Wow -- a political junkie's dream.

The Kodak Theater where the debates are being held tonight is only a 20 minute drive from my house. If I thought I had any chance of getting inside (I don't) I'd be there just to see some history being made. Security for this is unreal -- very heavy.

All the major Democrats are now in the theater now -- both Clintons, Kennedy, Obama, not to mention umpteen other political heavyweights. Look in the audience and I'll bet you'll see some of the Hollywood crowd too.

If you watch and see the reporters talking outside and you happen to see the mountain range behind them -- those are the same mountains/foothills behind my house.

Hey Chris - my DH said the other evening, if Hillary becomes the POTUS we are going to declare our house a separate country, not a separate state but a separate country. He wants nothing to do with her. Personally I think we just might move back to the UK, but I like his idea better :)

our children want to move to a war torn area in iraq if she's elected.

gobama!

no, i'm not a dhimmicrat - i am a conservative.

but, gobama anyway!

Hey Chris - my DH said the other evening, if Hillary becomes the POTUS we are going to declare our house a separate country, not a separate state but a separate country. He wants nothing to do with her. Personally I think we just might move back to the UK, but I like his idea better :)

Posted by Litlebritdifrnt

He sounds like a smart fella.

They are seated close enough to slap each other. One can only hope.

LILBRIT


Hey Chris - my DH said the other evening, if Hillary becomes the POTUS we are going to declare our house a separate country, not a separate state but a separate country. He wants nothing to do with her. Personally I think we just might move back to the UK, but I like his idea better :)

If Hillary wins do you think your DH would be willing to rent me a spare room in your house?
I may move to your "new country" too hahahaha.

Huge crowd outside the theater. Democrats have the wind at their backs this year.

Dang! I've got to buy myself a laptop. I've got the tv in the den and the computer in the kitchen.

Hey Rcade,

Comments on this thread don't appear on recent comments.

What about people who have religious reasons for not wanting medical care? You can only make it availabe -- you can't force it on people. The LAST thing I want is being forced into some lousy HMO. I want choice of my own doctors.

Does Hillarycare mean they are going to dump Medicare now?

Chris - hell yes, we got boat loads of room in the one acre new country :)

Hillary needs a new hairdo -- a little longer in length and some bangs would look better.
She's had the same hairdo for the last 15 years. Hillary does look good tonight though. Looks like she's had a chemical peel on her face and definitely had a brow lift. Nothing wrong with that especially in a country that is so superficial looks seem to matter before anything else.

The Greatest Show on Earth. Bring in the clowns.

LilBrit

Thanks! I'll know if I need to start packing this November. :)

Touche, Obama!

Baby, although I chose this lonely life
It seems it's stranglin' me now
All the wild men, big cigars, gigantic car
They're all laughin' at the lie
Oh, I've been used Ooo-oo-oo-oo
I've been a fool Oh, what a fool
I broke all the rules Oh, yeah
But I must let the show go on -Hillary Clinton

Hillary, how are you going to pay for Health care?

Answer, Cut Bush's tax breaks and institute electonic health records.

What in the name of God is she on?

My only concern with Obama is that he seems (and looks) too young to have the necessary experience needed by the next President in order to hit the ground running and start reversing some of the damage done by 8 years of the worst president in U.S. history. Our country is in too deep a mess to have a president who needs on the job training. BUT if Obama is the only choice other than Hillary I'll pick Obama.

I *don't* hate Senator Clinton. I think she could be a ten-times more effective Senate Majority Leader than Harry Reid. A leader in what should be the real seat of power in our country... the people's congress.

Obama's enthusiasm, decency, support, and brilliance don't come along often, though. I think he'd make the more dynamic head of state.

I would vote for Clinton, I suppose, if it were McCain v Clinton. I like McCain better, honestly. I think he's more competent than either Clinton. But, I want John Paul Stevens and Ruth Bader Ginsberg to be able to retire with peace in their hearts after what they've had to witness.

And while I'm commenting, I wish we could figure out a way to get CNN, FNC, and MSNBC out of the debate process. I will not pay my local cable monopoly over $600 a year, just for civic information. I'll read it or Youtube later. With digital-over-the-air TV, I suggest that, as a condition of public broadcasting status, every PBS station has to carry every debate (on one of their "subchannels"), and if a cable company is the sponsor, they have to provide the feed for free.

HOT QUESTION!

Black Americans are getting killed in the job market by the massive invasion of illegals. Let's see Obama dance around this question.

Comments on this thread don't appear on recent comments.

Fixed. Thanks.

Thanks, rcade.

Chris,
Did you notice that Hillary actually gave a more honest answer about the impact of immigration on jobs?

Fixed. Thanks.

Posted by rcade


There's a good sysadmin.

Why does Obama keep saying "immigrants"?
The question is about ILLEGAL immigrants. What a sleezy cop out by Obama. He knows the question was not about legal immigration. I take back my Obama vote. He's a phony. Little does Obama know that no Latinos are going to vote for him. Latinos and Blacks are both minorities and Blacks increasingly feel that their particular issues are being overwhelmed in place of giving priorities to Latinos. Obama is clueless.

Obama wants drivers licenses for illegals too.
That is a HOT issue here in California and 2/3 of Californians are adamently against DL for illegals.

btw -- everytime you hear the buzz words "Comprehensive Immigration Reform"? Those are code words for amnesty for 30 million illegals (not the 12 million the press keeps saying), open borders, and unlimited guestworkers to take jobs away from American workers.

The importance of this presidency is who will appoint the next Supreme Court Justices. Those judges are much more important than the next temp in the Whitehouse. Those judges will decide the future of America.

There is NO job shortage in this country.

But there is a job shortage of American citizens willing to work for third world wages.

That is what corporate America wants -- stagnant wages kept at third world levels.

"Amnesty! Aack!'

Posted by OohRah

It worked so well before.

The way Hillary just said "Jesus Christ" sounded more like my dad used to say it when he hammered his thumb.

"But there is a job shortage of American citizens willing to work for third world wages."

You Are Damn Skippy On That Chris !!!

-Sarge

Our immigration laws are not "broken" like they keep babbling.
We merely need the immigration laws already on the books to be enforced.

Notice the phony crap of how they keep trying to mix "illegal" in with "legal" -- what an insult to every LEGAL immigrant who came to this country over the years and stood in line and followed the laws to become U.S. citizens legally.

It's an old trick where the open borders crowd tries to make anyone concerned about ILLEGAL immigration look racist as if they are also against LEGAL immigration. Hillary is a joke.

Both of them suck on immigration, but I understand the need for the votes. And what the hell, an undocumented worker never took a job from a black in Illinois.

Chris you can't take back your Obama vote cause the alternative is Hillary = NAU or McCain = NAU, where have you got to go?

The immigration system does NOT need to be changed.
Just enforce the immigration laws already on the books -- something that has not been done for the last 15 years.

"an undocumented worker never took a job from a black in Illinois."

Posted by wisgod

No, but they take a lot of jobs from college students.

It's not "undocumented worker."

It's illegal alien; criminal; even invader.

This debate is so much more substantive and serious than last night's GOP debate, which was characterized by some nasty personal sniping. I'm a little disappointed.

"The immigration system does NOT need to be changed.
Just enforce the immigration laws already on the books -- something that has not been done for the last 15 years."

Damn Chris You Have This One Nailed Down !

Go By The Damn Rules And All Would Be Fine. McCain Said That A Year Ago And I Agree. Don't Open The Flood Gates Use The Flow Control.

-Sarge

Why pander all the time to illegal aliens? They supposedly are not suppose to be voting. Hispanics only make up 6% of the voting population. Hillary and Obama don't have a clue. Illegals have cost California alone $9 BILLION last year. Our state is in fiscal meltdown right now. Too long to go into the details but you cannot have a state literally absorb the entire population of poor of a 3rd world country (Mexico) and not have your own economy begin to collapse. That's what's happening now in California. The entire burden is the the California LEGAL U.S. citizen who has to pay for them. Bush won't help out with the costs at all. Arizona finally took matters into their own hands this January and passed their own immigration laws.

The LEGAL minorities and low wage workers in my state are being hurt badly because they cannot compete with cheap third world labor pouring in the millions. That's a fact.

"My BS meter has pegged."
- OohRah

I have never watched any of the debates.
That's all the review I need.

I know some Navy guys; They're good.
And McCain walked the walk.
But he's OLD. Who's the veep?

She can't give a response without saying something snotty, can she?

She's like a spoiled little 15 year old who has to get the last word or jab in any argument. Even if it soils her entire argument.

Rcade --

This debate is so much more substantive and serious than last night's GOP debate, which was characterized by some nasty personal sniping. I'm a little disappointed.

Awww, don't feel too disappointed.
There's still time for them to come to blows on the stage. I'm still hoping.....

That is what corporate America wants -- stagnant wages kept at third world levels.

Posted by CalifChris at 2008-01-31 08:47

Because corporate America can find third world workers. This is not out of malice. That's where business is growing the fastest.

"This debate is so much more substantive and serious than last night's GOP debate, which was characterized by some nasty personal sniping. I'm a little disappointed."

Posted by rcade

Maybe I'll vote Socialist Worker's Party again.

It's not "undocumented worker."

It's illegal alien; criminal; even invader.

Posted by Zatoichi


Zat, I think you know what I mean. I've had it with every candidate when it comes to this. If they are going to force Univeral Health care on everyone, get rid of the Illegals before they get thrown into the mix. These two asses want to spend before they even get into the store.

Whoaaaaa, She Said It Was Last Month As Being A CEO, WTF ?

-Sarge

" That is what corporate America wants -- stagnant wages kept at third world levels."

That's capitalism, Chris. The sole priority of business is to maximize profits. If you don't like it, you need to rethink your advocacy of capitalism.

Mit Got Slammed

-Sarge

What is up with these questions ?

-Sarge

It's illegal alien; criminal; even invader.

People who speed are breaking the law too. Are they defined by this act to the point they should be described merely as "criminals" or "illegals"?

If my great-grandparents had been starving in Ireland because of the potato famine, I have no doubt they would have come here illegally if that's what it took to feed their family.

I'm tired of the demonization of a group of people who would, if given the opportunity, happily pursue a path to citizenship here.

Nuts!!

Where's the mud wrestling?!

"if given the opportunity, happily pursue a path to citizenship here."

Posted by rcade

Like the guy who killed the cop in Houston after being deported?

The border's a joke.
The only reason a nuke hasn't gone off is nobody's tried.

In all fairness, the path to citizenship is absurd.

I liked Obama answer to the hate bait of illegal immigration. Clinton is not to subtly playing catch up.

Billy --

We have always had capitalism and I have nothing against it.

I do know, though, that you cannot have the now current "Bush-style capitalism" be allowed to continue and expect Americans and our way of life to survive.

Bush-style capitalism for the last 8 years has allowed the corporations to run amok with NO rules, NO regulations, NO restrictions of any kind, and he even allows them to write their own laws.
That is not the type of capitalism we need in this country. We need a President NOT owned by corporate America.

BINGO!

NO MORE BUSHES
NO MORE CLINTONS

Pow! Great question.

"I do know, though, that you cannot have the now current "Bush-style capitalism" be allowed to continue and expect Americans and our way of life to survive."

Bush-style capitalism also describes Clinton-style capitalism and Reagan-style capitalism.

Wow, Hillary sure seemed to get all tingly when she was talking about "cleaning up after bush". I know your face tends to get a little sticky, but she seemed thrilled by the prospect.

Creepy.

Like the guy who killed the cop in Houston after being deported?

My great-grandparents immigrated to the U.S. and didn't kill anybody. Millions of immigrants have come here without killing a single person, even if they had it coming. Many citizens commit murders.

Dragging out an anecdote about some undocumented immigrant who committed a murder, as if the two subjects were related at all, is sheer demagoguery.

I'm tired of the demonization of a group of people who would, if given the opportunity, happily pursue a path to citizenship here.


Posted by rcade

"That's capitalism, Chris. The sole priority of business is to maximize profits. If you don't like it, you need to rethink your advocacy of capitalism."

Moreover, because of "fiduciary responsibility" as the LAW of a public corporation, they are required to do nothing that might not maximize profits. They *must* send jobs overseas and pollute, or they're breaking the law.

I liked Obama answer to the hate bait of illegal immigration. Clinton is not to subtly playing catch up.

Oh bull! Obama racebaited himself by trying to make anyone concerned with illegal immigration look like they were against any kind of immigration at all.

Obama intentionally kept using only the word "immigrant" when talking about illegal immigration and on purpose mixing those who obeyed our laws and came here legally together in with the same group as those who break our laws and enter our country illegally. What an insult to every law-abiding immigrant who has come to our country. Obama slapped them in the face by lumping them all into one group.

shit

Dragging out an anecdote about some undocumented immigrant who committed a murder, as if the two subjects were related at all, is sheer demagoguery.

Sheesh! Welcome to the DR. How long have you posted here RCADE?

LOL

"They *must* send jobs overseas and pollute, or they're breaking the law."

That's exactly correct, Lawnchair.

Dragging out an anecdote about some undocumented immigrant who committed a murder, as if the two subjects were related at all, is sheer demagoguery.

Posted by rcade

You're right. ILLEGAL, not undocumented!

Fisher Stevens just endorsed Obama with his applause. I'm sold.

There is A Difference Illegal is Illegal ! That Is Like An Unauthorized Withdrawal from From The Bank Is Not A Bank Robbery.

-Sarge

Sheesh! Welcome to the DR. How long have you posted here RCADE?

I don't agree with a lot of people in this community on immigration. Including, to my surprise, some Democrats here who are hardliners on the issue.

I think we need them and should value their contribution and find a way to offer a path to citizenship for them.

Right BINGO Inspectors !! She Voted Against Them !!

-Sarge

I'm tired of the demonization of a group of people who would, if given the opportunity, happily pursue a path to citizenship here.


The ENTIRE third world wants a path to citizenship here.
The 1986 amnesty bill was suppose to stop more illegal immigration but all it did was encourage millions more to come here illegal to wait for the next amnesty.

Come here legally, obey our laws when you get here or don't come here at all. How many third world workers do you think this country can absorb by the MILLIONS before our nation becomes just like the third world country they left. Get real. That anmnesty immigration reform bill would not only have given amnesty to about 30 million illegals already here but also had a clause "family reunification" which was estimated to bring in another 66 million more from third world countries. That McCain/Kennedy amnesty bill was NOT only about amnesty -- not by a long shot..

Add to the family reunification clause in that bill the unlimited H1 visas clause also in that bill and you've now got well over 100 MILLION more uneducated, low skilled, non-English speaking people allowed to pour into this country of 300,000,000.

Take off the rose colored glasses and start looking at hard figures in that disasterous shamnesty bill. The devil was in the details. That shamnesty bill written in the dead of night also put in a clause to "fast track" the NAU -- which will be the death knell of the USA. Read the fine print.

Chris you can't take back your Obama vote cause the alternative is Hillary = NAU or McCain = NAU, where have you got to go?

I know, LilBrit -- they all suck.

I think we need them and should value their contribution and find a way to offer a path to citizenship for them

In addition, we could accept political reality and acknowlege that we are NOT going to send these people home. Whether or not you like it, Amnesty is the only real option here.

Just because he didn't vote for the war isn't a qualification for the presidency. Hillary does come across as very knowledgeable. I am certain the republicans will eat Obama alive. He's doesn't come across as ready!

Bush-style capitalism for the last 8 years has allowed the corporations to run amok with NO rules, NO regulations, NO restrictions of any kind, and he even allows them to write their own laws.

If only that was true. They are not operating under free market conditions. They better term is fascist capitalism or crony capitalism.

They're highly regulated by regulations that protect them from competition, exempt them from many liabilities and subsidize their operating expenses.

It shows better judgement and courage to stand alone if right, despite the "crowd".

The Inspectors Were Already In Hill !!

That Is What Inspectors Do; Inspect !!

-Sarge

Obama uses the term "flawed ideology" regarding Iraq.

I thought GWB has murdered 500,000+ people for corporate profits. How come neither of them use terms like that?

Where is the candidate of the DR left?

They aren't in THIS debate!!

Hillary does come across as very knowledgeable.

This is one of her best performances, aside from the Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton question. She wants it both ways: "Consider me on my merits, but give me credit for my husband's accomplishments."

Other than smart answers to get the crowd going... Obama lacks substance. It's like putting Bush in office again.

Rcade -

I respect your opinion and concern. We certainly need immigrants if our nation is going to keep growing. And I don't blame them for seeking a better life in a less overpopulated part of the world. The problem is, I think it's time we *stopped growing*. Sure, ending growth is absolutely the most horrible thing imaginable to some. And it will entail a major economic shift. But, from an environmental standpoint, that *has* to happen some day. You know 1% growth? The 1% growth we've always depended on? At 1% growth, each person will have 1 square meter of land surface on the earth in... only 1006 years from now.

We have to stop growing at some point. Better to choose it now than at a much larger number on a much more degraded continent. If we can't do it across the world, we have to start at home.

Hillary does come across as very knowledgeable

Damn Double Talk !!

I Wanted Them To Inspect Before I Authorized The War That The Intelligence Was Wrong, That I Approved Of; WTF

-Sarge

"Where is the candidate of the DR left?

They aren't in THIS debate!!"

I'm not familiar with this poster "DR Left". Who is his or her candidate?

Obama lacks substance. It's like putting Bush in office again.

How Much Is The Crack Going For In Your Local Area ?

-Sarge

I got a primary ballot today. The sequence is interesting.

Republican: McCain, Huckabee, Giuliani, Paul, Thompson, Romney.

Democratic: Obama, Clinton, Biden, Richardson, Kucinich, Edwards.

It looks to me like the politicians in Jersey favor McCain and Obama. They put Romney and Edwards after all the losers.

Obama still trips on facts. She is making him look likeher VP.

Boy what a horse laugh Hillary just gave out.

I think it it a nerve about them being Team Billary.

'trips on facts'

Harvard

Law

Who will be McCain's VP?

I'm not familiar with this poster "DR Left". Who is his or her candidate?

Posted by Bill_OReilly

I own a large paintbrush Bill. You always call me on that. If I addressed all posts here where "the right" was mentioned then I would have to post 1500 times a day.

Blitzer asks it.

Hillary has the same fake, forced laugh every time they ask her about Bill. Anyone else notice it? AH! She just did it again when they asked about the "dream ticket".

Yikes.

Ray

Do you really think you could handle McCain as president and having to listen to EIGHT years of his phony and whiny habit of calling everybody his "friend"? "Well now my friend..." "Look here my friend..." "Let me tell you this my friend...." agggghhhh.

The problem is, I think it's time we *stopped growing*. Sure, ending growth is absolutely the most horrible thing imaginable to some. And it will entail a major economic shift. But, from an environmental standpoint, that *has* to happen some day.

Has to happen some day? Not in this century. China and India a billion strong each and they have no intention to stop growing. We're just committing economic suicide.

Sheesh. What a love fest.

Interesting to see Obama get Clinton's chair, both before and after the debate.

'What a love fest.'

Posted by Bill_OReilly

I'm listening to 160 meter sideband.

Think it's time for vinyl.

Chris
I tend to change the channel or tune out when politicians talk. My attention span for them is no longer than three minutes. I wasn't aware of McCain's habit.

The days of the Republic are coming to an end. With either Hillary or McCain we'll be closer to a dictatorship if not there. Of the two, I think McCain is the more criminally insane.
His wife is hot.

Billy

I have nothing against legal capitalism -- unlike the current Bush run amok capitalism.

I don't agree with socialism becauseI have nothing against people who become filthy rich -- hey, I wish I was one of them. But if someone has worked hard, didn't exploit others, and made his/her money honesty then good for them. Why make those who worked harder and educated themselves and became financially secure have to share all their money with those who didn't. Not fair.

I do not believe in Bush's brand of corporate capitalism -- "only the rich deserve to live decently and the rest of the world is only here to serve us until they die" mantra.

But to penalize the rich simply because they are rich is wrong too. Capitalism is good if it is balanced fairly for all members of society. That means there are certain rules and regulations by which we must all abibe -- and that includes big business.

abibe - abide

These two tonight were too nice and Hillary looks like the chiwawa dog in the back window of someone's car--nodding and nodding and nodding--as if she agrees with Obama.

Although they are of the same cloth. They just had a report come out that Obama is the most liberal of all the liberals in the Senate. More than Kerry or Kennedy! He probably beats the House too.

And so coy on them being on the same ticket--a little crowded with Bill there.

She dodged the Iraq questions and he dodged the illegal questions.

They don't have policy differences--they are the same--Junior Senators from their respective states and both liberals and cater to the unions and other failed policies of the left.


Murphy

This was a substantial, informative, useful debate. The best of either series, GOP or DEM so far. They both came across as knowing more and being realistic than anything I heard last night.

Clinton/Obama 08!!

"16 Years Is Better Than 8!"(TM)

(Republican Nightmare Scenario # Uno)

Junior Senators from their respective states and both liberals and cater to the unions and other failed policies of the left.

So whether it's a failure of the right or a failure of the left, it's still a failure.

CC--

That is BS to think that Repubs or Bush think only about the rich.

Bush has been trying to change the schools--we owe it to the young people of this nation to get an education that will allow them to do the best they can for the rest of their lives.

Do you think the Dems are on that path with their catering to the NEA who is dead set against school vouchers? They hate home schoolers!--The unions --not the teachers--although they allow crappy teachers to stay in the system--they are ingrained into the system and the Dems are in their pocket.

So the Dems can never change this --because they are in the pocket of these corrupt people who only want power and phuck the kids.

They do the same thing to allow kids to work with mentors--can't do that--they need to be tied to a dirty desk with uninspiring assholes who can't teach their way out of a paper bag.

Corruption and unions are what have torn apart the state of Michigan and the city of Detroit. Perfect examples--tax tax tax and the people who don't work for the gov't leave the state and the city. What is left is people who don't want to change because they are in the system--yet Detroit is now down to 50/50 of people who pay the taxes and those who get the govt paycheck and outrageous pensions that cripple the civilians.

It is a waste what is happening to the school systems around America--and the unions all fight vouchers because they will lose power--not that they are all doing such a fabulous job. They dont care about the kids. Ergo--no change for schools will ever come from the Dems.

Murphy

Ray--you are right on that point--

You notice there have not been any questions to any of these yahoos about the debt or the deficit.

They will blame Bush (the Dems) but what are they going to do about it?

No questions--too hard to answer

Murphy

Clinton won 60-40 among the CNN Undecided Dem group that was 50-50 going in.

That may be the same number as Super Tuesday.

ann coulter came out on hannity and colmes if it comes down to mccan't or hitlery - she said she'd vote for hitlery as she's more conservative than mccan't!

i'm almost with her.

almost.

Murphy

I am non-partisan and belong to neither party but you can spin all you want you can't hide the FACT that Bush has sold out this country to corporate America. Why would you keep defending the man who is the worst President in U.S. history? Good God I voted for him in 2000 but I didn't continue to keep drinking the kool-aid.

Bush has done NOTHING to help the people of this country. EVERYTHING he did was to increase corporate profit. He has privatized for coroprate profit every government program he possibly could, is busy right now trying to get rid of our country entirely and push us into a NAU. We are in debt up to our necks and have a trade deficit in the trillions. Communist China is lending us the money at huge interest to fight his illegal preemptive war.

Even if I didn't have to get going now and could stay here and tell you all that Bush has done wrong, I would run out of bandwidth listing all the rotten things he has done to our country -- especially to America's middle class. Bush DESPISES anyone who is not what he considers to be "in his circle of wealth" when actually if he wasn't born into it would be some unemployed drunk today.

Name ONE THING Bush has done for the people of this nation that didn't have a corporate profit motive attached -- just ONE thing.

" she said she'd vote for hitlery "

Only morons use a Hitler reference to describe Hillary.

The morons hate John McCain only a little less than they hate Clinton. Any Clinton.

But if the talk-show "conservative" haters are marginalized, that will be a good thing.

"But if the talk-show "conservative" haters are marginalized, that will be a good thing."

A betterment of humanity in general.

Hans

Aw pshaw Murphy! Some Republicans hate the public school system because teachers tend to vote Democratic... so their obvious answer is to underfund and try to destroy public education.

Only morons use a Hitler reference to describe Hillary.

Posted by Bill_OReilly at 2008-01-31 10:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

and the other morons point it out! she's a sociocommuno prig!

"Name ONE THING Bush has done for the people of this nation that didn't have a corporate profit motive attached -- just ONE thing."

I hear he exercises a lot.

Nice to see two grown-ups talking after watching the spoiled kids at Reaganfest.

My great-grandparents immigrated to the U.S. and didn't kill anybody. Millions of immigrants have come here without killing a single person, even if they had it coming. Many citizens commit murders.

Dragging out an anecdote about some undocumented immigrant who committed a murder, as if the two subjects were related at all, is sheer demagoguery.

Posted by rcade

that was a different time and place..nukes were not part of the mixture during great pappies time.

The path to citizenship is a JOKE.. many prefer not to be citizens.

The problem is, I think it's time we *stopped growing*. Sure, ending growth is absolutely the most horrible thing imaginable to some. And it will entail a major economic shift. But, from an environmental standpoint, that *has* to happen some day.

Has to happen some day? Not in this century. China and India a billion strong each and they have no intention to stop growing. We're just committing economic suicide.

Posted by Ray

wrong..it will reach equilibrium and that number is determinant upon the world growth rate. you can use the Malthusian variant x(next)=rx(1-x)where r is rate of growth and x = expressed as a fraction between 1 and 0 with 0 = extinction and 1 maximum carrying capacity.

of course severe overpopulation and subsequent die offs are all part of the eventual gravitation towards equilibrium so it could be a bumpy ride.

You want to read more go check out some books from Robert May or some earlier stuff from Lorenz.

this of course can all go haywire from any number inputs including food destruction to disease and war. the only people committing economic suicide is china and india.. the inputs needed to grow exponentially are not there or anywhere.

Name ONE THING Bush has done for the people of this nation that didn't have a corporate profit motive attached -- just ONE thing.

Posted by CalifChris at 2008-01-31 10:30 PM

To Name a Few---

School Vouchers.

Faith Based Initiatives to help the poor, the sick, the homeless, the vets, the people coming out of prison, addicts....

Appoint Strict constructionist SCOTUS--Roberts and Alito.

15 billion to Africa for AIDS--in 2002

30 billion to Africa recommended at the SOTU 2008

1.7 billion to fight malaria, improve education and women's rights in Africa

Hope based initiative to cure cancer

American Competitiveness Initiative --to improve math and science education

Climate Change initiative (goofy)


I am sure you can find the corporate pockets in the above. ;o)

Murphy

Whay don't they ever ask about Trade (NAFTA, GAAT) China, Russia ect.

Here's a statement the Republican National Committee just issued:

"The Hollywood elites loved the Obama and Clinton show tonight, but average Americans who will most feel the pain of the Democrats' misguided policies will not."

More:

"Even while Clinton and Obama both admitted to supporting tax increases on hard-working Americans, they failed to fully account for how they would pay for all their proposals. Both spoke to retreating from the War on Terror, but failed to admit their records of defunding the troops and weakening our national defense.

Today, Obama was crowned the "most liberal senator," and his out-of-the-mainstream proposals left no question that he deserved the title.

Clinton's failure to explain her changing positions will do nothing to restore trust with the American people. After watching these two Democrats pander to Hollywood's liberals, I have never been more confident that a Republican will win in November."

Somehow I still have tha feeling that these people are not going to be "charmed" into compromise.

Bobby Kennedy Jr was right when he said that this will be a fistfight with the GOP.

One of these two has an awful mess to clean up.

Hillary's pandering speech for amnesty and new immigration legislation was the biggest load of crap for the night. Barrack is almost in the same place. Fucking NAFTA, CAFTA, corruption and unwritten policies which put American Citizens best interests after Corporations and foriegners. A long running betrayal of the American people which enjoins both parties at the hip.

"an undocumented worker never took a job from a black in Illinois."

Posted by wisgod

No, but they take a lot of jobs from college students.

Posted by Zatoichi

* * * *

I don't know where you live, but there are a lot of blacks in college now. They can even sit at lunch counters, and ride in the front of buses.

Only morons use a Hitler reference to describe Hillary.

Posted by Bill_OReilly

* * * *

I've noted your reticence whenever a "Bushitler" or "Reichwing" reference is thrown about here by your lefty pals.

"I've noted your reticence whenever a "Bushitler" or "Reichwing" reference is thrown about here by your lefty pals."

I don't use those terms, and have been critical of that kind of language. Just like I've been critical of idiots who label anyone that doesn't idolize the free market "communist".

"...while Clinton and Obama both admitted to supporting tax increases on hard-working Americans..."

Why won't these dickbags admit the Republicans support tax increases on hard-working Americans. They wrote the law that's about to increase taxes; why aren't the authors of the bill ever taken to task?

LOL. That's a little disingenuous, don't you think? They wrote a law which slashed tax rates, but which sunsets in 2010. Not quite the same as writing a law that increases taxes. Let alone, that we "dickbags" "support tax increases on hard-working Americans."

Fair enough, though. I vote to make the tax cuts permanent. How 'bout you? How about Hillary and Obama--how about them?

I don't use those terms, and have been critical of that kind of language.

Posted by Bill_OReilly

* * * *

When?

" I vote to make the tax cuts permanent."

Well of course you do. You benefit from them.

"When?"

I'm not going to go through the archives for you. I've stated that on a number of times. Furthermore, I'm not going to do your work for you. There are enough of you rightwingers around here to call people out when they use a term like "reichwinger".

I'll stick to criticizing red-baiters. Think you can handle your end of the ideological spectrum by yourself?

"LOL. That's a little disingenuous, don't you think?"

Hardly. The Republicans wrote the law, without a single Dem vote. Why won't they now claim authorship?

"They wrote a law which slashed tax rates, but which sunsets in 2010."

Yet instead of claiming that, they claim "the Democrats want to raise your taxes". If you're looking for "disingenuous", you've found it.

"Not quite the same as writing a law that increases taxes."

Horseshit. They want it both ways. They wrote the law which raises taxes on Americans. They just want to blame someone else for what they did, just like always.

"Let alone, that we "dickbags" "support tax increases on hard-working Americans.""

Sorry if I gave the impression you were dickbags. I was referring to the reporters, who give a pass to crap like that.

Obama whipped her ass tonight.

Okay, Danforth. That's interesting logic you're using.

So if the law sunsets, with the Republicans in both chambers writing bills that never make it to the floor, the Dems can say, hey! Don't blame us! We didn't write the law, nothing we can do!

I guess all is fair in politics and war. I guess it begs the question, though, why when George Bush asked Congress to make his cuts permanent, they refused?

Ah well. The Dems can't even manage to bring their own agenda to a vote. I guess it would be asking too much to do something the Republicans want. So I guess when America reverts to Clinton-era tax rates, and 9 million US households go BACK onto the tax rolls, the Dems have their answer ready: it's not our fault that the evil Republicans wanted to raise your taxes, way back in 2003. LMAO.

Well of course you do. You benefit from them.

Posted by Bill_OReilly
* * * *

So do you. And I've been going through the archives, and can't find where you were critical of your fellow libs' characterizations of righties as Nazis.

Maybe you're one of those guys who uses more than one handle, though. Carry on.

"And I've been going through the archives, and can't find where you were critical of your fellow libs' characterizations of righties as Nazis."

I've been around for 3 or 4 years. It's only a handful of posts. But if you want to waste your time researching it go ahead.

"So do you."

You don't know one way or the other.

You're right about that. It's possible that you earn less than $13,000 a year, in which case your tax bill would've been the same under either Clinton or Bush.

Otherwise, I do know.

You don't know shit, dumdum.

p.s. Let me know next time you chastise one of your fellow wingnuts for red-baiting.

I don't care about red-baiting. And I think it's funny whenever the Redneckvilles and that retard Dethspud resort to the Reichisright and the Nazi references. It's a free-form blog, and a free country.

As to your taxes, if you're paying at a higher rate under Bush than under Clinton, you need to fire your CPA, because he's a dumbass. The rates at every single income level came down. So, yes--unless you were paying zero taxes before and you're paying zero now, you're better off under these tax rates than Clinton's. I do know that. Just like I know that you're older today, than when Clinton was president. It's simple mathematics, really. Arithmetic even. So, as usual, you're arguing just for the sake of doing so.

"I guess it begs the question, though, why when George Bush asked Congress to make his cuts permanent, they refused?"

Or better yet: Why, when the Republicans controlled the White House and both houses of Congress, didn't they make them permanent?

"it's not our fault that the evil Republicans wanted to raise your taxes, way back in 2003"

Translation: Whatever you do, don't hold the authors of the legislation responsible. You know, the guys who proposed it, wrote it, passed it, and signed it into law. If the Republicans didn't want to raise taxes in 2010, why did they write a bill which does exactly that?

"you're better off under these tax rates than Clinton's"

Because putting stuff on the charge card is better than actually paying for it, right? When Bush came into office, 11% of our annual federal outlay went to service the debt. In one administration, Bush increased that by over 50%. We used to work less than two weeks a year just to pay interest on the debt; now it's more than three.

Is there anything you actually believe is worth paying for, or is the goal to get the debt load as high as possible?

"I don't care about red-baiting. "

I get it. Red-baiting is OK, but "reichwinger" isn't.

"As to your taxes,"

I haven't said anything about taxes on this thread. Who are you talking to?

I have to admit Hillary sounded pretty good tonight on a few subjects. She also kind of hogged the air time. It seems Obama wasn't getting anywhere near the amount of time to speak on the issues that Hillary did. How come?

It seems Obama wasn't getting anywhere near the amount of time to speak on the issues that Hillary did. How come?



Posted by CalifChris at 2008-02-01 04:09 AM

Because he has nothing really to say....

Personally I think we just might move back to the UK, but I like his idea better :)

Posted by Litlebritdifrnt

Great idea!

"So, yes--unless you were paying zero taxes before and you're paying zero now, you're better off under these tax rates than Clinton's."

Yes, absolutely true, but as John McCain complained when the tax cuts were proposed, we never reduced taxes during war time before....and obviously we shouldn't have then. Oh, I know....but the tax cuts were the only thing that kept the Bush economy rolling.....bull shit alert.....the bulk of those tax cuts went to the wealthy and did not do much of anything for the majority of the American people, the Bush economy existed on home equity which shrank and killed the Bush economy. Those tax cuts are still in effect but the economy sure isn't doing well so it sort of disproves that talking point.

Have to disagree Danni ~

The tax cuts DID in fact help the economy ... & were the major factor in the '02-07 recovery. Everyone paid less taxes, tho you ARE correct, the cuts did affect the wealthy more. But one factor you are missing, that just about EVERY media outlet is missing is that the tax cuts were felt the most by SMALL BUSINESS.

Since 2001, the overall % of employment in this country went from 42% small business to 56% small business. 80% of all job created since 2001 have COME from small business. Those tax cuts were a HUGE reason why that happened.

Also, as for housing, the situation is bad ... terrible .... HORRIBLE. It is in the worst shape it has EVER been in, yet despite that, we have ONLY seen a significant slowdown & not a full out recession or worse, a depression. That is done by LARGE part to the health of other part of the economy, which HAS been driven by small business.

One of the problems with Libs, the media & most talking heads is that they do not understand small business. Most of the time as an owner of a small business your business gets taxed by the IRS at the "Individual" rate/scale, which puts you at a HUGE disadvantage vs a med or large corp. Monies they can use to reinvest or for R & D, we small business owner have to claim as income & pretty much lose 35% off the top. The scale is the problem. A large company can make $100K & will get to keep 90% of that. A small business can make $100K & will lose 28% to the IRS, 12% to self employment & then the state comes in & again, we are on a different scale.

You all want to let the tax cuts expire ... that's fine for people like Gates & Buffet. But for small business owners, they will have to downsize to compensate for the huge tax increase. The Dems should do the samrt thing here, BEFORE the tax cuts expire, they should propose a new bill that leave the tax cuts in place for those making $XXX (say $150K/yr) & at the same time, put small business on the same playing field of our large company brother.

We can all agree that Gate & Buffet can all do without the Bush tax cuts, but Small Business, the driving force of our economy for the past 7 yrs, can not.

I get it. Red-baiting is OK, but "reichwinger" isn't.

"As to your taxes,"

I haven't said anything about taxes on this thread. Who are you talking to?

Posted by Bill_OReilly
* * *

Nope. I said "reichwinger" is fine too. Try to keep up. And you said that as far as your taxes go, I didn't know one way or the other. But I do.

Have a nice day.

"One of the problems with Libs, the media & most talking heads is that they do not understand small business."

Actually as a former small business owner I disagree with who gets the blame for thus burden on small business. Who wrote the present tax bill???
Not libs. This situation as you say is something the Dems need to address.
That said....sorry but I disagree....home equity was where most Americans were getting discretionary income and low interest rates were encouraging them to do so. When the equity began to shrink the economy began to tank. The tax cuts, like it said before, are still in place giving whatever benefit they give but the economy is reeling. What's changed??? Not taxes. Home equity has changed. When you consider all of the homes which had values decrease, add all those values together and then you have a HUGE amount of money which just disappeared from the economy. Granted, it wasn't real anyway but it was spendable as long as the housing market was doing well. Now, it isn't spendable and mortgage payments are rising further decreasing the amount of money many Americans have to spend.

"Since 2001, the overall % of employment in this country went from 42% small business to 56% small business. 80% of all job created since 2001 have COME from small business. Those tax cuts were a HUGE reason why that happened."

Correlation is not causation. Another theory could be corporations became much more cutthroat, and workers found they could rely less and less on "the company", and had to rely more and more upon themselves. And what change has there been in the tax code regarding the individual business, other than an increase in the annual amount of "expensing"?

"Monies they can use to reinvest or for R & D, we small business owner have to claim as income"

What prevents you from reinvesting monies into R & D?

"A large company can make $100K & will get to keep 90% of that."

Methinks you're counting the R & D investment in the "keep 90%". It doesn't work that way.

"Those tax cuts were a HUGE reason why that happened."

Only problem with that idea is that the total number of jobs didn't rise very much, especially compared to the Clinton years, a time before the Bush tax cuts. Jobs result from average Americans having money in their pockets to spend. When wages don't rise but inflation squeezes the budgets of most people we lose jobs. Home equity provided lots of cash to replace rising wages but now it's gone and so there is not income for folks to spend and thus rising unemployment. We need programs of infrastructure repair and other types of government funded high wage employment to put people to work in jobs that provide enough income to boost their spending and thus get the economy going. The stimulus package is a very short term and short sighted fix designed to get the economy through the election and allow it to drop like a rock when Dems inhabit the White House.

The hell it doesn't. I've worked in the past for some of the largest Paper companies & also one of the largest Multi-nationals, R&D monies are easily kept as hidden profits. Hell many (dare I say most) large companies will pile money into R&D & then after the end of the yr, they will pull them back out to pay for 'other' stuff .... thus avoiding taxes.

As for small business, the ones that are taxes on the Individual scale ..... we do not have such options. We can put the money in R&D, but we normally can not take the full amount, normally we will have to count those monies over a 5+ yr period, where the large company can deduct it from their profits all in ONE yr.

As a stated before, small business is on a FAR different scale & we get hammered for it.

As for the 'cause & effect ... I beg to differ. After the Dot.com burst, after the MCI/ENRON/ETC scandals & after 9/11, people had already LOST their job. If the tax cuts had only benefited the super rich & the large corporations, THEY would have been the ones adding jobs. But 'cause the tax cuts did make things a bit easier on small business, they have thrived ..... so far.

To dispel the tax cuts just might have dome their job (at least in some sectors) 'cause you don't like the person who wrote them is silly. You are obviously more interested in your party affiliation than seeing something that works, no matter who proposed it.

As I've said, the Dems & even some GOP members are correct on some issues with the Bush Tax cuts. They did positively effect the rich at a different rate, but the also provided an enviroment of positives for MANY, including the huge expansion of Small Business in this country over the last 7 yrs.

But hey, if you want to continue to think only a Dem can do something positive for the people of this country, go ahead, knock yourself out. It just shows you are cut from the same cloth as Rush & his ilk, you just happen to be the other side of that same cloth.

One other point, if correlation isn't causation, can we use that argument in the Global Warming debate? 'Cause there is far more HARD direct evidence that the tax cuts helped directly spur small business growth in the last 7 years vs Man is the cause of Global Warming. Don't accept that?? Didn't think so. You might want to grab $.50 & buy yourself a cup-'O- logic.

Your right Danni, jobs didn't rise much .... & those sectors that LOST jobs were the large corporations.

If the tax cuts ONLY benefited the Corporations (as YOU & many other here have stated for 6+ yrs), why was it specifically THOSE companies that were cutting jobs?

Since 2001, companies with 100+ employees have lost almost 3 MILLION jobs, small business have created enough jobs to offset those losses & end up with a (+) net gain in job.

But now a suppose rather than go after the Evil Big business, the far left will start targeting the small business owners .... 'cause we make too much. Sometimes it's funny watching how certain part of this country actively TRY punish the American Dream rather than help spur the American Dream so more American's can enjoy the +'s of those dreams & their successes.

Axxe,

Whether a company pays for R & D, or "other stuff", they are both deductions, and subtract from the bottom line. Regarding "expensing", companies begin to lose that after $500,000, so a small company has an advantage over a large one in that matter.

One other point, if correlation isn't causation, can we use that argument in the Global Warming debate?"

Why the deflection?

Regarding the other issues, you avoided my questions.

What change did the tax code bring to small business, other than an increase in expensing?

"if you want to continue to think only a Dem can do something positive for the people of this country, go ahead, knock yourself out." "

Who the hell said that? And why do you have to create a strawman to argue your points?

Personally I think we just might move back to the UK, :)

Posted by Litlebritdifrnt



Have a nice trip. We'll miss you.

What about people who have religious reasons for not wanting medical care? You can only make it availabe -- you can't force it on people. The LAST thing I want is being forced into some lousy HMO. I want choice of my own doctors.

Posted by CalifChris at 2008-01-31 08:22 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e


Does Hillarycare mean they are going to dump Medicare now?

Posted by CalifChris


Why don't you just pay attention and listen to the actual proposals, instead of doling out so much made-up drivel.

" I want choice of my own doctors."

I suspect Chris is now employed by the Health Care Industry. He's already spouting their favorite talking point. How much are they paying Chris???

"But now a suppose rather than go after the Evil Big business, the far left will start targeting the small business owners .... 'cause we make too much."

Or we could "suppose" that flying monkeys are working for the evil Wicked Witch of the East.
If either party is going to care about small business it sure won't be the REpublican Party.
Dems proposing national health care plans and one thing that could help struggling small business owners....affordable health insurance....

""Sometimes it's funny watching how certain part of this country actively TRY punish the American Dream rather than help spur the American Dream so more American's can enjoy the +'s of those dreams & their successes.""

Where do you get that nonsense????

Obama clearly won the debate by articulating tactfully THE OBVIOUS weakness in Hillary (judgement/Iraq) and exactly how he plans to take on the Republicans on various issues. Clinton appears to be leaning far too much IMO on her rhetoric of "experience" which in the general election will have little or no weight against a McCain candidacy.

Obama also made his points gracefully with a distinguished presidential demeanor & intelligence that every american could be proud of if he wins this election...and Hillary? She was OK but stated nothing that would inspire confidence in her ability to lead and wounded nation.

The choice is crystal clear IMO, vote Obama.

Their policy differences are miniscule. A more important difference is that Hillary is up to her eyeballs in Special Interest money.

More puzzling is why anyone would want the job of cleaning up after Bush. Its gonna be like touching the Biggest Tar Baby Ever.

I couldnt really tell who won. They both came across as strong canidates for the Democratic nomination.

Answer, Cut Bush's tax breaks and institute electonic health records.

What in the name of God is she on?

Posted by wisgod at 2008-01-31 08:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

Electronic health records are bad according to you, but Electronic voting (w/o a paper trail) is ok?

The choice is crystal clear IMO, vote Obama.



Posted by JohnnieB


spoken like a true MOVEON.ORG-er.