Panamanian achor baby!

I'm no fan of McCain, but only fools would attempt to make an issue out of this.

His parents (father in the Navy) were abroad on behalf of the United States government. He is a natural born citizen for constitutional purposes.

Of course if Kris_P_Box_Itch had his way I don't think Grandpa John would be eligible.

I'm no fan of McCain, but only fools would attempt to make an issue out of this.



Posted by Dave


Why? I don't think it's an issue, either (unless he is also a citizen of Panama under the law), but why not clarify it?

What???? John McCain isn't an American....OMG!!!!

Really, don't people have more important things to think about.

Hey, we can make it like the Jews. If the vagina is an American citizen, so is the baby.

I am certainly not a McCain fan but this is just silly. He was born on a US military base. He is a 'natural born citizen' of the United States.

Damn foreigners trying to take over our land! I think I saw a photo of McCain in traditional Panamanian garb...

Does "natural born" rule out babies born via Caesarean section?

Being born of an American parent (only one) is sufficient to convey U.S. citizenship, thus McCain is an American. "Natural" born (Supreme Court, are you paying attention?) means not naturalized, plain and simple. To convey any other meaning would disqualify the children of our military and our diplomats serving their country overseas. Being born on a military installation has no meaning in this issue.

As for the Republican Supreme Court, they would, at this stage of the game, OK McCain if he was born in China of Japanese parents.

The Toad

Wonderful! This is the most interesting issue to come out of this race!

Gives new hope to Puerto Ricans, Guamanians and other citizens of US territory!

"...but why not clarify it?"

No offence, but there's nothing to clarify, only a fool would think there is.

The Toad"

Hi, don't be offended if someone calls me 'toad' or 'toady', okay? It comes with the territory when your nickname is 'tad' ...

Gee, I guess Glen Beck wasn't kidding when he refered to John McCain as Juan McCain.

Ok, what if someone was born in Guantanamo to military parents? Would they be "natural-born" ? According to the neocon logic that Gtmo is not under US jurisdiction the answer woudl have to be 'no".

You cons can't have it bout ways, is a military base under US jurisdiction or not? It if is, then I would think that Juan McCain can be prez, otherwise, he can not.

His parents (father in the Navy) were abroad on behalf of the United States government. He is a natural born citizen for constitutional purposes.

This story suggests that it's not a settled issue where the Constitution is concerned. If someone challenges McCain's right to run, I expect the Supreme Court would settle the matter in the affirmative. But it's an interesting question.

I had two children born while I was stationed in Germany. While under orders of the US government, a child born overseas of two American parents are considered natural-born US citizens, and are NOT eligible for citizenship in the country where the hospital is.

It gets complicated, though, in the event that a servicemember is married to a native spouse. That happens quite a bit, actually. And in that case the parents have to decide which citizenship to opt for. Usually, again, they elect US citizenship for the child, but not always.

So unless McCain's mother is Panamanian--doubtful, because the article would have mentioned it--this isn't an issue.

Besides--at the time McCain was born, wasn't the Panama Canal Zone considered US territory? It was during the Carter Administration that we gave it back.

John Pedro McCain




- Billy Cunningham

"...but why not clarify it?"

No offence, but there's nothing to clarify, only a fool would think there is.


Posted by Dave at


I meant by force of law and/or court ruling.

And just because you say so, doesn't make it so (even though I agree with the point) - there actually is some difference opinion among constitutional scholars, your categorical dismissal notwithstanding.

This is what happens when we have troops spread thorughout the world meddiling our nose in other country's business. If we did not have a interventionist foreign policy, this would not be an issue because we would not have bases in foreign lands where babies are being born.

You cons can't have it bout ways, is a military base under US jurisdiction or not? It if is, then I would think that Juan McCain can be prez, otherwise, he can not.

Posted by member2586 at 2008-02-28 10:35 AM | Reply

The facility is under US jurisdiction, but the prisoners are not under US civilian law. BTW, an illegal alien on American soil is also not entitled to full Constitutional protection. But hey, keep trying

Straining at gnats.

I think it's a bigger issue that he was born in 1936.

Face it, his VP is going to get a lot of scrutiny. Republicans can barely come up with a single candidate most people would find acceptable, much less two.

JC's new campaign song!

JM!

This is nonsense. We don't need to waste our time debating whether or not McCain is constitutionally qualified to be President; what the hell does "natural-born" mean anyway? He was born to American parents on an American military base which makes him an American unless you're a moron.

But the media and punditocracy have now found another non-issue to waste everybody's time with instead of discussing real issues like Iraq, the economy and health care where there are very real policy and philosophical differences which will affect us all. This will last a few days then they'll find something else to waste everybody's time on.

Rogers, I am not even sure the Supreme Court would take up the issue unless the appellate court ruled that he wasn't a natural born citizen.

I wonder if anyone will bring suit, maybe the old Huckster will.

and if Barack Obama was born on a military base in panama....

Hey, Bush was naturally spawned, so why not make another exception.

and if Barack Obama was born on a military base in panama....

It goes without saying that anyone with a non-European name is an American in name only.

This is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. He's eligible. Not the best choice available this time out, but eligibility is not the issue.

"...there actually is some difference opinion among constitutional scholars..."

Only the really, really stupid ones.

well it wasnt even a good try now was it? but it is only one of the first vollys in atempts to get at him in anyway.
I am just damn glad that my side doesnt do anything like this....wink wink......

Wait... So if everyone here can come up with a different definition of "natural born" while other conced that they don't themselves know----why shouldn't this issue be submitted to the Supreme Court for review?

This is our CONSTITUTION people, not just a "god-damn piece of paper". If we're going to use our military to tell people to run their country like ours, we should probably make sure we follow our own rules.


If i were to rule on this issue, i'd probably come out for McCain. But that doesn't mean this issue shouldn't be addressed.

BL2-

It probably was your side.

There was something written in about 1790 that covers McBush. He may have read the draft version before it was signed into law. If his parents were American...

RightisRight,
Just a note ... Some countries, as does the U.S., conveys citizenship by place of birth, regardless of the citizenship of the parents. Germany does not. Germany citizenship is conveyed by blood, not place of birth (although changes are being made). Thus, a child born say in France of US parents (or even one parent) may have dual citizenship.

The one exception to this (there may be more), children of diplomats assigned to an embassy overseas do not get the citizenship of the country where the birth takes place. For example, children of a German diplomat assigned to the German Embassy in Washington, DC and born in the US are NOT US citizens, but if the German parents are assigned to a consulate, then the child has dual citizenship.

Ain't it fun? The Toad

"Panama Red" McCain, the Manchurian candidate.

Sorry to disagree with everyone, but the Constitution is not "Nonsense". It may sometimes not make any SENSE, but that is a whole other argument.

As to whether John McCain will be ruled eligible, our new Right Wing Activist Supreme Court will ensure that so the arguement is moot anyway.

The problem comes with the phrase "Natural Born", as in being born in a STATE of the Union at the time of birth. That was deliberately placed into the Constitution to prevent English born persons from ever achieving the Presidency and then perhaps reuniting the USA with Mother England.
So technically, ANYONE who is not born in the physical Unites States is ineligible, which would have included those cited in the article such as Goldwater, Roosevelt Jr, etc.
That would also eliminate any Native American born on a Reservation since Reservation land is technically recognized as soverign to the tribe in question and not the USA. That is why there are over 500 treaties with various tribes. Thus the Casinos in states where gambling is otherwise illegal, etc.

To say that Constitutional scholars are stupid to say this is itself stupid. Again, like it or not, it is our Constituion. I don't see the same derogatory commentary towards Scholars who uphold the right for private citizens to bear arms even though it is quite clear that the Second Amendment has to do with State Militias and not private citizen ownership of weapons. It all depends upon who's goose is being cooked when you look at Constitutional phrasiology, same as the Bible. In the Bible the Lord says the World was created in seven days, but without a Sun, how long was a day? 24 hours or a billion years?

This does bring up a question for the future though. In this modern age of artificial insimination, if the egg were donated by a woman not an American citizen and the sperm were donated by a man also not a citizen, would the resulting child be eligible to be President? What makes that any different from Arnie or others who were concieved outside of the USA.
Additionally, what about persons concieved outside of the USA but the birth occurring in the USA?
This could be the Hispanics who represent the majority of births in some Texas hospitals, who have both parents citizens of Mexico or Hoonymoon couples who are both American but concieve of their child while on honeymooning anywhere outside of the USA?

Or a child concieved in the USA by native born American citizens but the birth takes place outside of the USA because of some birthing difficulty and the only place where this can be resolved is in a hospital in another country?

The possibilities are endless, to say the least.

Last, there is the Internet rumor circulating that Barack "Slumlord Lover" Obama was not born in Hawaii, but instead in the Sandwich Islands. I haven't found anything to substantiate this but what if he were? His Father wasn't an American citizen, being a Kenyan citizen. His Mother was a native born citizen, being born in the USA but who knows if she changed citizenship or not? I do know that after divorcing Obama's Father she married an Indonesian but don't know if she changed citzenship to Indonesian and if she did, what was her citizensip was prior to that.

Another tale with some interesting twists and turns that could end up in front of the Supreme Court and if so, will meet a far less freindly panel than McCain would... to say the least.

This is importent stuff. Was Hawaii a state when Barrack Obama was born? Were either of his parents Americans?

FWTHOM - Yes, and yes.

This is importent stuff. Was Hawaii a state when Barrack Obama was born? Were either of his parents Americans?

I see. So it is meaningless nitpicking when discussing McCain (agreed) but if Hawaii wasn't a state when Obama was born (it was), it's vitally important?

Once again, the story is: 1936. When McCain was Obama's age, Nancy Reagan was picking out new china in the Blue Room.

Apparently the reporter CARL HULSE and the NYT times are confused. Thus another attempt at a hit piece. Why check the facts they ask, let's put it out and see what kind of crap we can stir up. At the rate they are going they will be out of the reporting business soon.

The 14th Amendment defines citizenship this way: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." But even this does not get specific enough. As usual, the Constitution provides the framework for the law, but it is the law that fills in the gaps.

Currently, Title 8 of the U.S. Code fills in those gaps. Section 1401 defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:"

* Anyone born inside the United States
* Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe
* Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national
* Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year
* Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
* A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S.

Anyone falling into these categories is considered natural-born, and is eligible to run for President or Vice President. These provisions allow the children of military families to be considered natural-born, for example.

"The problem comes with the phrase "Natural Born", as in being born in a STATE of the Union at the time of birth. That was deliberately placed into the Constitution to prevent English born persons from ever achieving the Presidency and then perhaps reuniting the USA with Mother England.
So technically, ANYONE who is not born in the physical Unites States is ineligible, which would have included those cited in the article such as Goldwater, Roosevelt Jr, etc. "

Ironic. According to this, McCain can't run for president but an anchor-baby born of illegal alien parents can?

What about the 14th Amendment? Are not military bases under US jurisdiction?

" Are not military bases under US jurisdiction?"

Yeah, and I know this because my ex was born in Iwokuni, Japan. She was getting a passport and needed her birth certificate - the State Department sent her a copy.

I love this issue. In the final analysis, I'd have to say that McCain is eligible, but the status of children of citizens born abroad is facinating.

I think that the phrase "natural born" meant more than "native born" at the time the Constitution was ratified. At common law the phrase meant, more or less, that one was born owing a natural allegience to a sovereign. That allegience could be as a result of being born within a sovereign's jurisdiction (with some exceptions), or being born to someone who owed allegience to the sovereign (also with some exceptions). That children of subjects born abroad were natural born subjects of the English crown was recognized as early as 1350. It concept was certainly known to the founders. Unfortunately, the laws of the States were not in conformity and there is no consensus as to which common law or statutory laws were received by the states when they seceded from the United Kingdom.

To say that natural born meant only born within the territory of the United States, however, really glosses over the complexity of the common law question. The first Congress, perhaps realizing that nobody really knew what natural born meant, passed a law that purported to give natural born status to children born abroad to citizens. Whether or not have the authority to legislatively change the common law meaning of the term natural born (whatever that was) as it was adopted notwithstanding, the passage of this act in 1790 may give us insight into what they meant when they wrote natural born. That is, even if the Naturalization Act of 1790 were unconstitutional (for various reasons), it may be evidence that the framers at the time of adoption intended to include children born abroad to citizens.

The phrase means, or should mean, whatever it meant in 1787. Unfortuantely no one can say difinitively what that was.

And now that we're on the subject of federal citizenship, a million more questions and ambiguities spring to mind...

This is nonsense. We don't need to waste our time debating whether or not McCain is constitutionally qualified to be President; what the hell does "natural-born" mean anyway? He was born to American parents on an American military base which makes him an American unless you're a moron.

Posted by BlueInBushland at 2008-02-28 10:57 AM

So if McCain was a moron he wouldn't be an American citizen?

"Last, there is the Internet rumor circulating that Barack "Slumlord Lover" Obama was not born in Hawaii, but instead in the Sandwich Islands. I haven't found anything to substantiate this but what if he were? His Father wasn't an American citizen, being a Kenyan citizen. His Mother was a native born citizen, being born in the USA but who knows if she changed citizenship or not? I do know that after divorcing Obama's Father she married an Indonesian but don't know if she changed citzenship to Indonesian and if she did, what was her citizensip was prior to that."

Jesus!!! Hey, Obama could have been born on Mars, there is no proof he wasn't.
You put so much wishful thinking in your post that it's hilarious.

"So if McCain was a moron he wouldn't be an American citizen?"

I think that sums it up.

but bush is an american citizen

The Sandwich Isles? That gets a FF!

p.s. - look it up!

The Sandwich Isles?

it depends on if the Sandwich had America cheese or not.

Really, don't people have more important things to think about.

Posted by danni at 2008-02-28 09:59 AM

Yes, back onto the baseball steroid hearings and video tape gate!

Ironic. According to this, McCain can't run for president but an anchor-baby born of illegal alien parents can?


I think Lou Dobb's head would explode.

"That would also eliminate any Native American born on a Reservation since Reservation land is technically recognized as soverign to the tribe in question and not the USA."

Well, it's a relief to know we won't have a thievin' redskin in office anytime soon. Although, I was kinda hoping someone would build a casino a little closer to my home.

FF for 726!

I posted about this weeks ago..no one cared then and not really caring about it now.


Murphy

McCain came into this world via the Panama Birth Canal?

Neat-o!

"Native born American" simply means that one was born a citizen and didn't hafta naturalise. McCain was born to two American citizens (both in the Military) on a US Army base and thus was born an American citizen thus this is really a non-story. Ahnold Schwarzeneggar was born in Austria to Austrian parents and he naturalised later on as an American which means he can never become POTUS w/o an ammendment to the Constitution.

A man, a plan, a canal, Panama.

/Spud luffs palindromes!

Be Well.

/Cue the Van Halen...

this is silly to even talk about in the face of a mexican women being able to step across the rio grande, drop a kid and that kid is a citizen when this son of a naval officer serving his country has a kid and it becomes some kind of issue. but thats politics, I guess.

Danni,

No "wishful thinking" in my post.

I was merely posting the various possibilities that this particular requirement of a President give rise to. Personally I like the egg and sperm question far more. Just having the Supreme Court deciding the residence of an egg and a sperm donated to make a baby that grows up to be elected President has to be hillarious.

I don't believe Obama was born in the Sandwich Islands nor that his Mother had given up her citizenship when she married his Father.
Again, was just posting as many possibilities as I could think of at the moment to give folks something to think abaout.

While I dispise Obama, I would rather see him lose big time via a vote and not via a Constitutional requirement if he really didn't qualify.
Much more fun to watch him knocked on his arrogant ass by either Hillary or John than their winning by a TKO...

I agree his father was serving his country, this should not even be and issue. Leave it up to the New York times to come up with something like this.

This had to come from Mohammed Obama's camp, He is an arrogant self centered SOB, But his lovley wife is the flower of the family, she is a "BLOOMING IDIOT"
She has done for big ears what slick willy did for hillary, Also we can thank "Louis Eugene Walcott" better known as louis farrakhan for reminding us that obama is enamored by the radical islamo facist among us.