Well, it looks as if the last of the flimsy excuses for torture the (mis)administration had is melting away.

Well, of course waterboarding works!

What are these so-called "federal investigators," anyway? Some kind of nut-rubbing, scalp-scratching, butt-crack caressing pieces of libscum?

You how I know it works? I know it works because everytime I even think of it I pee and give up the real kidnappers of the Lindberg baby.

Go, Rudy! Go, Rudy! Go, Rudy! GO!!!!!!

Has Ashcroft been waterboarded yet to demonstrate how benign that method is?

Just imagine the scenario.

You're briefed by your CO that, because you know too much, you are a potential target for torture during an interrogation.

The strategy?

You and everyone else knows you are going to talk.

It isn't about not talking.

It's about making it useless until it's too stale to be of value.

So your head is also filled with plausible sounding nonsense.

You are told to mix it up. Hold on as long as you can and make use of it when you have to. When you slip, don't beat yourself up. You've already made a mess of the value it might be. They won't believe you sufficiently for it to be valuable by then.

As we all know, intel is time sensitive.

Then, you keep mixing it up some more.

How can anyone think this works? The military themselves have published works from the masters of interrogators from WWII that had a deft and far more successful approach.

But it sure satisfies the fragile ego to make a man think he's gonna die.

Just HAS to be what defending your country from true danger is all about. And, its damn hilarious when you see the trophy pictures afterwards.

Regards,
etc.

Damn. I just realized 101 can't respond.

Now that takes the fun out of it altogether.

Chair?

This one's for you....

Thou subtle, perjur'd, false, disloyal, spleeny, half-faced, flirt-gilled, dissembling, common-kissing, loathsome-as-a-toad malcontent! Do I have to come across this pond and teach you what the meaning of torture really is? You ever dare poke your ass into the Galleria with those play money Canadian dollars and I will personally ...."

I'd better stop. I don't want to be virtually banned by association with the foul mouth ....

I mean just look at that reference he made to my ass!

Rogers! Are you going to allow this or am I going to have to flag myself?!

Regards,
etc.

You ever dare poke your ass into the Galleria with those play money Canadian dollars and I will personally ....

I'm sure the greedy sack would give up a George for a Loony these days.

As I've said, if I were being tortured for information I didn't have... what would I do? Obviously I've never going to satisfy the inquisition that I actually don't know anything. I'm also never going to be able to give them anything they want. So, I'd make up the most cockamamie thing I could that would send them on as long a wild goose chase as possible. Preferably something vaguely possible but difficult to prove I was lying about.

Come down to it, if I did have secret knowledge, that's probably what I'd do, too.

We're chasing a thousand ghosts invented by torture sessions in Afghanistan, not Osama bin Laden.

Lawn

A good soldier would. They never stop being a soldier for the cause simply because they are now a POW.

And that is how it was handled better in WWII. They disarmed Japanese prisoners. Made them let go thinking of themselves as soldiers still, carrying on the fight up close and personal with the enemy.

Torture tells the prisoner they are dangerous. They are to be fought still. That they are frightening and so you will use any means you can because you fear them.

You empower them by torture.

They blather. They scream. They debase themselves. But they never lose sight of the fact that you are the enemy.

Unless you get them to let go being soldiers anymore.

Then, there is no "them vs. us". There is a lonely, frightened man getting told he can just go back to what he was.

If he should happen to show his appreciation, or just want to unburden himself, all the better.

Its a lot more fragile and takes more skill and patience, but you get something better than "OBL is plotting to use African bees to enslave America".

Wait....

Regards,
etc.

Torture tells the prisoner they are dangerous. They are to be fought still. That they are frightening and so you will use any means you can because you fear them.


You are conflating standards. A soldier is not the same thing as an insurgent, a guerilla soldier, a terrorist, etc.

Everything you've just said is apt, if applied to actual soldiers.

Guerilla/terrorist warfare is messy. It always has been and always will be. This type of warfare lends itself to collateral damage and ruthless tactics in the name of intelligence gathering.

What I find so disturbing is that observers don't lambaste guerilla tactics and guerilla warriors for their utter disregard for the rules of warfare. Instead, these observers absolutely rip any degree of expediency exerted by those who would greatly prefer conventionaly warfare where both sides observe the rules of engagement.

You are to expect the enemy or supposed enemy to behave badly. You do not expect Your own Countrymen to act just as badly. You expect more out of Your side than You do Your opponents. BTW How can I condemn someone for beating their wife when I myself am beating mine??

Larry Mohr

A fighter, defending his country, doesn't have to wear a uniform. Al-Q on the other hand does have a boot camp.

What is your point?

Jeff - asymmetrical fighting is exactly what you describe.

Are you telling me if the Russians haD successfully invaded and occupied America you would have grown up to be a good citizen and not tried killing a few of the bastards in what ever way you could?

You would have waited until you got a uniform, been paid your military pay, got your training, been issued a rifle and a copy of the Geneva Conventions, BEFORE you would do anything to defend against the enemy raping your country?

Tell me again that the insurgents are doing bad things.

Guess who has killed more innocents?

It's a race to the bottom at best. The attrocities are on both sides. And, taking the "Joe Horn" logic, America put itself in this position so it has nothing to complain about when someone shoots back.

See - fucked up logic. But then, I took the opposing side in the Joe Horn debate.

Regards,
etc.

Larry,

You raise a good point.

That said, perfect ethical standards are impossible (IMO) with this type of warfare unless we are willing to say, "Well, if you are going to use these tactics, you WILL win, unless we are willing to lower our standards a bit in order to win."

It's the same premise behind the assertion that the police should never involve themselves in a high-speed chase because it puts innocent by-standards at risk. If applied, all criminals have to do is put the peddle to the medal and they will likely be able to escape.

BTW Who attacked who in Iraq JeffJ??

Larry Mohr

Jeff- If all it took to stop a "24" scenario was a wooden plank, a pitcher of water, and a rag...I want my money back from the govt.

Just a random thought on waterboarding.

They are only Impossible because YOU want them to be Impossible JeffJ.

Larry Mohr

2 people for a total of 2 minutes each have been waterboarded. Polosi and other left wing idiots new about it. Just another way the screaming little babies(lefties) can make the news and cry about how much they hate bush.

Our soldiers get beheaded after they have been truly tortured.

It's not torture. Sit through a fricking opera.

Nuke em till they glow.. shoot em then dark!!

2 people for a total of 2 minutes each have been waterboarded. Polosi and other left wing idiots new about it. Just another way the screaming little babies(lefties) can make the news and cry about how much they hate bush.

Our soldiers get beheaded after they have been truly tortured.

It's not torture. Sit through a fricking opera.

Nuke em till they glow.. shoot em then dark!!

MPTOLEDO and what the fuck did they ever do to America. Iraq NEVER attacked the United States. They never attacked us so why do YOU want to Nuke Iraq?? Oh I keep forgetting Their land "Our" Oil. Unbelievable what GREED will do to a person.

Larry Mohr

Stormy,

So what do we do?


Once the die is cast, if the opposition selects these tactics do we just hold up our hands and quit because any successful engagement against this results in collateral damage and aggressive intelligence gathering?


If that's the case, why would any political body even consider abiding the rules of warfare?

Some other thoughts on torture:

Yeah, every country does, has done, and will do it.

International law has always been the rule that the countries in charge ram down the throat of others while evading. Israel has disregarded UN sanctions for decades. The US invades countries for selling arms to other countries that have terrorists, but we do that all the time.

Thankfully, we now have a president so incredibly stupid that our torture policies are coming out in the open to be smelled by all. I think the average American is starting to realize why the world hates our guts. And the stink is not pleasant.

Wow, just read Larrys opinions!! frickin pansy!!

You better run down to the nearest recruiting station and kiss the ass of a soldier. He is the reason you can sit around get stoned and come up with this garbage. Yes lets just leave them alone and they will leave us alone. Yes that worked well with 911.

Larry accuses:

They are only Impossible because YOU want them to be Impossible JeffJ.

Au contraire, Mon-Lar.

I don't want it to be impossible.

In fact, I wish it were possible.


That said, what I want and wish isn't reality.

Yes lets just leave them alone and they will leave us alone. Yes that worked well with 911.

When have we ever left the ME alone?

Anyone who is honest about the history of America, realizes that todays America is far more free and peaceful then at almost any time in our 230+ years. Yet by the reckoning of most Lefties this nation is being destroyed by the tactics and policies adopted in fighting this war. If that was true, this nation would have been destroyed long ago -- probably when it first began --when the Colonial "insurgents" provoked the "redcoats" into attacking them and then lied about it and blamed the British calling it the "Boston massacre".

By the standards of the US Left, America has a long and gory history of engaging in torture and murder of our enemies -- to Lefties, the Civil War, WW2 -- our "greatest generation" was filled with murderers and torturers. When a WW2 vet says on the documentary "The War" that after a certain point, "they stopped taking prisoners" one can almost here Liberals of today screaming about "War Crimes".

And ask General Tecumsheh Sherman what he thought about "torture" of enemy combatants.

How in the hell did the USA survive Sherman? By the reasoning of Liberals it should not have?

How in the hell did it survive all the torture and murder comitted by "our greatest generation" By the reasoning of Liberals it should not have?

And now we have all the Lefties in an uproar because approxiamtely three times a few years ago, the CIA poured a cup of water over some terrorists face for about 30 seconds each in order to get them to give up information which saved lives.

Like I am supposed to care, and call that "torture", give a crap, or condemn my own country for doing that. Not a chance. I applaud the CIA. Good job. Keep up the good work.

My question is, why did they only use this effective tactic 3x?

My thought on torture is that if you are not going to engage in it, then stay the fuck out of everyone else's affairs. You can't have an aggressive global policy and at the same time have a pussyfooted way of carrying it out. If you are unable to be just as tough and sick and depraved as your opponents because of moral or societal constraints, then you should not be fighting in a war. You should have stayed at home where you belonged.

AMEN Alexandrite the stench is mighty disgusting and will reak for decades to come.

Larry Mohr

And now we have all the Lefties in an uproar because approxiamtely(sic) three times a few years ago, the CIA poured a cup of water over some terrorists face for about 30 seconds each in order to get them to give up information which saved lives.

Wow, this post is so incredibly wrong I don't know where to begin.

Waterboarding was OK for the Spanish Inquisition, and the Japanese in WWII, so it's OK for bowa now. And what proof do you have that it saved lives? And how do you know that it didn't create MORE terrorists when word of the torture got out?

Nuremberg was apparently a big waste of time.

The reason the Middle East hates Our guts is because We have been meddling in their affairs for 60+ Years now. All for OIL and somewhat Israel. If the Middle East never had a drop of Oil We wouldn't BE there or be hated in the Middle East because We would have never fucked around in their backyards. THAT is the truth.

Larry Mohr

our "greatest generation" was filled with murderers and torturers

Funny, I had an article here from a former WWII vet that played chess with his captives. And he decried what Bush was doing now.

We treated enough germans well enough after WWII that they chose to live HERE. Did torture happen then? Of course, in ANY war you have some atrocities.

It was not, however, the order of the day.

JeffJ You never condemn it You never condemn the Government for using torture You just make excuses for it and try to justify it in Your mind. You say well they are bad so we must act just as bad. You have done so in this thread. What else am I to think??


Larry Mohr

Waterboarding led to the "intel" that Al Qaeda was in cahoots with Iraq, which was one of the main reasons we invaded.

The CIA warned Bush that the intel was flaky, with predictable results.

Bush hears what he wants to hear.

NOR Sanctioned by an Administration either Alexandrite.

Larry Mohr

Waterboarding was OK for the Spanish Inquisition, and the Japanese in WWII, so it's OK for bowa now.

Please spare the fake self-righteousness before I puke. Calling the "Waterboarding" the CIA does torture is a joke. And comparing it to what the Japs during WW2 and the "spanish Inqusition" is a bigger joke.

And how do you know that it didn't create MORE terrorists when word of the torture got out?

Then why did it get out during wartime? During WW2 the Press and the Government worked together to make sure that no information that could help our enemies would be released.

What is wrong with you? Why are you supporting the release of information which might be used as propaganda by our enemies and may lead to more American deaths?

We treated enough germans well enough after WWII that they chose to live HERE. Did torture happen then? Of course, in ANY war you have some atrocities.

Of course, you didn't hear about it till after the war was won.

But when the Left-leaning MSM and a majority of Democrats are dedicated to America's defeat -- then you have Americans helping our enemies defeat their own country and put our troops in even greater danger.

Then why did it get out during wartime?

Because No one wants to be Bush's fall guy in the govt anymore. The CIA has had enough of taking in it the ass for that chump.

Why are you supporting the release of information which might be used as propaganda by our enemies and may lead to more American deaths?

Our enemies, much like some people here, are going to use ANYTHING...EVEN GOOD NEWS, as an excuse to have their self-fulfilling prophecies. You know that. We could kill 300 Al Qaeda tomorrow and they'd say it proved how desperate we were.

If you want to stop giving those morons propaganda, how about we get the fuck out of their countries? Huh?

Once again you fall back on the "why do you hate America/why do you want Americans to die" bullshit when your other arguments fall apart.

Go fuck yourself, bowa.

It IS Torture Lokisfur no matter how much You want it not to be. We convicted Japanese people for doing the exact same thing during WW2. We are Americans We are SUPPOSED to be the Good guys NOT the bad guys.

Larry Mohr

Larry,


You never condemn the Government for using torture You just make excuses for it and try to justify it in Your mind

You are conflating condemnation with historical precedence. Fact is, our conduct in Iraq and Afghnistan is Mr. Rogers compared with actions and tactics utilized in the past. Pointing out this historical fact is not akin to condoning thuggery when it occurs.



The reason the Middle East hates Our guts is because We have been meddling in their affairs for 60+ Years now.

Blowback is a bitch. This isn't the only reason. Nevertheless, you raise a solid point.

Please spare the fake self-righteousness before I puke. Calling the "Waterboarding" the CIA does torture is a joke. And comparing it to what the Japs during WW2 and the "spanish Inqusition" is a bigger joke.

Bowa- I've seen people kick your ass on this point about a dozen times now. I have no interest in adding myself to the list. You can check up "WB" on wikipedia if you're lazy.

But stop pretending to be some kind of expert on psychology OR torture.

You haven't a clue on either front.

Fact is, our conduct in Iraq and Afghnistan is Mr. Rogers compared with actions and tactics utilized in the past.

That you're aware of.

Granted, our conduct with the "school of Americas" trumps a lot of things.

However, we do know that our govt has been hiding prisoners from the red cross, and taking them to countries that torture for us.

Just because "we've done worse" doesn't excuse the bullshit going on now.

But when the Left-leaning MSM and a majority of Democrats are dedicated to America's defeat --

That explains why they keep giving bush the money he wants for Iraq.

In fact, other than a few stupid public comments, the dems have caved to EVERY SINGLE DEMAND BUSH HAS HAD FOR IRAQ. All of them. Every god damned one of them.

So if the dems are indeed making America lose, it's because they keep backing down to, and playing follow-the-leader to the dumb bastard YOU VOTED INTO THE PRESIDENCY!

But when the Left-leaning MSM and a majority of Democrats are dedicated to America's defeat --

This just makes me want to beat the shit out of the nearest dittohead. 7 years are unfettered control, and you losers are still blaming everyone else but yourselves and your shitty leaders.

You should not be allowed to vote any longer.

Alex,


Just because "we've done worse" doesn't excuse the bullshit going on now.


Of course not.


This all really boils down to the issue of: where do we draw the line?

Ask 10 people this quesion and you'll likely get 8 different answers - however, those answers won't differ much in terms of degree.


Anyhow...you will all have to soldier on without me as I am going to bed.

In fact I never see Lefties ever condemning anything that our enemies do to us, or do to civilians deliberately.

Bullshit. You're a very bad liar, bowa.

And "waterboarding" doesn't even scratch the surface of the shit our govt you voted in is doing.

only a moron would look at some guy strapped to a board and having a cup of water poured over his face to "simulate" drowning and call it "torture".

It's a good thing no one has ever drown, eh?

And it's also a good thing that we didn't used to prosecute this type of torture as a WAR CRIME, huh?

I guess it's not a war crime when the president belongs to your party. IOKIYAR.

Posted by LarryMohr at 2007-12-19 02:31 AM | Reply | Flag:

And larry buries dipshit in one post...AGAIN.

You've got the patience of JOB to keep posting links he'll never understand, dude.

Alexandrite My Momma always said I had a hard head. LMAO

Larry Mohr

Oh and I think He does He just doesn't want to swallow the facts of the matter. He is a GOOD NeoCon that is for certain. Moderate My ass.

Larry Mohr

More recently, waterboarding cases have appeared in U.S. district courts. One was a civil action brought by several Filipinos seeking damages against the estate of former Philippine president Ferdinand Marcos. The plaintiffs claimed they had been subjected to torture, including water torture. The court awarded $766 million in damages, noting in its findings that "the plaintiffs experienced human rights violations including, but not limited to . . . the water cure, where a cloth was placed over the detainee's mouth and nose, and water producing a drowning sensation."

only a moron would look at some guy strapped to a board and having a cup of water poured over his face to "simulate" drowning and call it "torture".

You lose. NOW you can add me to the list, bowa.

In 1983, federal prosecutors charged a Texas sheriff and three of his deputies with violating prisoners' civil rights by forcing confessions. The complaint alleged that the officers conspired to "subject prisoners to a suffocating water torture ordeal in order to coerce confessions. This generally included the placement of a towel over the nose and mouth of the prisoner and the pouring of water in the towel until the prisoner began to move, jerk, or otherwise indicate that he was suffocating and/or drowning."

The four defendants were convicted, and the sheriff was sentenced to 10 years in prison.

And it's also a good thing that we didn't used to prosecute this type of torture as a WAR CRIME, huh?

Again, spare me the bullshit self-righteousness. The Japanese that were convicted were doing a lot more then "waterboarding" prisoners -- they were beating them, abusing them in other ways.

But as per usual, the dishonest lefties here make it sound like they were just convicted of "waterboarding" POW's.

Now excuse me, while I go throw up -- all this Lefty crap is making me sick.

"only a moron would look at some guy strapped to a board and having a cup of water poured over his face to "simulate" drowning and call it "torture""

Well, it's official...Bowa has called our America prosecutors in Nuremberg, and four retired JAGs, "morons".

You make the call.

Danforth- The sad thing is...he's taking the word of our govt that those very pictures were even from Al Qaeda.

Granted, they do torture people and that's obviously wrong. But it doesn't excuse or diminish our bad behavior, nor does it change the past.

People have been prosecuted under our system of law for water boarding prisoners. Period. End of story. Bowa gets his ass kicked on this subject AGAIN!

Again, spare me the bullshit self-righteousness. The Japanese that were convicted were doing a lot more then "waterboarding" prisoners -- they were beating them, abusing them in other ways.

But as per usual, the dishonest lefties here make it sound like they were just convicted of "waterboarding" POW's.

Now excuse me, while I go throw up -- all this Lefty crap is making me sick.

Posted by Bowa at 2007-12-19 02:47 AM | Reply | Flag:

Keep spinning little girl. I never said that were ONLY convicted of waterboarding(watercuring) but they were WEREN'T THEY!

You said only a moron thinks it's torture.

The courts, American and international, have disagreed with your assessment since before you were born.

DEAL WITH IT! YOU LOST!

"This is real torture..."

America does not now, never has, and hopefully never will succumb to that evil type of moral relativism. Torture isn't okay, just because someone else tortures worse.

You are the problem.

In 1983, federal prosecutors charged a Texas sheriff and three of his deputies with violating prisoners' civil rights by forcing confessions.

And now the Liberal wants to give terrorists "civil rights".

How pathetic is that?

Every time I come here I thank God that I am a republican. I really don't know how Lefties like you can live with yourself.

Alexandrite I have a funny feeling We made those pictures to use as propaganda in order for the US Government to somehow condone their form of torture. What say YOU??

Larry Mohr

The Khmer Rouge had a water board, bowa. It's on display in a Cambodian museum.

Every time I come here I thank God that I am a republican. I really don't know how Lefties like you can live with yourself.


Posted by Bowa at 2007-12-19 02:51 AM | Reply

Real simple by waking up everyday and stretching My arms. Easy Peasy.

Larry Mohr

And now the Liberal wants to give terrorists "civil rights".

How pathetic is that?

You know what's actually pathetic?

That you believe your govt has captured nothing BUT terrorists, since they've had no trials in Gitmo to find out. That, and many of the people IN gitmo were given to us for a ransom. Some people got very rich removing their enemies, and we've subsequently let quite a few prisoners leave gitmo.

Just because you THINK they are terrorists doesn't prove it, now does it, you disgusting little idiot?

The whole reason we HAVE trials is to assume innocence before guilt so we don't harm innocent people. Can you tell me that every single person we've captured is guilty? Prove it.

"And now the Liberal wants to give terrorists "civil rights". How pathetic is that?"

One can always tell Bowa's lost the debate when he brings in a non-sequitur having nothing to do with the prior posts.

Look over here! Something shiny!

I really don't know how Lefties like you can live with yourself.

Posted by Bowa at 2007-12-19 02:51 AM | Reply | Flag:

It's harder living with a they're-all-guilty-cuz-Daddy-
sed-so! type of "american" like yourself. Trust me on that.

May you one day find yourself at the mercy of those that share your vision of justice.

One can always tell Bowa's lost the debate when he-

Types a response.

Sorry...had to correct your error, Danforth. Game on.

Damnnnnnnn where did He go I wonder bwhahahahahah

Larry Mohr

PerfectStorm

"Kaj Larsen Goes Waterboarding" was horrible to watch. I'm sure the real deal is even worse.

This is America?

PS- And Bush giving me all your money via taxcuts helps me live too, bowa.

I think I'll donate that next check from Texas to Amnesty International. Thanks.

You are conflating standards. A soldier is not the same thing as an insurgent, a guerilla soldier, a terrorist, etc.
POSTED BY JEFF

Sounds like George III giving lessons to George Washington.

Speaking of dumb things from Texas...where's pro-torture pinche at? I'm sure he has a devastating comeback about the awesomeness of Pinochet.

torture was used to gain false intelligence that was used to justify the invasion of iraq

torture therefore has lead to the deaths of 4000 americans

But when the Left-leaning MSM and a majority of Democrats are dedicated to America's defeat
Bowa



and with that post you return to the ranks of the ridiculous.

Democrats are dedicated to America's defeat?

Can't you hear how simple-mindedly STUPID (not to mention WRONG) that is?

"torture was used to gain false intelligence that was used to justify the invasion of iraq"

Morning Truth:

False intelligence wasn't received. Bush and company had accurate intelligence. They just took bits and pieces, manipulated it, omitted some, twisted it to suit their needs. There have been numerous folks who were close to the situatio, who spoke out and stated this was done. Apparently, Democrats don't have the backbone to begin impeachment once they had hold of power.

And why do you people even engage in conversation with "Bowa"?? You feed his delusional existance.

Lisa it's FUNNNNNN proving how much a Phoney Fake and a Fraud Lokisfur is. It just warms My very soul to watch Him dance. It's like a nice cold glass of Milk or a great batch of cookies or hell a nice long hot bath. It refreshes the soul.

Larry Mohr

LISA:

You feed his delusional existance.

Yeah, but think of the entertainment value.

From a credibility standpoint, Bowa is New York City's version of Tadowe.

"From a credibility standpoint, Bowa is New York City's version of Tadowe."

So, we're covered from sea to shining sea?

Good to know.

Hans

Larry and Twin:

It's really not entertainment watching someone so out of touch with reality...it's more sad and pathetic. And he won't accept help, so the delusion continues.

"And he won't accept help, so the delusion continues."

Yes it does, Lisa.

Hans

Ok Hans on Your Situation Awareness Blog thingy You have 012009?? whats that stand for?? I don't get it.

Larry Mohr

Yes Lisa I understand.

Larry Mohr

LISA

You take this site way too seriously.

I assume you have a scroll wheel on your mouse.

"Ok Hans on Your Situation Awareness Blog thingy You have 012009?? whats that stand for?? I don't get it."

That's our date of liberation, Larry:

January 20, 2009

Only 398 days left.

Hans

Oh Yeah NOW I get it. Thanks Hans. DUH ME.

Larry Mohr

"Thanks Hans."

Welcome, my friend.

FYI... If you click on that 012009 graphic it will take you to the actual countdown clock.

Hans

Of course torture works. Sorry folks, McCain cooperated 100% only a fool thinks otherwise.

McCain gave crap info. And signed a dumb piece of paper.

Big whoop.

Why is it that usually it is the fool who tells everyone else that they are foolish?

"What I find so disturbing is that observers don't lambaste guerilla tactics and guerilla warriors for their utter disregard for the rules of warfare. Instead, these observers absolutely rip any degree of expediency exerted by those who would greatly prefer conventionaly warfare where both sides observe the rules of engagement."

On the contrary, the anti-capitalist left has a long proud tradition of trying to legitimze the terror tacitcs used by leftist geurillas and other "activists," as well as the activists themselves. During the 1960s and 70s, the ICRC lobbied to extend the rights of Prisoners of War to terrorists that had committed crimes under the banner of various political causes. This included members of Hamas, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and the Red Army Faction. They did so in spite of the fact that these individuals specifically targted civillians, attacked indiscriminately, and made no effort whatsoever to adhere to the existing laws and customs of war as outlined in the Geneva Conventions.

Earlier a poster alluded to Al Quaeda fighters as being POWs. They are not. To be afforded the rights of a POW, you must first adhere to the laws and customs of war, as stipulated by the GC. Under the strictest reading, AQ fighters, and even the Taliban could not be considered legal combatants, since they don't represent a legitmate government or resistance movement. Of corse the coalition generally recognized Taliban fighers as being legitmate combatants, since they did control most of Afghanistan at the time of the invasion.

"Once the die is cast, if the opposition selects these tactics do we just hold up our hands and quit because any successful engagement against this results in collateral damage and aggressive intelligence gathering?"

As a SERE graduate, I am highly confident that this is a very well orchestrateded attack on american culture. This kind of torture, while not fun, is survivable. I have no lasting scars and I would be willing to be that what I went through in the mountains of Washington was significantly worse than what these guys have gone through, and doesn't hold a candle to what the recce guys have to go through.

The thing is, the only action that Al Quadea needed to take was have one of thier guys claim to have been horribly tortured by the americans. The sympathy that this has created amongst the anti-capitalist left is far greater than what they could have achieved by traditional means using anti-imperialist or counter-culture rhetoric.

Truth be told, the militant left has found in Al Quadea what they haven't had since at least Vietnam, an enemy that could blacken the eye of america and put a dent into what appeared to be a dominant and unstoppable cutlure. It is a fact that conversion to Islam in the UK increased after 9/11. I'd be willing to be that these converts weren't impressed by the religion's peaceful nature, but rather by the fact that fighters acting in it's name had just successfully accomplished the first successful attack on the US mainland since the early 1800s.

"The reason the Middle East hates Our guts is because We have been meddling in their affairs for 60+ Years now."

Meddling? How?

By doing everyting we could to keep those intereested free of communism? Since the USSR was doing a little meddling of thier own, don't you think some US meddling was justified?


Many secular arabs, even christians, are pissed off at the US position on Israel, and recognizably(sp) so. Islamists don't like us because we currently pose an insurmountable barrier to Islamic imperialism. It's going to be much harder for them to reclaim lost territories (like Spain, the Phillipeans, and Eastern Europe) with us around to stop them. I would hope that we continue to meddle. Meddling in the affairs of Islamists is like meddling in the affairs of the AIDs virus...We don't want either to spread.

Meddling? How?

Yeah. Iran just loved it when we ousted their elected leader and installed the shah.

You're an idiot, madbomber...and that's the nicest thing I can say to you.

"Yeah. Iran just loved it when we ousted their elected leader and installed the shah."

Yeah. I bet they would have been far happier with one of Stalin's cronies running the show. Of course what could the benevolent communists had wanted with Iran's large oilfields and access to the Persian Gulf?

"You're an idiot, madbomber...and that's the nicest thing I can say to you."

Me, the idiot? Perhaps not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but considering whose making the comment I think it's at best a case of pot calling the kettle black. Let me summarize for you. Islamism is the new communism is the new slavery. I'm not an apologist for any of those. You would appear to be. That makes you not only an idiot, but very likely an asshole as well.

I guess to each his own, I'm not a big fan of any of the "big three," but since there have been millions of people duped into thinking that communism, slavery, and islamism are acceptable, I shouldn't be too shocked...

Yeah. I bet they would have been far happier with one of Stalin's cronies running the show.

They voted. Or does someones vote only count when WE in the US like the result?
Apparently so.

Islamism is the new communism is the new slavery

Too bad we don't have a "final solution" for all those swarthy arabs, eh?

"My question is, why did they only use this effective tactic 3x?

Posted by Bowa"

Bowa, if you'd read the homework you would've realized that torture is not an effective tactic. It doesn't produce reliable results and it never will. People who are tortured will tell their torturers anything to make it stop. Then, if they survive the torture all it does is justify their antagonistic beliefs as well as drive them to try to exact some measure of justice against their torturers.

They voted. Or does someones vote only count when WE in the US like the result?
Apparently so.

"Bowa, if you'd read the homework you would've realized that torture is not an effective tactic. It doesn't produce reliable results and it never will. People who are tortured will tell their torturers anything to make it stop."

That's true about 99% of the time. During WWII, the German army rarely, if ever tortured prisoners. Downed airmen were treated almost as equals at various stalaglufts across Germany, where interrogators, themselves aviators, would attempt to engage allied airmen in subjects regarding aviation. It was their hope that the prisoners would willingly give up information as a function of shared interest or personal ego. In at least one case, a German interrogator arranged for an allied pilot to take a German fighter for a test drive.

Unless you know the nature of the information an enemy holds, you are only guessing as to what may or may not be factual. In those rare cases where it is obvious that a prisoner has certain information, the use of or threat to use force could be very useful. British interrogators in Ireland were very successful in used gross force with IRA commanders. In some cases, broken bones led to the revelation of information that ultimately led to lives being saved. In those cases, it is not only acceptable to hurt a prisoner, but one's duty.