I always thought he was the very best of the conservative commentators and a great writer. His distinctive style of speaking was often imitated by comedians but his intellect was never doubted.

Truly a sad day. I had the pleasure of watching Buckley and Gore Vidal debate in '68 (on TV, but it was riveting). Of course, Vidal handed him his lunch, but he was always admirable. How far the conservative camp has fallen.

This is huge news.

I think it is symbolic of the Conservative Movement dying a slow death.

RIP Mr. Buckley, though there was much we disagreed on you were smart, literate and well thought of almost universally.

Buckley's "Firing Line" was a great program that didn't hesitate to bring on radicals ignored by the MSM for some great, civilized debate.

What a contrast he was to the conservative blowhards of today, Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly and the rest of those bottom-feeding haters and liars.

Yes, and don't forget the Buckley-Galbraith classics. Bill lost those, too. But Buckley was perhaps the last intelligent mossback, if you don't count baseball expert George Will. After Buckley the yahoos are down to Malkin and Coulter, Cal Thomas and Rushbaby. herm

This is huge news.

I think it is symbolic of the Conservative Movement dying a slow death.

----

You're reading waaaaaaaay too much into the death of a 82 year old man.

"Yes, and don't forget the Buckley-Galbraith classics"

Remember those well. Those two ideological opposites tangled often, and remained good friends throughout.

We now have cable news networks dedicated 24/7 to discussing politics and world events yet really we don't have the level of intelligent discussion anywhere that was the norm for Firing Line.
Symbolic of the Conservative Movement dying???
Perhaps not dying but changing into a much different beast, not based on philosophy but more on protecting the corporate oligarchy with a coalition between factions that share only superficial issues. PNAC - ABORTION/GAY RIGHTS - LOW TAXES. REally none of the three have anything to do with the other two.

While I may not have agreed with the man very often I never disrespected his intellect. To see morons like Bill Kristol, mAnn Colt-face, Michelle Malcontent, et al try to carry the conservative mantle and achieve such massive FAIL in comparison is both heartening and deeply depressing at the same time.

George Will has lost a tremendous amount of my respect over the last seven years but he's the closest thing the right have left to an intellectual.

RIP William F Buckley.

His mixture of conservatism and philosophy may have tasted nauseating to a liberal like me but fer right wing types, it worked.

Be Well.

"Those two ideological opposites tangled often, and remained good friends throughout."

My problem, Null and Void, is that I keep questioning the wisdom of a lifelong friendship with one whose political prime directive is wiping ME off the face of the earth. How friendly ought I be with one whose essential values are the very opposite of my own? herm

Herm, it's "Nullifidian." "Null and Void" is only used by wingnuts and trolls.

Who is Diane and why does she need to be nullifed?

Buckley v. Chomsky on Firing Line was a treat, too. I think they did something like three hour-long episodes in a row back in the early 70s.

These days, "debate" equals Hannity talking over someone for ten minutes asking him/her "Why do you hate America?"

RIP, WFB.

Herm, it's "Nullifidian." "Null and Void" is only used by wingnuts and trolls.

Posted by nullifidian
* * *

You don't have to be a righty tighty to be a wingnut or a troll.

At least Herm is consistent. By his own admission, his grandson who serves in the Marines isn't welcome in his home. To such a person, it is impossible to be friendly with those with whom he disagrees personally.

Okay, but what is a cap N Nullifidian, anyway?

As for RisR, he gets about as much of reality as righties ever get. My grandson (I told him) is a medic with the navy SEALS. RisR asked, during the Berkeley debate, if he WOULD be welcome in my house were he a marine. I replied that I'd ask him in, and probably read to him from Gandhi and King. herm

"You don't have to be a righty tighty to be a wingnut or a troll."

True. But it helps!

"My grandson (I told him) is a medic with the navy SEALS."

If that were my grandson I think I would be extremely proud. That guy is definitely welcome in my home any time.

"Buckley v. Chomsky on Firing Line was a treat, too"

Definitely. You won't see that kind of intellectual firepower anywhere today on television. Chomsky is persona non grata for the corporate MSM, though Buckley made an occasional appearance over the years. But Buckey was far too thoughtful to be a regular like all the shallow, sound-bite obsessed pundits that dominate the media today.

"But Buckey was far too thoughtful to be a regular like all the shallow, sound-bite obsessed pundits that dominate the media today."

Sort of explains the decline in the quality of conservative presidents. The current one isn't qualified to shine Buckley's shoes.

They told Bush that Buckley had died and he probably asked, "really, what position did he play?"

Very,very sad news. I'll miss him. But, he lived a rich and full life, with many, many friends. One of the few among us whose enemies were also his friends.

I'm sure he found his querencia.

Time to read some Blackford Oakes and a sailing book or two.

(btw, why isn't this on the front page???)

As for RisR, he gets about as much of reality as righties ever get. My grandson (I told him) is a medic with the navy SEALS. RisR asked, during the Berkeley debate, if he WOULD be welcome in my house were he a marine. I replied that I'd ask him in, and probably read to him from Gandhi and King. herm

Posted by herm
* * * *

I thought you said he USED to be a Navy Seal, but now is a medic in the Navy, which is marginally better than "Marinedom", as you called it.

Still, I'm sure he's beating your door down on Thanksgiving, to hear his grandpa barely suffer him, while reading enlightened wisdom from Gandhi and MLK. Boy. Who wouldn't want that?

"By proclamation, they're not welcome in Berkeley. They're not welcome in my house, either. Like I still love my grandson in uniform, and think the best way to support him is to work as hard as I can for peace. "
Posted by herm

"So . . . you love him, he's just not welcome in your home?"
Posted by Rightisright

A reasonable question, RisR. He is now a navy medic rather than a SEAL, which is relatively acceptable, especially when compared to marinedom. Were he to show up at the front door in marine dress blues, I would probably ask him to come in and read him passages from Gandhi and King. But that's really a tough one... herm

Posted by herm at 2008-02-14 05:56 PM

Sad news. As a younger man, I felt almost diametrically opposed to Mr Buckley, as did most of my generation. And now, 35 years later, while I still found myself disagreeing with him quite often, we found a lot of common ground in our strong libertarian beliefs. Like Goldwater, I think Bill felt his party had betrayed him in recent years. Maybe out of respect, we should as Mr Buckley suggested years ago...end the drug war!

Rest in Peace...

While I often disagreed with him, I will miss him. A great mind whose impact on this nation will probably be underrated.

Max

So Sorry To See him Gone , I Grew up Watching "Firing Line"

Rest in Peace "True Conservative"

-Sarge

The idea that Buckley and others were so intellectually superior to the TV pundits of today is likely related to the fact that most Americans read less and watch TV more. The intelligent commentators probably can't "sell" their ideas because we have audiences who demand "entertainment' instead of real discussion about ideas. If Buckley were a young man today I doubt he would even have a show on TV or be well known outside of his small intellectual world.
It is frightening to think that the nation/world is increasingly being led by those who are openly anti-intellectual.

Maybe out of respect, we should as Mr Buckley suggested years ago...end the drug war!

Rest in Peace...

Posted by mrsoul62 at 2008-02-27 01:11 PM | Reply

He was in favor of decriminalizing prostitution as well.

It is frightening to think that the nation/world is increasingly being led by those who are openly anti-intellectual.

Posted by danni at 2008-02-27 01:32 PM | Reply

You're absolutely right. That fact is scary and its reality is personified in George W. Bush.

GW is not a conservative per se.

As for William Buckley--RIP --He was an inspiration that folks today cannot emulate.

I send an email to c-span--they must have some of those programs in archives.

He was superb.


Murphy

"That fact is scary and its reality is personified in George W. Bush."

Ironic, he is the alcoholic millions of Americans would love to have a beer with....and that was the justification for their votes.

No Danni--again you are wrong.


Murphy

At least Herm is consistent. By his own admission, his grandson who serves in the Marines isn't welcome in his home. To such a person, it is impossible to be friendly with those with whom he disagrees personally.

Posted by rightisright

which makes them dangerous.. no room for disagreement is typically the bastion of the fascist or hardline communist.

"I send an email to c-span--they must have some of those programs in archives."

YouTube has some of the classics debates as well.

Murphy,
Tell me, how is Danni wrong? I can remember many foljks being interviewed around the 00 and 04 elections and stating that exact thing...Bush is the kind of guy you'd want to have a beer with.

When I was a young man I hated him, now that I am older I think he was wise.

It is frightening to think that the nation/world is increasingly being led by those who are openly anti-intellectual.

Posted by danni at 2008-02-27 01:32 PM | Reply

Danni, do you think you are intellectual? I am going to piss myself I am laughing so hard. You must be real fun at a party.

RIP -- A prototypical conservative that made a liveral kid THINK. And by reading Buckley and Goldwater, that liberal came to see that the difference between Buckley and Goldwater conservatism was not all that different than Jeffersonian and Kennedy liberalism.

Now, however, conservatives come in an unctuous and acrid package. Limbaugh, Cheney, Coulter, Bush, Rove, et al have put a foul, anti-intelectual face on conservatism. Their bile had made today's angry-media conservativism tough for even Buckley and Goldwater conservatives to tolerate.

If you are a Corpsman (Medic) with the SEALs, the YOU YOURSELF HAVE TO BE A SEAL.

It's not one without the other when it comes to those guys

What a contrast he was to the conservative blowhards of today, Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly and the rest of those bottom-feeding haters and liars.


Hey, we actually agree on something, Nullifidan. As a right-leaner I can openly and honestly say that I can not stand listening to any of those guys you mentioned. It's only fair to say that I can't stand anyone on Air America either.

The thing is, I did start off listening to each of them and over time their rhetoric, which once sounded reasonable to me, became so evidently extreme right. I seriously can not listen to any of them anymore.

RIP. One of the all time great thinkers. I remember watching him on tv back in the day.

The nabobs and nitwits of today couldn't carry his briefcase.

The world just dummied up some more.

The idiot cinch is getting tighter.

"Hey, we actually agree on something, Nullifidan. "

I watched Firing Line for years, Everlong. It was a tiny morsel of brainfood on a banquet table of mindless television.

I loved it when Bill B. would go after conservatives on drug use and criminalization. They never knew how to respond to him.

Long admired and already missed.

And RisR stands by his pompous nonsense. A Buckley would have conceded the error and moved on. Methinks further that the knee-jerk righties who try to yank "lib" chains would benefit from reading some of their own prophets like Buckley or Will, rather than the bumper sticker writers that bring forth their grunts today. herm

Corky, I would have loved to hear him debate Medved on that. Medved is staunchly against decriminalization, as many 'righties' are, which is in stark juxtaposition to 'righties' view on the government and governmental intrusion and governmental regulation.

Medved is a closeted douchebag. How do these a-holes get talk shows?

"Danni, do you think you are intellectual? I am going to piss myself I am laughing so hard. You must be real fun at a party."

Probably not comp[ared to Buckley or Vidal but compared to you....er....well.....never mind.
My comment though had nothing to do with my view of myself but rather the open anti-intellecualism that is common in right wing discussion and thought.
You can try to turn that into a personal attack against me but then that is what anti-intellectual morons do.

And RisR stands by his pompous nonsense. A Buckley would have conceded the error and moved on. Methinks further that the knee-jerk righties who try to yank "lib" chains would benefit from reading some of their own prophets like Buckley or Will, rather than the bumper sticker writers that bring forth their grunts today. herm

Posted by herm
* * * *

All I did was quote you. Not trying to yank your chain at all.

If I limited my friendships only to free-market, low-tax, pro-military Evangelical conservatives with an apathetic view on almost every social issue, I would have a very limited acquaintanceship. It's interesting how you probably view such people as closed-minded, when you're guilty of exactly the same thing.

A bright and stimulating mind is now at rest. No matter whether or not you agreed with his views, William F. Buckley, Jr. will be seen as one of the great wise men of our time.

I think it is symbolic of the Conservative Movement dying a slow death.

Conservatism won't die. What will get redefined is what conservatism stands for as will liberalism.

I am willing to bet the positions and view points that seem characteristically liberal will be the main planks of conservatism a hundred years from now.

Think about it; the very idea of being a progressive is moving forward. The very idea of being a conservative is to hold on to the ideas of the past.

Where will liberalism progress to? Does it ever arrive at a point where it no longer needs to progress?

The liberals positions on drudge today will very likely be the conservative ones of tomorrow.


Cheers

AAAAAAAWWWWWWWWW that hurts.....

"What will get redefined is what conservatism stands for as will liberalism"

True. What matters is who is defining who.

G.K.Chesterton once wrote:
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes.
The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected."
- Illustrated London News, 4/19/1924

I rarely agreed with him, but I respected him and the tone he brought to the conversation - respectful of the loyal opposition, and never demeaning of the opposition as conservative pundits (who are hardly journalists) seem to relish engaging in.

I would bet my salary that Buckley wrote more books than Hannity has read.

"I rarely agreed with him, but I respected him and the tone he brought to the conversation - respectful of the loyal opposition, and never demeaning of the opposition as conservative pundits (who are hardly journalists) seem to relish engaging in."
Posted by AMERICANUNITY

He did have a way of respectful dialog. If I didn't known better, I'd think you are a closet consevative AU. By the way, you can bash the "conservative pundits" all you want, but it's w/ a complete lack of honesty if you do not include the liberals of the same punditry (I borrowed that word from W).

Respectful dialog, sure. But I do remember the pained expressions on Buckley's face if someone said something - er - unlikely to him. Which wasn't very often.

If anyone has any ideas on how to be respectful to the black-is-white opinions righties here utter ... why, ah'd be mighty proud to listen. Respectfully. herm

Anton; easy enough said when you don't have a job.

Symbolic of the Conservative Movement dying???
Perhaps not dying but changing into a much different beast, not based on philosophy but more on protecting the corporate ..... blah, blah, blah

Posted by danni at 2008-02-27 12:03 PM | Reply |

Danni,

Buckley's greatest contribution was to challenge Liberal philosophy, with grace and disarming humor. He spawned the modern Conservative movement: not Republican but Libertarian.

The nastiness has come mostly from the self-righteous Left, indignant that intelligent people would question them, politically and morally.

Buckley was a serious man and a serious Christian. He openly questioned the Catholic Church while remaining true to his faith.

What a hateful thing for Lefties. An intelligent, logical person, a Christian who acknowledges problems in his church, who ultimately disarms idiots like you.

When you go to sleep tonight you will, once again, be tormented by Bill Buckley. Meanwhile, he is enjoying eternity.

God is a capitalist. It sucks to be Danni

"If anyone has any ideas on how to be respectful to the black-is-white opinions righties here utter ... why, ah'd be mighty proud to listen. Respectfully. herm"
Posted by herm

Come on Herm...your premise reminds me of the Israeli/PLO conflict. PLO bombs a teenage disco...the Israelis pinpoint some sidewinders on the household of the culprits....the PLO (&UN) condemns Israel for killing innocent Palestinians. What gives? You lefties are the worlds worst at sarcasm and arrogance...mostly to cover for lack of content and principle. You fire...we're firing back, bro!

True. What matters is who is defining who.

Yes. Truly an important point.

In the 80s and 90s, the authority to define the word liberal as a negative term was handed over to the the Republicans for some reason. I don't know why the Democrats at the time allowed this, but they did. It came to the point were politicians felt the need to distance themselves from the term.

Eight years of George Bush, I think took care of that.

Cheers

RIP Mr. Buckley

Anton; easy enough said when you don't have a job.

Posted by retnluvnit at 2008-02-27 04:46 PM | Reply

Oh, yeah, I meant to say "celery."

My mistake.

Sorry for any confusion.

BUSYB RIGHT ON.............

"You lefties are the worlds worst at sarcasm and arrogance..."

And by worst you mean best...I guess?

And by worst you mean best...I guess?

Posted by Jomama at 2008-02-27 05:30 PM | Reply

Take a clue from WFB: He ultimatley laughed at people like you, as silly and deluded. All pent up with theology with no concept of reality.

Worst of all, you can't see the folly and humor in your own stupidity. By worst, it means "worst"

Be Swelled

Nope, I'll take Mr. Vidal any day.

Be Gone

"You fire...we're firing back, bro!"

I will look forward to the day that a rightie can fire back articulately. Maybe there is another Buckley in the wings. So far the Bush Troop has done little but hurl variants of "stupid." And we all know how THAT is a symptom of intellectual constipation. herm

Damned VERNON...you're a pretty smart little nerd, aren't you? It's always weird how astutely a commie liberal can say nothing. You know I'm right... so you cover w/ arrogance and slander...yep...that makes you an f'ing democrat.

The sibilant polysyllabic one is gone. He died with his boots on, at the typewriter (or computer). He was a multifaceted man, writer, commentator, harpsichordist, sailor, and of course, a devout Roman Catholic, who probably had no doubts as to his continuing existence in the heavenly realm. A life well-lived.

You know I'm right... so you cover w/ arrogance and slander...yep...that makes you an f'ing democrat.

Posted by BusyB at 2008-02-27 05:52 PM | Reply

Uhh, yeah, what you said. I guess.

I don't doubt that Jo. I bet he would like to take you also.

The sibilant polysyllabic one is gone. He died with his boots on, at the typewriter (or computer). He was a multifaceted man, writer, commentator, harpsichordist, sailor, and of course, a devout Roman Catholic, who probably had no doubts as to his continuing existence in the heavenly realm. A life well-lived.

Posted by Johnson

Mr. Johnson...That should pretty much close this segment. That should be on his tombstone...well written my fellow artist.

Fellow artist? You puttin' crucifixes in glasses, too?

Herm,
The only thing you look forward to is your next welfare check.

"The only thing you look forward to is your next welfare check."

It WAS a good place to stop. Some asshole always has to have the last word. herm

Some asshole always has to have the last word.

Posted by herm at 2008-02-27 06:22 PM | Reply

I guess that would be Herm

I guess you're right, Vern

Murtha voted "PORKER" of the year. Go dems..... I can't wait for their brand of fiscal responsibility.

Now, all the Bush haters will tell of this administrations downfalls, I agree they fucked up. But let's talk about how the dems, if elected, will change this.

I guess you're right, Vern

I thought Jim Varney was dead.




Cheers

I will look forward to the day that a rightie can fire back articulately. Maybe there is another Buckley in the wings. So far the Bush Troop has done little but hurl variants of "stupid." And we all know how THAT is a symptom of intellectual constipation. herm


Man, you libs, for some reason, believe that if a person is to the right it simply means they're inarticulate and a far cry from intellectual. Not only is that so arrogant, it's just stupid to say or believe.

Why do you think you have the market cornered on intellectualism? Never mind, your type is so uppity you will always think that you are the smartest person in the room. The fact is, you aren't and you never will be.

Why do you think that you are so much better than others? I thought one of the main ideals of liberal thinking was that everyone is equal and should be treated thus. Not to mention the tolerance that you all are supposed to be so well versed in.

There is only one word for people like you. Hypocrite. I'm sorry, there are two words. Arrogant. But you take arrogance to such a high level that, surely, there must be another word for it.

nary a negative word was mentioned in all of the blogs above (though i didn't read every one). this is amazing considering the nature of blogging and this site. and it is a tribute to mr buckley, his insight, intelligence, and his communication skills.
i wish i could remember how many times he had sent me to the dictionary as a lad. it makes me think that there's a load of people out there who should look up the word conservative... especially those who wrap themselves in the republican flag.

all the best on the next plain, mr b. and a huge thank you for what you've passed along over the years.
you are already missed.

EVERLONG... RIGHT ON.....

He did have a way of respectful dialog. If I didn't known better, I'd think you are a closet consevative AU. By the way, you can bash the "conservative pundits" all you want, but it's w/ a complete lack of honesty if you do not include the liberals of the same punditry (I borrowed that word from W).

Posted by BusyB

I'm against ALL that kind of rhetoric. You have to admit that the rightie pundits do take things farther, i.e. Ann Coulter's 'they should bomb NY and kill all the liberals'.

I wish we'd all tell them to cut out ridiculous and inflammatory rhetoric. Better yet, take AM talkradio back to local shows about subjects of local interest. It's practically disappeared from the American airwaves.

I don't listen to pundits - right or left - unless I've accidentally left the AM radio tuned into the station that carries Coast to Coast AM.

Buckley was a journalist. Pundits are assholes with opinions and microphones. Big difference.

guess you're right, Vern
I thought Jim Varney was dead.

Posted by Grendel

I take back anything I said 'bout ya Grendel...that was pretty funny. By the way...what you up to....say... 10:00ish?

Jim Varney did pass away.

We know AU...love ya, meanit.

I take back anything I said 'bout ya Grendel...that was pretty funny. By the way...what you up to....say... 10:00ish?

Thanks, Busyb.

I was never a big fan of Varney, but it saddened me when I heard of his death in 2000.

10:00ish? I am sorry; I am not sure what you mean.

Do you mean will I around until 10 or is this some joke at my expense that I should know about?

I am curious now.

Either way let me know.

Cheers

Everlong, shhhh we got the whole emperors new cloths thing going on here. As long as the think they are intelligent they run around making fools of them selfs and we need the comedic relief.

We know AU...love ya, meanit.

Posted by BusyB

LOL. Good to know

Guess that'll teach me to inject myself in the middle of a conversation.

salamandagator ... eat me, anus. Can't i be nice once in a while....it's good for the soul...you should try it ass wipe.

I replied that I'd ask him in, and probably read to him from Gandhi and King. herm


Kinda like being invited in to my friends parents house and having him read the Bible to me...

Pushy people rarely get their point across.

Heaven forbid that you actually just spend some time with him, wanker.

grendel....sorry we were so rudely interrupted earlier. at 10ish, i was just jokingly asking you out for a latte....no pun, no tricks. I'm a sucker for the obvious intelligence you possess accompanied by a certain cleaness the rest of these creeps are oblivious to.

Everlong, "libs" ARE better schooled than righties. It's what makes them (us) "libs." They (we) see the bigger picture. Thus they're (we're) also more articulate. Hypocritical and arrogant I doubt.

Axiom wants the last word on my relationship with the grandson who pissed away a 4.32 GPA to don a uniform. It's fine, thank you. He did NOT don a marine uniform, so I will not read to him when he visits next month. But thanks for asking. herm

When I left this thread earlier today, I thought at last, the partisan sniping that most of you consider yourselves to be so adept at, was going to be given a rest out of mutual admiration for WFB. I assumed if anyone would break the peacefulness of this thread, it would be some of the uber-liberals who wouldn't be able to resist on last cheap shot. But it seems once again, most of the hate and venom being spewed here is coming from the folks who are suppose to be from the party of good Christian and family values. If you you weren't so full of hate, you might have noticed most of those evil liberals were being quite respectful to Mr Buckley.

Respect breeds respect...but if seating at your typewriter, banging out insults and profanities at 50 wpm makes you feel intellectually and spiritually superior to everyone who disagrees with you...bang away, you intellectual giants. But I gotta say, as hard as some of you try...I don't see any future Hunter S Thompsons or William Buckleys in much of what I'm reading.

Once again, RIP Mr Buckley.

Herm;

God bless you, you make me laugh.

I applaud your grandson.

Thanks to MrSoul for the youtube link--I saved it for later.

Dang I like technology!

Murphy

Hunter Thompson...

God I loved reading his stuff. The g/f and I were watching "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" the other night. She kept asking me what was laughing so hard....funny....It's the true ones that are the funniest.

Thompson and Buckley had a genuine admiration for each other. Hard to imagine in these days of polarization.

Your quite welcome Murphy.

RIP Mr. Buckley,

I only feel sorry that the guy had to live long enough to watch his beloved conservatism become "Hannitized".

"I only feel sorry that the guy had to live long enough to watch his beloved conservatism become "Hannitized"."

Probably never actually saw or heard it. Lucky bastard

What's sad is none of these people were Buckleyized.

Godspeed WFB.

Fair Winds and Following Seas to Mr. Buckley.


Murphy

Everlong, "libs" ARE better schooled than righties. It's what makes them (us) "libs." They (we) see the bigger picture. Thus they're (we're) also more articulate. Hypocritical and arrogant I doubt.
herm

Well, that proves my point, but I must comment on the "bigger picture" portion. Well, I thought I was going to comment on it but I'm in such a daze over the fact that you actually believe that, I am unable to think straight.

I just wish you could give me one example each of how a liberal sees the big picture and a conservative does not. And did I miss a study on the quality of schooling compared between liberals and conservatives? Because of your superior knowledge, I must arrive at the conclusion that you actually meant "better schooling", as opposed to more college level liberals or degreed liberals than conservatives. Even that is doubtful, but to say "better" means liberals somehow get a higher quality of learning. In other words, your schoolng was "better" than mine.

If you didn't mean that then you just showed that you didn't receive that "better" schooling. It also shows that you can't see the big picture as well either or you could have taken that thought process all the way thru to the end and you never would have used that term.

Can you follow that or is it too logical for you?

Mr. Buckley didn't really recognize the Conservative of today, an near the end of his life said so. While all of the well wishes seem apporiate lets not forget that Mr. Buckley, during his life:

1..Was a strong supporter of Sen. Joseph McCarthy and his witch hunt of the Fifties.
2..Opposed the Civil Rights Bill of 1964
3..Opposed Nelson Mendela an the African Congress fight for Independance in South Africa.
4..Wanted people with AIDS's tatooed much like the NAZI's tatoo on the Jewish people in the Second world War.

To the Conservative community Mr. Buckley was a Hero, to us who of the Liberal persuasion, he was funny, smart but by no means a Hero. R.I.P.

Ev, I cannot follow what you want, but if you can rephrase it so my simple lib mind understands, I'll try to oblige. You mean, I presume, that "libs" see hungry people while righties see only their lessened paychecks. I'll hold up my Berkeley schooling against yours any time.

Cel, all you say about Buckley is true. And then some. We "libs" are "'civilized" in this thread, I think, not because we agree with his content or mourn his passing. I voice some respect because he was an articulate rightie; if you've been reading here you know that there aren't many of them left. herm

The dope smoking finally caught up with this
hippocrit. He's no Conservative. Conservatives
don't go out in international waters to smoke
dope, (and what else?)
He provided "justification vernacular" for the behavior of country-club republicans: the worship
of money at the expense of every decent human
instinct. I've known hundreds of them personally.
While I'm at it..what about Rush Limbaugh, his
admirer. Have you noticed in the last 6 months Rush's brain is deteriorating... his schtick
is symptomatic of someone who's frontal lobe is
slowly and irreversably atrophying. Drugs...
I am no liberal by any stretch, and had been
and admirer of these failures. I regret all the
time I wasted listening to these fools.

I applaud your grandson.

Posted by retnluvnit at 2008-02-27 08:09 PM | Reply

Amazing how many Liberals on DR are dinosaurs. All locked into some perverted philosophy from the '60s.

I talked to a professor of Economics the other day from a local university. He commented on how the students keep getting more conservative, while their cranky, aging faculty are radical Libs.

God, and time, will correct the imbalance and restore America to sanity.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

We unregenerate libs see this steady deterioration of the college student's morality as a result of the Ayn Rand me-first philosophy. The kids once again know how under Republicanism their kids will go hungry and their sniffles go uncured. It's kinda sad how when the chips are down, your brightest, shiningest ideals swirl down the toilet. I don't think it's as bad as you suggest, however. herm

"as a result of the Ayn Rand me-first philosophy."

What teenager doesn't love a philosophy that tells his or her narcissistic self that their selfishness is actually a virtue?

It's kinda sad how when the chips are down, your brightest, shiningest ideals swirl down the toilet.

Posted by herm at 2008-02-28 12:22 AM | Reply |

In your case. good riddance to bad trash. Your ideals go down the toilet because that's where they belong. Your ideals can't survive because they are shit and people know it. "FLUSH"

The best way to provide food, clothing, health care and hope is not through another worthless government program. It's through a job, entrepreneurship and personal responsibility.

Must suck for you, to stand there and watch the meteor coming.

Say 'hello' to T-Rex for me.

It's kinda sad how when the chips are down, your brightest, shiningest ideals swirl down the toilet. I don't think it's as bad as you suggest, however. herm

Posted by herm at 2008-02-28 12:22 AM


"Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality the costs become prohibitive."

- Guess!

"...through another worthless government program."

You want to eliminate the Department of Homeland Insecurity? Good call, Vernon.

You want to eliminate the Department of Homeland Insecurity? Good call, Vernon.

Posted by nullifidian at 2008-02-28 12:37 AM | Reply

Also the ....

Department of Energy

Department of Health and Human Services

Department of Edumacation

Environmental Protection Agency

And a bunch of other bullshit, make-work agencies that accomplish nothing but suck trillions of tax dollars

Kill the dinosaurs!

Berkely....I didn't even have to ask. To make it simpler for yew. You said better schooling. This implies that you know that liberals go to colleges that are considered "better" for learning than do conservatives. Not only is this impossible to prove, it would be purely speculative if someone tried to prove it.

Even with a "ratings" system, the quality of eduation one receives, from wherever it may be, can never be measured to any specific degree. There are, of course, a few exceptions but not enough to show the point you are trying to make.

The mere fact that you mentioned your Berekely education, if in fact you did go there, as something you would "hold up" against someone else's, is a prime example of the arrogance of which you stated this - Hypocritical and arrogant I doubt.

That you can't see your own arrogance only adds to it.

"I talked to a professor of Economics the other day from a local university."

Perhaps that is true, but I too have friends who are professors, they have noticed something a little different...they notice the near illiteracy of many of the students of today....which probably does account for their shift in viewpoint. If they are satisfied to learn current events from Fox News, or any of the major networks forthat matter, then they aren't likely to have a liberal perspective.

Is THIS still going today? Ev, your rambling would be more persuasive if you bothered to learn to spell Berkeley, although the attempts are amusing. I think you say you cannot prove one college better than another, but there have been numerous valuable efforts, and generally Harvard, Chicago and Berkeley wind up ahead of Pepperdine, Bob Jones and Oral Roberts. Call it arrogance if you like; I call it pride. I also stick by my response to a service club breakfast several decades ago when someone asked why "you news guys are always such radicals" and I replied "maybe because we know more than you do." herm

I second several of the messages from above...

Where are the New Conservative Intellectuals?

Rush? Bill O'Liely? Ann (I'm Mad at the World and
just plain Mad Coulter)?

How far the Right has fallen...

Ideas, priniples, well thought out
arguments, while not always agreed with,
hold much more sway with the Left than
name calling, finger wagging, and overtalking
ever have...

I mean, worshiping the likes Tom (the Hammer) Delay or Karl (I will say or do anything to get my guy elected, whether or not it is illegal)Rove...

I mean, Defaulting on the promises of lowering Federal Spending...of Balancing the Budget...of just about everything...

And you have to even ask why people are leaving
your Party in droves???

Simple Logic, put up or shut up.
(just a hint)You had your chance,
It's probably time to shut up now...

Like our founding fathers and Martin Luther King, this guy believed that individual rights were paramount. He argued for the legalization of marijuana in his later years.

We couldn't be further away from libertarian Conservatism today. Instead Corruption, Fear and Religion drive an elitism which provides legal rights proportional to wealth and power. This problem has even infected the Supreme Court.

And you have to even ask why people are leaving
your Party in droves??? Posted by earthmuse

eARTHMused...YOU HAVE PROVEN AGAIN TO BE THE IDIOT YOU ARE. The GOP numbers are at a record high....high enough to exceed the socialist demos last two elections. They'll do it again this year. You see sug(ar), what happens is, once the little dopeheads that vote with enthusiastic popularity w/ slogans like "CHANGE"..actually grow up and start making a living, and start raising families, and being taxed out the ass, and see how our bottomless-pit-social-programs have become embarrassing scams, they realize all the socialist bullshit that they were indoctrinated w/in college was/is actually destroying the greatness that the forefathers of this country gave their lives for. Then they change parties, become conservative...or, a bunch of'em that are pussywhupped stay demo to appease their wives who wear the pants in their families and vote Repub behind closed curtains anyway.

Some of the dopeheads stay dopeheads, don't they EarthmUsed?

"I talked to a professor of Economics the other day from a local university"

How many quarters did he put in your cup?

"high enough to exceed the socialist demos last two elections."

Uh, no. Gore won the popular vote in 2000 by over a million. And do you recall 2006?

"high enough to exceed the socialist demos last two elections."

Looks like bizzyblumkingiver forgot the 6 million vote fisting the repugs got in 2006.

Herm, if I gave a shit how Berkely is spelled I WOULD have taken the time to look it up. And it seems you are still incapable of logical thought. I said there may be a few exceptions but, for the most part, college level learning is college level learning. It is up to the individual as to what is actually learned.

As for your pride comment, I leave you with this.

--Synonyms 1. Pride, conceit, self-esteem, egotism, vanity, vainglory imply an unduly favorable idea of one's own appearance, advantages, achievements, etc., and often apply to offensive characteristics. Pride is a lofty and often arrogant assumption of superiority in some respect: Pride must have a fall. Conceit implies an exaggerated estimate of one's own abilities or attainments, together with pride: blinded by conceit. Self-esteem may imply an estimate of oneself that is higher than that held by others: a ridiculous self-esteem. Egotism implies an excessive preoccupation with oneself or with one's own concerns, usually but not always accompanied by pride or conceit: His egotism blinded him to others' difficulties. Vanity implies self-admiration and an excessive desire to be admired by others: His vanity was easily flattered. Vainglory, somewhat literary, implies an inordinate and therefore empty or unjustified pride: puffed up by vainglory. 5. boast.
--Antonyms 1. humility.

But.....we still won, regardless of how shameful Al Gore's machine tried to cheat the Florida constituency.

"But.....we still won, regardless of how shameful Al Gore's machine tried to cheat the Florida constituency."

Stupid Gore...thought he could force a county to do the will of its people. Precluding him from finding what that will was through judicial activism...now that was a political feat to make us all proud enough to invade someone in the name of American democracy, eh?

those darn hanging chads...what a scam. Those darn absentee ballots form our servicemembers...they shouldn't count, they're not with us. You f'ing sore loser. Makeup some more bullshit.

Mostly I disagreed with him but he was intelligent and articulate and that I admire in anyone.

It was most gratifying to see him come out in the end against George Bush and his Excellent Adventure.

He grew disillusioned with the Bush administration and even said publicly that, if America were a parliamentary system, Mr Bush would have resigned. He was uncomfortable with the Iraq war.

very gratifying indeed from one so intelligent and obviously conservative.

RIP

Buckley,

Was just another lazy trust fund fucktard who eventually made money extolling the virtues of manipulating and using others (capitalism) to get rich.

What the F'''you talikin' 'bout Furio? Oh, I get it...you're an anti-capitalist (the greatest socio-system in civilization) and you're for what____ ? By the way...you have zero class to denegrate a descent man still in his open casket. Cheap, man, cheap.

"those darn hanging chads...what a scam. Those darn absentee ballots form our servicemembers...they shouldn't count, they're not with us. You f'ing sore loser. Makeup some more bullshit."

LOL. Stuck I chord with someone I see.

Its really simple. The SC voted to end the official re-count. In doing so, they skewed what would have been the final result, as we all now know. Now a whiny little bitch comes along and says he tried to "cheat the Florida constituency" ... I'd say the burden is on THAT whiny bitch to prove it or stop bitching.

Simple.

BusyB,

Yeah fucktard capitalism sucks except for the ones on top. Worse than communism if you let it run rampant. You do realize the US is a socialist society in many ways due to the injustices in the early 1900s? You do realize that many countries adopted communism since the working class and peasants had no say and zero opportunities for a quality life?
You do realize the middle class depends on socialism in one form or another to exist?

So....what do think will work? Go ahead and say it....you know you can.

"You do realize the middle class depends on socialism in one form or another to exist?"

Well, I'm not collecting Social Security, nor do I ever expect to be. I'm not enrolled in Medicare. I don't collect welfare or subsidies of any kind.

But I do subsidize everyone who does.

How exactly do I "depend" upon it?

Political philosophy is fun. The devil is in the details.

Kevin,

"Socialism" is the whole system that basically taxes income and capital gains to funnel money into social programs. Social programs are schools, state univeristies, social security, welfare, medicaid, police, firemen, etc. Without the taxation then all money gets hoarded. Being able to exist as middle class is an off shoot of socialism. There was no income tax or estate tax in the early 1900's. These taxes allowed money and assets to flow back into society rather than to be accumulated. If there is no money to be earned or assets to acquire everyone except the rich will be poor.

"How exactly do I "depend" upon it? "

Well, off the top of my head, I'd guess you eat inspected meat, drive on roads, and call the police & fire department when needed.

The ladder company doesn't send you a bill after dousing your house, the cops don't hit you up after they defend you, and the neighbors at the intersection don't charge a toll. Socialist of them, wouldn't you say?

Furio-

The middle class arose mostly as the result of a booming post-war economy. Saying that it arose as a direct result of the IRS, welfare (which didn't exist yet), federal school funding (which didn't exist yet), and all the state services you mention is silly.

I think you should look into some basic history and economics before spouting off like that.

Danforth,

Your an idiot.

"Well, off the top of my head, I'd guess you eat inspected meat, drive on roads, and call the police & fire department when needed."

All of which comes from my state and local taxes, and meat inspection on a federal level is a joke at best. Private companies worried about publicity and lawsuits act much more diligently than 8-5 government workers with pensions and bloated benefits packages.

"The ladder company doesn't send you a bill after dousing your house, the cops don't hit you up after they defend you, and the neighbors at the intersection don't charge a toll. Socialist of them, wouldn't you say?"

State...not federal...how stupid do we get here?

I suppose since I socialize at work that makes me a hypocrite, right Danforth?

LOL. Take your head out of your ass. We're talking about the middle class existing independent of socialist institutions...not whether or not government can ever serve a purpose.

Idiots never cease to amaze.

"All of which comes from my state and local taxes, and meat inspection on a federal level is a joke at best. Private companies worried about publicity and lawsuits act much more diligently than 8-5 government workers with pensions and bloated benefits packages."

Kevin you are fucking stupid. Really fucking stupid. The only reason why private companies worry about lawsuits is because the federal gov defines the laws, pays for the judicial system and pays for regulators to put out rules to adhere by. These are socialist forms.

And socialism is not just implemented at the Fed level but also state and local. That's why you have fed, state, local (real estate), sales and FICA taxes.

"Correct, Furio."

Nulli aka Bill O'Reilly is taking a side. That's the kiss of death. LOL.

Without a democratic form of government we would have feudalism. Monarchies and Communist states are just centralized feudalism in my opinion. There would be no ability to get individual justice or a hearing unless you had a benevolent dictator which historically were few and far between.

"The only reason why private companies worry about lawsuits is because the federal gov defines the laws, pays for the judicial system and pays for regulators to put out rules to adhere by. These are socialist forms."

So lawsuits can only be filed where there is a regulatory agency governing and a body of regulations? HAHA.

You are a real idiot. A real retard. Thanks for the laugh.

"All of which comes from my state and local taxes, and meat inspection on a federal level is a joke at best. Private companies worried about publicity and lawsuits act much more diligently than 8-5 government workers with pensions and bloated benefits packages."

It's always reassuring to know that you can sue a company after you've died from consuming or using some unsafe product.

This tiresome crap that companies regulate themselves is just that, crap. Companies try to maximize profits. They will take any and all shortcuts to maximize profits even if it is against their long term interests.

"You are a real idiot. A real retard. "

More deep thoughts from Kevin of Winston Strawn.

Yeah Nulli-

Those companies that imported all those evil products from China...how many died? None. How many companies clamped down on product control? Nearly all. Why? Because that's how it works. We don't need ten layers of inspectors, auditors, and bureaucrats to do what can already be easily done by those with a real incentive. How's the TSA working for you? You love it don't you? You think they make you safer? Ask them next time your there if they check the guys going through the back doors who have access to the cargo holds. Then come back to me with this "government is the cure to all my ills" garbage.

Hey Nulli-

How'd it go yesterday in every thread you were in?

LOL. Your a jinx to every point you try to make.

"Your an idiot."

LOL.

"It's always reassuring to know that you can sue a company after you've died from consuming or using some unsafe product."

Wrongful death suits are bad news to any company. You didn't know that, did you?

"Your a jinx to every point you try to make."

LOLOL...

"Ask them next time your there if they check the guys going through the back doors who have access to the cargo holds. Then come back to me with this "government is the cure to all my ills" garbage."

They improved their product due to the implicit threat of what the government would do if they didn't. The government publicized what was harmful. (fucktard you do know that not so long ago lead paint was legal to use?) Advocacy groups found the fault in the product. Government agencies then confirmed. The freedom of the press allowed the report to be published to the consumer.

All socialist instruments. Have you no clue about forms of government?

"Your an idiot."

Kevin, if you're going to call someone an idiot, you might try to get your grammar and spelling correct.

Moron.

That's right Nulli, good job, you made my point.

For once, and unknowingly of course, you did well.

The next step is for Furio or you to show how providing stability through federalism equates to socialism. That is what I've been waiting for this whole time before the third party "helpers" showed up to save the day.

"Wrongful death suits are bad news to any company. You didn't know that, did you?"

Doesn't help you when YOU'RE dead, dumbass.

Sorry Nulli-

I know how much spelling errors can prevent you from having to focus on the point. Simple problems from a simple mind.

I won't be offended if you just had to move on because of it. But pretending to be some kind of authority is silly coming from the biggest troll on DR.

"Doesn't help you when YOU'RE dead, dumbass."

Did you figure that out on your own there Einstein?

Couldn't possibly be any more to it, I know.

Simple problem. Simple mind.

"The next step is for Furio or you to show how providing stability through federalism equates to socialism.

Libertarian dipshits call everything socialism. Unless it's more convenient to call it "federalism" or whatever the label du jour is.

The last hurrah for the moron is to holler "moron" as hard as he can. I'm STILL hoping for some content from the righties here. I can be for some hours, come back all eager ... and STILL nada! Maybe they should take a break, convene and get ready the garbage they will spew at President Barney O'Bama. herm

From someone who hasn't shown he knows shit about shit, I'm sure we all bask in your superiority there lil Willy.

LOL.

Now if only Nulli/Bill O could find a job. LOL.

"Did you figure that out on your own there Einstein?"

Obviously you needed some help, shit for brains.

"I'm STILL hoping for some content from the righties here."

Don't hold your breath waiting for some content from Mr. LOL.

Whats the matter Nulli aka Bill O?

Gonna start whining again like you did all day yesterday?

"Obviously you needed some help, shit for brains."

Yeah, and thank god you were there to run some of your superiority off on me, eh? Government can solve all your problems! Capt. dip-shit to the rescue once again. LOL. You really do make me laugh out loud. No helping that. Monkeys are just entertaining when they try to imitate people. I'm still not convinced you're not a just a bad caricature of a monkey though.

Maybe after you show your riveting data on the complete irrelevance of a wrongful death suit to a company, we'll all see your mad genius. I'm waiting...c'mon Mr. Helper...

Whats the matter Nulli aka Bill O?

Like aka makes a difference to what was posted.

We know who he is, but apparently you have to remind yourself every post. What does that say to your intelligence?

Money,

Kevin thinks that "LOL" is a substitute for a coherent argument. Since he doesn't have any arguments, he laughs like some kind of retard in a padded cell.

Since he doesn't have any arguments, he laughs like some kind of retard in a padded cell.

Funny Nulli,

No one promised him a rose garden!

"Kevin thinks that "LOL" is a substitute for a coherent argument. Since he doesn't have any arguments, he laughs like some kind of retard in a padded cell."

All I hear is:

WHAAAAAA

I dish but I can't take.

WHAAAAAA

I get called out every time I spout BS.

WHAAAAAA

"...and meat inspection on a federal level is a joke at best. Private companies worried about publicity and lawsuits act much more diligently..."

Yeah, that's why PCBs were dumped in a stream...because companies were worried about publicity and lawsuits. Inspecting meat, clean air, clean water...all done better by the individual, eh?

"Danforth, Your an idiot."

Ya gotta love the self-retorting retort.

"Yeah, that's why PCBs were dumped in a stream...because companies were worried about publicity and lawsuits. Inspecting meat, clean air, clean water...all done better by the individual, eh?"

But government employees overseen by layers of bureaucrats would be the answer to all our problems. When has THAT ever gone wrong?

I'm sure those companies were thumbing their noses at those multi-billion dollar damage awards, weren't they? They didn't change anything, right? Evil corporations are out to get you...run for the hills. Stupid. Just plain stupid.

Fact is, those big verdicts and the publicity that went with it did more than any government agency could ever do to change behavior. Yet the knee-jerkers still scream at every turn...demanding government solve their woes at the expense of those inherently evil creators of jobs.

"Ya gotta love the self-retorting retort."

Glad you appreciate truth at a minimum. That's something, I suppose.

Herm, if I gave a shit how Berkely is spelled I WOULD have taken the time to look it up. And it seems you are still incapable of logical thought. I said there may be a few exceptions but, for the most part, college level learning is college level learning. It is up to the individual as to what is actually learned.
As for your pride comment, I leave you with this.
--Synonyms 1. Pride, conceit, self-esteem, egotism, vanity, vainglory imply an unduly favorable idea of one's own appearance, advantages, achievements, etc., and often apply to offensive characteristics. Pride is a lofty and often arrogant assumption of superiority in some respect: Pride must have a fall. Conceit implies an exaggerated estimate of one's own abilities or attainments, together with pride: blinded by conceit. Self-esteem may imply an estimate of oneself that is higher than that held by others: a ridiculous self-esteem. Egotism implies an excessive preoccupation with oneself or with one's own concerns, usually but not always accompanied by pride or conceit: His egotism blinded him to others' difficulties. Vanity implies self-admiration and an excessive desire to be admired by others: His vanity was easily flattered. Vainglory, somewhat literary, implies an inordinate and therefore empty or unjustified pride: puffed up by vainglory. 5. boast.
--Antonyms 1. humility.
Posted by everlong at 2008-02-28 01:26 PM

As Danforth has already expressed, talk about self-retorting. Are you an unearthed vegetable?

"Your an idiot."
Kevin, if you're going to call someone an idiot, you might try to get your grammar and spelling correct. Moron.
Posted by nullifidian at 2008-02-28 07:51 PM

That's right Nulli, good job, you made my point.
For once, and unknowingly of course, you did well.
The next step is for Furio or you to show how providing stability through federalism equates to socialism. That is what I've been waiting for this whole time before the third party "helpers" showed up to save the day.
Posted by kevin23 at 2008-02-28 07:52 PM

Jesus, wow.. another "winner" of the Savant My Blog awards in our midst.

On topic - it would have seriously helped if Fuckley Jr. had come out and re-trained the Phelps family to fight for marijuana legalization or at minimum the ability to be used for neurological trauma. If we only had more citizens of strong social values instead of corporate lackeys..

Intellectual dishonesty isn't praiseworthy - but it does get you an anchor position on Fox or CNN. Gore's work will still be handing William his ass long into the future.

So, he didn't "believe" the regime change scenario or the oil-grab? Maybe he also distrusts Israel? Curious how Republicans ignore these facts while praising Buckley's pedestal.

And that cherry picked, incomplete re-posting was supposed to mean what exactly?

At least put everything in the correct order and context if you're going to try and repeat it.

"Ya gotta love the self-retorting retort."

Glad you appreciate truth at a minimum.

The truth being only a fool insults someone else's intelligence while misspelling.

"The truth being only a fool insults someone else's intelligence while misspelling."

And the priorities present themselves. Nice ones.

"Evil corporations are out to get you...run for the hills. Stupid. Just plain stupid."

It doesn't have anything to with whether a particular corporation is "evil" or not. It is not a question of "bad apples". It's just the reality of capitalism.

Capitalist enterprises attempt to maximize profits. Corporations are, in fact, required by corporate charters to put profits above all else.

Maximization of profits requires minimizing costs.

Dumping pollutants into a river is cheaper than cleaning them up properly.

The profit motive encourages polluting behavior.

That's just capitalism, for better or worse.

Yes Nulli, un-restrained, people will screw other people. Kudos for stating the obvious.

We have a great system for civil litigation and public exposure. Work with that before running to mommy government to "protect" you.

Or I await some evidence that civil litigation and public exposure is not a deterrent.

Anything from you would be a change from the constant nothing and trolling. Surprise me.

Dumping pollutants into a river is cheaper than cleaning them up properly.

That applies to government as well. I'm fairly sure our government is the worst polluter of all. They have the added incentive in that they can't be sued.

Or I await some evidence that civil litigation and public exposure is not a deterrent.

Yes. Self-regulation was so effective in the past.

It's quite surprising that anybody supported the Clean Air Act, or the Clean Water Act, given that the air and water was already clean.

What were those crazy commies like Richard Nixon thinking!?!

Evil corporations are out to get you...run for the hills. Stupid. Just plain stupid.

Out to get me? How would anyone come to such a moronic conclusion?

Evil corporations are out to make profits at all cost, anyway they can, regardless of the cost to the actual society they reside.

Why would the corporations fight environmental waste? Could it be corporations are not individuals.

Why would corporations fight safety mandates?

I know, corporations are interested in the people and go way way out of their way regardless of cost to make sure all that they do is safe for society.

"We have a great system for civil litigation and public exposure. "

If that were the case, there would be no repeat offenders.

But I still can't get past this: how is it you don't view police, fire, meat inspection, clean air, clean water, interstate highways, etc., as socialist aspects of society? And for that matter, what about the military...isn't America the biggest spender on collective defense in all of history?

"I'm fairly sure our government is the worst polluter of all."

I'm fairly sure you're wrong. How many businesses are there in this country, Ray? How many of them are socialized, nationalized, government owned?

"I know, corporations are interested in the people and go way way out of their way regardless of cost to make sure all that they do is safe for society."

I think in corporate-speak t's called the Pinto Pledge.

""I'm fairly sure our government is the worst polluter of all."

I'm fairly sure you're wrong.

Don't take it, Nullifidian, it's a sucker's bet!

The government is DEFINITELY the worst polluter of all (if by worst is meant the most volume) just due to its sheer size. Yes, there are large companies in this country, but NOTHING close to a serious percentage of the size of government and hence, nothing equal to the volume of pollution.

The freaks come out at night. Have fun with your government love session. By the time you get to talking about how much better socialism is than capitalism, I'll be long asleep.

Thank god people with jobs have more sense than Nelli aka Bill O'Reilly.

Moneywar- not once did I address you. You make zero sense pointing the finger at me for being some kind of anti-regulation thug. I was just trying to defend federalism as defined by our constitution from these idiots who want to claim socialism is inherent to everything while bashing capitalism as inherently contrary to middle class. They said Reagan would eliminate the middle class too ...doom and gloom BS...and it expanded faster than ever before in history. I'm not impressed by empty doom and gloom predictions and corporation bashing as the cure-all for everything that ails us. Nelli aka Bill O'Reilly and Danforth can have a monopoly on that crap.

"I think in corporate-speak t's called the Pinto Pledge."

Ah yes, the exploding Pinto. They made a cost-benefit analysis that it would be less costly to pay damages for the people killed and injured rather than making the necessary repairs.

Capitalism. You gotta love it.

Danforth,

The government is what, about 20% of GDP? I can see how it might be the single worse polluter, but it can't be more than the total pollutants released by the entire private sector.

How many businesses are there in this country, Ray? How many of them are socialized, nationalized, government owned?

What does that have to do with the subject? Haven't kept up with the latest findings, but as I recall, the military is or was pretty careless about where they stored their waste.

Many of those serious forest fires and mudslides are due to incompetent government land management.

If we count pollution in foreign countries, Vietnamese are still suffering from birth defects from agent orange. Iraq was laid to waste.

I don't think we should exempt government when they take a bribe to exempt polluters.

Nulli, I think you should dig a little deeper before conclude government bureaucrats are angels and corporate CEO's are devils. We all come from the same biological stock.

"but it can't be more than the total pollutants released by the entire private sector."

Of course not; all others put together generate more pollution than the government. But you're right, by worst, I interpreted single worst.

"They made a cost-benefit analysis that it would be less costly to pay damages for the people killed and injured rather than making the necessary repairs."

So lobby your elected officials to make punitive damages for the more offensive acts or omissions easier to award. Or is that too simple? You'd rather inspect, audit, regulate, and inspect the inspectors and audit the auditors ... all under the umbrella of the most incompetent people a master fundraiser (aka politician) can get away with appointing. See the difference?

"Nelli aka Bill O'Reilly. "

Little kevin seems obsessed with my handle. Kinda of creepy, Kevin. I'm not letting you anywhere near my handle, perv.

"pretty careless about where they stored their waste."

And that was the other side of the argument, Nullifidian. One could argue one pound of uranium is a lot worse than a ton of soot from a smokestack.

"Nulli, I think you should dig a little deeper before conclude government bureaucrats are angels and corporate CEO's are devils. "

That's a strawman, Ray. I have said nothing to indicate I believe in either proposition.

I said just a few posts above that corporations are just following the dictates of capitalism. That's not a moral judgement, just an observation.

Nulli-

Don't flatter yourself there hypocrite. I hold a mirror to you and you WHINE? AGAIN???

What a crybaby you are. No one cares when a notorious troll gets trolled. You can't stop repeating personal stuff and you cant handle a little repeating of your former handle? Piss too many people off with that handle? It WAS getting ugly for you, I realize.

Keep whining there boy. It suits you.

If we count pollution in foreign countries, Vietnamese are still suffering from birth defects from agent orange. Iraq was laid to waste.

You know very well that I am just as opposed to militarism and imperialism as you are. I thought we were talking about domestic pollution.

You can only hold a mirror to the structure that supports the base concept Kevin.


The true reflection of ugly lies in the sub structure of blog specific thought.

"I hold a mirror to you and you WHINE? AGAIN???"

Buzz off, troll. Serious people like Ray, Andrea, Danforth, and Moneywar are trying to have a discussion here.

You, on the other hand, seem to have a hardon for me. It's creeping me out, you weirdo.

Asshamer, very philosophical, but sometimes things are more complex than one base thought. One can mirror one aspect, such as tone, while holding fast to a "base ideal" that differs completely.

"One could argue one pound of uranium is a lot worse than a ton of soot from a smokestack."

True. But that certainly doesn't imply that there would be less pollution if industry were allowed to regulate itself.

I thought that was the proposition being argued.

"idiots who want to claim socialism is inherent to everything while bashing capitalism as inherently contrary to middle class."

Nice strawman. Capitalism is just fine with me; I just don't want it to be the guiding principle of my police department.

"You'd rather inspect, audit, regulate, and inspect the inspectors and audit the auditors ... all under the umbrella of the most incompetent people a master fundraiser (aka politician) can get away with appointing. See the difference?"

Yup. Your way led to a two-class society of robber-barons and poor workers. And your way leaves all accountability at the courthouse and none at the ballot box. Still, somhow you're worried about the auditor the politician appoints, but you'd be okay with the judge the politician appoints?!?

Kev, I have explored the depth of this structure, made them my own, subverted them to my whim.

I know you don't know me, but beleive I know of what I speak.

I am on your side.

Hey Rex, wassup?

"Buzz off, troll. Serious people like Ray, Andrea, Danforth, and Moneywar are trying to have a discussion here.

You, on the other hand, seem to have a hardon for me. It's creeping me out, you weirdo."


WHAAAAAA

I'm getting out-trolled and I can't troll in peace.

WHAAAAA

LOL.

You make my night there retard. So sorry to disrupt your online ego trip. I guess you'll just have to go kick a puppy instead. Or you could address one substantive issue like a normal human being and not a trolling moron who can't handle receiving exactly what he dished out regularly. Not my fault you tee yourself up every time you hit "post". I do find it funny as shit though.

Around here, I'm the big bad wolf.

Asshammer-

I think I actually understand. The medium is inextricably related to that which makes us dangerous. Mirroring it is, thus, just as inherently dangerous?

"Your way led to a two-class society of robber-barons and poor workers. "

Yep. Been there. Done that. That's why regulated capitalism, the mixed economy, came into existence.

And to this day, the most prosperous countries in the world are all mixed economies.

No, ....you just can't win against the multiple tenacles of the hard left.

You can chop one off and then 100 more, they will still continue to come.

The only possible victory is against the base concept inherent in the blog.

" Or you could address one substantive issue like a normal human being"

Look, you fucking moron. I've been doing nothing but trying to stay on topic and all you can do is stalk me.

Either stick to argument or Shut. The. Fuck. Up.

Fucking trolls.

Danforth-

""idiots who want to claim socialism is inherent to everything while bashing capitalism as inherently contrary to middle class.""

Nice strawman. Capitalism is just fine with me; I just don't want it to be the guiding principle of my police department."

Not a straw-man, genius. It is EXACTLY what your buddy Nulli said earlier in the thread...feel free to just scroll up and read. And no one is asking the police department to be "for profit" ... we're just talking about personal/local being inherently better or worst than centralized/federal. The morons were the ones who decided to intervene by re-defining socialism as anything remotely related to any kind of governance. That was not the point at all.

"Yup. Your way led to a two-class society of robber-barons and poor workers. And your way leaves all accountability at the courthouse and none at the ballot box. Still, somhow you're worried about the auditor the politician appoints, but you'd be okay with the judge the politician appoints?!?"

My way is exactly what was envisioned by the framers. And you REALLY trust the ever-changing political appointees more than legal experts who have to justify and explain their reasoning to their peers? That is crazy to me. Everyone knows who gets appointed...people from the very industry they seek to "regulate". What a joke government is. And changing it is near impossible at that point as it turns into a political football as promises and money are exchanged. I don't know why you think the courts are responsible for robber barons. There was no judicial conspiracy.

"Look, you fucking moron. I've been doing nothing but trying to stay on topic and all you can do is stalk me.

Either stick to argument or Shut. The. Fuck. Up."

LOL.

WHAAAAAA

I can't hold my own in a real contest.

WHAAAAAA

WHAAAAAA


Actually, I'm trying to have some real discussions here Nulli...take your whining trolling ass somewhere else if you can't take it. Crybaby trolls get no sympathy.

Thread over. Null WINS!

Thanks, Spud. Yes, the thread is over. I'll leave the rest to my own personal troll.

HAHAHAHA

Nulli says one blatantly obvious thing that doesn't reek of Bullshit, and now he's retiring.

Now THAT tops all. What a great night!

Kevin,

The big difference seems to be the courts punish the transgression for happening, whereas the government regulations are there to keep it from happening again. As many repeat offenders as there are, how many more would there be without government oversight? And remember, lawmakers aren't visionaries, they're reactionaries. And knee-jerk reactionaries at that (with the emphasis on the jerk). Virtually none of these regulations occur in a vacuum: no laws preventing acid rain until after it became a problem, etc.

"Everyone knows who gets appointed...people from the very industry they seek to "regulate"."

Don't let the shitty governing of this current crop of so-called Republicans fool you. Not every administration is based on cronyism over competence. It's too bad some people believed Reagan so much when he said "government is the problem", they set out to prove him true.

"My way is exactly what was envisioned by the framers."

Thomas Jefferson or Ben Franklin spoke of South Jersey's right to dump toxic sludge just this side of Delaware's state line?

Seriously, I thought their whole point was the United States...wouldn't that necessitate forming "oversight committees" for the 'common welfare'?

And, generally speaking, without governmental tracking systems, an outbreak of, say, mad cow wouldn't be traceable or able to be isolated.

Danforth-

"The big difference seems to be the courts punish the transgression for happening, whereas the government regulations are there to keep it from happening again. As many repeat offenders as there are, how many more would there be without government oversight? And remember, lawmakers aren't visionaries, they're reactionaries. And knee-jerk reactionaries at that (with the emphasis on the jerk). Virtually none of these regulations occur in a vacuum: no laws preventing acid rain until after it became a problem, etc."

You sound downright rational here. No issues here. But you miss that fear of being punished is a big part of civil liability. Lawyers are constantly pulling back the reins on their corporate clients because they fear litigation ... it is a long and expensive process nearly any way it goes down.

"Don't let the shitty governing of this current crop of so-called Republicans fool you. Not every administration is based on cronyism over competence. It's too bad some people believed Reagan so much when he said "government is the problem", they set out to prove him true."

I know it is easy to blame this exceptionally bad administration for everything, but it is not just a Bush problem, or a republican problem. To believe so is the very definition of cronyism.

"Thomas Jefferson or Ben Franklin spoke of South Jersey's right to dump toxic sludge just this side of Delaware's state line? "

The point, in case you missed the blatantly obvious, was that they would have said take it to court and stick it to the bastards. If law-makers see a common threat, they should do the work that benefits everyone in the most logical bottom-up way. Toxic sludge is the seminal example of a federal issue because it impacts everyone and no one else could do it. See the difference?

from above...

eARTHMused...YOU HAVE PROVEN AGAIN TO BE THE IDIOT YOU ARE. The GOP numbers are at a record high....high enough to exceed the socialist demos last two elections. Yada, yada, yada, ala inifinitum, ala boring, ala run on at the mouth forever, ala I like to hear myself speak, ala okay I am finally finished...

Some of the dopeheads stay dopeheads, don't they EarthmUsed?

AWESOME!!...HOME RUN...I REALLY HIT YOUR HOTBUTTON DIDN'T I? Yeah a Fed like myself who has a decade of experience as a Single Parent and a Social Servant, unlike yourself, has absolutely no sense whatsoever of what I talk about. You are a case BUSYB.

What, does the Current Administration pay you to come onto this website and trash talk any democrat, especially the annoying correct ones like myself-- you know--the one's who point out again and again how utterly incompetent the Current Administration is, and how utterly false all of the RNC promises of the last two decades have been, do they pay you to come on here and blog and try to tear such people down with your...Witty 4th grade school-yard banter...you know, the type filled with socialist this, and, dopehead that...

Here, let me help you out, since you seem to be vernacularly challenged. How about mixing up your
descriptors, like, pinko leftist commie, or, liberal socialist leftist scum...

Oh by the way, this, pinko leftist socialist liberal scum actually makes maps about things that you don't have the clearance to see...you know, things that safeguard troops, probably your kid, or nephew, or relative of someone down the street...

You know I am fairly disappointed, I had expected so much more from my Rightwinged Tunnelvisioned Televangelistic Blowhard Competitors.

I mean you have the Vitriol right, but where is the Quasi-Intellectual Banter, the Witty Bombastic Self Rightous--we are the only true American--wrapped in the Flag and the Bible Bullshit that I am used to?

Very, very, disappointing...

(hint) Step off kid, go and get an education, get a vocabulary, and then come back and try again...

this Meal is Served...


I'd like to say Next...but you know...a leftist commie slacker like myself has to umm...get back to
WORK saving your @ss.

Herm, please don't confuse true conservatism with the debacle that is George W. Bush...shame on you.

"... don't confuse true conservatism with the debacle that is George W. Bush..."

True conservatism is the cause. George W. is the effect. What am I missing? herm

"True conservatism is the cause. George W. is the effect. What am I missing? herm"

Nothing, Herm.

For these people, Bush is a conservative when he is popular.

Bush is a liberal/socialist when he has a 19% approval rating.

"Herm, please don't confuse true conservatism with the debacle that is George W. Bush...shame on you."


Conservatives put Bush into office. The shame in on you.

Nullifidian-
Twice.

It's truly amazing to see idgets who's quality of life is rapidly dwindling due to the implementation of Reaganomics continue to cheer saying how wonderful and great Conservatism is. That's right make the rich richer while you people sink. Conservatism is a brilliant scam swallowed hook, line and sinker by average working stiffs.

Back in the 60's my dad, a staunch evangelical, used to say all the time, "the Republicans are the party of the rich. Everyone else suffers when they're in power".

Nothing's changed.