Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Saturday, March 01, 2008

Extraordinary winter conditions in many parts of the world have been seized on by those who challenge warnings about dangerous human-caused global warming.

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When the average temperature drops five years in a row then I will buy it.

climate skeptics are 19% of the country.
americanresearchgroup.com

What cold spell?

2007 was the second warmest year on record.

davidappell.blogspot.com

Do the math yourself:

data.giss.nasa.gov

More snow?
Of course.

Warmer oceans: More evaporation.
Warmer atmosphere: Supports more water vapor; Same relative humidity range.

Since the Great Lakes no longer freeze in Winter, lake-effect snows are even more fun.


Hey Zat,

One good volcano could blow your AlGore Global Warming religion right out of the water.

Hey shit-for-brains.

Volcanoes cause cooling.

"
Science: Pinatubo cooling will test greenhouse models

* 11 January 1992
* From New Scientist Print Edition. Subscribe and get 4 free issues.
* JEFF HECHT , BOSTON

The Earth is likely to cool substantially over the next three years because of material injected into the upper atmosphere when Mount Pinatubo erupted in the Philippines last June, according to an American atmospheric scientist. He says the cooling will be an 'acid test' for climate models which predict global warming."


Happy extinction , fuckwit.



Humans dump ~170x as much greenhouse gas in the air as volcanoes every year.

www.hawaiinews.com

data.giss.nasa.gov

Do the math; Presumably you can.
"No child left behind" and all that.

Nothing will dent the Global Warming crowds religious beliefs.
According to them the only thing that can stop Global Warming is raising taxes.

Get a grip Zat.

Take a pill.

You somehow missed my pithy point. If Kracatoa blows it's lid in a prodigous way we could see your global warming turned around for 10,000 years. But you and AlGore are always right because then you could bitch about global cooling.

It's funny to watch these tit for tat global warming threads and posts. "It's the coldest today than it ever has been". "This is the hottest year since 1888".

As if a handful of recent temperature observations is any indication of what the planet has been doing for billions of years.

*yawn* Someone wake me up when the predictions of climatologists and atmospheric scientists are better than what I get at the craps table.

Sounds like something is at stake for those who buy into the religion of global warming?

They almost sound like the those crazy anti-evolution creationists.

Given that the earth has had several ice-overs (as in ice ages), and then ice-outs (as in global warming)...given that earth's natural history shows such a cyclical pattern this non-man-made phenomenon, I would certainly hope these nut-ball-global-warming religionists don't begin flooding our school board meetings insisting that our children's text books include such tripe. Then we'll have to fight both nut-ball-creationists and nut-ball-globalwarming-idiots!

Save our children!!!


Dear Doubting,

Maybe you haven't noticed how intolerant evolutionists are about anyone even mentioning any other theory in school such as intelligent design. I am a scientific person and I wouldn't mind if teachers mentioned alternative theories to Darwinist theory.

According to Darwinians, life began when lightning hit a mud puddle. One needs a lot of faith to believe that.

"alternative theories to Darwinist theory"

Do you have proof for any, or will the Flying Spaghetti Monster also be on the menu?

Hey hows come there are toos cold spellz on dis place.

According to Darwinians, life began when lightning hit a mud puddle.

I am a scientific person


Uh-huh.

for a "scientific" person, FWTHOM, you seem to have a slim grasp on evolutionary theory.

"According to Darwinians, life began when lightning hit a mud puddle."

Abiogenesis is the study of the origins/beginning of life, no evolution.

"Maybe you haven't noticed how intolerant evolutionists are about anyone even mentioning any other theory in school such as intelligent design. I am a scientific person and I wouldn't mind if teachers mentioned alternative theories to Darwinist theory."

Scientists (not "evolutionists", which is telling as to what your bias is) aren't "intolerant." They are simply expecting ID proponents to abide by the same standards they hold themselves to (ironically, the same standards ID proponents hold them to). ID is nothing more than throwing in the intellectual towel because something looks too complicated. And you should probably look up the definition, the one used by scientists, not layman, of theory as you seem to be using it in a colloquial sense.

Dan,

I don't have any proof about theories concerning the beginning of life, however neither do the Darwinians have any proof about their theory on the subject.

According to Darwinians, life began when lightning hit a mud puddle. One needs a lot of faith to believe that.

Posted by fwthom at 2008-03-01 10:40 PM


Actually Darwinism says nothing of the sort. Darwinism deals with natural selection and survival of the fittest.

"Actually Darwinism says nothing of the sort. Darwinism deals with natural selection and survival of the fittest."

Sorry, Goatman, but we don't need no stinkin' facts around here. It's not the Drudge way!

Why are liberals, global warming freaks, evolutionists, Darwinians,and so-called progresives all so intolerant? Why are they such Eric Hoffer True Believers?

"however neither do the Darwinians have any proof about their theory on the subject."

If you have a better one, have at it. But saying "this isn't fully known" is already in the system: all comers are welcome to improve and expand the theory. And until science (or anything) can point to something else with ANY proof, one man's Christ is another man's Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Hey religious zealots, what the fuck is taking Jesus so long?

Maybe you haven't noticed how intolerant evolutionists are about anyone even mentioning any other theory in school such as intelligent design

Intelligent Design isn't a teachable theory it's a blatent attempt to teach religion in school and to try and discredit Darwinism and modern evolutionary theory.

ID basically breaks down to... "We don't have a complete fossil record ergo God exists". It's so stupid it shouldn't even be a question whether or not to teach it but it's proponents are so ignorant they don't even know they should be embarrassed.

It's Creationism version 2.0 and it's subscribers are out and out IDiots.

According to Darwinians, life began when lightning hit a mud puddle. One needs a lot of faith to believe that.

Actually as has been pointed out wot yer talking about is abiogenisis and no Darwin doesn't attempt to try adn explain it. Darwin talks about survival of the fittest and how successful biological traits get passed on more frequently than unsuccessful ones. All of modern evolutionary theory has subsequently been backed up by modern genetic theory.

Question... When you speak... Can you actually taste the WRONG?

Hey religious zealots, what the fuck is taking Jesus so long?

Spud's heard that he's not coming back to Earth until he learns to play the piano.

/Stole that joke from Sam Kinison.
//Sam's dead so he prolly won't mind.
///Miss that loud mouthed SOB. Laws, yes.

On Topic?

The earth IS getting hotter AND colder. Higher highs, lower lows and stormier storms.

None of these are good things.

The IPCC are fuggin' OPTIMISTS not pessimists you scientifically challenged MORONS.

Phew! Was Cathartic fer Spud to type all that.

Be Well.

/When will modern religion stop fucking around with things it doesn't understand and start rethinking it's immorality disguised as morality?
//Somewhere off in the ether the shade of Galileo is heave a long sigh.

Why are liberals, global warming freaks, evolutionists, Darwinians,and so-called progresives all so intolerant? Why are they such Eric Hoffer True Believers?

Posted by fwthom

an why are you such a trollish piece of retarded monkey offal?

inquiring minds want to know..

Spud's heard that he's not coming back to Earth until he learns to play the piano.

but he should be able to use his hands for a whistle.

but he should be able to use his hands for a whistle.

Actually, they were healing over quite nicely but Doubting Thomas keeps poking at them holes and then it's back to square one.

Be Well.

Why are liberals, global warming freaks, evolutionists, Darwinians,and so-called progresives all so intolerant?

Why are fundie fuckwits, global warming deniers, IDiots, evDEVILicals and Talibaptists all so anti-science, anti-morality and just proud as hell of their own ignorance?

Being intolerant of intolerance is no sin.

Hating Hate and Loving Love are just signs of sanity and morality.

Seeking knowledge and wisdom as best you can is a sacred trust.

To not do so enrages the Flying Spagetti Monster and you really don't want to do that for Lo, His wroth is most horrible. If He wanted to He could stretch out a single noodly appendage and give you SUCH a pinch.

Do not anger the great and powerful
FSM!!!!1!

...or Stewie!! ...cos that kid is nutZ! S'rsly!! ^_^

Be Well.

climate skeptics are 19% of the country

The same as Bush's approval rating?

That CAN'T be a coincidence.

Be Well.

Anyone who imagines that the cumalative effects of an over populated, industrialised planet is not in large measure responsible for where we are now is basically a moron in denial.


You're right of course.

Computer models are infallible.

Macro-climate change is really not at all complex.

The science behind man-made global warming is tighter than running a controlled experiment and measuring the results.


Utterly amazing.

The global warming issue is going to prove to be a huge black eye for the scientific community. Not that the theory itself is neccessarily bad, but because the way in which the scientific community is so protective of that theory.

It used to be that theories were constantly challenged with new theories, which resulted in new observations, experiments and data that either proved to be stronger or weaker than the theory challenged. Throughout all of history man has believed in certain scientific theories that later proved to be wrong. The sun revolving around the earth, for example. The earth being flat, as another example.

The global warming religious zealots are treating alternative theories much the same way the Catholic church originally treated Galileo. How ironic.

The next few years will be interesting. The earth just recorded an unprecedented drop in global temperature over the last 12 months. By far the widest change in such a short period ever measured. This drop corresponds with a lack of solar activity. Hmmmm.... Is it possible, maybe, that while man-made CO2 emmissions do have a greenhouse effect, that other forces that affect climate change are far more impactful? Should we not at the very least theorize such? Should we not set out to try and prove other theories via observation and experimentation?

Posted by JeffJ at 2008-03-01 03:39 PM

climate skeptics are 19% of the country

My guess would be that climate skeptics are closer to 100% of the country. Some are skeptical of one thing, some another, some yet another. Some are simply skeptical of the skeptics, making themselves skeptics, I guess.

ID basically breaks down to... "We don't have a complete fossil record ergo God exists"

Which is a lot like the Socialism and Planned Economy Crowd...

"We don't really have the modeling capability to predict localized weather patterns beyond the next 48 hours, but we're going to fill your bored little heads with visions of ecological apocalypse NOW; ergo society needs to immediately re-conform itself to our [demonstrably failed]understanding of how human beings should conduct themselves."

Galileo is heave a long sigh.

Fuck you and dumbasses like you.

Don't evoke his name---or even the discipline he pursued.

Galileo challenged the "truth" as it was known to the sheep.

People like you are the new sheep---except you're intoxicated by and mired in complete fucking ignorance by your ideology instead of you religion.

The earth IS getting hotter AND colder. Higher highs, lower lows and stormier storms.

None of these are good things.


It's called "weather", you fucking idiot.

Welcome to earth.

That would be the "earth" where the pavement and Starbucks' end---and there's no Anderson Cooper or Time Magazine to inform you and help you properly (and ideologically) contextualize shitty weather.

Fifty years ago, in a coffee house in some Marxist enclave, if you were to make the case that the weather could be systematically blamed on the bourgeois, you'd be laughed out of the joint as a whack job.

This "issue" and it's malcontents are a heart-breaking example of just how stupid human beings have allowed themselves to become.

Its almost enough for one to hope for a bird flu.

Anyone who imagines that the cumalative effects of an over populated, industrialised planet is not in large measure responsible for where we are now is basically a moron in denial

Great arguement: "you are a moron".

Flashback 500 years:

"Anyone who imagines that the sun is the center of the solar system is basically a moron in denial"

I understand why people said that. It was intuitive that the earth was the center. Most observations supported that belief. Yes, our intuitions tell us mankind is responsible for global warming. Unfortunately climatology is a nascent science that we are just barely beginning to understand.

But call someone a moron in denial will surely prove a point. Thing is, however, it proves how much the opinion of the writer of that sentiment is worth.

""Anyone who imagines that the sun is the center of the solar system is basically a moron in denial""

Which Pope said that?

It used to be that theories were constantly challenged with new theories, which resulted in new observations, experiments and data that either proved to be stronger or weaker than the theory challenged. Throughout all of history man has believed in certain scientific theories that later proved to be wrong. The sun revolving around the earth, for example. The earth being flat, as another example.

The global warming religious zealots are treating alternative theories much the same way the Catholic church originally treated Galileo. How ironic.
- JeffJ


Galileo is heave a long sigh.

Fuck you and dumbasses like you.

Don't evoke his name---or even the discipline he pursued.

Galileo challenged the "truth" as it was known to the sheep.

People like you are the new sheep---except you're intoxicated by and mired in complete fucking ignorance by your ideology instead of you religion.
- Pinche Mao


You are a dirty plaigarist, Mao.

But I am a forgiving guy.


Simply watch this video as you penance:

www.youtube.com



Dan,


Which Pope said that?


Are you proving my point, again?


Usually you come down on the opposite side of my point, even when you agree with me.

The earth IS getting hotter AND colder. Higher highs, lower lows and stormier storms.

Can we all just take a moment---in the name of peace, harmony, and goodwill---to grasp the utter fucking stupidity of that sentence?

At no point, in the climatological and geological history of this rock, could suck a kernel of wisdom have been written and not be true.

The non-falsifiable hypothesis is the last refuge of a leftist shitstain.

Time to neuter another newbie!!!

Simply watch this video as you penance

I'm too far out in the sticks---kickin' it with dial-up.

Downloading is a major event around here.

Downloading is a major event around here.


Well, bookmark the link and watch it when you have time.


Any "Star Wars" fan will get a major chuckle.

"Are you proving my point, again?"

Jes' joshin'.

I think it was Pope Galileo.

It is neutering time!!!!!

And how about you Pinche? You are luckier then most, your daddy was drunk off his his ass when he spent that $10 buck to fuck your mother. He syphillitic discharge could have missed it's mark and you would be nothing but a bad memeory and a two day hangover.


I've always know "the good brother" died as a stain on an Acuna mattress.

And if you can find a $10 whore in a place that offers the kind of whiskey that results in a 2 day hang-over (even in 1973)---you need to be running for President.

I think it was Pope Galileo.

Joke, right?

The non-falsifiable hypothesis is the last refuge of a leftist shitstain.

Posted by Pinche_Mao


True. Everybody knows that asserting "non-falsifiable hypotheses" is the exclusive province of "leftist shitstains."

Never seen a rightist do that...

Fucking leftists!

"The non-falsifiable hypothesis is the last refuge of a leftist shitstain."

But, enough about Creation....

Fucking leftists!

~Nullfidian

Ya know Spud hates 'em! Grrrrr!

Them four eyted freaks always jib jabbering, going on and on and on with their high fallutin' talk that yer average righty tighty can't make heads nor tail of.

Plus most of them is plum ornery too!

^_^

Be Well.

/Pope Gal-ileo?
//Which one was the pregnant Pope?
///Or is Spud thinking of a different
Gal?

Them four eyted freaks always jib jabbering, going on and on and on with their high fallutin' talk that yer average righty tighty can't make heads nor tail of.

Except yer just jib-jabbering....

...with the kind of (self-percieved) high-fallutin' talk that even my two-year old has transcended.

How is your 2-year old doing, Mao?

But, enough about Creation....

Except Creationist Theory is falsifiable.

I just crushed a Lucky Strike out on an ammonite in the bed of my pickup.

I found it yesterday and brought it home.

But if you wish to compare levels of scientific certainty regarding the earth being 6,000 years old vs. the earth being threatened by human-influenced, macro-climate cycles, you can be my guest.

"you can be my guest"

Thanks, but no thanks. As with many issues, I'm a curious observer.

"Joke, right?"

.....right.

How is your 2-year old doing, Mao?

Jib-jabbering.

Knows his "ABCs"

Mamma finally let me put him on his first horse the other day---at his 2nd birthday (I can send you a picture)

Do you know The Wiggles, Jeff?

"Jib-jabbering. Knows his "ABCs"

Cool. A great age. Here's wishing you some really good, uninterrupted sleep.

Mao,


Knows his "ABCs"

Awesome!!!


I can send you a picture)

Please do. The most recent picture I have of the little guy is him reading The Road to Serfdom. My guess is that he was roughly 6 months to a year old at the time.


PS - Did you get the summer pictures I sent last November? My Hotmail account kept fucking up the attachment, so I had to send them via my work email account.


Do you know the Wiggles, Jeff?

Neither of my boys were really into the Wiggles. My youngest is now 4-years old and is way past that stage.

Both boys are huge admirers of the Lightsaber, though.




The most recent picture I have of the little guy is him reading The Road to Serfdom

It hangs in my office.

Did you get the summer pictures I sent last November?

Yes!

Neither of my boys were really into the Wiggles

Good.

They consume every aspect of your life.

Their songs---I mean.

The wife has a crush on Anthony.

I have a crush on Friendly Pirate Lucia.

That's how we survive.


"The most recent picture I have of the little guy is him reading The Road to Serfdom
"

Are you sure that wasn't "Atlas Shrugged" or "The Fountainhead"?

Are you sure that wasn't "Atlas Shrugged" or "The Fountainhead"?

The boy was less than 1-year of age. I am sure he's read those other materpieces by now.


Damn you're stict!


If you could be bothered to have kids (or get laid ;-) I'd be willing to bet they'd be reciting Das Kapital by the time they reached 4 months of age.

If you could be bothered to have kids (or get laid ;-) I'd be willing to bet they'd be reciting Das Kapital by the time they reached 4 months of age.

Posted by JeffJ


With any luck!

If you could be bothered to have kids (or get laid ;-)

You should get laid sometime, Bill.

I think you'd like it.

In fact, I might start one of them "Pay-Pal" accounts to send you, "Dethspud", and Hans to Thailand.

I wanna do some good in this world.

Why doesn't Pinche like Thai people?

"In fact, I might start one of them "Pay-Pal" accounts to send you, "Dethspud", and Hans to Thailand."

Why would you send ol' Spudsie to Thailand? He won't be able to get laid there either. He's impotent, you know.

Extraordinary winter conditions in many parts of the world have been seized on by those who challenge warnings about dangerous human-caused global warming.

Human caused global warming, (if it even exists) is miniscule in comparison to changes in the sun -- and especially sunspot activity.

www.dailytech.com

Human caused global warming, (if it even exists) is miniscule in comparison to changes in the sun

Bowa, let me be the 1 millionth to say that you are a stupid fucking dumbass! How could you be such a retard as to believe that something that is only 27 million degrees (F) could actually change the temperature of the Earth by fractions of a degree? God you are a stupid, fucking, idiot. What's next, human sacrifice? Moron!

Uh huh. I don't really know what a "climate skeptic" is--I believe in climate.

But let's assume your silly 19% climate skeptic nonsense is true. How many of the 81% who believe in the dogmatic mankind-caused global warming and climate change have changed their lifestyles, ANY? For that matter, how many of you have? How many of you are driving LESS, because of global warming, and NOT because of $3 gasoline? How many of YOU turn off your air conditioner in the summer?

I must be part of the 19% that says what I do or not do has no effect on the earth's climate whatsoever. You disagree. But you live exactly the same. Which makes you part of the "hypocritical 81%".

"Why would you send ol' Spudsie to Thailand? He won't be able to get laid there either. He's impotent, you know."

Posted by jestgettinalong at 2008-03-02 09:24 AM


Perhaps he didn't find you attractive.

Did it hurt your feelings?

Hans

The following is a short list of societies which support the climate change findings. Feel free to tell them of their ill-advised and erroneous position. Also, please inform them of your qualifications in the fields of meteorology and climatology.

Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change
Climate Change 2007: The Physical Science Basis, IPCC, 2007. Contribution of Working Group I to the Fourth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change [Solomon, S., D. Qin, M. Manning, Z. Chen, M. Marquis, K.B. Averyt, M.Tignor and H.L. Miller (eds.)]. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, United Kingdom and New York, NY, USA.
Scientific Societies:
American Meteorological Society
American Geophysical Union
American Association for the Advancement of Science
Geological Society of America
American Chemical Society
U.S. National Academy of Sciences

Research:
Beyond the Ivory Tower: The Scientific Consensus on Climate Change, Naomi Oreskes

Oreskes analyzed 928 abstracts published in refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003 and listed in the ISI database with the keywords "climate change." Of all the papers, 75 percent either explicitly or implicitly accepted the consensus view that global warming is happening and humans are contributing to it; 25 percent dealt with methods or ancient climates, taking no position on current anthropogenic (human-caused) climate change. Remarkably, none of the papers disagreed with the consensus position.

"Most of us who are involved in research related to climate change have been asked at one time or another to participate in public debates against skeptics of one sort or another. Some of us have even been cajoled into accepting. In the pre-YouTube days, I did one against the then-head of the American Petroleum institute at the U. of Chicago law school. Gavin did an infamous one against Crichton and company. People are always demanding that Al Gore debate somebody or other. Both Dave Archer and I have been asked to debate Dennis Avery (of "Unstoppable Global Warming" fame) on TV or radio more than once -- and declined. It's a no win situation. If you accept you give the appearance that these skeptics have something to say that's actually worth debating about -- and give their bogus ideas more publicity. If you decline there are all sorts of squawks that "X won't debate!" or implications that scientists have declared "the debate" (whatever that is supposed to mean) prematurely closed when in fact it is "just beginning."
Scientists tend to react badly to demands like this in part because the word "debate" is a rather poor description of the way disagreements get hashed out in science. John Ziman has a good discussion of the extent to which scientific questions are 'debatable' here (pdf). In a lawyerly debate, it is fair game for each side to pick and choose whatever argument has the most persuasive force with the audience, jury or judge, without any obligation to consider the force of counter-arguments except insofar as they affect one's defense against the opponent. Science, in contrast, is a deliberative, cooperative, yet still competitive enterprise, where each side is duty bound to fairly consider all arguments and data that bear on the matter at hand. This is not to say that scientific disputes are necessarily dispassionate or orderly. Indeed, I've seen near-fistfights break out over things like the Snowball Earth and the interpretation of Neoproterozoic carbon isotope excursions.
The repeated challenges to debate are probably meant to imply that scientists are fixed in their ideas, unreceptive to the new and challenging, and unwilling to defend their ideas in public. This picture is hard to square with how scientists actually behave among themselves. It is not that scientists don't debate, dispute, disagree about matters related to climate. All those things happen, but not on the subjects that skeptics like Inhofe or Fred Singer or Dennis Avery would like to debate (like whether global warming is mainly caused by CO2 or solar variability, or whether the IPCC warming forecasts represent a credible threat.). Those sorts of things are indeed considered settled science by serious climate scientists. Then, too, scientists are justifiably wary of being drawn into staged debates on such diffuse, ill-defined and largely meaningless topics as whether global warming counts as a "crisis." In the war of the sound bites, the people who feel free to lie and distort can always win. David Mamet made this point eloquently in Bambi vs. Godzilla. A debate like that is not any kind of debate in the sense understood by scientists.
In fact scientists are probing theories and conceptions all the time, trying to break them. The best way to become famous is to overturn established wisdom, so scientists look hard all the time for opportunities to do this."
- RealClimate 23 January 2008

I live in the Arizona desert. It rained twice last week. I think it is a crazy liberal lie that this a desert.

From the Right.

The problem I have with the notion that a scientist or scientific organization would take a particular position because they could gain funds from the government is that they face the danger of losing creditability. This is probably the worst thing that could happen to them. Further, to suggest that prestigous science academies and international scientific organizations would do so suggests that a massive world wide conspiracy is occuring. If so, we are in a huge deal of trouble not just in the realm of science, but in many other things.

I do see one plus in the position of those who argue in favor of a human impact on climate change. That would be that they have created climate models and constantly challenge them. I have not seen such models on the deniers side, merely "exceptions" which supposedly "disprove". Seems to me the one side is trying to be scientific in their approach, while the other is using an anecdotal approach. Guess which one I think scientists should use.

I live in the Arizona desert. It rained twice last week. I think it is a crazy liberal lie that this a desert.

From the Right.

Posted by navyvet50
* * * *

Good strawman Navy. That is, if you can find a righty tighty who believes that it never rains in the desert.

Mine would go something like this:
"I live in the Arizona desert, drive a gas-guzzling car, and keep my air conditioning on eight months out of the year. If global warming is a serious problem, don't bother me to (a) move; (b) change my lifestyle; (c) otherwise inconvenience me in any way.

My point? That if global warming IS happening, and mankind IS the primary malefactor--you're more guilty of it than anyone.

Thanks for playing.

"I live in the Arizona desert, drive a gas-guzzling car, and keep my air conditioning on eight months out of the year. If global warming is a serious problem, don't bother me to (a) move; (b) change my lifestyle; (c) otherwise inconvenience me in any way.

You are right. I will move into a solar powered home. buy an electric car, or take the subway to work. What these options are not offered in the majority of the west?
My mistake.

I do ride my bike to work. Not in 115 degree heat. I do my best to conserve, especially water, desert landscaping.
My point was that the right points to wherever it is cold---Look, Look no global warming here. Nice try at a deflection though.

Good strawman Navy. That is, if you can find a righty tighty who believes that it never rains in the desert.

I will call the flat earth society and ask all the righties there.

You are right. I will move into a solar powered home. buy an electric car, or take the subway to work. What these options are not offered in the majority of the west?
My mistake.
* * * *

Not my problem. If you believe that mankind is causing global warming (I do not), how do you live with yourself, knowing that you--YOU--are doing such harm to the planet, by virtue of where and how you live?

Don't bother trying to come up with a snarky answer, because I've heard them all before, from the 8-mpg-limousine liberals with their 10,000 square foot mansions in Malibu to the private-jet-setting Al Gore, all of whom enjoy telling everyone ELSE to save the world for future generations.

I will call the flat earth society and ask all the righties there.

Posted by navyvet50
* * * *

Um, sure. I'll be sure to ask them myself at the big convention we have.

Climate Skeptics Seize on Cold Spell

We can only do our best while we are here on this earth. As long as I am following that creed I have no problem living with myself.

Climate Skeptics Seize on Rain in Desert.

Climate Skeptics Seize on no rain in Rain Forest.



Climate Skeptics Seize on no rain in Rain Forest.

This is not a snarky question, but what exactly is a climate skeptic?

Just following the original topic of this thread.

That skeptics will grab any illogical premise to refute what scientists study for years to understand.

I think it's someone who doesn't believe in climate.

That skeptics will grab any illogical premise to refute what scientists study for years to understand.

Yeah, Galileo and Kepler are prime examples. Oh, let's not forget Isaac Newton. He tumped the apple cart on physical dogma. Einstein? Yep, you got it. Another one who grabbed an illogical premise and refuted the scientists of the day.

Those bastards!

Yeah, Galileo and Kepler are prime examples. Oh, let's not forget Isaac Newton. He tumped the apple cart on physical dogma. Einstein? Yep, you got it. Another one who grabbed an illogical premise and refuted the scientists of the day.

Those bastards! GOATMAN

Those smart bastards. Who grabbed an illogical premise in their fields of study. Like you and I who sometimes grab an illogical premise in fields we have never done any scientific research, unless you are a scientist, then my apology. I do not think so.
I was talking about laymen and not scientists who have the background to make such leaps that are not so illogical because they relied on facts.

I was talking about laymen and not scientists who have the background to make such leaps that are not so illogical because they relied on facts

But facts can be deceiving, can't they? Astronomy was a nascent science at the beginning of the 15th century. The facts that astronomers had to work with were: The sun rises and sets. Therefore there is no question that it moves. The moon and planets all moved in the sky throughout the year. Therefore, they must be attached to some sort of nested celestical spheres which like the sun, moved. This explained the sun, moon, and planets' motions perfectly.

Then as observations got better during the renaissance, ripples appeared in these ideas. Observations no long quite fit the sphere theory.

Anyway, you know the rest of the story.

Likewise, climatology is a nascent science. Everything that our climatology scientist/priests tell us does not fit in with all our observations. Yet like academia of the 15th century, we all want to embrace what our scientist/priests tell us and bow to their altars because intuitively it sounds right.

I want all the facts before I worship at the altar of anthropogenic global warming. I understand that all the facts are not necessary to a lot of people before they make up their minds -- both in the 14th and 21st centuries -- but that's not for me.

Name calling is similar to that of a child pouting because he didn't get her way.

"I think it's someone who doesn't believe in climate."

I belief is a religion and i do not believe in religions. Global warming/climate change is a religion not a science. There's a huge anti-capitalist agenda behind it.

I'm going to bet here right now 500 million dollars that none of you that think global warming is a apocalyptic event understands how weather works.

The only people that do understand weather are meteorologist. Yet you scorn the founder of the weather channel, a meteorologist who says global warming is a scam.

Prove to me talk to me like I'm a moron and prove to me and everyone here that global warming is real. Now list and actually physically list all these scientist that agree with your assertion.

For every "Scientist" you list I can list 4-5 meteorologist that says global warming isn't real.

But i guess you'll take the word of a self proclaimed scientist (in the real world just a green peace climate alarmist) over a meteorologist.

PROVE to me don't just point to who said what that global warming is real. To me it's just a UFO. Prove it to me!

"prove"

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Read the thermometer.

It's decades too late.

1896
Arrhenius publishes first calculation of global warming from human emissions of CO2.
www.aip.org

What happens to the temperature of a system if more heat goes in than comes out?

Here's a few dozen scientists who say global warming isn't anything to really worry about.

icecap.us

But what do they know right? they're just scientists. I guess they don't count because they don't follow your religion.

I say Zit is another big government taxpayer feeding parasite. Does the thermometer reader have the balls to expose himself and propose his solution?

1896
Arrhenius publishes first calculation of global warming from human emissions of CO2.



I cannot but regard the ether, which can be the seat of an electromagnetic field with its energy and its vibrations, as endowed with a certain degree of substantiality,. (Hendrik Lorentz, 1906)


Can't always bat 1000

Read the thermometer.

You said in a post earlier today that global warming is based on 400,000 years of data. 400,000 is to the lifetime of the Earth what 8 seconds is to a day. (do the math if you don't believe me)

So if I read the thermometer for 8 seconds at noon, I should be able to accurately predict with the temperature will be at midnight?

"lifetime of the Earth"

So said the geological formation.

"the past 420,000 years during which most extant marine organisms evolved"

www.sciencemag.org


Happy extinction, IT boy.

Ok but it's been hotter and cooler and hotter and cooler and hotter and cooler and hotter ... for millions of years.

That sun you see it doesn't give off a constant energy. It's variable. If that sun gives off a lot of energy it's going to be hotter. If it doesn't give off enough energy it gets a lot cooler.

You cannot honestly sit there and tell me that the sun plays no real role in temperatures?

The real deal?

Against the grain: Some scientists deny global warming exists
www.nationalpost.com

"The concentration of carbon dioxide in Earth's atmosphere now exceeds 380 ppm, which is more than 80 ppm above the maximum values of the past 740,000 years (5, 6), if not 20 million years (7)."

# 5. D. A. Petit et al., Nature 399, 429 (1999). [CrossRef]
# 6. EPICA community members, Nature 429, 623 (2004). [CrossRef]
# 7. J. Raven et al., "Acidification due to increasing carbon dioxide." Policy Document 12/05 (The Royal Society, London, 2005).

pragmatous;

I agree with you. All these lemmings running around make me laugh.

The man who unlocked the secrets of the new seasons of climate change may have to leave his job because of government cutbacks. Tim Sparks has led the way in demonstrating that the plants and animals were already responding to global warming, before people were even aware of the problem.

The environmental statistician fathered a revival in the study of the timings of natural events, such as the leafing of trees, the nesting of birds and the emergence of insects all of which are being altered by rising atmospheric temperatures. The findings figured prominently in the most recent report of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, as evidence that climate change was really happening.


www.independent.co.uk

Great, the father of one of the most important discoveries in the history of science is gonna lose his job.

As a species we are soooo fucked.

Be Well.

I am sure that of al gore or michael moore made a movie saying the world was flat, they would believe it.

If these two (gore, moore) were selling penis enlargement cream these lemmings would but it. Maybe not, they would need to get a life, a job to pay for the cream and a girlfriend first.

"the past 420,000 years during which most extant marine organisms evolved"

And the connection to climatology is . . .?

I say Zit is another big government taxpayer feeding parasite. Does the thermometer reader have the balls to expose himself and propose his solution?

Posted by Ray at 2008-03-02 08:25


I swear Zit is an idiot savant. He can't answer a simple question. He just keeps repeating the same mumbo jumbo over and over again.

"The concentration of carbon dioxide in Earth's atmosphere now exceeds 380 ppm, which is more than 80 ppm above the maximum values of the past 740,000 years (5, 6), if not 20 million years (7)."

O2 is the most important greenhouse gas.

Not even close. Most of the greenhouse effect is due to water vapor, which is about 100 times as abundant in the atmosphere as CO2 and thus has a much larger effect.


The greenhouse effect is a bad thing.

The greenhouse effect is necessary for life on earth as we know it, were it not for the greenhouse effect, temperatures on Earth would be about 60 degrees F (33C) colder than they are at present. The global warming discussions center on the claims that human enhancement of the greenhouse will raise temperatures, and that these will be large compared with natural variations. (
www.junkscience.com and Sherwood B. Idso, Craig D. Idso and Keith E. Idso, "The Specter of Species Extinction: Will Global Warming Decimate Earth's Biosphere?,
www.marshall.org)
http://icecap.us/index.php/go/ faqs-and-myths#5

As a species we are soooo fucked.

Posted by dethspud at 2008-03-02 08:35 PM


Speak for yourself spudboy. You know as much about science as a grade schooler. That's why you can't see the con.

"I say Zit is another big government taxpayer feeding parasite."

Yeah, well I say Ray is another corporate loving, gold-hoarding Exxon apologist.

Most of the greenhouse effect is due to water vapor, which is about 100 times as abundant in the atmosphere as CO2 and thus has a much larger effect.

That's why even large changes in CO2 by percentage are insignificant relative to the totality of all greenhouse gases.

Yeah, well I say Ray is another corporate loving, gold-hoarding Exxon apologist.

Posted by nullifidian at 2008-03-02 08:49 PM


I say Nulli is another big government taxpayer feeding parasite.

I would rather be a corporate lover than a parasite.

Great, the father of one of the most important discoveries in the history of science is gonna lose his job

I've a friend who needs help at his sawmill...suppose he's got anything against eating sawdust and shittin' 2x4's?

"I say Nulli is another big government taxpayer feeding parasite."

Yeah, well you say a lot of lunatic shit.

Come to think of it, Nulli sounds like Michelle Obama.

Michelle Obama: "Don't Go Into Corporate America

Yeah, well you say a lot of lunatic shit.

Posted by nullifidian at 2008-03-02 09:05 PM


That Marxism doesn't and can't be made to work? Like buy silver? Like this economy is heading for a deep economic depression? OK if you say so.

"Like this economy is heading for a deep economic depression? "

There could be another major crisis of capitalism, sure. That's what capitalism is. A boom and bust system.

No economic system is immune from human stupidity and incompetence. This is a government failure crises.
You aren't capable of seeing what those failures are and neither is the Washington gang.

"This is a government failure crises."

To the extent that the U.S. government is of capitalists, for capitalists, and by capitalists, then yes.

""I say Zit is another big government taxpayer feeding parasite."

Yeah, well I say Ray is another corporate loving, gold-hoarding Exxon apologist.

Posted by nullifidian "

Funny.
I'm out more money from my pocket than anyone else on this shot. But then I have the only pictures.


Happy extinction, morons, you deserve it.

Give me a break! We have a highly regulated economy, including our banking system. This is not free market capitalism by any stretch of the imagination. It's more of a fascist version of capitalism coupled with a welfare-warfare economy that just overwhelms whatever wealth can produced by the remaining shreds of capitalism.

Socialism never did have a viable theory of wealth production as you have proved so many times. Without the wealth producing output from honest capital activity, it stands exposed for the fraud it is.

Till next time.

Happy extinction, morons, you deserve it.

Posted by Zatoichi at 2008-03-02 09:44 PM


With that fat gut you have, you'll be extinct long before me.

1896
Arrhenius publishes first calculation of global warming from human emissions of CO2.
www.aip.org

Posted by Zatoichi
* * * *

Why haven't you ever posted that before? That changes EVERYTHING!!!! I'm a believer now!!

Posted by jestgettinalong at 2008-03-02 09:24 AM

Why would you send ol' Spudsie to Thailand? He won't be able to get laid there either. He's impotent, you know.


Caution. Caution. I think that I heard someplace that accusing someone of impotence was actionable at law, and that the truth of the statement in such a case, was not a defense.

Oh. Oh.

A lot of posters here are venerating the ideas of old Popper.

Popper says it, so it's valid. Got it.

Maunder Minimum. Sunspot activity. Previous observations.

Climate Skeptics Seize on Cold Spell

so on every thread about warming...

Climate Believers Seize on Warm Spell

The next few years will be interesting. The earth just recorded an unprecedented drop in global temperature over the last 12 months. -Jeff


This just can't be, or can it?

All over-reacting aside, if CO2 was the prime driver of global temperature, it wouldn't be cooling because CO2 levels are higher this year than last.

The whole short-term trick is what brought on the Human Caused Global Warming hoax. If you look at the temperature history of the earth's history, we are in a very cold period.. Those are the facts. Only when you throw out all the data except for the last 50 years, cook that data, and make inaccurate graphs, do you find a cause for human-induced global warming. The position is fraudulent.

If the globe is in a long-term warming trend, that would be good. It is patently not human-induced. Unfortunately, it is also not true in the long term.

As long as we have continents over poles, we have cold periods. That's been shown over and over in the past. Bad luck for us. Antarctica is still in place.

Egads.

The earth IS getting hotter AND colder. Higher highs, lower lows and stormier storms.

Can we all just take a moment---in the name of peace, harmony, and goodwill---to grasp the utter fucking stupidity of that sentence?

actually it is pinche..they are now looking at chaos theory as a possible explanation to such pheneom..

check out this..

Chaos by James Gleick
www.amazon.com

it is a good bk for the lay person.

The next few years will be interesting. The earth just recorded an unprecedented drop in global temperature over the last 12 months. -Jeff


This just can't be, or can it?

Posted by JMFJ

the trend is hotter dudes. I would recommend a crash course in SPC to have a better grasp on statistics.
Dr Demming would be a Climate change proponent.

Legio,

I did SPC for a living before I started teaching science. Know all about it. Whether or not the trend is hotter depends upon how you parse the data and what you view as "normal" climate. It also depends upon the accuracy of the data itself, which is quite questionable, if you know anything about weather temperature stations and where to find them.

As far as projecting climate, the models are woefully inaccurate because they presume a steady sun and an exaggerated greenhouse effect from CO2. Climatology is WAY too new a science to produce accurate simulations. Good SPC requires a thorough understanding of the process in order to determine what normal variability is. Climatologists are no where NEAR such an understanding.

Just look at the data for the last 4 billion years or so. It oscillates (not regularly) between 12 and 22 C.

Life has persisted throughout all these temperature ranges, but it did struggle at 22. The last 2 million years, we've been for the most part down near 12, with the result that the rule for this period is large polar ice caps. The dynamic that made this happen is still in place...a large land mass over the south pole. That's still the case, so we can expect more of the same. There have been warmups due to changes in sun output, earth's motions, and ocean currents, but the steady rise in CO2 emissions by humans has not led to anything like a steady rise in global temperatures. In fact, it has had no discernable effect at all, because other factors not in human control have much larger effects.

Greenland was good farmland when the Vikings settled it. It was also much warmer there in the 1940's. Human CO2 has essentially no role in global temperature changes.

and an unprecedented 1 degree drop in the average. If the temps are down they cant be up. Anyone care to expalain the sudden loss of Heat? didnt thinks so.

Repeating the same crap over and over won't make it true. 2007 was the second hottest year on record, after 2005 and before 1998.

"Tuesday, January 08, 2008
Dec 2007 Temperature

NASA GISS is out with their global surface temperature anomaly for last month: +0.60C above the base period (1951-1980).

That makes 2007 the second warmest year on record, +0.73C, after only 2005. Note: it was warmer, though only 0.01C, than 1998. And it was by far the warmest winter. January 2007 was the warmest month since records have been kept, relative to its average."

davidappell.blogspot.com

Here are the temperature records data.giss.nasa.gov you do the math.

Ten warmest years on record with temperature anomaly in C.

2005, +.76
2007, +.73
1998, +.71
2002, +.69
2003, +.67
2006, +.66
2004, +.60
2001, +.57
1990, +.48
1995, +.46

Data: data.giss.nasa.gov

Ten coldest:

1918, -.34
1903, -.35
1907, -.39
1893, -.40
1892, -.41
1904, -.42
1884, -.43
1917, -.46
1887, -.47
1891, -.56

Zat,



I don't believe that anyone is debating your numbers that things have warmed. The debate is over the degree of influence man has had on it, vs larger scale climatic influences.

From a scientific standpoint, I'm not sold on anything yet, there isn't enough data to prove anything. The models are right, but there isn't a clear cut 'cause' other than man...though there are many compelling possibilities.


To me, it's merely the science, and to call this one a closed book, and not openly debate the theories is ridiculous.

kwrx25, BS Meteorology....

JMFJ,

By "on record", what time period are we talking about? If I chose to take as my sample today, for example (69 balmy degrees here in Cincinnati), then my average would be 69 and I'd go from there.

If I take the last 50 years, I'd have a different average.

If I take the last 200 years, I'd have a different average.

If I take the last 1000 years, I'd have a different average.

If I take the last 1,000,000 years, I'd have a different average.

If I take the last 1,000,000,000, I'd have a different average.

Depending upon how broad a perspective you take, there is either a problem or there isn't. Either the world is supposed to be cold, as Al Gore assumes, or it's not, as a sensible Earth Scientist would.

Aside from the perspective taken, which clearly should include at least the last 2 million years when the ice age we're in started, you also must actually look at how the data was acquired.

The data based on weather service stations is nearly useless, because the temperatures have trended higher over the years due to building things like suburbs and parking lots around what 80 years ago were isolated, rural weather stations.

The reliable data now is taken from satellites, which do not show this warming trend.

Regardless of data chosen, you have to look at how the earth system works. CO2 is simply a minimal warming effect compared to sun output, water, methane, continental placement, ocean current routes, volcanic activity, plants available, earth orbit shape, earth axial tilt, earth axial direction, cloud formation, etc.

You can orgue if you want that the globe is getting warmer or colder. Scientifically, you can not legitimately argue that human CO2 emissions play a role.

"We don't really have the modeling capability to predict localized weather patterns beyond the next 48 hours, but we're going to fill your bored little heads with visions of ecological apocalypse NOW; ergo society needs to immediately re-conform itself to our [demonstrably failed]understanding of how human beings should conduct themselves."


There are standard forecast models that go to 7-8 days

www.hpc.ncep.noaa.gov

and extended forecasts that go to 16 days or 384 hours

www.arl.noaa.gov

they are actually fairly accurate...

since you didn't do your homework on the basic facts I would assume the rest or your rant is full of crap also.

Ol' Zat keeps posting the same ol' sh** and totally ignores the corrections to his numbers. If NASA had bad figures for the U.S. I suspect there were errors in the figures for the whole world too.


"NASA made a correction not only on their own web page, attributing the discovery to McIntyre, but NASA also issued a corrected set of temperature anomaly data which you can see here:
data.giss.nasa.gov
Steve McIntyre posted this data from NASA's newly published data set from Goddard Institute of Space Studies (GISS) These numbers represent deviation from the mean temperature calculated from temperature measurement stations throughout the USA.

According to the new data published by NASA, 1998 is no longer the hottest year ever. 1934 is.
Four of the top 10 years of US CONUS high temperature deviations are now from the 1930s: 1934, 1931, 1938 and 1939, while only 3 of the top 10 are from the last 10 years (1998, 2006, 1999). Several years (2000, 2002, 2003, 2004) fell well down the leaderboard, behind even 1900. (World rankings of temperature are calculated separately.)"

"There are standard forecast models that go to 7-8 days

www.hpc.ncep.noaa.gov

and extended forecasts that go to 16 days or 384 hours

www.arl.noaa.gov

they are actually fairly accurate...

since you didn't do your homework on the basic facts I would assume the rest or your rant is full of crap also."

Donner boy....

speaking as a meteorologist...all the models that go beyond 2 1/2 days fall apart quickly...

any self respecting weather forecaster will tell you that anything beyond that timeframe becomes very generalized, and the definitions of accurate are sketchy at best...

Donnerboy,

Accurate? How come these local weather schmucks never get the weekly forecast right even? The use the same models, except they actually wait to see what's coming before they guess.

How come everybody got the hurriane forecasts for just last year totally wrong?

The climate models used to project global temperatures are utterly meaningless. That is, if you pay attention to how they calculate their predictions.

Satellite observations:

Satellite measurements of the Earth's microwave emissions are a crucial element in the development of an accurate system for long-term monitoring of atmospheric temperature. Satellites provide global coverage at much higher densities than attainable with in situ observations. In situ observations also suffer from non-uniform temporal coverage and undocumented changes in the radiosonde instrumentation used that can lead to local biases and increased uncertainty. The Microwave Sounding Units (MSU) operating on NOAA polar-orbiting platforms have been the principal sources of satellite temperature profiles for the past two decades. The MSUs are cross-track scanners with measurements of microwave radiance in four channels ranging from 50.3 to 57.95 GHz on the lower shoulder of the Oxygen absorption band. These four channels measure the atmospheric temperature in four thick layers spanning the surface through the stratosphere.
One of the goals of our research is to provide a complete and independent analysis as a check of these important results. We have found that the temperature of the middle troposphere is warming by approximately 0.115 K/decade . We calculate that MSU channel TMT data published by Christy and Spencer (vortex.nsstc.uah.edu/data/
msu/t2/) contains a smaller warming trend of approximately 0.054 K/decade .
Christy and Spencer also developed the first version of the TLT dataset. For a global average extending from 70S to 82.5N, we find a warming trend of 0.180 K/decade , while Christy and Spencer (version 5.2) find a warming trend of 0.147 K/decade .
A global map of 29-year MSU/AMSU channel TMT trends shows large regions of significant warming over eastern and central Asia, and northern Canada, cooling over the southern oceans, with moderate warming over most other regions. A map of channel TLT trends shows a very similar pattern, but with more pronounced mid-latitude warming.
www.remss.com

Wow, getting technical in here. Not surprising since the weather is very complex. We are in a La Nina year where the ocean temps cool which generally causes harsh winters and stormy springs. So if this spring follows history and storms a lot the Global Warming alarmists will be crediting the above normal storm activity as "Global Warming caused." By the way, storms need both cold air and warm air to mix more than causes more storms, not just warmer air...lol

Satellite measurements of the Earth's microwave emissions are a crucial element in the development of an accurate system for long-term monitoring of atmospheric temperature. Satellites provide global coverage at much higher densities than attainable with in situ observations

~FYI

How dare you interject FACTS nito a debate on the effects of Global Warming/ Climate Change!!!1!

Don't you know that Global Warming Deniers only listen to pseudo facts spewed by Exxon's pseudo scientists?

Now yer just gonna get them all confused.

/Even moreso than they already are, obviously.

^_^

Be Well.

Climate models:
ScienceDaily (Jun. 19, 2007) -- Climate models are reliable tools that help researchers better understand the observed record of ocean warming and variability.
That's the finding of a group of Livermore scientists, who in collaboration with colleagues at Scripps Institution of Oceanography, had earlier established that climate models can replicate the ocean warming observed during the latter half of the 20th century, and that most of this recent warming is caused by human activities.
The observational record also shows substantial variability in ocean heat content on interannual-to-decadal time scales. The new research by Livermore scientists demonstrates that climate models represent this variability much more realistically than previously believed.
Using 13 numerical climate models, the researchers found that the apparent discrepancies between modeled and observed variability can be explained by accounting for changes in observational coverage and instrumentation and by including the effects of volcanic eruptions.

speaking as a meteorologist...all the models that go beyond 2 1/2 days fall apart quickly...

models are only as good as the data that is ingested and the algorithms used. Thats where the forecasters knowledge and skill comes into play...

so kwrx25 are you saying as a meteorologist you can't forecast more than 2 1/2 days out? Sounds like you are one of the local weather schmucks forecasting for Jonryker.

We have better forecasters here in my area. I have seen them forecast accurately 7 days out. Are they ALWAYS accurate? Nope... sometimes too many butterflies are flapping somewhere that were not accounted for...

fact is our models get more accurate every year as our satellite and ground based sensors get better and the algorithms get more accurate. But, basically all models deteriorate over time as more and more variables be unaccounted for.

try this site for yourself and see how accurate is over a week period and you will see...

www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov

As I believe I have mentioned previously, climate change science is still in its early stages. There is much that is still not known regarding how the climate works. Of necessity, climate models will reflect this. However, I believe it is important to study climate change, especially since I, and all of my friends, have noticed how the weather has changed in the last 20 years. While this proves nothing, it does say that the issue should be investigated. Dismissing everything out of hand serves no purpose.

Pointing out that similar climate has occurred in the past is like having 2 people go from Baltimore to NYC, one in one day, the other in one hour. Both arrived there. Not the point. Why did one arrive quicker?

Pointing out shortcomings is necessary and required. It is not, however, proof of meaninglessness of the research or on-going evaluations.

BTW, those who are fixated on Al Gore as the representative of climate change, please ignore all of my posts. I would not wish to interfere with the usual DR bashing.

DonnerBoy,

Did I ever say that _I_ wasn't accurate past 2 1/2 days?

no

I said the models quickly went to shit after that period of time. Forecasting is as much an art as it is a science...which is why some are better than others at it, and why some can get pretty good at going longer ranges out, and as you point out still not always be right.

the facts are that the models go to crap after a few days... I think your own posts pretty much say as much.

now take models that try and predict the global climate, YEARS out, with much more variables to account for, and many not accounted for.....it's laughable.

DonnerBoy,

the more I digest what you are saying...

all I EVER hear about my profession:

"Gee, must be nice to never have to be right"

this is universal no matter where I am...

I find it impossible to believe that you are going to argue that the models we forecasters use are so accurate as to be evidence that global climate models are accurate years out, while at the same time the entire populous believes that Meteorologists suck at forecasting the weather.


The two cannot coexist.

I find it impossible to believe that you are going to argue that the models we forecasters use are so accurate as to be evidence that global climate models are accurate years out...

you find it impossible because I never said that...

I am only telling you the 7-8 models are getting better and they are only as good as the data they ingest and the skill of those interpreting them.

In the same way we ARE getting better at long range climate models too... but we are definitely not perfect yet.... too many damn butterflies!

To be clear all models deteriorate as you move into the future ... it is the nature of forecasting anything... that does not mean you cannot predict trends... but your prediction is only as good as the data and variables you use to make those predictions.

7-8 models = 7-8 day models


Don't you know that Global Warming Deniers only listen to pseudo facts spewed by Exxon's pseudo scientists?


Actually the only "facts" I've seen are those offered up by Al Gore and his minions. I don't listen to "conservative" talk radio. I haven't watched more than a consecutive hour of television in 3 years.

So my opinion on all of this comes from Al Gore and his lack of concern for setting an example. For instance, his jet-setting across the planet in a private jet when commercial transportation would have been sufficient.

Or perhaps his $30,000 light bill. I wonder if we can get a follow up on his 20 room home or his heated pool-house.

How about
this picture? Now, personally, I have 2 24" dell flatscreen monitors. Not because of need, but I like to have one in portrait mode and the other in landscape. I watch movies on one and read/chat on the other.

Anyway explain to me how a guy who's so concerned about the way things are going in terms of "global warming" can justify using 3 - 30" Apple Cinema Diplays? Meanwhile, in the background, he has what appears to be a 34 or 42 inch flatscreen tv going in the background.

I just don't think he believes it himself, so I have a hard time jumping in line behind him. So if you have an intelligent answer other than "duh, he can cause he can afford it", I'd love to hear it.

Axiom

Yes, it is all a giant conspiracy to get you to give your money away. Those damn scientists--always after your lucky charms.

It is impossible for man to have any effect on the atmosphere. Those large dark clouds hanging over cities aren't smog---they are groups of angels watching over the chosen.

You are an idiot.

Manmade global warming is such a crock. When there are cold snaps, the global warming kooks are quiet. When there are hot deals, they are out calling for the end of the world.

Could you image if the liberal global kooks were around during the Dust Bowl in the early 1930's? Hundreds of thousands left their homes and had to fight to survive. Now with the population explosion and cars, SUV's, 18 wheel trucks, trains, planes, and factories everywhere somehow the climate has actually gotten BETTER now. Hmmm.


Axiom

Yes, it is all a giant conspiracy to get you to give your money away. Those damn scientists--always after your lucky charms.

It is impossible for man to have any effect on the atmosphere. Those large dark clouds hanging over cities aren't smog---they are groups of angels watching over the chosen.

You are an idiot.


Coming from a guy who will believe in global warming, no questions asked while at the same time convinced that we didn't actually land on the moon, being called an idiot is a compliment.

Have you ever noticed that those large, dark clouds of smog hovering over cities always tend to be hovering over, ahem, cities in states that lean to the left?

I've never said that it's impossible for man to have no effect on the climate. I said I am not convinced by your chosen hero. And what's with the Angels? I don't have any religious leanings. Grasping at straws, as usual.

Hey, I have an idea. Why don't you tell me how I should have my right to vote revoked and should be stoned to death? The last time you said it, you really looked like a reasonable, sensible human.

For a skeptic, you're fucking gullible.

As far as projecting climate, the models are woefully inaccurate because they presume a steady sun and an exaggerated greenhouse effect from CO2. Climatology is WAY too new a science to produce accurate simulations. Good SPC requires a thorough understanding of the process in order to determine what normal variability is. Climatologists are no where NEAR such an understanding.

absolute BS.. You can take core samples for the last 400K years to determine CO2 concentrations as well as other atmospheric concentration of gases to determine "trend" which is btw 7 continuous points in a row.

the trend for temperature on average is higher and "trending" upward. CO2 is "trending" upward as well.

You can orgue if you want that the globe is getting warmer or colder. Scientifically, you can not legitimately argue that human CO2 emissions play a role.

Posted by jonryker

we have another doubter.. bet good money a ID proponent as well

Axiom

Yes, it is all a giant conspiracy to get you to give your money away. Those damn scientists--always after your lucky charms.

It is impossible for man to have any effect on the atmosphere. Those large dark clouds hanging over cities aren't smog---they are groups of angels watching over the chosen.

You are an idiot.

Posted by Buffalo_Bob

you have a better chance of shitting a gold brick before getting the nay sayers to even remotely admit humans might have an affect on climate. 6 billion humans and counting not including the industry that releases carbon plus agriculture release from stored carbon by tilling the soil.

naaaah.. its easier on the conscience and pocket book to deny and call bullshit.


naaaah.. its easier on the conscience and pocket book to deny and call bullshit.


Well, let's see.

Myself and family members grow our own vegetables. So I don't have to rely on factory farms for that part of our diet. I only buy meat from the local meat packer. It's mostly locally grown cattle, pork and poultry. If I want fish, I have a river a few miles away that I can walk to.

I carpool with 3 other people to work, every day. Up until last summer, I hadn't owned a car in 3 years because I lived in a city with mass transportation or I would ride a bike or walk to work or the grocery store.

Now that I do have a car, I drive probably 5 miles a week unless it's my week to drive the carpool. Then it's roughly 40 miles to work and back.

My heater is set on 65. If I'm chilly, I put on a sweater. My ac will be set to the normal 76 or so.

So tell me, oh self-righteous asshat, what does your "carbon footprint" look like? Hell, I'm not even trying to be "green", and I can almost guarantee that I have lower emissions and waste production than any of the people on this thread.

Are you making an attempt to lower your own emissions? Or are your attempts limited to your bitching and moaning about my doubts of global warming on this public forum?

I bet I can guess which one you do more of.

The only argument that you and others like you can fall back on is that I must believe in some invisible sky wizard who won't let the world end until he/she/it is good and ready.

Let me assure you. My skepticisms is based on my own observations and judgment. Not on those written in a book. And definitely not those coming from a talking head who's more interested in furthering his legacy than he is in making real change.

Axiom,

I'm quite certain that the issue at hand isn't YOUR carbon footprint. There are several people who don't think global warming is man-made, on this thread alone, who profess that they footprint is low and that they're doing more than those who believe global warming is real.

That's not the point. The point of the thread is that there are people who don't believe, who aren't doing anything to reduce their footprint, who simply refuse to see the data impartially. Many here are so bent on sticking to party lines that they immediately regurge whatever the argument of the day is for their party. I suppose that regurgitation swings both ways (not a pleasant thought) but IMHO the correlation to the increase in atmospheric CO2 and Methane since the beginning of the industrial revolution, and considering that those particulates and the temperature increased at the same rate, is evidence enough for me.

www.eia.doe.gov

IMHO the correlation to the increase in atmospheric CO2 and Methane since the beginning of the industrial revolution, and considering that those particulates and the temperature increased at the same rate, is evidence enough for me.


It's refreshing to see someone voice their opinion on the subject without calling calling those who disagree a moron or idiot. I don't agree with your opinion, but I thank you for giving it in a civil manner.

Thanks for the nod Goat. I know I can expect the same civility from you and not be disappointed.

Global warming is a hot topic (among many on the retort...), and I know people's tempers flare and sensitivities get offended, but too often many jump straight to calling names, and I think that cheapens the debate. Not to mention anything else that leaves their fingers and enters the ether simply gets ignored.


That's not the point.


My point, as it has always been, is that if the folks on the DR are not practicing what they preach, they are hypocrites. Being hypocrites they have absolutely no right to stand in criticism of the others here who disagree with the theories of global warming.

Having good intentions isn't good enough. If you aren't make the same sacrifices that you say others should be making, you are no better than those who do not believe that global warming is real.

You see, I don't disbelieve in climate change. Since grade school up through college I had to take science classes. I've also had to take some history and geography classes along the way. One thing I've gleaned from those classes is that the earth is constantly changing.

Could mankind be contributing to the change? Sure, I can believe that. All action has consequences. But are we effecting the planet to the extent that Al Gore, Buffalo Bob, Legio, Zatoichi and others here profess? I don't think so, and there really is no way to prove it one way or the other.

Some folks should face facts. Mankind only has a limited amount of time on this rock. Just as the dinosaurs and who knows what else before us, we will all die out. Whether that is 20 years from now or 20 million, none of you can accurately predict.

Just as the guy at work who likes to quote scripture from the Bible to me, regurgitating the same "facts" that I've read before is not going to convince me. You want to convince me? Start taking real action.

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