
your kids will hate too
maybe they'll hate you.

oops
harvard is a private
not a PUBLIC
ie not connected to the government

Two facts you are probably ignoring:

1. The "restriction" on men amounts to 6 hours per week out of 70 hours the gym is open.

2. There are two other campus gyms that have no restrictions whatsoever.


No, I'm not ignoring that at all. I'm simply saying that it's a college campus and to give a group ownership for any amount of time is disciminating against the ones not allowed. Maybe those hours just happen to be the same hours that are best for a group of guys and the gym is more convenient for their schedule as well. Why should that group, whether there is one or not, be denied?

"The Christian religions don't have stupid requirements"

you ever seen a nun

they aren't allowed to have sex

or how bout the catholic church's anti condom policy

the muslim religion is about modesty...

some muslim woman dont' care
but obviously some do on their own accord

harvard going muslim woman wouldn't strike me as being forced to wear what they wear... its their own beliefs

It's a restriction based on gender nonetheless. During that time period, men only have 2 gyms and women have 3.

During the week, men can only work out during 204 hours and women can work out during 210 hours.

boo hoo
woman can have 6 more hours

poor harvard men

looks to me that the men on this board are the whiney bitches

As long as it isn't forced prayer, who gives a shit? I go to a private university that allows muslims to pray in the library. It doesn't bother me.


I meant public schools. And don't think it can't happen. And before you say they can pray when they want anyway, no they can't. They pray at certain times of the day. I work with Muslims and they have a very strict prayer schedule.

"I'm simply saying that it's a college campus and to give a group ownership for any amount of time is disciminating against the ones not allowed"

Give me a fucking break. Does every college campus have to give all students access to all areas at all times? If a school gives their team private use of the basketball court for five hours per week, is that "discrimination" against all the people who aren't on the basketball team?

EXCELLENT POINT JOE

I like the idea of having an off-set of 6 man hours a week. Problem solved, I think.

"before you say they can pray when they want anyway, no they can't."

I wasn't planning on saying that. My point was that it doesn't offend me to see someone praying, and I doubt anyone who attends a public university would see things any differently. In fact, I'd be shocked to learn that a public university didn't allow muslim students to pray according to their religion's requirements.

My guess is that it won't be just muslim women who use the gym during "no men" time. Many women don't like to get the prison stare when they go to the gym.

woman can have 6 more hours

poor harvard men

----

Sexism is sexism.

Discrimination based on sex is discrimination based on sex.

Otherwise, you're just giving lip service to equality.

When do the BoyScouts get to use the gym ?

inch by inch you are becoming an idiot and a whiney baby

If this is the United States of America and We are all about Freedoms. What is the big deal about the Muslim Women having Freedom to be themselves without the interferance of the male of the species for 6 Hours a week. You wouldn't tell Your Woman Spouse that She couldn't have some private tme to Herself now would You?? If the Men have a hissy fit about it tell them o go to the bar or go study while these Muslim Women do their thing in peace.

Larry Mohr

I've got an idea...how about people try to assimilate to American culture and do their religious practices at home?

That used to work pretty well, so why did we change the formula?

welcome to the dhimmi-first century.

dhimmi
cause harvard is a branch of the us government

larry - would you give the same consideration for say...christians? jews?

but then, we don't have the audacity to ask such things.

nanc
first of all its not all muslim hour

its all womans hour

are you anti woman too

damn

"prison stare" - lol.

Nanc-

The policy is for women, not muslims. Any woman can use the gym during this time, and my guess is that the gym will be packed.

jest go take your anti muslim hate somewhere like south kkkarolina

I've got an idea...how about people try to assimilate to American culture and do their religious practices at home?

That used to work pretty well, so why did we change the formula?

Posted by Alexandrite at 2008-03-10 06:52 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag:

I've got an idear. Why did the Europeans make the Natives assimulate to their Christian ways when hey were the ones from the outside coming into what is now America. Pople always claim Why don't so and so conform to Our ways when We drove out and killed the ones who were here FIRST. Funy Dat be.

Larry Mohr

PS For Nanc same goes for Christians and Jews I have no problems with that.

"Can you tell me one privelege that the christian religion has that the Muslim religion doesn't?

Posted by everlong at 2008-03-10 06:18 PM"

Well for starters almost all of their most important holidays magically coincide with gov't holidays.

last time i read up on sharia and dhimmi, i must have missed the all womans gym hour portion.

if it was a fundamentalist state like measure in the image of saudi,

the policy would have been woman don't get to use the gym, its for men only

so obviously your logic is completely flawed

Larry- It's a bit late for me to fix that. Fact of the matter is, the govt has rules about discrimination when they are supplying money to a college.

It's the golden rule of federalism: He who has the gold makes the rules. If Harvard doesn't like it, they can stop taking the money.

Well for starters almost all of their most important holidays magically coincide with gov't holidays.

Posted by mOntecOre at 2008-03-10 06:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

Which is absolutely wrong imho.

alex
harvard doesn't get money from the government

its a private school

I still don't see how it is discrimination to close one gym off to men for 6 hours a week. It's not out of the ordinary for schools to make certain areas available to certain groups at certain times. Any responses to the basketball analogy?

besides the gym is a privelage not a right

harvard doesn't get money from the government


Harvard accepts millions of taxpayer govt dollars for student and research grants. Every single year.

"Which is absolutely wrong imho.

Posted by Alexandrite at 2008-03-10 07:01 PM"

I don't have a problem with it. You may as well cater to the majority on that kind of thing.

do they get grants for their gym??

or all the projects that better america???

what if the cure for cancer comes from a muslim woman in the harvard med program

is it too much for her and her sex to have 6 hours of gym time to themselves??

i don't think so

Any responses to the basketball analogy?

Posted by JOE at 2008-03-10 07:03 PM


you are right Joe... this is much ado about nothing...

It is just too bad they won't allow spectators...

I like to watch sweaty women throw balls around...

i find it hillarious that the people who are typically anti muslim are the ones that are soo pissed about an all womans hour



"Well well well, the most dabolical haters this side of the Mississippi."

"i find it hillarious that the people who are typically anti muslim are the ones that are soo pissed about an all womans hour"

If that's all it was...an isolated incident and all...it wouldn't matter a bit. BUT....


www.express.co.uk

torontosun.com

www.nypost.com

littlegreenfootballs.com

www.telegraph.co.uk

www.theaustralian.news.com.au

www.youtube.com


...and there's LOTS more.

Harvard's bending over and taking one for the team.

I will never respect that place again.

They need to have KKK hour there too. Can't see too well in those robes and other students can use the gym at some other time!

6 hours a week. Big fucking deal. Some people need to get a life. What about the public, not private, school facilities that are used free of charge to groups like the Christian, homo hating Boy Scouts?

"This would never fly if the religious group was a Fundi Christian group rather than Muslim."
This type of accomidation for ANY religious group is wrong. It is the religious group that needs to conform - not the other way around."

Captain, would apply that same statement to all of the private Christian girls and boys schools that we have in this country?

Aren't they doing the same thing Harvard is doing in basing their service on religion and gender?

what if the cure for cancer comes from a muslim woman in the harvard med program

What if it came from a Christian, homo hating boy scout?

I'll bet the person that cleans the showers isn't complaining about the 6 hours paid time off.

6 hours a week. Big fucking deal. Some people need to get a life. What about the public, not private, school facilities that are used free of charge to groups like the Christian, homo hating Boy Scouts?

Posted by nullifidian

F- you, Bill.

Go watch The Black Stallion and then come back and mock the Boy Scouts.

"I go to a private university that allows muslims to pray in the library. It doesn't bother me."

When i was in grad school, a group of Muslims use to sit in a corner and shout their prayers as loud as they could, and did not give two craps at who they bothered. The didn't give a shit about the libraries policy of "Silence". Ever since, I do care whenever their prayers disrupt public places. I have nothing against their right to their religion, just don't force me to allow them special considerations....

"Go watch The Black Stallion and then come back and mock the Boy Scouts."

What's your point, Jeff? All I said if the Boy Scouts can be accomodated, why not Muslims?

And what is "the Black Stallion?" The object of your fantasies, a black gay porn movie? And what in the fuck does that have to do with anything?

It's not out of the ordinary for schools to make certain areas available to certain groups at certain times. Any responses to the basketball analogy?

----

The basketball analogy doesn't work because it's not based on gender. If you were to say that the women's basketball team could have exclusive use of the court for 6 hours a week when the guys could not, then it would be a good analogy.

If they want to do a women's only time, that's fine so long as there is an equal men's only time.

If there was a business that had 3 stores and one store denied women access to it for a few hours, what do you think the reaction would be?

I would have shoved a 12lb pork loin up the chicks snatch and kicked 2lbs of pork sausage up the dude's dickhole. You're nothing but an appeasing little pussy "davethewave".
Sincerely,
Franklin Cotton

And what is "the Black Stallion?" The object of your fantasies, a black gay porn movie?

Who is the homo hater?

geez, leave the boy scouts out of this Nulli.

Eberly, you're an idiot. I was supporting the Boy Scouts using public facilities, even though I disagree with their policies, you dipshit.

It's called an "analogy," Beverly.

"6 hours a week. Big fucking deal" Why don't you giv up 6 hrs of your freedom a week and see how much you like it?
And how are the boy scouts accomodated? They are sued every other month by the ACLU.

I was supporting the Boy Scouts using public facilities, even though I disagree with their policies, you dipshit.

Yeah, I know Nulli. I just love to watch your anger in action.

Nobody is giving up 6 hours a freedom, you friggin' idiot. If this wasn't Muslims, but a Christian group you wouldn't give it a second thought.

In other words, you're just trolling, eh Eberly?

Bill? Come on man. There's no excuse for that type of error. It happens though.

you guys are arguing about something that affects college students

and not just any good ole state school college

the richest, elitest, 45% international student population, hah vahd students

such fools hahahahhahahhahah

this affects you all how???

my freedoms are being impended because the future dictator of new flambiabiqueistan can't use the gym for 6 hours :-P

"If this wasn't Muslims, but a Christian group you wouldn't give it a second thought." Why don't you just admit you have no idea what I would think dumbass? If the University will give up all federal funding they can do whatever they like. The people that can't work out except for those hours are loosing their freedom to exercise. Why don't you admit if it were a group of Christians you would be first in line against this rule?

dalton

you think 6 hours of gym time is worth the reseach money given to one of the greatest think tanks in the world

you really want to fuck over america that much that you would rather have canada come up with the next cure for cancer, or the answer to space travel

america hater

"Why don't you admit if it were a group of Christians you would be first in line against this rule?"

You moron, learn to read. I just stated I didn't have a problem with the BSA, a Christian group, using public facilities. Why are you such a hater?

This really is based on religion, it's based on gender.

"you think 6 hours of gym time is worth the reseach money given to one of the greatest think tanks in the world" What do you think waterboarding a few goat herders is worth having the greatest country destroyed? I just think we should not take a institution that receives federal funding and allow them the power to subvert freedom.

You also assumed I would not have a problem if this were a Christian group. Would you think it's ok for Christian women to say I don't want to work out w/ Islamofascist. Why can't they just come here and get there education and join in w/ the rest of the groups. I just don't like the idea of a University giving special treatment to any group. Where does it end?

dalton you sound like a moron really
read your own posts

wow

"Would you think it's ok for Christian women to say I don't want to work out w/ Islamofascist."

tell us how you really feel about 1/5th of the world population... genius. america with you at helm would crash.

tell us how you really feel about 1/5th of the world population... genius. america with you at helm would crash.

POSTED BY KLIFFERD AT 2008-03-10 09:53 PM | REPLY |

Hold on, let me check out how many dumps I have and I may be right back...

"I just don't like the idea of a University giving special treatment to any group."

i guess they should just take the gym totally away

thats special treatment to those that want to stay fit...

how bout all those college groups they have, the asian club, the irish club, the sororities and the frats... no special treatment

oh and the football scholarships, the basketball scholarships... special treatment for athletes... too bad next nfl start, you can't do this no more. no more final four.

dumb dumb dumb

101 i know your a hater

but your just looking for people to laugh at you

yer like old vader, there is good in you ;)

"I just don't like the idea of a University giving special treatment to any group. "

Give me a break. You don't sound like you've ever spent any time at a University. There are hundreds of groups, clubs, etc., that use facilities for their meetings, events, etc. It's not special treatment. It's called tolerance, a concept you apparently never heard of. It's what a University is supposed to be about.

Interesting, though, when you think about it. Larry Summers was dismissed as president of Harvard for having the audacity to note the fact that women were unrepresented in the hard sciences. It goes against more than 20 years of feminist dogma to suggest that women are in any way different from--let alone need the protection of--men. Thus, coed dorms. Thus, Title IX.

Comes now some Muslims, who are turning militant feminism on its head, and demanding that they be treated differently, even deferentially, because they're women. And Harvard's famously pro-feminist administration doesn't have the slightest idea of what to do: multiculturalism and feminism are at odds, one must lose, and not a single uptight conservative to blame.

its funny how the rhr boy can in one website both call

islam opressive to woman
and then go on and state
"some Muslims, who are turning militant feminism on its head"

make up your mind
is islam over oppressive to woman or over empowering to woman

klif,
There are too many of you for me to believe that if you wanted fanatics out of your religion that they wouldn't be out of your religion and out in the open for us to snipe.

It's beyond the realm of believability to think there are just a few bad apples.

Quiffered, you really are stupid. The reason they have the gym is to improve the lifestyle of the students that want to work out. You know any student that chooses. What about the students that can only work out during that time?

Dullifidian, I spent my fair share of time in college. It was a private school. I have no problem w/ tolerance. Those groups contribute to the overall education experience for the University. There is a differenc between allowing groups to get together and banning everyone else from a facility.

You know what they say 101. It only takes one bad apple to rot the whole group.

No, Islam isn't oppressive to its women. Between walking around in the hot sun covered from head to toe in black wool on the way to the clitorectomy clinic and being locked inside a burning building to die rather than run out into the public streets uncovered--nah. What woman wouldn't gladly choose a life like that? Fifty lashes for being the victim of a rape? Death for alleged adultery, while the man walks around free as a bird? Don't be silly.

But given the choice of taking sides with the so-called "Women of Cover" or "womyn who need men like fish need a bicycle", I don't even give a damn. I just find it all very amusing.

Harvard is Private and they can do whatever they please.

Harvard is not only allowing Muslim woman, all women, just not men. The best solution is having 6 hours for men only, 6 hours for women only and the rest co-ed. Of course then your going to have the gender confused wanting to attend the other sexes time...but thats for another thread. :)

I was up in the air about this until Joe made the point about the basketball team having private use of facilities.

If this was segregation based on religion it would be one thing but its not. Its simply providing a service to the students. Now if no one shows up to the gym and they continue to do it....thats stupid.

As long as the "traffic" in the gym is sufficient, I don't think it that big of a deal.

RIR,

I like you found your muse quite interesting and to the point.

However, these women at harvard are being oppressed? Seems they are doing quite well and infact have convinced one of the highest educational institutions in our land to allow them to work out with such oppression.

From a article I just googled. "Six individuals out of 6,000 [students] complain," Smerconish told Lauer. "Those six had access [to the campus gyms] and Harvard's response is to institute a discriminatory practice where now half are closed out of the gym."

Six people?

There is a differenc between allowing groups to get together and banning everyone else from a facility.

Yes, I quite agree.

I wonder, during this time are there no male employees or are they not allowed to work during this time?

"I was up in the air about this until Joe made the point about the basketball team having private use of facilities."
The differenc might be that the basketball program brings in money to the school. They also have time for men and women. And anyone is free to try out if they like.

Dalton,

I don't see any link so you certainly didn't dream you posted it.

They also have time for men and women.

*****
So does the GYM.

However, these women at harvard are being oppressed? Seems they are doing quite well and infact have convinced one of the highest educational institutions in our land to allow them to work out with such oppression.

Posted by moneywar
* * * *

BINGO. It's hard for me to muster any kind of sympathy as to any kind of alleged oppression, from someone sitting in the world's premier university, an education from which costs upwards of a quarter of a million dollars.

The Islamic world--and, sorry to say, most of the rest of it-- has sat still for years, while gays in Afghanistan were put up against the wall. While young girls had their clitorises snipped by Islamic "holy men". While women are accused of a crime, and cannot call other women to testify on their behalf. While men are free to rape and sodomize, while their female victims are severely punished for "being alone with a man". But, as usual, once the Islamists hit our shores, they master the two greatest pathologies of liberalism: selective outrage, and victimization. Maybe if the Muslims were more caring of their women in Islamic countries, I would be more sympathetic to their concerns at Harvard. But they're not, so I'm not. And as long as Islamic men treat their women like second-class citizens--and the women go along--why should it be any different in Boston?

No money in your haste you did not read very well. I never said I posted a link. I just copy and pasted the section of the article that provided the number of women that the University is accomodating.

Dud you always overdramatize every persons statement. Not one time that I have seen anyone mention Alqueda or Sharia law. Just the fact that 6 women think they are some how special and that they should receive their own special time.

I see the next argument now. What times are the women only hours? Prime hours or off hours?

I think the hours really should be driven by the popularity of the single sex workout times.

Who knows maybe single sex hours will see increased use? I think if you take the "muslim" factor out you see this is not a big deal.

If they try out the single sex hours and gym usage drops significantly during the hours I think it should be re-visited.

Look at this practically. Maximize use of the gym at all hours of operation. If you can increase use with single sex workout periods I think its a good idea. If its just to make 6 people comfortable...than I think its a stupid idea.

Captain you sure know a lot about single sex?

How lonely do you have to be to be a Canadian spending this much time on a message board discussing US politics? On top of that, the retard actually wastes his time talking in the 3rd person.
If he's not on a watch list of some kind then I've lost all respect for the Canadians. Come clean, when does your ankle bracelet come off you creepy fuck?

My whole deal is the gender factor.

If women were denied use for the 6 hours, my prediction is there were cries of outrage over sexism.

If the men are denied, it's no big deal.

I think there's a double standard when it comes to gender inequality.

dalton - I went to an all boys boarding school.

(I know you meant that as a pejorative and I know I just made it worse)

I gave a speech at Harvard last fall, and was amazed at how beautiful it was. When I was young, I lived in Boston, but don't remember it much. It really is an amazing campus, and even a barnacle-encrusted knuckle-dragging conservative like myself really did admire the history and the tradition of the place, even though it is one of the most liberal campuses on earth.

Which is why this debate is a little mystifying to me. Every campus I've ever been to has classes that are pretty much women-only. It never occurred to me to ask if men could attend the aerobics or spinning classes, for example--there just were never any guys there. So the idea that these women feel they can't exercise without men present is kind of silly.

No, the same radical view of Islam that says that men and women can't exercise together is the same that says women can't be allowed to attend school at all. Not allowed to read. Either you reject this silliness, or you do not. But it seems to me like you shouldn't be able to cherry-pick only the parts of Islam that are most beneficial to you personally, then expect the faculty of Harvard to go along. But, these Islamic girls knew Harvard better than I do. Obviously. They got what they wanted, and used their gender and religion to get it. Which is what I thought Harvard wasn't about these days.

I was just yanking your chain captain. I thought your post was reasonable. I just saw a lot of "single sex" and could not resist. Just to let you know the hours are "Since Feb. 4, the Quadrangle Recreational Athletic Center at the Ivy League school has been open only to women from 8-10 a.m. Tuesdays and Thursdays and 3-5 p.m. on Mondays"

RightisRight-
It's interesting that Muslim "girls" pushed for this. Perhaps you are in a position to teach them how "girls" should behave.

Boyd's here everyone!

How do you keep track of the names and passwords? Does your wife help or is she too busy traveling to DC to meet clients??

Your obsession is more than enough information: Won't argue the point, brings in imaginary opponents to attack personally...

Textbook pile of petty bullshit from a sphincter(watch your step).

As a European now settled very happily in the USA I am very concerned when I see US authorities give in to demands from Muslim groups who want special treatment. The grounds are always the same, that they are "only" exercising their freedom of religion. The results are always the same: more demands to further seperate themselves from having to integrate here. They use our very freedoms against us, cherry-picking the legislature to achieve small step by step victories. In Europe, the suicidal multi-cultural policies have allowed Muslims to demand more and more special treatment to the extent now that their desire to live under Sharia is both mainstream and openly acknoweldged. We now have Muslims girls, excused from sports and swimming at schools, Muslim prisoners with their own bathroom facilities and special diets, Interest free loans for Muslims only at specially accredited banks, polygamy now recognised officially, allowing husbands to claim welfare for their multiple wives. At major European airports Immigration officers are no longer allowed to demand that a Muslim remove their face veil to confirm passport photo ID. (Now the person is taken to a private room, where female only Immigration officers ONLY are allowed to see the person's face) The list of appeasements that Europe has tragically made are too long to list here. Needless to say Europe is now feeling the repercussions of such actions. Islamic practices that are abhorrent to Western democracies are now being seen on a wide scale in Europe: young Muslim girls have been found to have had their vagina's mutialated (female circumcision - widely practised in African Islamic countries) Muslim ladies who have not agreed to an arranged marriage or God forbid have fallen in love with an infidel, have been murdered by their own families and friends because they have brought "disgrace" to their family. All in the name of Allah.
It is one thing for the Muslim ladies at Harvard to say they consider it inappropiate for a female Muslim to exercise in the company of men (lest they stir up uncontrollable lust!) it is however completely ridiculous for the "infidels" to agree with such a backward concept and comply with this request. Beware the scourge and fatal combination of political correctness and multi-culturalism.
Rise up and protest it wherever you find it or USA could end up in the same mess as Europe.

I gave a speech at Harvard last fall,

Oh, you must be some body.

Now you just went from one end of the spec to the other.

I for the most part agree with most of your posting but a bit got convoluted when the men, oppression and women going along with it entered the rant.

The women allow themselves and agree to wearing the stupid garb.

The women allow themselves and agree to being sub-prime to the men.

Burning at the wall, shot, is all allowed and agreed to by those people.

I just don't understand but yet I really do, these women are probably from some rich rich foreign land who give millions to the school so they are catered to for the money, the question here is whether the educational institute is reduce because of their willingness to go after money.

Boyd,
I'll answer your question if you answer mine..

Why do you continually change names and lie about it?

Also, why did you claim to be leaving for ever only to come back under at least 5 different handles and lie about that fact every time?

Does your wife know you are cruising for hookers online?

a good question for this story would be......do they count transgenders and cross dressers as female??? by having these people in the gym does it effect the muslim religion.... and will they be allowed to have 6 hours too

This is BS--it is for their religion first and foremost. No other religions get a special hour to exercise.

CJ is right on his post.

And another thing--what friggin holidays are you guys talking about where Christians dictate?

If you refer to Christmas--well Yeah!

Start at the beginning of the year for gov't holidays--

New Years--Not a Christian Holiday
MLK Day--Not
Groundhog Day--oops..
President's Day--Not
Easter--which has been changed to Spring Break--ok
Memorial Day--Not
July 4th--Not
Labor Day--Not
Veterans Day--Not
Thanksgiving--Not
Christmas--Yes..

Want to revise your statement about Christians holidays running along side gov't holidays?

Murphy

Boyd?
Are you thinking up another handle and password? Man, the pickins' have to be slim by now huh home skillet?

I say there's a way to end all this intrusion of religion:

We need to declare the United States as a land equally respectful of all religions. Once that's done, we need to outlaw everything prohibited by each of the major faiths. Want whiskey? You can't have it, because that's against Islam. Want bacon or sausage at breakfast? Islam again, plus the Jews. All women must be covered head to toe. All men are prohibited from shaving their beards, plus they gotta shave their crotches. No movies, magazines, newspapers or TV or Internet- graven image time, and that's a no-no for several major faiths. No credit cards, because that's usury. There's a long list of other things, but you get the picture- if we're going to allow religions to dictate life for everyone, then hey, let's do it right.

I figure two weeks of this, and the real people of this world would tell ALL the religiosos to go fuck themselves. And make it stick.

Money,
I didn't really give a speech. I was on a panel--I made some introductory remarks (we all did), and we had a debate of sorts, and took some questions from the audience. Had a great time, but felt somewhat out of my depth for some of it. A few of the questions centered on the day-to-day operations of hedge fund trading (I think some of the students were hoping to work for the hedge fund operators) and on that stuff I had no idea.

Got a great Harvard sweatshirt out of the deal too. Big and fluffy and very, very warm. Somehow, I look more intelligent when I wear it, even when I'm working out. Which is the biggest tragedy of all, that these Muslim babes won't be able to catch me lifting or running in my cool Harvard sweatshirt, on account of their devout Islam. Their loss.

"If they want to do a women's only time, that's fine so long as there is an equal men's only time."

Does anyone even want men's only time? Did anyone at Harvard ask for men's only time? Have you ever wanted to go to the gym and have "men only" time?

You fucking whiners need to get a life. If nobody ever asked for the "balancing element" of men's only time in the first place, don't sit there and bitch that it doesn't exist. Women's only time exists because women asked for it. Ever hear of the free market? Create the demand.

I wonder what they'll be wearing... the hajib, the burkha, the abaya, the niqab or will it be the jilbab or a plain sports bra? Will they work out with strong uvulating or simple groaning?
I wanna know.

Any "religion" that requires FIVE ritualized prayers a day is fanatical.

This kowtowing to the "religion" of exploding body pieces is getting ridiculous.

Great,lets kowtow to the HEADCHOPPERS!

Does anyone even want men's only time? Did anyone at Harvard ask for men's only time? Have you ever wanted to go to the gym and have "men only" time?

You fucking whiners need to get a life. If nobody ever asked for the "balancing element" of men's only time in the first place, don't sit there and bitch that it doesn't exist. Women's only time exists because women asked for it. Ever hear of the free market? Create the demand.

Posted by JOE at 2008-03-10 11:44 PM


Fair point, Joe.

For some reason I suspect that any guy requesting 'men only' time would be given the Larry Summers treatment.

Also, I think these young women would have been given the cold shoulder had they requested women only time in accordance with some adherence to Christianity.

Leftists are very selective in their accomodations.

Just an interesting observation.

Does it not strike people odd that the muslim women when they come to this country hold strong to their religious convictions while the men throw all that conviction out the door and run rampant free for all chasing women and drinking like mad dogs when they are here.

Is it the women who are really keeping the religion strong and alive?

Yav,

I agree with you but only because it is Harvard. If it was a normal university in normal U.S.A. I could possibly see such going on.

If they can afford going to Harvard, they can afford paying going to an all girls gym.

working out in a hijab or pants and shirts are very hard...thus the womans only time

are you denying these woman the right to cover themselves up??

they want a womans only time so they don't have to restrict themselves

you sound like a bunch of sexual predators

you have the right to yer body in the country, just not at the college gym which is paid for by these girls as much as any other student.

its rediculous

you can't cover up in MY country. take your clothes off woman. we only claim to have sexual freedom

but gays can't marry, woman should be half naked, and men can prance around in 3 piece business suits in the middle of summer

Klifferd...you ol' jihadist prick you. What kind of "special" consideration for our little Muslim friends are you promoting today? Maybe you're worried about the female Muslim doctors who don't want to bare their arms to scrub prior to surgery? Sounds reasonable to me...right? Maybe you would allow one of them to to do some surgery on your hemmorhoids?

Speaking to all the post about women getting =stared at in the gym:

I work out fairly regularly at SIU here in IL. If you think women dont eyeball a fit athlecit guy in a muscle shirt and shorts while he works out, your a in full blown fantasy land, SOme of the women at the gym would like to "assault" me at times I think by the way they look at me.. Wink WInk know what i mean. We are not all that diffrent Men and Women.

the hijab and burkka are offensive when you get into the history behind them. I had a friend try to break it down for me once and was left with my jaw on the floor. Abarently its the Womens fault that their bodies turn Men on and they have to cover themselves because a Man connot control his lust around a uncovered woman. Amazingly Old School. Like 600 A.D. OLD SCHOOL.

I think the objection is to the notion of dividing us into factions because apparently we can not get along. Apparently, women and men can't use the gym at the same time. Really? Is it really that impossible to get along and share a gym?

The problem is, once give special treatment to one group, you are obliged to give it to others, and then there are practical issues.

The strategy of divide and conquer has been used by unscrupulous politicians to get things done that the majority of people don't want. It leads to unhealthy politics. The most recent practitioners of this have been the Left, which couldn't get any of their inititatives agreed to when voted on, so they simply went around the process and got he Supreme Court to do it over the objections of the majority.

In so doing, the Court fragmented us into an endless series of special-interest groups, and we have lost cohesion to the point that we have been unable to address big issues (social security, taxes, lobbyists) as a people, but we simply fight over everything because we all hate each other now, having fought for so long.

We can't even agree to fight murderous terrorists who send retarded women and children to blow up innocent bystanders! This environment is great for opportunists (lobbyists, Al Sharpton, Elliot Spitzer, Jerry Fallwell), but is not a healthy viewpoint for a country to take.

Ironically, it's about to rip the Democratic Party, whose main agenda in the last 40 years has been to divide, into halves. The blacks and youngsters are going with Obama (at least until he's effectively painted as a crook), and the old women will go with Hillary, and they'll both lose to McCain, who really doesn't have a history of making effictive policies.

So, this little episode at the epicenter of elitism is just another sign that our fragmentation has reached a routine and unhealthy stage where people can't even avoid it while trying to play basketball...

Create the demand.

----

Like this case? All of 6 women. That demand is too strong for the market to ignore.

jest
i'm a jihadist?
when you are the ones using the explicitives on me

doesnt' jihad in the american christian dictionary mean holy war

how is womans time equate to holy war??

its not muslim time
nor should there be muslim only time at the gym

if a doctor doesn't want to wash her hands, then she shouldn't be a doctor

the logic of woman only time makes sense

if you want a mens only time
i have no problem with that
if there a bunch of men that thougth woman looking at their bodies, like gottruth has, are offended, or are in some way uncomfortable doing it, then thats cool with me

if a homeless muslim person asked for a soup kitchen before a homeless non muslim, would that also be jihad... just cause the muslim girls that are so called oldschool ask for it, they are jihadists in your eyes

so muslims should shut up... i don't think thats going to happen.

jonryker

why do we have single sex bathrooms

can't we all just get along

why are we divided?

"Like this case? All of 6 women. That demand is too strong for the market to ignore."

6 people asked

if only 6 woman attend all womans hour then yes
there is no demand stop it

but if its packed! at womans only time
there is a demand right

only 6 girls asked
but they had the gaul to ask.

how bout the girls get in free time at the bar

why do the girls get get in for free?

besides the gym is a privelage not a right

Posted by klifferd at 2008-03-10 07:06 PM | Reply | Flag:



That all students pay for with "activity fees" or whatever they call it at harvard...and they all pay the same amount....so should have equal access.


to the basketball team analogy....

when I was in college they had intramural games, group game scrimmage game times....all sorts of activities that closed the gym off to the general population of students...BUT...anyone was welcome to sign up to be part of those groups....Just as anyone was welcome to try out for the basketball team that you used in your analogy. I can't say for certain that if you break down all the Mens intramural times vs the Womens intramural times it would be even....but it should be

were your analogy breaks down....the men can't sign up to be part of the Women, and therefore don't have any access to this blocked period of time, every other time the school's facilities are used, and only certain members are allowed...at some point every student had the ability to be in that "club" either through applying to join, earning the grades to be in that honor group....etc.

the men can't sign up to be part of the Women

sure they can

its call hormone therapy
and transgender

it is enough of an issue that law and order did an episode about it.

in san francisco
transgender, are considered the sex they converted too, not the one they came from.

how bout getting rid of single sex locker rooms in the gym too

oh and the fact that men get urinals

why are we making accomodations for men to piss easily in these single sex bathrooms

why don't woman get too.

not only that
but "The policy only applies to one gym, a facility mainly used for intramurals. Because of its location at the edge of campus, it is the university's least used gym, Mitchell said."

its not even the main gym

its the extra gym

Even the most conservative reading of classical Sharia reveals that Eunuchs were allowed to wander freely through the harem. In other words, a known homosexual man who has never had sex with a woman and never will, can make a powerful case under Sharia that he cannot be excluded from the gym hours. (Someone should try this just for fun -- lets see if Harvard sets up an Islamic law tribunal!).

if i was a "jihadist" i would find this offensive

but i'm down with this

it should be woman, and eunics only
that would be fine too
but would those woman who were raped and/or abused and use the womans only time as well, how would they feel?

dude the long Urinals that strech all the way to the floor ARE for the women.

jest
there is a difference in allowing known terrorist groups into america

and allowing all womans hour at the gym

i am against allowing hezbolla into america

if a hezbolla cell moved next door to me
i would call the fbi

but all womans hour is not equated to terrorism

if you think it is you are a retard

i don't think you are retarded so stop with the mile long stretches

"but all womans hour is not equated to terrorism"

Didn't some Muslim once say something about allowing the camel to get his nose in the tent? In some places here in the U.S., and all over Europe, the camel already has his whole head and neck in the tent.

all womans hour equates to camels in tents??

again with the stretch
this one might actually be over a mile

i have been to europe and the muslims in europe are more like the african americans in america

segregated and ghettofied
with poor housing and low job rates

nothing like america

america is wonderful because we have delt with immigrating peoples much better

we accomodate where we feel its right and we fight when its wrong
and all womans hour is not the same as riots on the streets france.

jest people like you want america to treat muslims the way europe does

personally europe fucked up badly
and america is the better in this regard

just to note, the african americans plight in america comes from our fuck up on slavery... they aren't immigrants

so your telling me
that you allow an all womans hour now

and then it will be an all womans day

then one day it will be an all womans gym

then without notice

all 3 of harvards gyms will be for woman only

and the men will just be sitting there fat and useless

Watch out for that camel, KLIFFERD, he's got more than his nose in the tent.

your still stretching
very very far

all womans hour
not all muslim hour
not muslis are not allowed their human rights

thats england

not america

personally as a first generation american, with immigrant parents, i feel that english SHOULD be forced down the throats of immigrants, its not a human rights violation to speak english

but all womans hour doesn't offend me
if you want an all mens hour to balance this so be it... again your arguments about hezbolla in america, and a pissed off white brit are super stretch arm strong

jest there are all christian universities

reagent.edu

and i am against all muslim gyms, especially at college.

"all womans hour
not all muslim hour"

Who started this thing, KLIFFERD? MUSLIM women, not just "women." You keep wanting to avoid that little fact, but it is the camel's NOSE.

The ugly women need time to work out too fellas. Not all chicks are hot and don't mind being seen.

jest

it doesnt' matter who started it
are muslim woman not allowed to fight for their sex?? just because they are woman

if i as a muslim man asked for hmm lets say, cheaper gas prices... am i the camel's nose

"jest there are all christian universities"

Harvard isn't one of them. Neither is it a Muslim university....yet!

bigjohn

haha exactly

"if i as a muslim man asked for hmm lets say, cheaper gas prices... am i the camel's nose"

This is way too hard for you, KLIFFERD. I gotta go. Maybe Buffalo_Bob can explain it to you. He does all the difficult concept explaining on here.

when they make it muslim only anything at harvard

then i'll fight along your side

"when they make it muslim only anything at harvard"

Well, then, you need to get your ass on over to Normandale Community College. The camel is all the way into the tent.


"Last week, I visited a Muslim place of worship. A schedule for Islam's five daily prayers was posted at the entrance, near a sign requesting that shoes be removed. Inside, a barrier divided men's and women's prayer space, an arrow informed worshippers of the direction of Mecca, and literature urged women to cover their faces.

Sound like a mosque?

The place I'm describing is the "meditation room" at Normandale Community College, a 9,200-student public institution in Bloomington.

Until recently, the room was the school's only usable racquetball court. College administrators converted the court into a meditation room when construction forced closure of the previous meditation room.

A row of chest-high barriers splits the room into sex-segregated sections. In the smaller, enclosed area for women sits a pile of shawls and head-coverings. Literature titled "Hijaab [covering] and Modesty" was prominently placed there, instructing women on proper Islamic behavior.

They should cover their faces and stay at home, it said, and their speech should not "be such that it is heard."

"Enter into Islaam completely and accept all the rulings of Islaam," the tract read in part. "It should not be that you accept what entertains your desires and leave what opposes your desires; this is from the manners of the Jews."

"[T]he Jews and the Christians" are described as "the enemies of Allaah's religion." The document adds: "Remember that you will never succeed while you follow these people."

I have to wonder what your reaction would be to them having a white Christian women only gym class

jest
what you say is wrong about that university

and they should get a mosque or rent a room somewhere and do this on their own time

college money should not be spent building temples for ANY religion.

i mean the college is wrong
not you

yes america is better then iran

or do you want to sink to their level?

When I was in the Navy, we had a group of Saudis sail with us for a while in 1979. I guess their religion says they can't see each others' pee pees or something because they monopolized the head one person at a time while they showered. It took about 2 hours to get those fuckers through before the Americans could all get in there and take our showers. Then there was some sort of nonesense that they couldn't eat until after the sun set or some such shit, so the whole crew had to wait for sunset to eat. Also, we had to make our day off on Friday instead of Sunday since that was their religion. That didn't really matter to me, but it pissed off the Christians.

It really pissed us off that we 250 or so, on an American ship, had to conform to those 10.

There was something humorous, though. They would go to the secondary con to do their praying on the rug BS. The went there because there was a compass rose repeater and they could determine which way was Mecca. If the ship changed course, they all start jabbering in that strange tongue and they'd all get this worried look on their face and shuffle around on their hands and knees trying to re-orient themselves. We used to watch from the top of the helo hangar. It was hilarious. I got pictures of it.

goatman

thats you being duped by the saudis

thats not what islam says
the peepee thing is made up
the eating after sunset is made up

plus when your on a voyage like on a ship islam frees you from the burdens of prayer.

No Kliff...but you must be aware of the lefty and the ACLU agenda...with intimidation by lawsuit... to wipe all things religious and gender related from schools, clubs and organizations.
If you can or will admit that...then you should see the problem .

Kilff, isn't that a Ramadan thing (ie not made up)?

I agree though that the Saudi's practice some of their own 'special' Islamic stuff, though there is support in the Koran for some of the nonsense.

thats you being duped by the saudis

thats not what islam says
the peepee thing is made up
the eating after sunset is made up

plus when your on a voyage like on a ship islam frees you from the burdens of prayer.

I'm just telling you what happened. If it was not a religious thing, then they are even bigger assholes than I thought for deliberately "duping" us and disrupting our shipboard routine and making people go to bed later by making them wait on showers, eat at odd times, etc.

the men can't sign up to be part of the Women

sure they can

its call hormone therapy
and transgender

?????

Are you friggin' kidding me Kliffered?

That's truly your best argument to my point?



I think I can safely say we are done here.

"When I was in the Navy, we had a group of Saudis sail with us for a while in 1979."

I'm retired navy and was working for the Saudi Navy Expansion Program (SNEP) at the Amphibious Base Little Creek, Norfolk, VA, during that time and up until 1983. We (the U.S.) were building them PGG's in Wisconsin and and PCG's in Tacoma. American crews would deliver them to Little Creek and we would train them to operate the ships. We had classroom instruction for months and would then go to sea with them. The events you describe brought a smile to my face. I remember well. The time you couldn't eat until after sunset had to have been Ramadan. They can't eat, smoke, or drink anything except water until after sundown during Ramadan. If we were ashore, you could go into a tavern right outside the gate at 1500 and find them drinking liquor with a gal next to them while back on the base we weren't allowed to eat, drink, or smoke. They weren't isolated incidents either, they were ALL doing it. Hypocrites. I could tell you MANY stories. I lost all respect for Muslims in those years. They are NOT our friends and those making concessions to them to maintain friendly relations are playing right into their hands.

Klif had the best solution I have seen.

Try out the women only hours. EVERY gym tracks usage and volume. If the volume of use during the women only hours in consistant or increases the policy is a good one. If usage is only the 6 that requested it - stop the program, it doesnt have sufficiant support.

Maybe the Muslim chics brought the suggestion to the Harvard admin with reasons it will be good for the six but ALSO a plethora of reasons it single sex workout time are good for all women. Maybe, they made a pretty good case.

If no one attends and Harvard keeps doing it anyway THEN I will condem them for caving to religion. If the numbers support it - who cares?

Harvard and the GYM should have ONLY ONE concearn: How to maximize use of the gym at all times. If single sex times increase use during off peak hours or even during peak hours - I think its a good thing. Look how popular Curves is. Fat chicks dont like going to the gym when guys are there. I think this will be popular with the Harvard women.

"Like this case? All of 6 women. That demand is too strong for the market to ignore."

How many men asked? Zero. The fact remains that there was no demand for a men only gym time, and some women asked for women only gym time. The demand is evidenced by the fact that there are successful women's only gyms everywhere else in the private sector.

I still think it's hilarious that you whiners say that a good solution would be to have "6 hours of men only gym time," when everyone knows you would never use it.

captain i agree with that

if it doesn't work out and there is no one there
go back to the way it was

total agreement

as far as only eating after sunset
yes thats a ramadan thing
but again you are free of the burdens of fasting when on a voyage, this is because it is much harder to do and you burden the others around you... if they were burdening the 250 other shipmates then they should have not been fasting, or chosen a different time to be on an american ship.

"Are you friggin' kidding me Kliffered?"

dude i was joking

this whole argument is hillarious if you ask me
its like being at the player haters ball

buc nasty!

Joe, they can try Guys only times, I doubt any one will take them up on it. Maybe some serious lifter meat heads. Those guys usually only go to the gym during off peak hours. They usually dont care about the co-ed part but like the gym less couded so they dont have to wait around for stuff. I doubt there would be much support for guy time. If there is...great guy only time.

Maximize use at all times should be the only concearn of Harvard, even if that means girls only for 6 hours.

Why do religious people always try to force their beliefs on others? If Christians don't want to buy beer on Sunday or sex toys anytime, why don't they just not do either?

The same goes for Muslims, if they want their own female-only gym, they should front the money and build one.

Maximize use at all times should be the only concearn of Harvard, even if that means girls only for 6 hours.


are you for lowering what guys pay for fees then that pay for the gym?

"are you for lowering what guys pay for fees then that pay for the gym?

Posted by kwrx25 at 2008-03-11 12:57 PM"

Sure. Guys get a 50 cent rebate each term. Oh yeah, and girls get a 50 cent rebate too, because it takes longer to clean up the boy's bathroom. Net zero. Carry on, poor oppressed white boys.

It takes longer to clean up the guys bathroom? My experience with bathroom usage (mind you at a bar I worked at) were that girls were freagin' filthy compared to men. A whole lot of hovering was going on in the gals bathroom, and a whole lot of shit and piss didn't make it in the bowl.

I'm kind of torn by this, but I think it could work out well, and not the way the fundie muslims intend.

If muslim women have a place where they can take off the scarf and burka, show more than an ankle, maybe they'll like it?

Maybe they'll like the freedom of dressing the way they want, the way that makes them comfortable, and maybe they'll start to see how fucked up their bonds of slavery are.

Let them go to the gym, dress normally, and then at the end, as they are wrapping themselves back up to hide from the world, maybe, just maybe, they'll ask themselves why they have to hide.

are you for lowering what guys pay for fees then that pay for the gym?

*****
No one "pays" to use the gym. Its part of your tuition. "If" gym use increases due to policy than Harvard added value for the students. If the use goes down they did not add value. I dont think the issue is any more complicated than that.

There are 3 gyms on campus. The other 2 are co-ed all the time.

If guys make an argument for Guy only time and they can support it with usage they should also get "guy time."

Now like I said before..if the use goes down the policy should be abandoned. We need to hold out for that data before rushing to judgment.

"...because it takes longer to clean up the boy's bathroom...."

Oh oh. You messed it up THIS time Monte. I owned businesses where the female employees ALL told me that the womens' restrooms were MUCH nastier than the mens'.

It was just an example to show how ridiculous KWR was being, Big John. But, now that we're talking about it, that's sick. Did you wear gloves?

It was just an example to show how ridiculous KWR was being, Big John. But, now that we're talking about it, that's sick. Did you wear gloves?

"and not the way the fundie muslims intend."

i am completely ok with this as i don't really like the headscarves myself. I don't want to cover myself so how could i ask a girl to.


My wife doesn't wear one. And i compliment her all the time to make sure she hopefully she doesn't wear one.

But thats her choice in the end. Just like these harvard girls i'm sure have a choice.

But thats her choice in the end. Just like these harvard girls i'm sure have a choice.

A 15 year old girl was murdered by her father and brothers not 5 miles from my house because she refused to wear the headscarf.

You know it's not their choice, stop pretending it is.

Does Harvard have very many Muslim women faculty/students? What about the men who need to use the gym at 8am? People need to be able to deal with shit sometimes, instead of demanding the rules be changed in cases where the changes dismiss the concerns of many others.

Would the boy of 8, who believes he is a girl, be allowed in?

pretrous

if he's in harvard

then he can ask

you want me to bring up statistics for men killing their daughters in america that aren't muslim
fucked up fathers are fucked up fathers
its not an epidemic that muslim fathers are killing their daughters

Nowhere did I state that murder was exclusive to muslim men, you know that, you're changing the subject.

The issue here is that a girl was killed for a very specific reason, and every other muslim girl knows it.

So when the next girl decides that she doesn't want to wear the headscarf, she has to decide if she wants to take the risk that her father/brother/husband is going to kill her for it.

The risk is low, but it's not zero, and that removes the choice.

Muslim girls don't choose to wear the headscarf, they're ordered to by their family, and it's safer to just go along with it.

Of course it isn't an epidemic. You only have to kill a few to intimidate the rest into silence.

norm
this is in college
are their parents there

they are CHOOSING to wear their scarf there

this isn't some boondox of afghanistan

dude your argument is for another time another place

if we were talking about woman in iran, then i would agree they have no choice

if were talking about girls living at home, then there would be segment of the population who aren't given a choice due to stupid fundie fathers feeling guilty for their own past sins

but we are talking about girls IN college, AWAY from home, LIVING IN the quad. Parents who are living on school property should be kicked out.

"You only have to kill a few to intimidate the rest into silence."

yea it worked real well in my house
no one wears hijab...i have THREE sisters. not even my mom wears one, and my dad prays 5 times a day and wouldn't dare demand anything of them like that.

and loves them and showers them with whatever they want including payed college educations with all his money.

in pakistan my cousins wear hijabs
all day long her brothers and family members make fun of her, call her an extremists... they are regular city dwelling, renting property pakistanis with no wealth, and standard education.

is it a problem, yes, but its not the "norm" ;)
i have very close muslim family friends in toronto norm. wear that poor girl was murdered. they were shocked as much as you and asked the same questions. How could a man kill his own daughter and for that matter over something like a hijab.

sorry i keep typing so much :)

i'm bored

first day away back in the office after being at client sites and i'm excited ;)

You want to say it's their choice? Fine. Then come up with an alternate theory for why a woman would directly and publicly mark herself as dirty and inferior.
Because that's exactly what a headscarf does.

Why do they do it? What sane person would walk around with a badge of slavery and inferiority on their person?

I'm doing you a favor. I'm saying the women are forced and brainwashed. You're saying they're crazy.

dude your putting in your hate in that statement

It's not hate, it's pity.

you feel it is dirty and inferior

I didn't define the meaning of the headscarf. It's not a fashion statement. They view themselves as unclean, they have to hide from the world, they can't be seen uncoverd.
It's their own statement.

its not about unclean
its about being modest
talk about extremist, the men who are ignorant say its because they are unclean, they are idiots too..

the woman who STILL wear it by choice don't think of it for that reason

you got a one sided view of this

talk to a girl that wears one by choice
you won't be pitying anymore
they wear it because they want to be close to God, and in their belief, that is a step toward closeness.


besides it IS a huge fashion statement now

you can get a coach hijab
designer headscarves are big sellers.

The same douchebags on here who would scream loudly if a Bible group group wanted exclusive access, or if a group of Hassidic women wanted exclusive access, are the ones who are willing to bend over and let Allah bone them on this one

wrong again douchebag

and once again thanks for not reading that its an all "woman's" time NOT an all "muslims woman's" time

Sharia creep. Get used to it.

Posters on both the right and the left correctly point out here what the real problem is: that were these Mennonite or Amish girls, they would be told to take a hike.

But with Islam, the ivory tower lefties and the limousine liberals have a real problem. Which is why, in Canada, the government will now pay welfare checks to Muslims and multiple wives, but not to Christian polygamists. Which is why, in London, 57% of British Pakistanis marry first cousins, whereas it's illegal for non-Muslims to marry family. Which is why, in Australia, there are "FGM Coordinators"--google it; you'd be shocked--in state hospitals, which would be a serious crime were it to involve Catholics or Hindus.

Two standards. One is 21st Century, liberal, and recognizes the value of the individual. Another is 9th Century, primitive, recognizes women not at all, and is tearing down Western civilization, beam by beam. Harvard believes the two can co-exist, and they're mistaken.

"thanks for not reading that its an all "woman's" time NOT an all "muslims woman's" time"


Nice smokescreen, fucktard. The request that instigated the shutting off of the gym space was from Muslim women. Go ahead and play the usual tired liberal jerk-off game of "Oh, what I meant was ALL women" but the fact remains that it was a cave in to MUSLIMS, not to WOMEN in general. Good luck peddling the usual rewrite shit .. you are wrong. And a douchebag.

"Two standards. One is 21st Century, liberal, and recognizes the value of the individual. Another is 9th Century, primitive, recognizes women not at all, and is tearing down Western civilization, beam by beam. Harvard believes the two can co-exist, and they're mistaken."

Well put R is R

And all because in the deranged Leftist mindset, the failed experiment of Multiculturalism still rules.

Excellent and well-written posting at 5:46PM, RIGHTISRIGHT.

Too bad the majority of the postings on here (mine included) are nothing but rabid, spittle-producing, response-baiting rants.

Yours stands out, IMHO.

"but we are talking about girls IN college, AWAY from home, LIVING IN the quad. Parents who are living on school property should be kicked out."

Forget the parents.

How about the organized campus Muslim group who now act as if they're either under siege or entitled to special considerations as can be seen in this example which I believe had the University bowing to the demands of just 6 girls.

I wonder Kliff, if a Muslim girl feels she would rather not follow the dictates of the group, how the group would deal with her? Would they just ignore her or make it a point to ostracize her and belittle her and/or make her feel as if she's a traitor to her people?

I seem to remember my college days where there was always one or two jerks who insisted you either get with the program or you get on their shit which could easily make your social life in that school miserable. Usually transfer to another school followed something like this.

gz

i have never heard of a muslim woman being ostracized for or against wearing a hijab

all you are doing is speculating

again this is all womans hour not all muslims hour

too bad you guys can't get past the fact that muslim woman asked for this instead of a rape victim

please you guys are sick

"these Mennonite or Amish girls, they would be told to take a hike." give me an example where they were told to take a hike by a institution such as harvard

isntead of spitting hate.

gz i'm talking about in college

this is the issue

not in palestine or anywhere

but on harvards campus

"Leftist mindset, the failed experiment of Multiculturalism still rules."

america is all about multiculturalism

or should we kick out anyoen that isn't white american protestant with british roots???

black, chinese, irish, italian, jew, muslim, hindu

lets get rid of why america is great

fools

Posted by everlong at 2008-03-10 06:30 PM

What are you guys going to say when Muslims start pushing to be able to pray 5 times a day in public schools because "their religion calls for it"? This whole "my religion" thing is one big scam and they will use it to every advantage they can.

"these Mennonite or Amish girls, they would be told to take a hike." give me an example where they were told to take a hike by a institution such as harvard

isntead of spitting hate.

Posted by klifferd
* * * *

" . . . they would be told to take a hike." is in the subjunctive. Thus, it's a metaphor.

I don't spit hate. I don't hate Muslims, so much as I kind of pity them. I find it interesting that in every single powder keg on earth, Muslims are close by, holding a match. Muslims killing Hindus in India. Muslims killing Filipinos in the Phillipines. Muslims killing Christians in Indonesia and Africa. Muslims killing Russians in Chechnya. Muslims killing Spaniards. Muslims killing tourists in Bali. Muslims killing New Yorkers. Muslims killing English and Israelis and Georgians and Croats and--more often than not--other Muslims.

Kinda makes you wonder whether Islam is compatible with anyone, anywhere. And even here, a small handful of Muslim women in the most liberal college in the world have decided they can't just get along either. Which is a shame. The more devout the Muslims become, the less they're able to live in a world not totally to their liking. And you accuse US of hate?

right is right

i believe the muslim world is at a very big changing point where the fundamentalist ways holding on to the past glory are fighting the future

and the future will win
it always does

so yes muslims everywhere are in a troubled state

but its not because of their religion its because of their clinging to the past. its because they are clinging to the bad parts of their cultures, the old parts that remind them when they were on top.

i don't accuse the usa of hate
i love the usa
read my above posts
and you see that i believe america is the only shining example of multiculturalism

i accuse YOU of hate.
i accuse YOU of being against the american success story.

and i accuse the muslims of forgetting about education and slipping into a sentiment for the past when the reason why the past was glorious was they were looking to the future.

i don't want to islamafy the usa in any way

all womans hour doesn't sound like islamification

if it was all muslim hour i would say this is wrong.

but you fail to realize that this is all womans hour

what muslim woman can't fight for other woman

This sucks. As an alum, I'll be voicing my opinion, but I have little hope it will do much to sway them. This is the creeping PC crap that started in the late 80s and has gained momentum over the years.

At one point during my soph year, there was a "take back the night" rally for women. During it, we (men) were told to understand the anxiety women felt during the night. We were advised to cross the street if we were walking behind a woman, so she would feel more secure.

It was bullshit thought police crap then, and it's the same now.

"Regime Change"-
Let me get this right: You are among the alumni of Harvard and you post under "Regime Change"?

?

Send these idiots back to their respective Countries where they are treated worse than friggin goats.

badeye what if they are from the usa

send yerself to the nearest cliff.

This is what extremists in Islam have wrought. This is what the "war on terrorism" has done. The perception of "everyone is one way or the other - but nothing between" is taking hold. The groundwork is being laid. You're with us or against us has been translated to you are like us or you're one of them.

It's going to be an interesting century.

yav i agree
the black and white view of the spectrum is how its going to be for a while

and jest
muslims don't sleep we wait for the best time to pull our built in ripcords of death ;)

Maybe, when the Muslim Arab terrorists set off their first nuke in the U.S. it will be on top of the pussy libs at Harvard, Berkely, or Hollywood.

The real reason that Muslim women cover up is that they are butt ugly.

betelg:

Yes, I do.

Perhaps you can delve into the myriad meanings that handle can have.

Alternatively, you can stick to the fantasy that everybody who went to Harvard is a toe-the-line legacy brat whose only interest is to maintain the hegemony of the moment.

Regime Change,
You may want to delve in to the myriad of handles betelg has had here at the retort.
The worst kept secret in the world is that "Boyd" continually changes handles, but not styles. He's been at minimum 5 different handles since he declared he was leaving the retort for good (it happened when like minded liberals disagreed with him on an issue and he flew off the handle).

Playing with him is even more of a waste of time than playing with me, if you can imagine that...

Chair,

Duly noted. And FF on your "delve" twist.

It's noteworthy that the posters who maintain their handles, be they conservative or liberal or somewhere in between, are generally the only ones with something to say.

I guess the trolls need to keep it moving...

rc