I'm like a kid on Christmas Morning right after I brushed my teeth, but before opening the presents.

This is so exciting seeing the waves of people voting.

It IS exciting, isn't it? Maybe we're not going to take it anymore.

I told you... there is a disturbance in the force...

a good disturbance!

I think we can actually thank George Bush for this one.

He has gone too far.

Change? Change? Anyone have some spare change?

It's kind of amazing how some call the current commander in chief a drug addict drunk but, give Obama a slide for being a drug user.

Yeah, absofuckinglutely amazing.

DONNER

I've always said the brightest blessings come from darkest days.

George Bush, after being the antithesis of everything good about America, turned out to wake up this country to turn a major page and start shining some light again?

I can't wait to see how bright we get. It's been 40 years since we stood on the doorstep of putting aside our remaining differences and going only who knows how high. My hope is we talk about how high we'll go instead of how much farther there is to sink.

It's kind of amazing how some call the current commander in chief a drug addict drunk but, give Obama a slide for being a drug user.

Obama quit when he was 19. He admitted it freely in a bestselling book.

Bush never did fill us in on his drug use, or much else either.

It's kind of amazing how some call the current commander in chief a drug addict drunk but, give Obama a slide for being a drug user.

Posted by Dalton at 2008-01-08 07:12 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Nobody is giving him a "slide" he just took most of the critics ammunition by simply being a man and owning his errors.
Unlike Bush who lied about his arrest record..

Please, guys, don't celebrate too definitively yet! The uglies will still pull something nasty out of the hat. GWB is manufacturing a war with Iran even as we speak. Georgie has sent the market so deeply into the toilet that it may yet take martial law to drag us out. We're all feeling so euphoric that we don't know the Repubs are screwing us again. herm

It's kind of amazing that somebody would make such a dumb post as that, Dalton.

Have you been here very long, SITDOWN?

I wish there were a candidate in the mix that would make me want to celebrate!

Jomama- long enough to HOPE my irony is showing.

It's kind of amazing how some call the current commander in chief a drug addict drunk but, give Obama a slide for being a drug user.

Posted by Dalton at 2008-01-08 07:12 PM

it's amazing how stubborn political convictions can taint a person's judgement. W lies about and denies everything negative about his past and THAT is what people take him up on. It's the HYPOCRACY, see? If he were man enough to admit the obvious, he'd see a big bump in his poll numbers.

But, you'll just follow his lead and refuse to admit the obvious.

Hooray B.H.O.! Hooray for America! :-)

Clinton, Obama tied at 37% right now.

can someone tell me exactly what this guy will do for America besides.. bring HOPE?. Sounds like more hot air to me.

I wanted to say that the people of Kenya are listening to radios in villages across the country.

Obama has been spending a lot of precious time talking with the U.S. Ambassador, opposition leader, and has been trying to reach the president of Kenya too.

Remember JFK in Berlin? "Ich Bin Ein Berliner" He wont the hearts and minds of Germans til this day.

That's right Legio, you're such an astute judge of political character.

Does anyone have a link where the actual results post as they come in?

can someone tell me exactly what this guy will do for America besides.. bring HOPE?. Sounds like more hot air to me.

Posted by Legio at 2008-01-08 07:50 PM

try listening to his message and you will answer your own question.

Hope comes from his message of UNITY not FEAR. His programs actually make sense.

And always remember...he was the only one to ALWAYS be against the war in IRAQ.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
oooooo!!!

Oh well.

9.63% IN: OBAMA 36; CLINTON 38; EDWARDS 16; RICHARDSON 4; KUCINICH 2...
9.96% IN: MCCAIN 37; ROMNEY 28; HUCKABEE 12; PAUL 8; GIULIANI 9; THOMPSON 1...

a tie with Clinton is a win for Obama...

Atleast Obama speaks about opportunity, and maybe he can govern reasonably. HRC platform scares the beans out of me, I have no idea what she stands for except anti Capitalism...

a tie with Clinton is a win for Obama...

The hell with a tie. He needs to "Superman dat 'ho."

OMG The rag is ahead!!!!!!

10%? Geez, wake me when it's 65% or so.

yea not good that Hillary is ahead but Jomama is right we have a long way to go yet...

I am going home and hopefully we will have some better news when I get there!

laters...

CNN already called McCain the winner!


Murphy

It's crazy they would call a race with only 12% of the precincts in--but they are..


Hillary is about 800 votes ahead of Obama..

Murphy

So far, Ghoulianli and Paul are neck an' neck...

Corky--is that you??

Murphy

"a tie with Clinton is a win for Obama... "

You think?

With the sort of expectations built up all day anything short of an enormous victory for Obama will be a big loss - think balloon deflating.

As for Clinton, any win, even small is huge given all the talk today about her pulling the plug.

No Murph, that's just another Gnubsy troll.


"a tie with Clinton is a win for Obama..."

ROFLMAO!!!

A 5 point loss would make her the new "Comeback Kid", lol!

After the buildup of expectations over the last few days, a tie with Hillary would be a huge disappointment for Obama!

Obama '08

Ha! Rudy just took the podium in Manchester congratulated the winners and then left to hop on a plane.

Still saying he has faith in his "all my eggs in one basket" Supa Doopa Pooper Scooper strategy.

Good luck with that sez Spud.

So on the Rep side?

Huckleberry won Iowa
Romney won Wyoming
McCain is gonna win New Hampshire.

Can you say Leaderless?

Spud can.

Spud seriously hopes these early results showing Hill slightly ahead of Obama are just a glitch and that when the other 90% come in.

Now it's Hill 40% Barack 36%.

Yipes!

Maybe folks actually fell fer her misty eyed performance yesterday?

Morons.

Be Well.

Democrats leading in votes nearly 2:1....

CNN just announced Hillary has 40%.

See, a woman's tears will work every time.

Maybe folks in NH actually didn't fall for fer Obama's: "I did not have sex with that war!"

Exit polls show her winning 60 percent of Dems.

He was a drug user. A coke head no less.

Huge turnout! See The Deciderer is uniter!

"He was a drug user. A coke head no less."

And yer a dolt. A pin-head no less.

Looks like Gnubsy has more than one handle tonight.

My mail is down, but if someone would copy their shortcuts and mail them to Rogers, he could take the trash out.

The tears musta worked cause she is pulling away--

The polls showed quite the opposite just Yesterday!

Spud--if you call the Reps leaderless--then the same standard is for the Dems--Obama won in Iowa and HC in NH..hhmmmmmm--right?

I heard that only Hillary is running in MI-for the Dems---is this true? Something about the DNC getting mad b/c they moved up their primary date??

If that is the case then she won those delegates.

Murphy

Fucks News says exit polls show her losing by a small margin.

More than a moral victory.

Corky: got your back.

T'anks, Bri.

"Who loves ya, baby!"

Looks like Rogers already got him.

That Rogers is quick!

At least according to Mrs. C.

Hey Corky--looks like a good night for Hillary.

Still too close--but with a few more precincts they will call the race.

Murphy

Hillary 40 and Obama 34..

This is some crazy stuff folks..


Murphy

Hi Murph

Fox says the reason they aren't callin it at over 20 percent is that exit polling says she loses by a small margin.

Which would still be beating expectations with a stick!

I would be almost as happy to see the look on the face of the collective MSM if it's real close either way, as I would anything else.

"Can you say Leaderless?"

Pot, meet kettle.

Gaaawwwwwd, either way if she wins or loses, EXPECT more Hillary fake crying jags....as they'll think it did the trick!

At least I am in good company, lol!

Ya'll betta watch out fer I Like Mike.

He's got that Southe'n charm.

I loved the NY paper headline after Iowa with a big close-up of Huckleberry with the caption:

SHAZAM!!

I loved the NY paper headline after Iowa with a big close-up of Huckleberry with the caption:


SHAZAM!!



Posted by Corky at 2008-01-08 09:07 PM | Reply | Flag:


Yes, Hillary's fake crying is so much more appropriate for you.

The winner tonight is McCain--he was no where 5 months ago--no money no staffers no nothing--

I don't care for him--I hate his Immigration plan--and he was less than candid about the amnesty part--or failed to explain it right..

That Mac is Back is pretty catchy though..

Hill at 39 and Obama at 35--ouuuuu..

Is it supposed to get closer?

So much for the blow out the polls showed..

Murphy

A lot of Dems could live with McCain instead of Bush any day.

I do love this counting real votes instead of caucuses and polls and the MSM spin thing.

I also like that term, "new ball game", should she even finish close.

Does McCain have a "wink tick" with his left eye?

He needs to wind it up.

And Cork--the Repubs could do worse. Mac is not my first choice.

I really like Hunter and believe it or not--Newt--the man is brilliant. But Newt did such a rotten thing to his wife-It should stay personal business and not for the media to attack--

I thought folks should have stayed out of Clinton's personal life--until he lied about it--Then that lying was personal to the country..

But Newt would blow away all of the Dems and the Repubs with ideas and direction and change for the country --for the better..

Maybe at the end of the primaries and there is no clear winner--the Rep convention will be brokered and in will come Newt and talk and gather the delegates and they go to him and he becomes the nominee.

That would be my fantastic night!

Murphy

I'm sure Mark Penn is cheering like alittle girl. If she looses, one of those heads in the garbage will be his, and Carville will be doing the cutting.

I like ya, Murph, but I draw the line WAY before I get to Newty, lol!

McCain's speech was terrible. All over the map and he looked exhausted. That's not the way to take advantage of a big win.

I'm surprised Clinton's ahead of Obama and may win the night. If I had to guess a reason, I'd say that a lot of women aren't ready to give up on the dream of casting a vote for a female president.

Wis,

Mark Penn turns out to have been right about the bounce, at least eh? Even Bubba said he was wrong about it, that it took 2 days not one.

Carville isn't leaving CNN.

Well it do indeed take all kinds...do you mean Murphey the Gingrich that shut down the government because he had to sit at the back of the plane ?

Rogers, she's winning 60 percent of Dems and winning in Obama country in the Lib west.

I lived in NH/Mass for years, and in NH they don't like the media or anyone else deciding their candidates for them.


McCain didn't give a speech that matched his comeback win.

-I'd say that a lot of women aren't ready to give up on the dream of casting a vote for a female president.



55 percent of married men will never vote for her. Both misogyny and racism are still breathing in America, but maybe this election will put both on life support.

I could certainly deal with McCain getting the GOP nod... I'm pretty happy about this.

I wonder what Edwards' support will look like after tonight. Clearly he isn't going anywhere so will he drop out? Will his support go mainly to Obama?

Hillary continues to prevail in NH with 50 percent of the vote in. So much for all these predictions of her demise...

Hillary in 08'!

So much for all these predictions of her demise...

Yeah, the talk of her dropping out seems very silly at this point

The talk of her being blown out seems very silly at this point.


FDR Dem! I am SO impressed you prefer Hil.

Hillary is the worst choice for the Country(well maybe not the worst)but she's way too devisive. Haven't we had enough of that shit since 1992?

We need someone who is completely different and in no way related to or has the same policies as the a Clinton or Bush.

A whole new direction.

60% in and she's still up two points...

This is pretty amazing given all the polls showing her down 10 points in several polls...

I'm watching Fox News here for the first time in years, and I heard something interesting. Much of John Edwards support comes from Unions... and tonight they're seeing a lot of Hil's support coming from Unions... that may show how his support will fall when he drops out.

why are people voting for her AT ALL ???? my god this nation is so fucked up.

Another familiar lead story is, "It's the economy, stupid!"

And one candidate has some strong familiarity with that issue.


Exit polls still say Obama will win, don't they?

"Is Anna Nichole still dead, Wolf?"

(Best Line of '07!)

But Newt would blow away all of the Dems and the Repubs with ideas and direction and change for the country --for the better..

Yeah, how'd that whole Contract with America pan out? Didn't happen, did it?

btw, Can CNN get any more "we love Obama"?

No, they are the Clinton News Network, haven't you heard?


I keep thinking that the Election Surprise this year will a vid surfacing of Chris Matthews trying to get a room with Obama.

I'm watching Fox News here for the first time in years, and I heard something interesting. Much of John Edwards support comes from Unions... and tonight they're seeing a lot of Hil's support coming from Unions... that may show how his support will fall when he drops out.

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole


Edwards is not on the Michigan ballot, haha! What a dumbass considering it is such a unionized state.

Obama would have also benefited from being in Michigan, but he chose to campaign for prez of IA and NH instead.

Oh lord! Edwards again with his same depressing speech, I bet it's word by word the same depressing speech he gave in Iowa.

btw, Can CNN get any more "we love Obama"?

Posted by northguy3


Well, CNN loves Obama and Murdoch love Hillary. Hillary is Rupert's choice for the White House. He must be happy today.

Oh lord! Edwards again with his same depressing speech

Obviously you have to go with what works... lol.

"Obviously you have to go with what works... lol."

But that's precisely the point, it's not working.

Rob, after reviewing your last few posts; I have to ask, did the Dr. up your tranquilizers?

What's up with the new nice guy persona?

WHERE THE HELL IS WOBBIE??!!?!?!

But that's precisely the point, it's not working.

Posted by member2586


Sorry my sarcasm apparently came poorly across

ACCORDING TO FOXNEWS THE AP JUST CALLED THIS RACE FOR HILLARY...

My money is still on Hillary to be the next president. She's the establishment's choice. I don't know of one case where newcomers upset the status quo.

During her Senate years, Hillary spent a lot of time raising money for others. Now it's time to collect. That's how you get to the White House.

The AP just called the race for Clinton.

Kinda early, maybe.

How does this sound? Obama/Edwards?

Here's a frightening pairing: McCain/Guiliani.

WHERE THE HELL IS WOBBIE??!!?!?!

Posted by briwo


I guess New Hampshire didn't like the idea of paying reperations...

Damnit. The race isn't over yet for the Democrats. Now people have more reason to follow the campaign and visit the Retort.

Or maybe the talking head pundits aren't ready to admit what tools they are.

Here's a frightening pairing: McCain/Guiliani

I was just going to say that they should pair up now and dominate the rest of the primaries. They could then focus on trashing hillary and obama (which honestly isn't going to be that hard in the case of obama).

MSNBC also called it for Hillary

Right on, Rogers. This is great news for the Dem Party and for America no matter who wins.

OK, fer the Ol' DR, too!

Corky must be very happy.

Who's the Comeback Kid?

pretend to cry to get votes...

very presidential.

Can't wait to see her next presidential campaign of deciding between pads or tampons...

Hillary/Obama?

Obama/Hillary?

McCain/Romney?

Romney/McCain?

Who's the Comeback Kid?


Posted by Corky


John McCain by far...

Tampons, less chaffing when you're running from an assasination attempt.

'S'not about me, Bowa, but I think we'll have a better candidate no matter which one it is because we'll have a close race.

But I want to have it ALL!


Clinton/Obama '08!!

16 Years in the Presidency

John McCain by far...

For Sure..

Murphy

OK, maybe only 12!

Clinton/Obama '08!!

Please, please, please run with this ticket...

Oh sweet Jesus... if this would only happen...

I'm going on the record right now. Electing Hillary President will be only compounding the mistake some of us made with Chimpy.

All that crap has gotta go. Flush the fuckers out and get some fresh blood in there.

FOX and CNN have not called it yet.

FF BRI!

Armoured Pantsuits, Inc.

Obama/Edwards

Obama making his way to the podium... this will be interesting...

FOX and CNN have not called it yet.

Posted by Bowa


Fox just did...

This is going to be an interesting election.
I haven't decided yet, not even close. I've only decided who I'm not going to vote for.

The AP called it--

And Hillary won't pick Obama--I honestly don't think they can repair the words they have exchanged. And no one will pick Hillary.

She will pick Wesley--did you see him next to Alldull during the speech in Iowa? Yeah real changing going on..Of course, Wes looked really poorly--lost weight or something..

Here's Obama--and he has a 12 point lead over Hillary in SC..

Should be interesting..

Murphy

"Who's the Comeback Kid?"

McCain.

Watching Obama now.

Women/The Economy/Dems

And some NH'ers who don't like the media electing our Presidents for us.

Don't get "change" in a Convention drinking game or you're toast.

And for facts--NH has picked the eventual party nominee as follows:

Republicans 76%

Democrats 57%

Murphy

100 years McCain and neo-lib Hillary.


Sweet delicious wars. I want us to stay in Iraq for a thousand years. Hopefully one day my kids can die in a Middle-East shithole for nothing.

Nothing quite like some sweet Iraqi-American ceviche.

'S'not about me, Bowa, but I think we'll have a better candidate no matter which one it is because we'll have a close race.

Of course you do.

But I have to say I'm stunned that Hillary won.

Watching Obama now.

Posted by briwo


All this guy does is talk... he says "change" as often as Rudy brings up 9/11... gets annoying.

Also, is there anyone supporting him old enough to grow a beard?

Nooo, that wasn't scripted

LMAO... as soon as I hit publish the crowd erupts into "We want change."

douchechills...

Don't get "change" in a Convention drinking game or you're toast.

Posted by briwo


Holy crap... LOL! You'd be dead less then 2 minutes into an Obama speech...

Hillary/McCain

Hillary/McCain

Posted by briwo


Campaign slogan: Vote Team Sexy '08

OOOOO, shot at Rudy!

Campaign slogan: Vote Team Sexy '08

I was gonna say Vote Team Big Head '08.

OOOOO, shot at Rudy!

Why would he bother at this point?

Wait until Hillary starts critiziing Obama for his liberal voting record in Illinois. It's really liberal--

What's he going to do about the recession and the fed printing money and the deficit and the debt????

He just says we'll change it !! Great answer. The mob is fickle and we'll have to wait and see.


Murphy

Holy crap... LOL! You'd be dead less then 2 minutes into an Obama speech...

Obama's victory speech in Iowa was one of the best speeches I've ever heard -- that's a tough act for him to follow.

OOOOO, shot at Rudy!

Posted by briwo


I had to step away, what did he say about Rudy?

Oh uh... he's turning into "Pulpit Preacher" Obama here... "Yes we can." Uh, no... you cannot.

The "yes we can" and "promised land" stuff seems like a transparent attempt by Obama to connect himself directly to ML King.

He said: We will not exploit the terror of 9/11 for votes.

Or something like that.

I'm kinda buzzed.

First words of the song as he left the podium:

"Like a fool I went and stayed too long."

Yup.

Bowa: agreed, and did you catch the JFK reference?

The "yes we can" and "promised land" stuff seems like a transparent attempt by Obama to connect himself directly to ML King.

Posted by Bowa


I thought the same thing... and it was kind of embarassing.

Some dude talking on H&C just said 17% of GOPers and 19% of dems made up their minds at the polls and that's what gave hillary the win.

Rob, if that's true that doesn't bode well for Obama.

I WANNA hear the first TV pundit to say,

"Ladies and gentlemen, we obviously had no clue at all about anything we were saying about this race.

Please ignore any future comments we might have.

Thank you."

I hope McCain enjoys tonight's 15 minutes of fam
because he's history the minute he hits South Carolina.

Rob, if that's true that doesn't bode well for Obama.

Posted by briwo


Agreed...

Oh here comes ol' nails on chalkboard voice to the podium...

She must love it in the dumper or can suck a mans eyeballs through his cock for Bill to stay with this mess...

Well NH went for experience versus change.

And Hillary was the hostess with the least..for 8 years and is not experienced. But the Dems won't pick Richardson--so there ya go..

Now we have to listen to --oh wait --is she going to cry again!? This is so scripted.. uggghhhh!

Murphy

fam = fame

The "yes we can" and "promised land" stuff seems like a transparent attempt by Obama to connect himself directly to ML King.

As the first black American with a real chance to win the presidency, he is connected directly to MLK.

I like the sweep of Obama's rhetoric. It's Reaganesque.

This makes SC even more fun.

She's gonna fucking cry again...

Bowa: agreed, and did you catch the JFK reference?

Missed that...but I sort of glazed over when he got into sounding too much like a preacher.

I give up about trying to make any predictions for either party at this point -- this race is crazy -- seems like anything can happen now.

Glad I'm not watching anymore.

As the first black American with a real chance to win the presidency, he is connected directly to MLK.

I see your point, but I don't see why he was taking his speaking style... tone and rythm seemed identical...

Glad I'm not watching anymore.

Posted by briwo

Not to get all fruity on everyone, but what the fuck is she wearing?

The crowd doesn't know when to cheer here, but Hillary Clinton is warmer than I expected her to ever be after her robotic Senate campaigns. And she appears to have figured out that a backdrop of pale, aged Clinton hacks is not the best decoration for an election night speech.

A tapestry with thistle?

Hill is boring--get peppy or something..


Murphy

She's gonna fucking cry again...

It helped her win New Hamsphire. Whatever works. *tears*

But Newt would blow away all of the Dems and the Repubs with ideas and direction and change for the country --for the better

"Yeah, how'd that whole Contract with America pan out? Didn't happen, did it?"

Sure it did. And it got soundly thrashed. Of the eight main components of the Contract With America, exactly zero became law.

Newt is hoping to duplicate this success across the entire country.

I see your point, but I don't see why he was taking his speaking style... tone and rythm seemed identical...

That's always his style. He builds up to moments where he's on the verge of preaching, then dials it back down. Obama's a brilliant public speaker. The best among Democrats since Mario Cuomo.

Hillary wants to end the war the right way. Sounds wonderful.

I like the sweep of Obama's rhetoric. It's Reaganesque.

Rcade, I don't really remember Reagans speechmaking enough to make such a compariosn. I just know that Obama's victory speech in Iowa was exhilirating and inspiring, even for a dedicated Republican like me.

This one was kind of boring, too long, and cliche. But like I said, the Iowa speech was a tough act to follow. So maybe my expectations were too high.

As for Hillary, she's always a boring speechmaker. Frankly, so is Rudy sad to say. They are both better debaters then speechmakers.

As the first black American with a real chance to win the presidency, he is connected directly to MLK.

That's a given ...but he doesn't have to try to sound like him in his his speeches.

She wears that jacket outfilt a lot--on c-span and other places on the trail.

I agree on the no people with her on the stage--like in Iowa with old and tired Alldull and Wesley looks like he is really ill..

She is sooooo boring--I won't be able to take this if she wins..


Murphy

A tapestry with thistle?

Posted by briwo


Seriously... it looks like she grabbed a fucking curtain, sewed up the sides and minced out to the podium...

where he's on the verge of preaching

Tonight though, it seemed like he was in full preacher mode... he even said "top of the mountain." Gross... douchechills...

"She's gonna fucking cry again..."

Yeah, that's the problem, Oprah should have taught Obama how to cry, share his feellings and get in touch with his feminie side, then he would have won NH.

She forgot to mention Mike Gravel in thanking the other candidates. Bitch. ;-).

LOVE IT!!!! You Right Wing Hacks, imagine it either a Woman or a Black American will be the next President of the United States....Rush Limbaugh you fucking Hack, Sean Hannity you fucking Hack, what say you now????

"They voted their hearts AND their minds."

Hil on the youth of NH.

(Didn't see any old people on the stage this time, lol!)

It's gonna be fun to watch the networks and pundits "spin" getting the NH primary results so wrong. They are already starting.

imagine it either a Woman or a Black American will be the next President of the United States

Condi Rice is furious!!

So we can have Hillary who breaks down when someone asks her about her hair.

And Obama who is an empty suit and no one knows what he stands for--except change.

Perfect pair for the Dems to have on the ticket.

Murphy

"It's gonna be fun to watch the networks and pundits "spin" getting the NH primary results so wrong. They are already starting."

The bottom line is that people should not pay attention to polls. People should ignore polls and vote for the candidate they like most instead of trying to figure out who will win. This is not a god damned lottery game people, you don't try to pick winners here. When the electorate tries to pick winners, we as Americans end up losing because the people picked are the establishment status quo people who will give us more of the same.

Just ignore the polls. I am happy they got it wrong.

The bottom line is that people should not pay attention to polls.

How do you feel about Bush's approval rating?

BTW Rasmussen has him at 39%... didn't know he was up that much...

Condi Rice is furious!!

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole


They would have accused here of being an uncle tom republican and the now gang would have found excuses to be against her.

You see, it only matters when black or female candidates are liberal, otherwise they get attacked.

They would have accused here of being an uncle tom republican and the now gang would have found excuses to be against her.


Well of course. All us Republicans are Klan robes wearing racists with Hitler mustaches... no "real" black man or woman would be seen with us...

"How do you feel about Bush's approval rating?"

I don't care.

Polls are a nice academic curiosity, but people should not use them as guidelines to vote or to decide whether or not they like the president.

I don't like Bush, I don't need approaval numbers to tell me how to think.

Okay, just as there is no reason to watch the debates until the body count increases, tonight showed there is no reason to listen to any talking head.

btw, RudiG did beat Fredisdead, and sneaked ahead of Ron Paul so Bowa can now chant "He's not the worst!"until SC. Did you catch RudiG's 9-11 reference when being asked about Hillary almost tearing up?

I just hope that all the Obamites who are so very conspicuously absent from this thread are all OK.

Just sent your pants to the cleaners, don't put that mess in the washer!

I WANNA hear the first TV pundit to say,

"Ladies and gentlemen, we obviously had no clue at all about anything we were saying about this race.

Please ignore any future comments we might have.

Thank you."

Corky,

Yes. What I like the best about this is that the so called pundits were all wrong.

Their "objective" coverage usually does more to shape political outcomes than merely predict it.

Perhaps it reflects that many people no longer read or even watch the news.

At least today the opinions of these talking heads seem irrelevant.

Cheers

"Just sent your pants to the cleaners, don't put that mess in the washer!"

Yeah, but make sure the Cleaners are Korean and then claim they lost your pants and sue them for 78 million dollars.

New Hampshire voters have spoken and they have chosen to "stay the course" of the last seven years! Speaking of people conspicuously absent....Corky, I'm glad to see your computer has been fixed and you were able to get back onto DR tonight!

The crying game won't work anymore...Hillary played her ace in the hole way before she had wanted to.

The results tonight just go to show how difficult REAL change is going to be!

YES WE CAN!!

Obama '08

Send your pants, lol!

=Their "objective" coverage usually does more to shape political outcomes than merely predict it.

People don't like the media picking their candidates for them, and apparently it only takes a few days to make up one's mind.

Hillary has aways been considered fair game to attack, and she was for months savaged viciously by everyone involved, in the right-wing, the media, and the far left wing.

NH just kicked their butts for it.

My PC has been fine, RP. Click my handle and you'll see.

Or, you could just whine some more.

NH just kicked their butts for it.

NH just demonstrated how much they love wars of agression. Both McCain and Clinton are hawks and will give us 4 or 8 more years or wars.

NH did a heckuva job!

Supposedly, before today's NH primaries Obama was up 12 points in South Carolina. Asumming those polls were not bunk (which they might be considering how badly the media botched NH) it will be interesting to see how the polls tighten up.

Chris Matthews is now trying to say that there was a hidden "ethnic" factor in the vote.

What an asshole.

An exciting night. We have ourselves a contest!

We can now look for Hillary to openly weep--on cue--at every available opportunity. How else to explain an 11-point reversal in the polls, in one day?

What is it with the Dems in the primaries, that they're attracted to the most pussified candidates?

Chris Matthews is now trying to say that there was a hidden "ethnic" factor in the vote.

What an asshole.



Posted by Corky


Here is the bottom line:

In NH independents can vote in either primary. I haven't seen the mubers, but I guess that Obama didn't get as many independents as he needed to win and McCain was probably helped by independents voting for him. It's not rocket science, but it's not a precise science either, predicting which way independents will go.

Just some good-natured ribbing, Corky! Great win for Hillary! And now the fun begins! I'll be the first to admit that I had some of the wind taken out of my sails tonight! Politics is funny that way...one day you're up and one day you're down.

I desparately want a change from the political divisiveness of the last 15 years. But, even more desparately, I want the American people to take back control of this country from the ineptitude and corruption of the last seven.

I would grant to you that my fellow Obamites are a little quiet tonight! Disappointing.

By the way, did the Republicans have their primary tonight? ;)

Obama '08

I know some people may find this hard to believe, but I'm not really all that upset at the prospect of Hillary being president. I actually don't think she would be all that liberal in her policies. As the first woman, I think she would want to break a lot of stereotypes... the first being that men are stronger... I think we would see her be very tough in areas like the war... now of course her judicial nominees would be as liberal as the day is long, but so would Obama's and Edwards'. I can at least see a silver lining to her presidency.

As for the GOP I have no idea anymore... although McCain to me, is like the indianapolis colts. With all the talk of Romney, Huckabee and Guiliani I had forgotten he was even in the race...

I haven't seen the mubers, but I guess that Obama didn't get as many independents as he needed to win and McCain was probably helped by independents voting for him.

That's what they were saying on Fox earlier.

Its the same reason McCain won NH in 2000. It will be interesting to see if he actually carries any momentum this time.

Member,

From what I've heard, Hillary had tremendous success with traditional Democrats and women. The percentage of young voters in NH was way down from Iowa and I think Hillary held her own with that group.

I think Obama's campaign got caught napping and it proved to be a costly mistake. Ralph Reed described Obama's campaign as having gone to a "four corner's" strategy. I think that is pretty accurate.

"Its the same reason McCain won NH in 2000. It will be interesting to see if he actually carries any momentum this time."

He also won Michigan in 2000. The Michigan primaries are next Tuesday. For Dems, they are irrelevant since many of them are not in the ballot. But all Repubs are on the ballot. McCain could get enought momentum to beat Romney, who's father was the governor of Michigan in the 60s.

Stay tuned folks, don't change the channel.

Its the same reason McCain won NH in 2000. It will be interesting to see if he actually carries any momentum this time.

The guy voted against the bush tax cuts and co-sponsored the amnesty for illegal aliens bill with Ted Kennedy. So he's not in as good shape as the media thinks.

The GOP race is wide open.

This is shaping up to be quite a horse race for both nominations. Hopefully the large turn-outs will continue throughout the primaries.

The GOP race is wide open.

Posted by Bowa


Wide open? I was going to try to make a Larry Craig joke with this, but it's late, my brain is not at 100%.

Anyways. it's wide open because none of the candidates are satisfying to the electorate.

Well I'm disapointed tonight. I really thought Obama was going to pull it out.
It was basically a tie, but Hillary will have the momentum now, and she'll get the fundraising boost.

I really wish the Edwards supporters would come over to Obama, but they're diehards. I don't see how they're helping their cause though. Did you hear what Hillary said, about leaving Iraq "the right way"?
That's code for our troops staying and dying to protect the oil pipelines. Change my ass. Edwards supporters need to decide between Hillary and Obama, and do it quick.

I wish I could trust Hillary, but I just don't. She's had too many years of sitting by Bill and lying to the camera. She knows how to act, so I don't know when she's telling the truth and when she's not.

Hillary will be better than Bush, but she's not what this country needs right now. I just really don't want her as my President. I watched her speech, it was like the cliff notes version of Obama's speech, and it didn't inspire.

I still want Obama for President.

I think Obama's campaign got caught napping and it proved to be a costly mistake

Caught napping? come on, There was only 5 days between Iowa and NH. What exactly was he supposed to do?

was like the cliff notes version of Obama's speech, and it didn't inspire.

And Obama's was an uninspiring Cliff Notes version of a Martin Luther King speech, except where ever he saw the word "dream" in MLK's speech he replaced it with "change."

Well I'm disapointed tonight. I really thought Obama was going to pull it out. It was basically a tie, but Hillary will have the momentum now, and she'll get the fundraising boost.

I agree that Hillary will get the fundraising boost -- but I think she slowed down Obama's momentum, more then built up her own.

It's seems like a real horserace now.

I anticipate a somewhat more aggressive Obama after tonight. We'll see what kind of fight he has in him. I think he genuinely is a concensus maker but, you can't survive in politics without having some fight in you. I think he was somewhat deferential to this point out of respect for Bill Clinton. But, after the way Bill tore into him over the last two days, I think the gloves come off! If he doesn't have the stomach for the fight then it's better we find that out now. Because if he can beat the Clinton machine he can beat anything the Repubs throw out there in the general election.

Interesting that Obama had about 15,000 more votes than the Republican primary winner. Bodes well for the Dems come November!

I anticipate a somewhat more aggressive Obama after tonight.

He's gonna... change?

What exactly was he supposed to do?

Historically, NH voters have been contrarian and fiercely independent. I think he assumed he would be able to maintain the women's vote. I think he assumed that the young people would be as motivated in NH as they were in Iowa. He is going to have to broaden his base because the young voters of this country will break your heart every time. And, to be honest, he's got to be wondering whether any black people live in this country anymore!

I don't think Obama will go negative.

If you've ever been in NH, large populated parts of it are practictally suburbs of Boston. People around there don't like Mitt Romney. They've see how he changed every position when he won in Mass. to run for president.

Many of the independents voted in the Rep. primary to stop him.

Also, NH is very friendly Clinton country.

I wouldn't read a lot into Clinton's win tonight. This race just heated up. Obama is not even on the ballot in Michigan. SC should be motivated to vote for Obama now.

Last note: Compare the number of voters in the Dem primary compared to Reps in a state with more Reps than Dems (and Iowa). It doesn't bode well for a November win for the GOP.

I congratulate Clinton on her narrow victory. The fat lady is still taking a nap resting up her voice. This is gonna be one interesting campaign.

it's really sad that bill clinton was racing around NH yesterday lying about barack and trying to kill the message of hope that Barack brought to the campaign. it's one of the most heart breaking things I've ever seen... a man that I had some respect for, I even like him.. but now he's just a depressing political hack, I'm not even sure if the traditional gesture of calling him President should be used anymore.

Which lie was that, Ms. Rugburn?

Bill Clinton and George W. Bush both lost New Hampshire - and by a much wider margin.

We have a race folks.

Edwards will start to lose support and his percentages will drop. The 2nd place finish in Iowa kept him above 15% He doesn't have very much money. His voters go for Obama 3-1.

Which lie was that, Ms. Rugburn?

Posted by Corky

That Obama supported the Iraq War. You didn't hear about that?

Well said, AH!

I have a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for Bill Clinton. I guess if the candidate wasn't his wife I'd be more disappointed at his attacks on Barack. I'll give him a little bit of a pass because the candidate he supports is his wife.

We all know he is a politician to the core and sometimes politics just isn't pretty. But, the conflicted feelings are still there for me as an Obama supporter.

The way I look at it...if Hillary wins the nomination we still have a candidate that is head and shoulders above any of the Republicans. And if Obama wins the nomination, he will have become a much stronger candidate for having beat back the Clinton machine!

I wouldn't read a lot into Clinton's win tonight. This race just heated up.

AU, I agree with you. But I am a bit surprised that you would say this given the almost Messianic fervor in the way you've been talking about Obama the past few days.


Bill Clinton has an uncanny ability to sway the emotions of the democratic base seemingly at will to his side.

And just like he turned people against Chris Wallace for even questioning him about failing to get Osama while President, I think when Bill said of Obama's campaign ""Give me a break! This whole thing is the biggest fairy tale I've ever seen." that had to burst the "Obamania" bubble a bit, and bring lots of the base back to Hillary at the last minute.

REAL

If Hillary's the nominee I will vote for her. Done.

We don't need to start talking about this race as being over. Perhaps many in New Hampshire, who are typically very independent, said, 'Iowa isn't telling US how to vote'.

I don't hate the Clinton's. I'd just see Obama as the best person at this point in our history - to heal old wounds, inspire a new generation, and show a face to the world much in the mold of JFK when he went to Berlin.

Fat lady's napping. Hours and hours til showtime.....

AU

As Hil said the other night, Obama gave a very good speech against the war in 2002. But when asked later for the record if he would have voted against the resolution (that demanded inspections, btw) he very honestly said that he didn't have the intelligence reports and he said, "I do not know.", when asked how he would have voted.

It was only after he started running for President that he claimed that he would definitely not have voted for that resolution.

Then he proceeded to mercilessly bash a good Dem on that same vote.

We all get to have our own opinions, but we don't all get to have our own facts.

Of course, the reason this isn't well known is that the media has given him a pass on that, among many other things.

AU,

I agree...this race is far from over. I think Obama received a wake-up call this week. He'll be a better candidate for it in the end.

BOWA

You of all people shouldn't throw around words like, "messianic".

I just have a candidate that excites me about voting for the first time in decades. That's a good thing.

I'm old enough to remember JFK and RFK and the things we were so close to achieving in this nation. Instead, with a few bullets that killed them and MLK, we started fighing over Vietnam, Nixon destroyed our faith in our government, and we've been floundering for a few decades - going nowhere with our political divisiveness only growing wider.

Any one of the Dem candidates will whip the tarfeathers out of the GOP candidate. We don't have THAT short of memories.

Take a look at the numbers of Dem primary voters in Iowa and NH compared to Rep primary voters. Those are the real numbers to look at.

I don't want more of the same. But, if it comes to choosing between more of Bush's same and Clinton's same, America will elect the Dem by a landslide. Independents prefer Dems by wide margins. Look at the numbers so far.....

CORKY

Very few shouted as loudly (and in the middle of a Senatorial campaign when people were being called 'traitors' for doing so no less) as Obama.

"I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances. The Civil War was one of the bloodiest in history, and yet it was only through the crucible of the sword, the sacrifice of multitudes, that we could begin to perfect this union and drive the scourge of slavery from our soil.

I Don't Oppose All Wars

I don't oppose all wars. My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton's army. He fought in the name of a larger freedom, part of that arsenal of democracy that triumphed over evil.

I don't oppose all wars. After September 11, after witnessing the carnage and destruction, the dust and the tears, I supported this administration's pledge to hunt down and root out those who would slaughter innocents in the name of intolerance, and I would willingly take up arms myself to prevent such tragedy from happening again.

Opposed to Dumb, Rash Wars

I don't oppose all wars. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income, to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.

That's what I'm opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.

On Saddam Hussein

Now let me be clear: I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power.... The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors...and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.

I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a U.S. occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences.

I don't hate the Clinton's. I'd just see Obama as the best person at this point in our history

AU, One of the pundits tonight -- I forget which - called Obama a political Rorschach test in which it seems anyone can see in him whatever they want to see.

Hillary doesn't have that advantage. She's been on the national scene for 16 years -- he's been on it for 3. People have definite opinions about her, they are still just getting to know Obama.

So it stands to reason that she's going to do everything she can to criticize him, and make sure that as many people see him the way that would bring her the most votes. That's politics.

continued:

I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.

I am not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars. So for those of us who seek a more just and secure world for our children, let us send a clear message to the president.

You Want a Fight, President Bush?

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's finish the fight with Bin Laden and al-Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to make sure that...we vigorously enforce a nonproliferation treaty, and that former enemies and current allies like Russia safeguard and ultimately eliminate their stores of nuclear material, and that nations like Pakistan and India never use the terrible weapons already in their possession, and that the arms merchants in our own country stop feeding the countless wars that rage across the globe.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to make sure our so-called allies in the Middle East, the Saudis and the Egyptians, stop oppressing their own people, and suppressing dissent, and tolerating corruption and inequality, and mismanaging their economies so that their youth grow up without education, without prospects, without hope, the ready recruits of terrorist cells.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to wean ourselves off Middle East oil through an energy policy that doesn't simply serve the interests of Exxon and Mobil.

Those are the battles that we need to fight. Those are the battles that we willingly join. The battles against ignorance and intolerance. Corruption and greed. Poverty and despair."

Obama was right about everything.

They're stealing the election already and you people are talking about what a great turn out they had.
No wonder the government can pull the wool over the sheeples eyes so easy. They like being sheeple.

Voter Fraud Against Paul Confirmed in Sutton, N.H.

By admin | January 8, 2008

Kurt Nimmo
Truth News
January 8, 2008

According to a post this evening on the Ron Paul Forums, vote fraud occurred in Sutton, New Hampshire:

Sutton with 100% reporting reported 0 votes for paul but poster in Sutton posted:
My mom, aunt, and dad all voted for RP today in my hometown, My mom and aunt both work passing out ballots, and checking them off. I just looked at the politico map and it says their town has ZERO votes for Ron. Now i know that there isn't corruption on voting in that little town, so where they reported it must be. What do I do, anyone know???

Originally Posted by sstjean View Post
This was posted to ronpaul-801 tonight: "This town numbers are wrong wrong wrong on this map. I am from Sutton originally and my parents and one aunt all voted for Ron Paul today and Sutton says 0. So this is wrong. This is a town that had 20 people counting the ballots and I have no reason to believe that they cheated. Small town and I was born and raised there. The real numbers will come in by morning. The electronic machines in the big towns are the ones we have to worry about."

Earlier in the day, Brad Blog reported other suspicious behavior:

Our Spidey-sense started tingling before going to bed last night and hearing reports, on MSNBC, that there were 17 paper ballots cast in Dixville Notch, NH's midnight, first-in-the-country voting. The report said that there were only 16 registered voters in the tiny voting precinct, yet 17 votes had been cast -- suggesting that somehow, paper ballot "voter fraud" skullduggery was afoot.

Brad, however, believes the story is easily debunked:

Given that one of those reports seems to have begun on The DRUDGE REPORT earlier today, we're not particularly surprised that the MSM kept repeating the easily-debunked stories running all day.

That, even while there are reasons to be concerned about how the paper ballots used in the New Hampshire Primary will actually be counted by the hackable Diebold optical-scan systems used in the state, as controlled and programmed by an outrageously bad private contractor there.

Of course, there is plenty of room for hank-panky, as Michael Collins notes:

81% of New Hampshire ballots are counted in secret by a private corporation named Diebold Election Systems (now known as "Premier"). The elections run on these machines are programmed by one company, LHS Associates, based in Methuen, MA. We know nothing about the people programming these machines, and we know even less about LHS Associates. We know even less about the secret vote counting software used to tabulate 81% of our ballots. People like to say "but we use paper ballots! They can always be counted by hand!"

But they're not. They're counted by Diebold. Only a candidate can request a hand recount, and most never do so. And a rigged election can easily become a rigged recount, as we learned in Ohio 2004, where two election officials were convicted of rigging their recount ... .

In short, the stage was set by Diebold and Republican operatives to rig yet another election, as the above first-hand account seems to indicate.

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I'm glad this happening, so blatantly. Maybe people will start waking up before the elections in November.

Gotta run out the door to work.
I'm sure I will be posting more on voter fraud later.

I just have a candidate that excites me about voting for the first time in decades. That's a good thing.

That is a good thing.

Read Obama's speech and point out anywhere he was wrong.

BOWA

Ya, politics is politics. I just have a sneaking suspicion we're a little more engaged than they suppose we will be.

78% of us think we're going in the wrong direction. Now that others have, to put it politely, "been versatile with their rhetoric" change could be diluted like a good riff in a song too many try to imitate.

That doesn't change the fact that voters like myself (and I'd suspect you) want something different than the mess we're in now. BIG change.

Just for curiosity's sake, I looked up the number of votes cast in the last NH primary that was contested in both parties.

In 2000:

Dems - 154,639
Reps - 236,802

In 2008 (95% counted)

Dems - 276,685
Reps - 226,420

The winds of change are blowing! YES WE CAN!

ROB

Who do you feel is really fighting for the asshole vote this election? Bush in 2000 and 2004.

Looking for your opinion as an asshole......

Who do you feel is really fighting for the asshole vote this election? Bush in 2000 and 2004.

Hands down that would be Fred Thompson!

Well, I have nothing to add that hasn't already said, but a few weeks ago, I begged the American people to prove me wrong about their complacence in rejecting their own power.

It looks like I may be proven wrong. And, that is a great thing!

That doesn't change the fact that voters like myself (and I'd suspect you) want something different than the mess we're in now. BIG change.

AU, I disagree with much of the premise of Obama's speech, his view of middle-east dynamics simplistic, naive. And much of what he attacks Bush for not doing, is either already being done or is just unrealistic to do.

But then again I don't believe that he would make the best President. Nor do I agree that we are in the "mess" you believe we are in.

As I said last week, I see Obama as more of a "jimmy carter" then JFK -- someone whose chrisma, pleasant platitudes and likable personality might be able to "heal" the animosity between the parties created by the Clinton and bush years -- but that doesn't mean he would be a good President, or good for this country in more then that limited way.

But if he wins the nomination, it will likely be enough to get him elected since the GOP is hopelessly divided no matter who the republican candidate is.

off to bed now. speak to you tommorrow.

BOWA

As 'Mr. 911" I'll take your comments under consideration in that light.

I noticed that every though I wasn't on the ballot, I got the same percentage as Biden, Dodd, and Gravel.

It's also great to hear Hillary say in her speech that she has finally "found her voice." Whatever the hell that means.

I presume it's good, though. And just as Hillary was finding her voice, Obama insists he isn't "losing hope". Thank God. Ah, the touchy-feely world of Democratic presidential politics. Hillary will see Obama's use of Oprah Winfrey in Iowa, and raise him a tear-jerking spectacle in New Hampshire. And the race is on!

Barack Obama's 2002 speech against invading Iraq. Some sage wisdom. Where was McCain? Where was Bill Clinton? Where were all the questions about getting into the largest blunder in U.S. History in the midst of the rise of Islamic radicalism and Bin Laden on the loose?:

"I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances. The Civil War was one of the bloodiest in history, and yet it was only through the crucible of the sword, the sacrifice of multitudes, that we could begin to perfect this union and drive the scourge of slavery from our soil.

I don't oppose all wars. My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton's army.

I don't oppose all wars. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income, to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.

That's what I'm opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.

Now let me be clear: I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power.... The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors...and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.

I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a U.S. occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences.

I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.

I am not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars. So for those of us who seek a more just and secure world for our children, let us send a clear message to the president.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's finish the fight with Bin Laden and al-Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to make sure that...we vigorously enforce a nonproliferation treaty, and that former enemies and current allies like Russia safeguard and ultimately eliminate their stores of nuclear material, and that nations like Pakistan and India never use the terrible weapons already in their possession, and that the arms merchants in our own country stop feeding the countless wars that rage across the globe.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to make sure our so-called allies in the Middle East, the Saudis and the Egyptians, stop oppressing their own people, and suppressing dissent, and tolerating corruption and inequality, and mismanaging their economies so that their youth grow up without education, without prospects, without hope, the ready recruits of terrorist cells.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to wean ourselves off Middle East oil through an energy policy that doesn't simply serve the interests of Exxon and Mobil.

Those are the battles that we need to fight. Those are the battles that we willingly join. The battles against ignorance and intolerance. Corruption and greed. Poverty and despair."

McCain won in 2000 as well. Remember who the nominee was?

It ain't over til the fat lady sings. She's still napping.

Mondale won iowa and lost New Hampshire. Bill Clinton won neither

This is a wide open race. Obama's support in SC is strong and growing. SC put Bill Clinton in the race, and was Bush's first win too.

SC is not so independent heavy. Huckabee is leading nationally as of now.

Gonna be an interesting month. That much is sure in this unsure world LOL

We have a race folks.

Edwards will start to lose support and his percentages will drop. The 2nd place finish in Iowa kept him above 15% He doesn't have very much money. His voters go for Obama 3-1.

Posted by AMERICANUNITY


Sounds about right to me

REALPATRIOT says:
"Because if he can beat the Clinton machine he can beat anything the Repubs throw out there in the general election."

Finally, someone is thinking logically about Barack. I also hope that all this nonsense that he will be able to "heal" the partisan divide in this country starts being recognized as the nonsense that it is. The divide comes from the Republican side, it always has. Bill Clinton managed to accomplish some of his goals in spite of a Republican Congress and an impeachment by working with the Republicans. The Dems didn's spend 70 million investigating Dumbya, they didn't have the K-street project, they didn't refuse to allow Republicans to use Congressional hearing rooms, etc. They didn't conspire with Diebold. I could go on and on. Point being Barack says he will "heal" this nation but it is impossible to heal it when the Republicans will still be fighting with every dirty trick imaginable. They are waiting and hoping for a naive young man like him to get the nomination so that then they can tear him to shreads. Next to the Obama campaign the Republicans are the most disappointed folks this morning. Some of the right wing pundits are probably crying in their cereal as we speak, their number one goal for the past fifteen years is to destroy the Clintons and, thus far, they have failed miserably.

Oh, also it was pure pleasure last night watching all the pundits with egg on their faces. The pollsters were completely wrong. It was hilarious.
Pat Buchanan had it right when he just said that they all, the news media, the pollsters, etc. all got it completely wrong. I hope these jerks will stop trying to influence the election from now on. Their attempt to push Obama as the "phenomenon" as many of them called him, was bad journalism and biased reporting.

In the immortal words of Austin Powers,

YEAH, BABY!

"It's also great to hear Hillary say in her speech that she has finally "found her voice." Whatever the hell that means."

It means that the two plants with the big sign reading "iron my shirt" did their job to make the Hildebeast the victim. It put all of her enemies on the defense...now they have to start out any disagreement with her with the phrase "I am not a sexist, but..." or you have to be silent.

Barak needs some 'red necks' with a racist sign.

" They didn't conspire with Diebold."

Riiight - yeah, if the polls go the slightest bit against the results in the general election (to the Republicans benefit) you will be the first one to scream that the election was stolen! Funny how the rose colored glasses keep you from seeing the possibility that Hildebeast campaign "helped" the results a bit. "She just had a feeling that she was going to win..." despite a 13 point deficit the day before! Bull Shit!

"But when asked later for the record if he would have voted against the resolution (that demanded inspections, btw) he very honestly said that he didn't have the intelligence reports and he said, 'I do not know.', when asked how he would have voted."

Corky, just as a point of order for both you and the former President- Obama made that comment after his speech at the National Convention in '04. He has stated that he tempered his remarks at that time because both the nominee and his running mate had voted for the resolution and he didn't want to say anything to embarrass them at the convention.

Criticize him for that if you wish, but it is a flat out lie to say that it is indicative of him changing his position.

As Hil said the other night, Obama gave a very good speech against the war in 2002. But when asked later for the record if he would have voted against the resolution (that demanded inspections, btw) he very honestly said that he didn't have the intelligence reports and he said, "I do not know.", when asked how he would have voted. It was only after he started running for President that he claimed that he would definitely not have voted for that resolution.

Obama was being circumspect. If you are going to knock him for being uncertain in one discussion of the war, how do you feel about Clinton's vote on the war and lack of a statement declaring she was wrong to give Bush the authority?

""It's also great to hear Hillary say in her speech that she has finally "found her voice." Whatever the hell that means."

I think anyone who is honest and also has half a brain knows exactly what she meant. Obviously, to all except those who choose not to understand, she has discovered that she needs to allow her own natural personality to show through her tough side.

There were two seperate dynamics working in Hillary's favor yesterday and to my knowledge, only Keith Olbermann even bothered to ask the pertainent question.

Did anyone see Hillary's comments AFTER she choked up on Monday? While she certainly did have a human moment, her very next comment was a direct slam on Obama, and another recitation on "her", ie. what "I want to do" for the country and the presidency. As Keith asked, "Why wasn't the ENTIRE clip shown, and doesn't the fact she so seemlessly flowed right back into her campaign personna of personal criticisms negate whatever "reality" her "emotional response" drew from the public?

"Obama was being circumspect. If you are going to knock him for being uncertain in one discussion of the war"

Again, see my previous post. He was being neither uncertain nor inconsistent. As he has since stated, he was being discreet and respectful because both Kerry and Edwards - the nominees - had voted for the resolution and he made a conscious decision to try not to embarrass them at their own convention.

Here's the problem for Bill Clinton, as I see it. He is a former President of the United States and a, if not the head of the party. He has a delicate balancing act between supporting his wife, and alienating a large segment of the party.

Supporting and championing Hillary's experience and record is fine. But he shouldn't become an attack dog against her opponents. And lately he has been coming of as hostile and angry that anyone would dare not vote for Hillary, or would challenge her candidacy.

Incidents like misrepresenting Obama's '04 convention statement about the Iraq resolution are not worthy of a former President.

""As Keith asked, "Why wasn't the ENTIRE clip shown"

Er...he is one of the primary pundits on MSNBC and he's asking why it wasn't shown??? Er..he has his own show.
She reverted by to campaigning....it is a political campaign....oh, but Hillary isn't supposed to say what "she" is intending to do as president??? Tony, thanks for regurgitating the MSNBC pundit line that I heard repeated over and over by various MSNBC folks yesterday. I swear I heard several of their pundits use the exact same criticisms about the use of the Me, I, pronoun yesterday, each one pretending it was his own original idea.
Hillary won yesterday because NH voters decided her experience is more important than Barack's oratory. He is a great speaker and will probably be a good president but not now, he needs some seasoning. The Republicans would eat him alive.

"Again, see my previous post. He was being neither uncertain nor inconsistent. As he has since stated, he was being discreet and respectful because both Kerry and Edwards - the nominees - had voted for the resolution and he made a conscious decision to try not to embarrass them at their own convention."

That is a lovely excuse but it doesn't substitute for actually being in the Senate at the time and having to deal with the possibility that what the president was telling them was true. It is easy to criticize in hindsight which is 20/20 but gee...what if Saddam had a nuclear program as the administration claimed???? I really do think that the discussion should be more about today and less about then. Basing your candidacy on one speech given in a state legislature really isn't enough to justify election to the presidency.

"It is easy to criticize in hindsight which is 20/20"

But of course that's not what he has done. He criticized it from the outset, and remained consistent in his position.

And be all of that as it may, how does that justify critics, which include the former President, acting as an attack dog, misrepresenting his position with half truths, Danni?

Attack dog??? come on, I watched the clip of the exchange with Bill Clinton. That is a complete misrepresentation to label Bill an "attack dog."
I think there is some anti-Clinton Kool Aide that even Democrats have been drinking. It seems that with some of y'all, your enthusiasm for Obama goes overboard all the way to Clinton bashing which, BTW, is exactly what many of the right wing pundits are hoping y'all will do. You play right into their hands. Rush loves it every time someone calls Bill an "attack dog."
Republican strategy 2008....divide and conquer.

"I watched the clip of the exchange with Bill Clinton."

Its not a single "clip" Danni. Its a pattern of remarks and speeches over the past couple of weeks.

And I haven't bashed Clinton or her candidacy. I'm simply saying I don't particularly like some of the stuff coming from Bill lately. It seems inappropriate for someone in his unique position. That's my opinion that I feel is supported by facts, and does not involve "Kool Aide", thank you very much.

Danni...

Maybe you don't realize it, but unless you think the white vote is going to carry Hillary to the White House, she cannot win after she and Bill continue using the same code language appealing to latent racial fears that Southern Republicans have used for years. The black community is becoming inflamed that the Clintons, who owe so much of their success to a coalition in which blacks played such a crucial role, would so openly and nakedly use race to disparage Obama.

No one is ignoring the revisionist history of claiming LBJ's role to be as important as MLK's in bringing about the changes the civil rights movement is responsible for, nor is it being ignored that even a Clinton campaign supporter in New Hampshire still believes that Barack is a Muslim and was happy to tell a reporter that is why he's unacceptable to her.

This nation has come too far to let this election devolve into a campaign based on Smears and Fears, particularly when its the Democratic Party we're talking about. My fervent hope is that from this point forward the country can hear positives from both Hillary and Barack instead of the sniping and derogatory comments which have become a staple of the Clinton strategy.

But the one thing no one has yet talked about is where are Edward's 17% going to go, and will he recommend that his supporters move to Obama or will he just let them make their own decisions?

""Maybe you don't realize it, but unless you think the white vote is going to carry Hillary to the White House, she cannot win after she and Bill continue using the same code language appealing to latent racial fears that Southern Republicans have used for years."

Give me a fucking break. My ass she is using "code language" appealing to latent racial fears. How about putting some kind of link or something to justify such a statement???

"This nation has come too far to let this election devolve into a campaign based on Smears and Fears,"

Er...yeah so how about stopping the "smears and fears."

I think much of the animosity towards Hillary has been manufactured by progressive talk radio because Hillary hasn't been willing to come on their shows. I listen all the time and many of the shows are just out of control in their support for Obama and against Hillary and it is just because Hillary didn't come on their shows. I am starting to realize that Democrats are just as easily manipulated as Republicans.

The righties will criticize EVERYTHING that Clinton does, and it's laughable to listen to them. If she cries, she's weak, if she doesn't, she's cold.

No need to waste time with them, really, they'll never change, becasue their opposition to Hillary is personal, even irrational, and not based on her positions on the issues.

"No need to waste time with them, really, they'll never change, becasue their opposition to Hillary is personal, even irrational, and not based on her positions on the issues."

But...the problem is that even many Democrats have listened to the righties for so long they have echo the same ideas. They even buy into the "Hildebeast" concept of Hillary. You are right, it is irrational. It isn't based on any facts, nothing she has ever done but simply on an impression created for her by right wing pundits over many years. New Hampshire voters, being somewhat more educated and intelligent than folks in other partsof the country rejected those notions and voted for who they thought would best carry out the will of the Democratic Party.
Make no mistake....experience matters....not necessarily experience in office but experience dealing with the "vast right wing conspiracy."
Pretend it doesn't exist at your nation's peril.

So Tony, Donna Brazile is as big of a fan of Obama as you are but none of those comments were in any way racist and it is absolutely ridiculous and extremely unfair to pretend that they are. Obviously Donna Brazile is an Obama supporter and is just as partisan for him today as any other supporter, her previous support for the Clintons is irrelevant, it doesn't give her any more or less credibility than any other Obama supporter.
I really do think that to make comments claiming the Clintons made racially insulting comments after everything they have done, after their long history of support for the black community shows incredible short sightedness not to mention ingratitude. I wouldn't blame Mrs. Clinton if she did remove herself from this race and just wash her hands of the disaster that is coming for the Democratic party with an untried, unseasoned, naive candidate in way over his head. Now if you want to pretend that is a racial insult then I feel sorry for you.

All right Mrs. Clinton! Now, off to cancel my private health insurance!

""But it says something about the tone of the Clinton campaign""

Only in the mind of someone who has already made up their mind that it does. It is the ridiculous comment of an old lady which has not bearing whatever on the Clinton campaign. I am sure I could find some Obama supporters making stupid comments too. You guys are desperate, come on, it's just one primary.
I think the real question all Democrats ought to be asking themselves is "what if...."
What if Hillary won???
What if Obama won???

Are we all Democrats, willing to support whoever the nominee is??? If not, the REpublicans will be celebrating in NOv.

Danni...

You're really grasping at straws. Brazille was the Party chairperson and has been a Clinton allie since back in the 80s!

You don't get it, do you? Please, please, click on my name and look at how may posts I made about what has been going on BEFORE today! This isn't new news, its the continuation of a coordinated plan the Clintons have been using even before the Iowa Caucus. That's the insidious nature of it; most non-racial people don't even notice it or write it off as just another criticism, but to call Barack a KID? Give me a break! The man is 47 years old and is a former President of the Harvard Law Review. Its insulting to even publically utter something so debasing about someone running for POTUS.

"but to call Barack a KID?"

ER Tony, is "Kid" a new racial epithet???
The Clintons are in their sixties, someone in their forties will often be referred to as a "kid."
It is hardly an insult, more on a description indicating LACK OF EXPERIENCE DEALING WITH THE BIG LEAGUES OF AMERICAN POLITICS and Obama is simply not ready. It has nothing to do with his race and for anyone to say it does is disgusting.
The Republicans are licking their chops waiting for Barack.
Do you even remember the Clinton years??? Do you remember the level of attack focused on them???
Do you remember the SWift Boat Liars???
After a Dem. gets the nomination you are going to see WWIII in American politics and Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton are just being realistic....Barack isn't ready, hasn't been tested, is a "kid" compared to them. They have been tested, they have been up against the worst that the Republicans could throw at them, 70 million dollar investigation!!! Now, they aren't supposed to bring that up in the discussion???
Ridiculous and counterproductive.

LIVE FREE OR TAKE IT IN THE ASS FROM THE ESTABLISHMENT


looks like NH decided to take it in the cornhole from the nee(wo)man.


I had a nice vacation in NH last year. I thought the people there were more aware, not so much...
sad, very sad...Iowans are more politically aware, interesting at least

the old people should quit voting, they have nothing to live for and dont care what burdens they saddle the youth with, its obvious. young voters got it right for the most part last night.

but on the bright side, I can quit worrying about political races early this year and get on with life while the sheeple are wooed by the same old same old path to American obsolescence.

""the old people should quit voting, they have nothing to live for and dont care what burdens they saddle the youth with, its obvious. young voters got it right for the most part last night.""

Congratulations, the most disgusting and stupid comment of the day.
Old folks probably care more than young people, we have kids and grandkids who matter more to us than our own egos.
What really happened....the Obama supporters didn't get their way and are throwing a temper tantrum this morning.
Youth is great but it doesn't replace experience.
Remember, all of us "old folks" have had youth, we were where y'all are now, we still remember the exuberance of supporting someone so completely....as per RFK for my generation....but reality is still important....and the simple fact is Obama just ain't ready. Give him a few years and he will be, put him in a presidential race now and you will regret it.

Danni...

You've bought into the Clinton's version of Obama hook, line and sinker. Again, I hope you actually research his past and find out that there's seldom been someone MORE worthy of being President than him based on his service to humanity, not his kow-towing to monied interests and corporations.

I want this debate to prove once and for all that Obama's "experience", though different from Hillary's is even more relevant for achieving exactly what he's saying. He's done this his entire adult life while Hillary's has been a series of questionable behaviors and personal soap operas that many are past tired of.

The most relevant exit polling was revealed by MSNBC last night. They asked both Clinton and Obama voters who they would have voted for if Bill was eligible for a third term. 73% of Obama's supporters stayed with him, while 58% of Hillary voters would switch to Bill. That tells you what even her backers think about her compared to Bill. Her support is largely due to Bill, not due to her "experience" no matter how many times she repeats it over and over.

Her experience is Bill TR.

Why don't you see that?

Being married to the most approved of President in the history of this country DOES COUNT FOR SOMETHING.

Yes, the fact that Bill would be back in the WH is very appealing to Clinton supporters.

What is your point?

you old folks are saddling us with trillions in debt and now want to continue with a corporate whore in McCain or govt everything in clinton

you stupid wrinkle bags havent learned anything in the last 20 years have you.

dont tellme how old people are looking out for the youth, what a fucking joke, your all owned by your churches and your nightly news from ABC, go play bridge and quit screwing up our future!

""you old folks are saddling us with trillions in debt and now want to continue with a corporate whore in McCain or govt everything in clinton""

Er....take a look at who supports John McCain.
It isn't just "old folks." Many of us "old folks" have been the most vehement opposition to the Iraq war. I have been wondering all along....where is the youth??? Where are the protesters like us "old folks" back in the Vietnam era????
When the young people get out and actually vote then you can start whining about us old folks.

""Again, I hope you actually research his past and find out that there's seldom been someone MORE worthy of being President than him based on his service to humanity, not his kow-towing to monied interests and corporations.""

Tony, when "worthiness" actuall gets someone elected let me know. I have nothing against Obama, I think he's great but I have not seen how he is going to react to the kind of attacks the Republicans will direct at him. It is terribly naive and disingenuous of you to pretend that this doesn't matter. You are attempting to set the Democratic Party up for defeat. Obama reminds me of McGovern...a wonderful man, I voted for him....but he wasn't ready for prime time.

"Yes, the fact that Bill would be back in the WH is very appealing to Clinton supporters."

Because it would drive a stake through the heart of the right wing conspiracy which has nearly destroyed this country. It would finally kill it. Rush Limbaugh would go into cardiac arrest.
Sean Hannity's head would explode.

Wake up Obama supporters, you are being manipulated by the media, they want the Republicans to face Obama (McGovern) not Clinton (Kennedy). That is the truth whether you are willing to deal with it or not.

NH exit poll via CNN

Repub votes by age

McCain
18-24 = 27%
65 + = 40%

Romney
18-24 = 17%
65 + = 44%

Huckabee
18-24 = 15%
65 + = 7%

Paul
18-24 = 19%
65 + = 3%



Dem vote by age

Clinton
18-24 = 22%
65 + = 48%

Obama
18-24 = 60%
65 + = 32%


Dont sit and tell me that old people aren't owned by the establishment, the figures speak for themselves. you sheep have been letting govt sell out this country for the last 35 years.

the hippie generation is a failure, your corporate, statist, fascist supporting soddy ol sacks!

Rush Limbaugh would go into cardiac arrest.
Sean Hannity's head would explode.

The saddest part of a Clinton win would be the job security it would give those talking ass clowns.

As far as CHANGE, if it isn't Ron Paul, it isn't change.

Nobody has explained to me what Obama would change besides the WH menu.

The hippie generation was consumed by cocaine and greed in the 70s and 80s. the govt made it avialable and you people just ate it up and forgot all about a movement for peace. John Lennon would spit venom at your brand of politics

Yeah Repugnant it's a generational war. OMG!!!
It doesn't get any dumber than that.

If it is then all you have to do is get the rest of your generation out to vote. Good luck. BTW, as a Dem I will support whoever gets the nomination....are you saying you won't support Hillary if she gets the nomination????

"Because it would drive a stake through the heart of the right wing conspiracy which has nearly destroyed this country."

You've made it perfectly clear you believe revenge is a good enough reason for someone to be elected President.

"Tony, when "worthiness" actuall gets someone elected let me know"

Pretty sad when we are so cynical that when a worthy candidate comes along that worthiness gets thrown back as a point of ridicule.

"Wake up Obama supporters, you are being manipulated by the media,"

Yes Danni, YOU are the ONLY one who can see the truth. No one else has any cognitive or deductive ability. Ignorant dupes, the lot of us.

""John Lennon would spit venom at your brand of politics"

I can honestly say you know nothing about John Lennon and to tell the truth....he was sort of flakey even back in the day. YOu can say my generation was consumed by cocaine in the 70s and 80s but what is your generation's excuse for the same behavior in the 90s and today??? I know plenty of young people doing the exact same drugs.....come to think of it...they don't even listen to their own music....they are listening to the music from my generation....get your own tunes!!!!

BTW I was a hippie but I have never ever snorted one single molecule of cocaine or any other addictive drug.

Can Barack say the same thing????
No.

Where are the protesters like us "old folks" back in the Vietnam era? - Danni

follwed by

Yeah Repugnant it's a generational war. OMG!!!
It doesn't get any dumber than that. - Danni

what which is it soddy sack? are you going senile already?



Tax everything into oblivion and keep printing up that govt green because we wouldnt want our savings to hold its value now would we old man.

The govt will take care of everything for you.

Yes well have fun letting the govt wipe your ass when you can not bend over anymore.

""Pretty sad when we are so cynical that when a worthy candidate comes along that worthiness gets thrown back as a point of ridicule.""

I wasn't ridiculing Obama or Tony. I'm just being realistic. I want the Dems to win. I think Obama is not ready. So sue me. If I am right think about the consequences. Seems to me you owe it to yourselves to at least consider the thoughts of someone who watched Nixon get elected and continue a war unnecessarily. Today isn't that different, this election isn't that different. We don't need to nominate a philosophically "pure" candidate who will lose. It's self-defeating.

REPUGNANT sorry, but your level of discussion is beneath my minimal standards.

I can honestly say you know nothing about John Lennon and to tell the truth...


I know lennon, lennon said

Ah, Im sick and tired of hearing things
From uptight, short-sighted, narrow-minded hypocrites
All I want is the truth now
Just gimme some truth now


Hes talking bout you Danni

"Can Barack say the same thing????
No.

Posted by danni"

Oh Danni... very disappointing. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

"I think Obama is not ready. So sue me."

That's fine Danni - you are entitled to your opinion and to support your candidate. But knock off the "Kool Aid drinkers" crap, and lay off telling those of us who disagree and support someone else we're stupid, naive, or being manipulated. MmmmmmKay?

because your blind old man BLIND

go drink your Starbucks, tune into MSNBC and watch the country tank, you get a front row seat Danni, the mainstream is you and you swallow the bait like Lewinsky. do nothing about anything and vote for whoever the MSM throuws at you, after all you'll be dead and we'll be left here to clean up the fractured country you've left us with.

""MmmmmmKay?""

Er....no. I will keep trying to warn you of the disaster awaiting you in the general election whether you like it or not. Too much at stake to just pretend all is well as the speeding Obama train roars towards the Republican Attack Machine.
At least I won't be accused of not trying my best to divert disaster.
Hey, if I am wrong....if Obama gets the nomination and wins....great....I'll celebrate but I'll be very surprised. I mean...come on...he got beat by Hillary Clinton last night. Can you imagine when he goes against McCain??? Or Romney??? They will be pulling stuff out that Hillary would never dream of saying, you now that as well as I but I think prefer to pretend that somehow it will be all ok...it won't.

"Er....no. I will keep trying to warn you of the disaster awaiting you"

Danni - this will be my 10th Presidential Election. I have worked campaigns since 1976. I manage to read and study the issues, the candidates, the pros, the cons, the ins and the outs pretty thoroughly.

I don't need you to warn me about anything. Support your candidate, have your opinions, but keep your cynicism, name-calling and attempts at degrading those who disagree to yourself.

-but keep your cynicism, name-calling and attempts at degrading those who disagree to yourself.

I sorta felt the same way San An, as others here called a good Dem a Neocon and a corporate whore, and those were the nice things, for most of the past year.

Clinton 39% and Obama 37%?? After yesterday's 10-point-plus spread for Mr. O?

It's Florida 2000 all over again!! ;o)

What did she think of Obama compared to Hillary? "He doesn't come anywhere near and I'll tell you why. He doesn't pledge allegiance to the American flag. Who does he pledge allegiance to?" I asked her what she meant by this. She replied: "Well, he's a Muslim."

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! Holy crap let this guy get the nomination! If Hillary's camp can convince Democrats of this, imagine what Republicans can do with a little Push Polling...

Swift Boating a canditate will be changed to Hajjing one...

YOu can say my generation was consumed by cocaine in the 70s and 80s but what is your generation's excuse for the same behavior in the 90s and today???



I LEARNED IT BY WATCHING YOU!!

(remember that commericial)

Dont blame us for the countries woes. Its your generation that entrenched the clans of Clinton and Bush in the White House since I was born. not our fault you gave up on the country and sold it out to the corporations. I didnt know we lived in an elitist aristocracy until a few years ago, you seems to be fine with that, IM NOT!

If you think their is a big difference between a Bush and a Clinton you might as well put a quarter in your ass, because you're playing yourself.

When did FoxNews become Clinton's Camp Rob?

"but keep your cynicism, name-calling and attempts at degrading those who disagree to yourself."

When Drudge is owned and operated by you then I guess I will have to obey your rules, til then I will continue to post what I want and laugh at the presumptuous folks who think they can dictate what I will or will not post. If you can't intelligently refute my posts that is your problem.

When did FoxNews become Clinton's Camp Rob?

Posted by Manypaths


Huh?

Seems like the negativity directed by Hillary Clinton towards her rival Barack Obama before today's New Hampshire primary has spread. After an event in Salem last night, I spoke to Freda Smith, 79, a campaign volunteer who had been up on the stage behind the former First Lady during the event.

What did she think of Obama compared to Hillary? "He doesn't come anywhere near and I'll tell you why. He doesn't pledge allegiance to the American flag. Who does he pledge allegiance to?" I asked her what she meant by this. She replied: "Well, he's a Muslim."

Whatchu talkin' bout manypaths... she's clearly in Hillary's camp...

Rob we dealt with that non-event up the thread. If you want to contribute at least try to pretend you have some actual intelligence and don't waste your time with ridiculous comments by some poor old lady who doesn't have a clue. I know you do have a brain, I have seen an intelligent post by you occasionally, quit hiding behind that mask of stupidity.

You would have to ask the senile old Freda where she learned this.

The fact that some crazy old lady thinks this does not equate to Clinton's Camp convincing Dems that Obama is a Muslim.

Nice try though.

What I was referring to was the blatant attempt by FoxNews to paint him as a Muslim.

Do you need links?

"I think there is some anti-Clinton Kool Aide that even Democrats have been drinking."

A senator who has been a staunch Bush supporter (with her votes, words are meaningless) and who's biggest assett is a famous last name may win the presidency by saying she represents "change". Somehow, people believe that voting for people with the same last names and who have gone along with the current president is a way to bring about "change".

And you think the people who aren't buying into this obvious load of BS are the delusional ones?

Oh danni... what is one of the largest voting groups in America... is it the AARP? I think it might be... Poor old ladies and dudes might just decide the election... and I doubt they're voting for the Black "Muslim"... just a guess.

Its not a non-event, its a sign of things to come. How was McCain undone in 2000? By sleazy phones calls pushing the idea he had an illigitimate black child... clearly the same strategy would work with Obama or these types of comments about his religion and ethnicity wouldn't even be brought up...

"Obama was being circumspect. If you are going to knock him for being uncertain in one discussion of the war, how do you feel about Clinton's vote on the war and lack of a statement declaring she was wrong to give Bush the authority?

Posted by rcade"

What I knocked him for was being cynically opportunistic in deciding AFTER he started to run for President that the Sen from NY, whose state was hit on 911, whose constituents were being told hourly by the President's men that Iraq and was involved with 911, and whose vote was not nearly the deciding one, was suddenly the devil incarnate, worthy of every right-wing slander ever thrown her way, for voting for a resolution that he himself admitted that he did not know how he would have voted on.


Just sayin'.

How was McCain undone in 2000?

Yes, Republicans run mainly on lies. Nothing new from them. If they ran on issues, the Republican party would be extinct.

But again, you are right, Republicans gain office mostly by lying and eating their own.

Some voters even approve of their lying tactic.

The fact that some crazy old lady thinks this does not equate to Clinton's Camp convincing Dems that Obama is a Muslim.

Correction, some crazy old clinton campaign volunteer and supporter...

"Obama was being circumspect. If you are going to knock him for being uncertain in one discussion of the war, how do you feel about Clinton's vote on the war and lack of a statement declaring she was wrong to give Bush the authority?

Posted by rcade"

What I knocked him for was being cynically opportunistic in deciding AFTER he started to run for President that the Sen from NY, whose state was hit on 911, whose constituents were being told hourly by the President's men that Iraq and was involved with 911, and whose vote was not nearly the deciding one, was suddenly the devil incarnate, worthy of every right-wing slander ever thrown her way, for voting for a resolution that he himself admitted that he did not know how he would have voted on.


Just sayin'.

How was McCain undone in 2000?

Yes, Republicans run mainly on lies. Nothing new from them. If they ran on issues, the Republican party would be extinct.

But again, you are right, Republicans gain office mostly by lying and eating their own.

Some voters even approve of their lying tactic.

by some poor old lady who doesn't have a clue


MY POINT EXACTLY - when the shoe fits, wear it soddy.

Many old people have no clue and just vote based on gossip and what the MSM provides.

Reality is of not a major consequence to this demographic.

Now if you could actually get the truth to them they would probably make a better decision, but that unfortunately is not the case.

Repug, it's clear you have passion and ideas. Are you channeling that into one of the campaigns? Are you planning to work to rouse your generation?

Yes and the dems run on let the govt run your life for you, just provide labor and fork over your cash and we'll take care of you, better than you can take care of yourself...

Also - what's a "soddy?"

"and I doubt they're voting for the Black "Muslim"

The Republican Attack Machine is just getting started.

"clearly the same strategy would work with Obama or these types of comments about his religion and ethnicity wouldn't even be brought up..."

But that doesn't prove in any way the the Clintons are indulging in that at all. Some old lady repeats what she heard on Fox News (fair and balanced haha) and you assume the Clintons are responsible...that is B.S.

Many old people have no clue and just vote based on gossip and what the MSM provides. Posted by Repugnant at 2008-01-09 12:10 PM

Wait, now get this post, 2 minutes later....


Yes and the dems run on let the govt run your life for you, just provide labor and fork over your cash and we'll take care of you, better than you can take care of yourself...

Posted by Repugnant at 2008-01-09 12:12 PM

And we only have to worry about OLD people???? I beg to differ man. You need to find a mirror dude!

Yes, Republicans run mainly on lies. Nothing new from them. If they ran on issues, the Republican party would be extinct.

The democrats have 2 real candidates this year, one is running on "My husband was president," the other, "I can say the word 'change' 807 per speech." Oh yeah... way to stick to the issues...

But that doesn't prove in any way the the Clintons are indulging in that at all.

Didn't an campaign employee have to quit a few weeks back for spreading the email rumor he was a muslim?

Switch the situation around. If there were multiple moments from people affiliated with Giuliani calling Obama a muslim, would you brush it off as nothing, or would you be decrying it as some new form of Rovian push polling?

Repug, it's clear you have passion and ideas. Are you channeling that into one of the campaigns? Are you planning to work to rouse your generation?

Posted by MrFair

No, im about to give up today, that why Im busting out my rage, now. NH was make or break, I thought those people were independent free thinkers, they proved me wrong

I gave money to ron paul, unfortunately the old people
are not listening (at least in New Hampshire). He did best among the youth who know they are being screwed.

My hope is now that at least the message of smaller govt and removing corporate control over our country will prevail in the long run. Dr. Paul may not win but his message will be heard, all we can hope for is the future, because people still arent getting it.

Im not repub or dem, Im independent and I think the last great President we had was JFK, he told the truth, and thats all Im asking for.

Is it really to much to ask the truth of your govt.?

Is it too much to ask that the people are given priority over banks and corporations that seize control through socialism?

But I've learned a lot of history studying Dr. Pauls message. Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James Garfield, Lincoln, some great men and philosophies that should never be forgotten.

My hope is now that at least the message of smaller govt and removing corporate control over our country will prevail in the long run. Dr. Paul may not win but his message will be heard, all we can hope for is the future, because people still arent getting it.

Im not repub or dem, Im independent and I think the last great President we had was JFK, he told the truth, Is it really too much to ask the truth of our govt.?

Is it too much to ask that the people are given priority over banks and corporations that sieze control through socialist statism?

BI've learned a lot of history studying Dr. Pauls message. Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James Garfield, Lincoln, some great men and philosophies that should never be forgotten.

And both are running on....we will have to fix the disaster brought to all of us by the Republicans. The question really is just who is best able to do it and even more critical who is most likely to win the election and get the opportunity to take on all the problems created by George W. Bush.
It is actually quite admirable in both Democratic candidates that they would be willing to actually risk their lives to try to repair the incredible damage left behind by the neocons.

And #3 would still beat the GOP candidate.

Would you rather they run like a Republican:

"God and country and he's a Hitler and -- hey, look, a fetus! Whatever you need, let's go! Vote for me!"

sorry for the double paste

"Im not repub or dem, Im independent and I think the last great President we had was JFK, he told the truth, Is it really too much to ask the truth of our govt.?"

Gee, I wonder if Ron Paul would agree???
No, I don't think so. JFK was behind the civil rights legislation of the '60s which Ron Paul disagrees with. Seems states rights were more important than human rights in his mind.

"And both are running on....we will have to fix the disaster brought to all of us by the Republicans."

So a Democrat who voted 100% with the Republicans on every single one of their more destructive policies shares no responsibility?

Holding the Republicans accountable for their actions while giving certain Democrats a free pass for theirs doesn't exactly make you someone who wants to fix things. It makes you someone who desperately wants a certain party to win regardless of their horrendous job performance over the last eight years.

"Switch the situation around. If there were multiple moments from people affiliated with Giuliani calling Obama a muslim, would you brush it off as nothing, or would you be decrying it as some new form of Rovian push polling?"

Like you said, the employee was forced to resign.
Wait til the election rolls around, the Swift Boaties are already warming up to call him (or her) anything and everything. Try as hard as you can Rob, but you will never be able to make a convincing argument that democrats have indulged in the nasty politics that the Republicans have. Sorry, but that is the plain and simple truth.

The biggest problem is the illusion that there is a major fundamental difference between the dems and thugs. Its mostly lip service.

Clinton still sold your jobs overseas, his policies will not protect middle america, only put the control of everything in the govts hands so that the corporations and banks that run the show will have an easier time consolidating power

Bush still spend your childrens money, Bush is Republican in name only, he is truly no more republican than clinton.

Their all owned, elitist whores who care nothing about the middle class.

The problem is that people who think things like pre-emptive war and govt healthcare are best do not recognize that these are all methods of consolidating power and funneling our efforts straight into the hands of those that care about us least.

the best thing Bush has done is become so arrogant about it that he has exposed the corruption and control to the average american willing to pay attention. Sadly many are willing to continue arguing over two sides of the same coin. its a neat trick they play on america. Some of us are wise enough to see through the charade.

Try as hard as you can Rob, but you will never be able to make a convincing argument that democrats have indulged in the nasty politics that the Republicans have.

The convincing argument is that you now have two campaign workers for Clinton spreading the lie that Obama is a Muslim...

Sure the first was forced to retire... maybe she was just taking one for the team. Told to spread the email, then she has to resign, but the message is out and the ball is rolling.

Do you honestly think in Clinton's corner that its just those 2 people spreading the false messages about Obama? I can smell that bullshit over the stench of New Jersey...

"So a Democrat who voted 100% with the Republicans on every single one of their more destructive policies shares no responsibility?"

OK she voted for the President's use of force in Iraq, but then so did John Edwards. She also voted that the Iranian REpublican Guard is a terrorist organization, which I disagreed with. Barack, conveniently didn't vote at all on that resolution so I don't think he can use that as an example of himself standing up to the Republicans. Other than that most of the bills have been funding resolutions which both voted for. The only candidate running who has a real record against the Iraq war and all funding for it is Kucinich who, I will readily admit, has a better voting record than either Hillary or Barack. However, we are now talking about who could win the election against Republicans and I just think Hillary is probably more able to win than is Barack. Nothing against Barack, I just think he will crumble when the Republicans go after him in the election. Ihope I'm wrong.

"but the message is out and the ball is rolling."

Er....Rob....Fox News was already spreading that stuff long before any Clinton campaign worker even thought of it. Most likely that is where the idea came from in the first place. To deny that is to deny an obvious fact....Faux News did put the mis-info out there.

JFK was behind the civil rights legislation of the '60s which Ron Paul disagrees with

such as? if your going to make an assertion at least back up your point,...fat chance right?

Ron Paul espouses civil liberties and personal freedom everytime he speaks, its not surprising you dont hear that because you dont seem to pay much attention to whats behind the curtain. You've already said you'll vote for whoever they tell you to vote for automaton

btw.... if this is a McCain-Clinton race, there is less likelyhood of Mac smearing Hil with a lot of Swiftboating, which will be refreshing for everyone.

I listen all the time and many of the shows are just out of control in their support for Obama and against Hillary and it is just because Hillary didn't come on their shows.

per Danni--

That is a criticism from folks who lean right as well Danni.

Hillary doesn't talk to anyone--and Obama just says we are going to ride the wave to change this country...

No one knows what these two candidates stand for or what they will do -Specifically--for the country. Wait until they get to Obama's liberal voting record in Illinois. He wants change alright--and Illinois will be held up as a great example.. Will that be considered an attack--or contrast?

And you can't be turning a blind eye to the Dems and their own "swift boating" techniques. I think we can all agree both parties do it--and are very good at it.

Murphy

OK she voted for the President's use of force in Iraq, but then so did John Edwards. She also voted that the Iranian REpublican Guard is a terrorist organization, which I disagreed with. Barack..


and they voted for the patriot act and the military commissions act, but hey they are their to change for you, right.

What a joke.

the only person who voted against these "republican" values was ron paul - but hey dont rely on fact or integrity and pick a winner, just like the last election.

btw.... if this is a McCain-Clinton race, there is less likelyhood of Mac smearing Hil with a lot of Swiftboating, which will be refreshing for everyone.

Posted by Corky


But could he stop some PAC like the swift vets who don't answer to the campaign, even if he wanted to?

I think there will be less against her then Obama, mainly because what is left to say about Hillary or accuse her of doing? For the most part she's been getting hammered since around '92...

Repug - thanks for taking the time. You're young - don't give up.

oh yeah Kucinich too, but hey, he got a hell of a consolation prize

"However, we are now talking about who could win the election against Republicans and I just think Hillary is probably more able to win than is Barack. Nothing against Barack, I just think he will crumble when the Republicans go after him in the election. Ihope I'm wrong"

But what is the point of winning an election against the Republicans if you have to run someone who mind as well be one of them in order to win?

Do you care what the winner is going to do once elected or not?

"Ron Paul espouses civil liberties and personal freedom everytime he speaks"

In the sixties black people couldn't vote in many southern states, couldn't attend universities, etc. and Ron Paul believed that the states should get to decide those issues for themselves under teh "states rights" exuse. It is easy today to say you support civil liberties, etc. but when it mattered he was for the states' rights to discriminate.

Danni-

I know you really want to believe there is an evil conspiracy afoot against your hero Mizz Clinton. But there is no conspiracy. People just genuinely don't like her. She's snide, snotty, calculating, and power hungry. She's the quintessential establishment candidate. She's in bed with every special interest group and she's obligated to feed them from the table.

I just wish the old guard idiot democrats would die off already so the new generations can get the democratic party to mean something again. Clinton, Gore, Kerry, Clinton? What a bunch of losers.

Keep attacking Obama. Keep saying he's not electable. The future of your party is at stake. Heaven forbid you actually nominate a viable candidate who can speak to the hearts of disenfranchised America. No. More of the same old BS is what you need.

If that divisive bitch wins, the gen election is going to be hilarious. Especially when McCain starts comparing leadership credentials. One led men into battle, suffered torture first-hand, wrote and sponsored an endless list of extremely progressive and thoughtful legislative bills (many being bi-partisan), stood up to special interests, and has a reputation as being steadfast and trustworthy. The other has 35 years of intense fund-raising and pandering experience, one term in the worst and most unpopular Senate in recent history, has not sponsored or written anything, has a voting record a Kansas republican would be proud of, demands zero respect in their personal life (evidenced by a constantly wandering spouse), is absolutely despised by 50% of the electorate, and is absolutely notorious for finger-to-the-wind partisan politics.

LOL. Clinton's minions are hilarious to me. They've learned nothing from the last 7 years.

BTW, Danni, since you are as assumptive as people get, I'm not a McCain supporter. It's just that you can compare a turd to just about anything to prove it is a turd.

"Danni...

Where the hell have you been over the last month?"

Tony, can't argue with you on those episodes, very distasteful. However, if you think that is the worst that the Republicans will throw at Obama then you are kidding yourself.
I'm not here to try to tell you Obama isn't a good person deserving of the opportunity to lead America...I'm just here to say that I don't think he is ready for what is going to come his way when and if he gets the nomination. I sincerely hope I am wrong.
Oh, and those who think if McCain gets the nomination are kidding themselves, 527 groups will do what they want regardless of the ethics of the candidate.

"But there is no conspiracy."

YOu are quite simply, full of crap. It began when the Clintons tried to get national health care though and hasn't let up since. I don't know what alternative universe you live in but it's way out there in space some where.
BTW, that same "conspiracy" will happily shift to Barack Obama or any other person who tries to effect the profits of the insurance industry, the health care industry, etc. That isn't exactly rocket science to figure that much out. Denying it is ridiculous and not worthy of discussion.

"One led men into battle"

No, as a matter of fact he didn't. He was a pilot who was shot down. He never led men into battle.
But thanks for playing.

Danni-

"It began when the Clintons tried to get national health care though and hasn't let up since."

Thanks for showing your hand, crack-pot.

I'm sure it has nothing to do with her, right? Instead, it's a vast unspoken right-wing conspiracy run out of a smoky back room at GOP headquarters where they do nothing but think of ways to destroy people who advocate for universal health care.

Do you even realize how stupid you sound?

"Do you care what the winner is going to do once elected or not?"

This election is about national health care. Hillary has been for it longer than any other candidate. That is what it is about. That is what the Republicans will be trying to stop. They will be going to lengths never before seen to try to derail it. There are literally billions of dollars of profits at stake. Trust me, they will fight with everything they have. This election is going to be a war.
And yes, I care about what happens after the election and I believe Hillary will fight harder for national health care than any of the other candidates...she has more invested in it....like her entire life.

"No, as a matter of fact he didn't. He was a pilot who was shot down. He never led men into battle.
But thanks for playing."

He was a Lt. Commander. You, know, an OFFICER! A LEADER OF MEN!!

You get stupider and stupider with each post.

"This election is about national health care. Hillary has been for it longer than any other candidate. That is what it is about. "

And there you have it. Zero logic. Zero sense.

Suddenly the whole election is centered around her one issue (that she utterly failed at last time). A divisive one at that. And time length alone is the sole measure of her competence.

And why is she better than, say, Barack? Because she can sling mud better.

Great. Thanks for making my point for me.

""He was a Lt. Commander. You, know, an OFFICER! A LEADER OF MEN!!"

Kevin, my Dad was a full Commander and also a pilot. He didn't lead men until he became a squadron commanding officer. He flew a plane...actually lots of planes.
Doesn't matter anyway, I have great respect for John McCain and I wouldn't want to try to criticize his military record in the slightest.
That doesnt' necessarily mean I want him for president though. I will say however, compared to the other REpublicans would be my choice. He ain't no Dumbya, I'll give him that.

"I believe Hillary will fight harder for national health care than any of the other candidates...she has more invested in it....like her entire life."

That's a better reason to support her than "I think she can win".

I realize that we'll have to agree to disagree on this - Personally, I don't see her as a leader or a fighter at all. From what I've seen, her political career is charecterized by the fact that she never fails to do what she thinks is popular at the time regardless of her previously expressed positions. That is a follower and a sellout, not someone who is going to fight hard for a cause.

"Instead, it's a vast unspoken right-wing conspiracy run out of a smoky back room at GOP headquarters where they do nothing but think of ways to destroy people who advocate for universal health care."

Kevin, with the amounts of money involved do you realize how ridiculous it is to pretend that there isn't a group determined to derail it...with millions of dollars to spend, with no ethics, with no limits on their tactics. When you are talking about hundreds of billions of dollars please don't think people play by the rules you think are governing politics. Think....JFK, RFK, MLK, ETC.

You think that's crazy???? I think you are naive, very, very naive.

"That is a follower and a sellout, not someone who is going to fight hard for a cause."

Well, she's been supporting national health care longer than any of the others. That's committment.
Some will say she is just ambitious but I read her biography, and I honestly don't believe she is.
That's just my opinion. I honestly think she gets a bad rap from people who don't really even know very much about the real Hillary.

"If you can't intelligently refute my posts that is your problem."

Oh Danni. Your points have been intelligently refuted by myself and others many times over. And your "intelligent" rebuttal is to call anyone who has an opinion different than yours "Kool Aid drinkers" because somehow you think you know better than anyone else.

Get a mirror and check it occasionally before you hit "submit". And thanks for doing your part to keep the party unified.

Danni-

In fairness, anyone who graduated from the Naval Academy, and has continuous advancement through the ranks is obviously a proven leader of men. Thats what officer training is all about. Who actually leads in combat is based purely on the circumstances.

I'm just sick to death of hearing about Clinton's "experience". Pandering to and raising money from established interests is not the sort of experience most folks are seeking. And I notice none of her supporters like to talk about her Senate record, or the fact her name is not on one bill. Experience indeed. Her military "expertise" is going to be her biggest problem in the general election by far. She's only proven that in a crisis she'll put her finger to the wind, talk with her advisers, and take the most politically advantageous action. Hmmm...sounds familiar.

Kevin obviously you want a REpublican to win, too bad you didn't have such strict qualifications when Dumbya was running. Sorry, but anyone who says we can stay in Iraq for 100 years is wrong (nuts) regardless of a very proud military career.
Sorry, but just think about the expense...at the rate we are going it would amount to approx. 20 trillion dollars.

Danni-

re: your conspiracy theory - So you honestly believe in this vast conspiracy against Hillary simply because opposing interests have money? And what about all the money she's getting from these same groups so they can be on the ground floor of a "new" universal system of crappy health care (ie same old crap with a whole new layer of bureaucratic non-sense attached)? Does this make her part of a conspiracy as well?

Do you have any idea what you are writing before posting?

SANANTONIOROGUE I have given plenty of arguments why I think Hillary would be a better candidate. All I have seen so far is attacks on Hillary in response...not evidence that Barack Obama could go up against the Republicans successfully. That is all I want to know. If he can then just give me some evidence of it. It may just work out that he has to, I hope someone is planning for it because it is going to be WWIII, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, and X all rolled together. I sure hope he's ready for it. You guys need to stop attacking Hillary for a minute and consider what I am saying. Think back to the Kerry campaign and multiply it times ten and you might be getting close to what is in store for Obama or whoever the nominee turns out to be. I believe Obama supporters are so intent on defeating Hillary that they have forgotten about that. The Republicans haven't, trust me on that.

Danni-

"Kevin obviously you want a REpublican to win, too bad you didn't have such strict qualifications when Dumbya was running. Sorry, but anyone who says we can stay in Iraq for 100 years is wrong (nuts) regardless of a very proud military career."

Now you have jumped off the deep end. I have to be republican? Why? And I'm a Bush supporter now? How? And I support the Iraq invasion now? Relly?

You are that desperate? What are you trying to "win" by attacking or blindly attaching labels so you can attack the straw-man rather than the words you read? Why don't you address the real issues I raised with your candidate? Tough isn't it?

I am sad that Obama did not come away with a big win but this may be a good thing still. I also have to admit that I am also taken in by Obama's Charisma so I get a little carried away with HOPE.

Regardless, this is turning out to be a heck of a race and if Hillary wants to win my support back from Obama she will need to werk very hard.

I don't want Hillary's kind of change I want the kind of change that Obama represents.

I am also glad that Romney got his butt handed to him by McCain. He deserves it for being such a Shape Shifter.

"I have given plenty of arguments why I think Hillary would be a better candidate. All I have seen so far is attacks on Hillary in response...not evidence that Barack Obama could go up against the Republicans successfully. That is all I want to know."

All your points going to her being better were easily refuted with points on why she's, in fact, worst. You can call them attacks to try and elicit sympathy, but it wont help. Clinton's camp employs 90% of the democratic attack-dogs. And people who live in glass houses...

You need evidence that Barack can win before you'll consider it? Sounds like an excuse. I can say I wont drive on the roads until I'm provided conclusive evidence that I won't die, but in the end I'll just be denying myself all the opportunities leaving the house brings. That evidence doesn't exist by definition. No one is a soothsayer.

But listen to the republican candidates and you'll discover very quickly that they are licking their chops over Hillary's bid. They all publicly fear Obama's Teflon image. Isn't that evidence?

Watch Billary screw all the anti-war protesters if she gets the chance to raise her hand and swear on the bible.

Sheeple....daaahhhahhnnii daaaaahhaaaannniiii


Richardson Accuses Clinton of Flip-Flop' on Iraq Pullout

By Patrick Healy

MUSCATINE, Iowa -- I just got a phone call -- unprompted -- from Gov. Bill Richardson of New Mexico, a Democratic candidate for president, blasting Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton for saying she would withdraw nearly all American troops from Iraq within a year of beginning redeployment.

"Senator Clinton's comments are a stunning flip-flop -- she's been saying she would keep troops in Iraq for five years, until 2013, and now she comes up with an inconsistent, incredible turnaround," Mr. Richardson said.

Mrs. Clinton has maintained that she would leave a residual force behind in Iraq to pursue narrow missions, a position that her spokesman said she still holds. As her aides have done before, the spokesman declined to say how many troops Mrs. Clinton would leave.

"And what about all the money she's getting from these same groups so they can be on the ground floor of a "new" universal system of crappy health care (ie same old crap with a whole new layer of bureaucratic non-sense attached)?"

That is a fair criticism of her and one that I share with you. However, I think the logic behind it is probably something like either bring the insurance industry/health care industry into the planning (just as Barack says too BTW) or else face the brunt of their attack. I don't know if you remember what happened the last time they tried to even bring this up for discussion....there was a whole smear campaign focused on the health care plan and the Clintons themselves. It wasn't a coincidence that the Congress spent 70 million on an investigation of Bill Clinton later. I don't think they believe it is possible to get health care through without cooperating with the present suppliers but at least begin reducing their control. I think that is just realistic and will actually give us some kind of plan to start with. Otherwise nothing will change at all.

""Only a new generation of leaders can solve these new challenges""

So says Gary Hart. I seriously doubt that there is any basis in fact for that statement. Hillary Clinton is 60 years old, not by any means, so old as to make her irrelevant or incapable of bringing change. It is more likely to me that the "change" everyone is yearning for is really the same "change" the Clintons fought for in the nineties. With a Democratic majority she could deliver the health care she tried to bring in the ninties but was foiled when the Republicans won control of Congress.

but , but... Hillary is an agent of change...

look see the crocoshit tears, its genuine

It's kind of amazing how some call the current commander in chief a drug addict drunk but, give Obama a slide for being a drug user.

Posted by Dalton at 2008-01-08 07:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

It's 'amazing' to you? Is it? Really?

One tried drugs when he was in college and the other was an alcoholic into his forties, and a cokehead while he was supposed to be part of the national defense as a pilot in the TNG. He failed that physical though because he refused to take it.

See any difference?

One ore thing. One was honest about his drug use and the other was not. Guess which.

""It's also great to hear Hillary say in her speech that she has finally "found her voice." Whatever the hell that means."

I think anyone who is honest and also has half a brain knows exactly what she meant. Obviously, to all except those who choose not to understand, she has discovered that she needs to allow her own natural personality to show through her tough side.

Posted by danni
* * * *

I understand perfectly. She has figured out what it is you want her to tell you.

"I don't think they believe it is possible to get health care through without cooperating with the present suppliers but at least begin reducing their control."

Adding a layer of regulatory non-sense (enforced by appointees from the industries at issue) will not help to control costs. It'll make it worst. And she'll add tons of future entitlements to an already burdened system. Health companies welcome the "change" she proposed for good reason. They can help write the rules, selectively enforce them, manipulate prices more efficiently, and lie more effectively about what they're doing. When you say "reducing control", you need to understand what you're really talking about.

Who's going to regulate the regulators? Audit the auditors? Etc. Its a terrible way to solve anything.

The best way to show you are serious about controlling anyone is to stop taking their money. Obama and Edwards did that very thing.

""And she'll add tons of future entitlements to an already burdened system."

YOur post sort of reveals your own thoughts on the matter of national health care. I don't think I would take your opinion as fact for what the effect of forming a committee to reform health care in this country is capable of. YOu have a bias which is against the entire premise right from the start.

"Edwards did that very thing.

Er... he got 17% of the vote last night. Great guy but he ain't gonna be president.

"She has figured out what it is you want her to tell you."

LOL. Exactly. Finger-to-the-wind politics and partisanship for the sake of partisanship are her forte.

She's mobilizing that base though. The same base that gave us John Kerry in '04 wants to bring you Clinton in '08. Some folks just never learn. I'm sure they'll wow us yet again with their uncanny knack at picking the worst possible person for the job.

If the tough politician that has been Hillary isn't the real deal hillary after all huh, how do you then trust that she is being her true self now?

oh its so convenient not to have to think about that and just push the damn winner button isnt it.

You said you know Lennon, he wrote more about your condition soddy

"Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see

I think I know I mean "Yes," but it's all wrong.
That is I think I disagree."

Hey Repug, if you are so tired of the oldsters then why are you quoting John Lennon...he's older than I am for crying out loud. Why don't you quote your own generation....Fiftycent says....

Danni-

I just feel bad for anyone who can't see the forest for the trees. Keep drinking that Kool-Aid and assuming that anyone who disagrees must have an ax to grind. I know ignorance is bliss. But it's still ignorance.

So far, your lack of knowledge about anything except what's on Hillary's website or in her campaign speeches is more than telling. All you can do is create straw-men to attack. Hilarious considering it is exactly what W has been doing MUCH more successfully for years now.

I just sit back and laugh.

Repug is right on.

Hey Tony, and that proves what?
If she and a few thousand more voted for Obama he would have won.
In all liklihood I would predict that Obama will end up with the nomination but the ridiculous level of Obama partisanship within the Democratic Party is surprising and alarming to me. It's like the support Obama but if he doesn't get the nomination they would walk away from the Party and the goals of the party. I think it shows an immaturity which is probably one of the reasons Democrats are so good at losing elections. Sometimes I think Democrats are our own worst enemies.
Clue: National Health Care is more important than any candidate.
Getting our of Iraq is more important than any candidate.
The economy is more important than national health care or any candidate.

there are many great old people, dead people, many in history as i already stated (pay attention) who had great ideas, should we not reflect on the wisdom of history. I wasnt brought up listening to fity, so I wouldnt know. I was brought up to think independently and absorb great ideas from people throughout history.

However if I was raised in your era and considered myself a hippie, like you said you were, I wouldnt have abandoned the core values of a system that rallied against the man (Big govt.) to then turn your back on everything that era stood for. Your support for big brother and corporate schilling is a laugh. you were no true protester just a guy who smoked pot and forgot why he was there in the first place.

You and your block of voters has settled for the status quo, settled for "the man" to run your life for you. Just face it, if you really were a hippie and stood for individuality, you wouldn't have completely abandoned those principals are become worse than anything your parents generation ever were that you protested. You have failed the vision and ideals of your generation.

Go back and look at the FACTS I posted in the middle of the thread, your demographic supports the status quo and further demise of middle class America...Hillary

The economy is more important than national health care or any candidate.


OK we agree on one thing so far.

explain to me how corporate entrenchment in the govt who vacuum tax dollars paid out to big govt agencies like the Dept of Energy and Education is good for the economy?

Especially when you taking the food off the table of hardworking americans by increasing their tax liability?

Wouldnt you think that its logical to remove the subsidies paid by workers to corporations? might that be a better place to help the working class?

""explain to me how corporate entrenchment in the govt who vacuum tax dollars paid out to big govt agencies like the Dept of Energy and Education is good for the economy?"

Dept. of Energy should have a pretty clear mission but under the present administration it obviously does not. It should be funded with the ability to invest in alternative energy research, etc.

Dept. of Education could also have an important mission of bring American schools up to the levels in other nations. Again under Bush it is just a funnel for dollars to cronies.

"your demographic supports the status quo and further demise of middle class America."

What you seem to want is for my age bracket to give up SS and Medicare so that your generation will not have to pay in the same type taxes I've paid in all my life. Sorry, not going to happen and sorry you don't speak for your generation. Also, it is wrong to say "my democraphic" prevents yours from accomplishing anything when you look at the number of people actually voting yours comes up short. If you and your generation doesn't like what mine has wrought then go vote for change...but you'll have to win and you didn't last night. BTW, the change Obama envisions is virtually identical to Hillary's vision. They really are not very different.

"Wouldnt you think that its logical to remove the subsidies paid by workers to corporations?"

You mean what? Farm subsidies?? Oil Industry subsidies?? You got to be more specific.

""explain to me how corporate entrenchment in the govt who vacuum tax dollars paid out to big govt agencies like the Dept of Energy and Education is good for the economy?"

Dept. of Energy should have a pretty clear mission but under the present administration it obviously does not. It should be funded with the ability to invest in alternative energy research, etc.

Dept. of Education could also have an important mission of bring American schools up to the levels in other nations. Again under Bush it is just a funnel for dollars to cronies.

"your demographic supports the status quo and further demise of middle class America."

What you seem to want is for my age bracket to give up SS and Medicare so that your generation will not have to pay in the same type taxes I've paid in all my life. Sorry, not going to happen and sorry you don't speak for your generation. Also, it is wrong to say "my democraphic" prevents yours from accomplishing anything when you look at the number of people actually voting yours comes up short. If you and your generation doesn't like what mine has wrought then go vote for change...but you'll have to win and you didn't last night. BTW, the change Obama envisions is virtually identical to Hillary's vision. They really are not very different.

"Wouldnt you think that its logical to remove the subsidies paid by workers to corporations?"

You mean what? Farm subsidies?? Oil Industry subsidies?? You got to be more specific.

""We're sick of fighting, and thats EVERYONE, liberals, conservatives and moderates.""

Lovely words Tony but one problem....there is huge amounts of money at stake....there will be fighting....bitter fighting....you think the Republicans are going to lay down and allow national health care without a fight????
You are dreaming.
Before you can end the bitter fight between Dems and Republicans you need to determine where it is coming from...it is coming from where it always comes from....those who want the status quo. They will not let go of the reigns of power without a fight.
This nonsense about it being a generational thing is ridiculous. It is a class war as JOHN EDWARDS screams at you every chance he gets and rightly so. IN a perfect world we'd be discussing whether to vote for him or for Kucinich. We are debating which compromise candidate to support. Obama and Clinton are both compromise candidates willing to deal with the corporations and negotiate for the American people, nothing more.

This election is about national health care.

Posted by danni


Really? Here I was thinking that it was going to be about illegal immigration, the war in Iraq, the economy, terrorism, etc.

Maybe you should have wrote that this election FOR YOU is about national health care.