Oh Tony, always the hopeful one against all reality. When black voters have to choose between Hillary or any of the Republicans, they'll pull the lever for Hillary. The woman has proved her resilience time and time again. Besides, she has white oligarchs behind her.

The woman has proved her resilience time and time again. Besides, she has white oligarchs behind her.

The second sentence is correct. The first is crumbling. Her "apology" to Obama reeked. Of course she knew about it.

Ray...

I guess you haven't been paying much attention lately, but the status quo is under assault by most reasonable people in America. Every single day the Bush Administration continues to show blatant contempt for our laws and Constitution and people are tired of it even if the Congress can do nothing about it.

I'd think you'd welcome the shunning of the corporatists and oligarchs both Obama and Edwards have made cornerstones of their campaigns. Every now and then the machine becomes too arrogant and greases the skids for its own demise. This election is such a time in my opinion. Whether its to be allowed by the powers-that-be has yet to be determined.

Sitdown
So what are blacks going to do when Hillary becomes the Democrat candidate? Like all the other scandals she weathered, this one too will pass like a storm in the night.

Sitdown...

I listened to a New Hampshire reporter, allegedly close to Shaheen, say that he's long had a reputation for running his mouth. She believes that he WASN'T speaking on behalf of the campaign and simply got caught thinking with his mouth open.

Personally, I'm more than willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, however, she has now latched onto the "electability" issue as though the mere fact of polling more votes than any of your opponents takes care of that, is anathema to her sensibilities. The Clintons as a duo are now questioning everything about Obama as though his lengthy personal record is a sparse as Hillary's. It isn't, and as its given more scrutiny it will become obvious who's actually utilized their "experience" to better the lives of Americans while getting things done, not just talking about them while accomplishing very little.

Sitdown
So what are blacks going to do when Hillary becomes the Democrat candidate? Like all the other scandals she weathered, this one too will pass like a storm in the night.

Hillary cannot win the nomination after this week. Read the transcripts from Bill's interview with Charlie Rose. He misrepresents Obama's experience, he misrepresents his accomplishments while never defining why Hillary, an entrenched relic of all that is wrong about politics, is going to bring change when she never has before and is beholden to the same corporatists as Bushco.

Its not that blacks will vote for a Republican, but after the Clinton's have shown their true colors, we certainly won't be supporting her as she uses the same veiled racist code language that defines the Republican's Southern Strategy.

Tony

I always pay attention, but I see more than you do. It doesn't matter who the two candidates are. Every one has designs on increasing the power of office, with the one possible exception of Ron Paul.

I'd think you'd welcome the shunning of the corporatists and oligarchs both Obama and Edwards have made cornerstones of their campaigns.

Don't make me laugh. Who do you think is subsidizing their campaigns? Politics is like religion. You don't get to high office unless you have proved yourself of the faith. Politics always has and always will operate as a spoils system. It's a rotten corrupt system that nothing good can come out of.

Hillary cannot win the nomination after this week.

Tony, you are so freakin naive, it's scary. When voters are faced with the devil they know and the devil they don't know, they mass towards the devil they know. Obama is too untested for party regulars to take a chance on. Your little world of good verses evil doesn't exist in politics. It's all evil. The more evil, the better the idiot masses like it. It's that strong president syndrome - SaPS.

More Blacks Lean Toward Obama

So what? Again I ask. What are blacks going to do when Hillary gets the nomination from white party regulars?

Therein lies the difference between hope and cynicism. You know that I don't disagree with you, but the one candidate with the least amount of corporate ties happens to be Obama. But I hope you're seeing how Hillary and Bill are poisoning the well with black America. It hasn't sunk in yet, but it will very quickly.

Very nice pro-Obama piece you've brought us this day, Tony.

Concise, factual, no low blows and always on point.

Mrs Clinton while a very polished and professional pol most days has become increasingly frayed by the points that Obama and her critics bring up.

She did vote for this war in Iraq w/o even reading the final NIE on the subject, the only one that actually contained all the caveats that made it clear as day that BushCo were spoiling for war and had been cherry picking intel to that end.

That alone disqualifies her for a shot at being POTUS.

The way she uncritically represents so many of the oligarchs who've lead the US down the path to international pariahdom must also be noted.

With just a few seeks before "go time" in the primaries it is essential that every member of the electorate be reminded of the real differences between the only two Dem candidates that matter.

On the one hand you still have too many uninformed voters who don't do their own research and who depend on the corporate media to keep them informed.

On the other end of the spectrum you have folks like Ray who have learned so much negative stuff about the system they don't see hope anymore.

It's a rotten corrupt system that nothing good can come out of.

~Ray.

In between the hopelessly cynical and mis-informed are the hopeful realists like you and Spud who see Obama as America's last best chance to restore greatness and goodness.

Spud thinks America can't afford not to take that chance.

Obama '08.

Be Well.

PS: Yes, that was Spud just then, entering blog-world's last great haven of true free speech and debate, the Drudge Retort, as ya do,
stage left.

Ray...

You are beginning to sound just like the frightened Bush supporters bleating on and on about the terrorist boogeyman trying to get us! I'm not naive Ray, I hear the pulse of this nation and you obviously don't. Of course there are legions that view it as you do, but fear is not motivating people this year, hope is. We're at the bottom of the freaking barrell and people know it! The only way we have to go is up and we aren't getting there by re-embracing fear and division. Neither of us is right nor wrong right now. All we can do is predict what will occur in the near future, and I'll stand by mine until something happens to make me think otherwise.

She did vote for this war in Iraq w/o even reading the final NIE on the subject, the only one that actually contained all the caveats that made it clear as day that BushCo were spoiling for war and had been cherry picking intel to that end.

That alone disqualifies her for a shot at being POTUS.

Spud and tonyroma think alike. I've not quite understood why Obama hasn't pulled this nuclear arrow out of his quivver yet. I know that Hillary isn't able to articulate a reason for not having served this nation's interests by at least reading the classified NIE before she went on the Senate floor and happily joined Bush and the neo-cons in starting the worst foreign policy disaster in the history of this nation.

As Spud says, can you see the aftermath when Obama asks Hillary in an upcoming debate why she didn't, even after Senators Durbin and Graham practically begged their colleagues, to read the classified NIE before voting on AUMF. Only 6 Senators did, and all but the Republican Roberts then voted AGAINST the AUMF! Any sitting Senator who can't bother to read the most important document undercutting the rational for imminent war with Iraq before voting to give Bush carte blanche doesn't deserve to be POTUS. Its as simple as that.

Tony
Therein lies the difference between hope and cynicism.

Baloney! The difference is between fantasy and reality. It took a hundred fifty years from the time of the Civil War to get this far to the bottom of the barrel. There is too much momentum to stop until things get so bad, it wakes the sheeple out of their slumber.

In your fantasy world, a snake can be turned into a rabbit. Politics is what it is; it's incapable of change until its confronted by a new generation not brainwashed by the old order.

This country is looking at the mother of all Depressions and an escalation in the war in the ME. This is what the Washington gang lives for.

Neither of us is right nor wrong right now.

Don't project your naivety on me. I know this topic too well. You're going to have to learn the hard way if you ever do.

I'm not naive Ray, I hear the pulse of this nation and you obviously don't.

What you hear is babble from the mainstream media. Hillary's nomination is a fait accompli. It's all a show to give the appearance of honest competition. I'm done with you for today.

Get a grip. If this guy gets the nod (he won't) he'll be taken out in a big way.

He's got a lot of splainin to do with firearm issues, abortion issues (parental notification)
and a plethora of other stances he took while in the illinois senate.

Shots aren't fired until they're required.

It's the way corrupt system works.

You can hang out as a senator, rep, mayor etc. and reap the fruits of a system you'll be required to help corrupt for your and those that made you, advantage. But come big seat time, anything and everything you've said, done, and plan to do is brought to light when necessary Unless the system (mafia) has blessed you to be the new godfather or godmother.

Ray is correct. The machine is the machine.

What you hear is babble from the mainstream media. Hillary's nomination is a fait accompli. It's all a show to give the appearance of honest competition. I'm done with you for today.

Fine, then be ready to eat crow as Hillary decends into irrelevance. You are the one repeating the MSM mantra, not me. Americans do not support Hillary, they tolerate her, but since she's showing every negative facet that her critics have spent decades pointing to, she's undermined her own message. No one with "35 years of experience in government" can call themselves an agent of change when their existence is based upon playing the Establishment's role.

I continue to see tome after tome of Americans from every corner of this nation seeing a hope they'd long since abandoned in Obama. This isn't the MSM, its middle America and this is where I live. The only question about Obama remains him proving that people will vote for him when it counts. If Obama wins Iowa, the race is over. Don't mock my words, just remember them if they become prophetic instead of insane.

Spud and tonyroma think alike. I've not quite understood why Obama hasn't pulled this nuclear arrow out of his quiver yet. I know that Hillary isn't able to articulate a reason for not having served this nation's interests by at least reading the classified NIE before she went on the Senate floor and happily joined Bush and the neo-cons in starting the worst foreign policy disaster in the history of this nation.

Spud only caught Hill trying to articulate her response to that question once.

She sed with an arrogant sniff...

"That's not the way Washington works"

Now Spud knows wot she meant by that response but Spud also knows that that shit won't "play in Peoria" so to speak.

With time running down Obama needs to take this arrow out of his quiver and hit the bulls-eye.

Find that exact quote wot Spud referred to and let that illustrate to the electorate wot an unabashed beltway insider she is.

That quote examplifies perfectly the fact she is not only NOT an agent for much needed change but she represents the status quo and the current oligarchy fiercely.

Of course, Deth is an imaginary potato and a Canuckistani one at that but still Spud is convinced this could help Senator Barack Obama's Campaign out immensely here as the clock ticks down toward the primaries.

That's Spud's 2 cents ...fer wot it's worth.

Be Well.

/Spud is off fer lunch now back in a bit. Laws Yes!

As a Libertarian leaning independent, I'd vote for Obama ahead of every Democratic candidate and most Republican ones.

Barring a Paul nomination, I'd like to see an Obama/Biden ticket. I really am not a fan of their domestic agenda, But for the sake of Biden having the best Iraq plan I've seen to date, and Obama at least giving Lip service to the idea of actual change in Washington.

Paul vs. Anyone - Paul
Obama vs. Anyone else - Obama

Hillary vs. Giuliani, I'm staying home.

7: What is his urban poverty agenda?

It is difficult to make change if you haven't provided a plan for how you will do so. Beyond Chron compared the major Democratic nominees' plans to address urban poverty. Senator Obama was ranked as having the most detailed proposal for addressing this issue. Some other major candidates have not even put out a full plan yet. He also ranks highest on environmental issues too.

Posted by GustoGus at 2007-12-16 05:25 AM

Paul vs. Anyone - Paul
Obama vs. Anyone else - Obama

Hillary vs. Giuliani, I'm staying home.

" Better and more effective plans to transfer money from other Americans to "the urban poor.""

Why not, especially after 8 years of transferring money from the poor to the "suburban rich"...?

The power of projection is obvious. Posters project qualities onto Mr. Obama that they would like him to have, but which don't have any basis in fact.

Also, someone objected to inquiring of Mr. Obama regarding drug dealing? Isn't it customary to wash a candidate's dirty linen in public. The poster indicates some connection between avoiding the indelicate question and that Mr. Obama is black and by inference more likely to have been a drug dealer because of that.

Mr. Obama acknowledged heavy drug use. It is a throw of the dice that kept him from prison rather than seeking election as a political candidate. Isn't his predilection toward criminal conduct worth exploring. Did he acquire another set of values? When? Under what circumstances?

I suggest that everyone refrain from questioning Mr. Giuliani regarding his dalliances. Are you questioning him regarding amour because he's Italian. You know, the Latin Lover thing?

What's off the table for Ms Clinton? Is it the dyke thing, the rumors of her being a practicing lesbian?

What about Mr. Paul? Is his long-term association with neo Nazis not subject to inquiry?

What about Mr. Huckabee? Is his denunciation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and serving as a keynote speaker at a Mormon-bashing convocation not subject to inquiry?

Some have even taken umbrage at Mr. McCain and Mr. Thompson having young attractive wives as somehow disqualifying them for the Presidency.

So acknowledged heavy drug use is supposed to be off the table? Why? Because as the poster noted, he's black? Does that accord Mr. Obama special privileges and exemption from notation of his foibles?

Amazing that a person who claims to be "libertarian" would support someone whose claims for support include providing health care coverage to more people, and will increase welfare benefits?

Really? Are you folks libertarians? Or poseurs? Or do you yourselves know?

I see what you say your believe abstractly, but refute with your support of practical applications that are contrary to your belief system.

"Why not, especially after 8 years of transferring money from the poor to the "suburban rich"...?"

Hmmm...where did the "poor" get all that money that was transferred to the "suburban rich," Danny? Are you talking about rich people ripping off the "earned income" that taxpayers pay to the "poor?" Maybe Trump and Gates have been stealing their welfare? All those taxes the "poor" paid going to support the "suburban rich." I get it, Danny. You probably should stick to making anchors and forget about analyzing economics.

"Mr. Obama acknowledged heavy drug use."

Heavy? Where did you see that?

"It is a throw of the dice that kept him from prison rather than seeking election as a political candidate"

Or was it the courage and will to turn things around and make something out of his life?

"I suggest that everyone refrain from questioning Mr. Giuliani regarding his dalliances. Are you questioning him regarding amour because he's "Italian."

No, we're questioning that he duped the taxpayers into footing the bill for his extramarital activities.

Some have even taken umbrage at Mr. McCain and Mr. Thompson having young attractive wives as somehow disqualifying them for the Presidency."

Only in your imagination. Nothing wrong with that. Although Mr. McCain was also secretly involved with the current Mrs. McCain for quite some time while still married to the first one.

This is a question for Barack Obama. Religion has come up many times for both Republicans and Democrats in this campaign.

You became a Christian as an adult and could have chose any number of Christian churches to call home -- yet you chose to belong to an "afro-centrist" church, the Trinity United Church of Christ which states emphatically on their website, "We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land". Your Church also goes on to proclaim, "The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to...a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA".

So my two questions for you are: 1st, Where in the Bible does Jesus say Christians should segregate their followers by race. And 2nd, How can you say you will be a President who represents all Americans fairly and equally regardless, of race, creed, gender, or religion when you belong to a church which makes such a definitive doctrinal commitment to one race and Africa and never mentions any similar commitment to the equality of all races?

You hypocrite Bowa!!!!

First of all, it's none of your damn business what religion Obama is, much less the rest of this country;s.

Secondly, you...belonging to the biggest white club in this country, are going to challenge a man's integrity and capability of running this country because he belongs to a church that consists of black men, women and children?

You are the worst piece of shit I have ever had the displeasure of coming across.

No one, and I mean NO ONE was less qualified to run this country than Bush and you strongly support him, and go after a mans religion and the race that makes up his congregation.

You fucking racist!!!

Poor Bowa. He just keeps posting the same crap over and over, day after day, just hoping someone, anyone will buy it.

He must feel a lot like the "slow" kid who sits in bewilderment because everybody else get it, and he doesn't.

because he belongs to a church that consists of black men, women and children?

No Lisa, you must not have been paying attention. I have no problems with Obama belonging to a church that is primarily black -- there is nothing wrong with that at all. In fact, I grew up in an almost all black neighborhood and went to the United Methodist Church with an almost entirely black congregation.

That Methodist church preached brotherhood, unity, and equality and fully embraced the ideals of the dream of MLK had of a "colorblind" society. And while I remember cultural events in which there was "pot luck" dinners with all kinds of delicious foods with roots in africa, the west indies, etc. And I even made and wore my own dashiki during a summer program the church had -- that never replaced the main tenets of the methodist faith -- that we are all brothers and sisters and should never judge someone on the basis of race.

Obama's church on the other hand embraces racism and segregation as central to their Christian faith. and that is a very distrubing thing.

First of all, it's none of your damn business what religion Obama is, much less the rest of this country;s.

Lisa, your hypocrisy is showing. You would be singing a different tune if Obama was white, and he belonged to a church that stated emphatically on their website that "We are a congregation which is Unashamedly White and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the White religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an Aryan people, and remain "true to our European roots". Your Church also goes on to proclaim, "The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to...a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO OUR ARYAN HOMELANDS".

Can you possibly say that if a white candidate belonged to such a church you would be saying that it is nobody's business what religion they are?

You fucking racist!!!

I am not a racist at all. I am pointing out the hypocrisy of people like you who judge people on the basis of race and hold people to differing sets of standards based on the color of their skin. That is the very definition of racism -- and you might want to look in the mirror before attacking those for pointing out your own prejudices.

Poor Bowa. He just keeps posting the same crap over and over, day after day, just hoping someone, anyone will buy it

I have the truth on my side. Racism is wrong. Segregation is wrong. One of the main reasons I am a Republican and not a democrat is because I have the Democrats to continue to support racism and segregation by race in this country -- and the defense by Lefites here of Obama's membership in an overtly racist and segregatinist church does nothing to dissuade me of those views.

I suggest not one poster feed Bowa's sick delusional posts anymore.

It's obvious that this guy isn't dealing with a full deck, and perhaps we are only hurting him by continuing to respond to his nonsense, forcing him to continue his illogical ramblings.

Bowa has some very obvious problems dealing with reality, and other psychological issues.

Best to let him talk to himself and ignore him.

Seriously, I can't believe this guy is allowed to walk the streets.

Most people that out of touch with reality are locked up.

I suggest not one poster feed Bowa's sick delusional posts anymore.

Lisa, yes I am so out of touch with reality to say that racism and segregation is wrong.

You can call me names, and try to get other posters to ignore me blah blah blah. But you still have not responded to the main point which is that if a white candidate belonged to a church which made the white race central to their faith, as Obama's church makes the black race, you and all the Lefties here would be calling him a "neo-nazi" and a "Klansmen".

And guess what? So would I?

And that's the difference me, and every republican I know -- who believe in and are actively trying to make MLK's dream of a "colorblind" society a reality - and you, san and other Lefites here who continue to judge people on the basis of race and hold people to differing sets of standards based on the color of their skin.

It is unfortunate that I must keep repeating the same things over and over again about Obama -- but the fact that he belongs to an overtly racist and segregationist church is so disturbing that it clouds everything he says.

Well, Danforth -- Nice attempt at a Rudy deflection.

I didn't know that Rudy's support of traditional Catholic dogma was such a big part of his candidacy -- after all his being pro-choice and everything. It is well known that Rudy, along with many millions of other catholics are at odds which much of the tenets of their 2000 year old faith. Also it should be remembered that Rudy was born into catholicism. While Obama, as an adult, chose to belong to an overtly racist and segregationist church.

Let me stress that -- Obama, as an adult, could have chose to belong to any christian faith -- but instead he chose to belong to a young, and small (relative to the major churches) congregation which made racism and segregation the central tenets of their Christianity.

While people here try to deflect and call me names. The fact remains, You would be singing a different tune if Obama was white, and he belonged to a church that stated emphatically on their website that "We are a congregation which is Unashamedly White and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the White religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an Aryan people, and remain "true to our European roots". A Church that goes on to proclaim, "The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to...a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO OUR ARYAN HOMELANDS".

Can you possibly say that if a white candidate belonged to such a church you would be saying that it is nobody's business what religion they are?

Nope. You would be calling that candidate a neo-nazi and a klansmen.

So why are you holding Obama to a different standard just because of the color of his skin?

I am 100% behind what Lisa said. Lokisfur is way too far gone.

Larry Mohr

Bowa sez:

"I didn't know that Rudy's support of traditional Catholic dogma was such a big part of his candidacy"

I'm sure it's just as much--or just as little--as Rudy's.

"It is well known that Rudy, along with many millions of other catholics are at odds which much of the tenets of their 2000 year old faith."

So why isn't it possible Obama disagrees with some of the tenets of his church? You're using a double standard: Rudy doesn't have to agree, but Obama does?!?

"Rudy was born into catholicism. While Obama, as an adult..."

What bullshit, as if Rudy couldn't "choose" what church to be a part of today. Again, a double standard.

"Let me stress that -- Obama, as an adult, could..."

Just as Rudy, as an adult, could.

"So why are you holding Obama to a different standard just because of the color of his skin?"

I'm not. You are.

"I am 100% behind what Lisa said. Lokisfur is way too far gone."

He's a frickin' loon! And as I said, we aren't helping him by giving him more opportunity to continue his illogical, twisted, factually manipulated posts when we respond to him. Don't read his madness, ignore it.

As Ray stated yesterday....if we want a good look into a criminal mind, just read Bowa's posts for a glimpse of how they think and how they operate. Completely intellectually dishonest.

I am dead serious when I say he's one out of touch lunatic who shouldn't be walking the streets. For his safety and the safety of the rest of us.

""So why are you holding Obama to a different standard just because of the color of his skin?""

Because Bowa is a racist. That's why. It's obvious after his posts on this thread.

Bowa doesn't have Rudy to talk about anymore so he is making guilt by association charges against Obama, when the truth is that the church in question is guilty of nothing but a long-standing pride in their difficult history.

What surprises me about Obama's deeply felt religion is that so many so-called atheists forgive him his minor fantasy of talking to an "invisible man in the sky", as they would say, so..... eagerly.

"Obama's church on the other hand embraces racism and segregation as central to their Christian faith."

You, sir, are a liar pure and simple.

I suspect you are also someone who reads the chapter summary in a textbook and believes they have mastered the content. Actually, its probably even worse that that given that all you did was read the Table of Contents and thought you actually knew something.

Disgraceful.

"Obama's church on the other hand embraces racism and segregation as central to their Christian faith."

Not to beat a dead JACKASS any more than one hasta but fer cripes sake Bowa... are you DRUNK on yer vacation? Wot freakin' time is it where you are?

The Church that Obama and Oprah both attend in Chicago is neither racist nor segregationist.

You just keep repeating the biggest lies over and over again no matter how many times you have your nose shoved in the truth.

Do you think blog-world is really that STUPID?!

Try yer racist routine over at the local KKK meeting or at Little Green Footballs or sommat.

This is the RETORT, ya addlepated fool!

On the one hand, folks like Bowa are always congratulating Bill Cosby for going around in the black community and saying how they oughta take the concept of family and church much more seriously.

Trinity, the church that Obama attends, preaches that message 24/7 all year round.

Now it's a bad thing?

Churches from America have done wonderful work in Africa over the years. When a white church does it it's not racism but when Trinity says helping out those in need in Africa is part of their mission statement it's suddenly RACIST?!

Are you MAD?! Do you RAVE?!

Now, why don't you startle blog-world with the stunning admission that back in 1984 Barack's Pastor went to Africa on a trip with Louis Farrakhan and then try to say that that proves that Barack is an anti-semite like Louis XIV (The mad king)?

Or are you waiting for the Retort's other resident racebaiter aka Tiny Johnson to bring it up so you can act all suprised and say "I never heard THAT before, tell me more!"

Yer pathetic.

If there's a pool where yer vacationing Spud suggest you go over to it and dunk yer head a couple of times and then give yer head a real good shake.

Try to get the metal balls back in all three holes.

SHEESH!

Un-frellin'-believable, you are!

Be Well.

What bullshit, as if Rudy couldn't "choose" what church to be a part of today. Again, a double standard.

Danforth, The only double standard is by you who seeks to compare "racism" to the catholic Church's beliefs as on birth control.

And yes Rudy could choose to belong to another church -- But catholicism is as much a part of his cultural and familial background as it is his religion. So one can at least understand why a non-religious person like Rudy would choose to not chance his denomination.

On the other hand, Obama has no Christianity at all in his familial background -- only atheism and Islam.

Obama became a Christian as an adult -- and he chose to belong to the Trinity church -- in fact, the pastor Rev. Jeremiah Wright of the trinity church who draws much if his inspiration and rhetoric from the racist and segregationist "Black liberation theology" of the 1960's, had so much of an impact on Obama's world view that he named his book "The audacity of hope" after one of the pastors sermons.

So I say again, Besides the fact that if a white candidate belonged to a church which made the white race central to their faith, as Obama's church makes the black race, and there would be cries from most americans calling him a "neo-nazi" and a "Klansmen", I have two questions for Obama.

1st, Where in the Bible does Jesus say Christians should segregate their followers by race. And 2nd, How can you say you will be a President who represents all Americans fairly and equally regardless, of race, creed, gender, or religion when you belong to a church which makes such a definitive doctrinal commitment to one race and Africa and never mentions any similar commitment to the equality of all races?

I'm not. You are.

Sorry danforth. Comparing the overt "racism" by Obama's to the Catholic belief on "when life begins" doesn't cut it.

If a white candidate belonged to a church which made the white race central to their faith, as Obama's church makes the black race, you would be calling him a "neo-nazi" and a "Klansmen" and rightly so.

On the other hand, Obama has no Christianity at all in his familial background -- only atheism and Islam.


But you're not bigoted, oh no.

You're the same bigot that was arguing(incorrectly) that Obama was somehow Muslim, and indoctrinated a such.

As though that's a terrible thing.

Bowa doesn't have Rudy to talk about anymore so he is making guilt by association charges against Obama, when the truth is that the church in question is guilty of nothing but a long-standing pride in their difficult history.

Pride? That's the understatement of the year. That's like saying david Duke just has a long-standing pride in his "aryan" history.

What a pathetic joke that is.

You're the same bigot that was arguing(incorrectly) that Obama was somehow Muslim, and indoctrinated a such.

Alex, I am neither a bigot, or racist. I abhorr racism in all its forms. And I find it incredibly disturbing that Obama would belong to such an overtly racist and segregationist church. As someone who grew up in an almost entirely black neighborhood, I know first hand that a black person can have pride in their culture without having to make their race and a loyalty ot africa central to their christian faith.

I believe in and support those who embrace integration and a "color blind" society where race is irrelevant and a person is judged not by the color of their skin but the content of their character. And Obama's church is the antithesis of that.

Nor have I told anything but the truth about Obama's background. I have never said he was "indocrtrinated" as a muslim. And you are lying when you accuse me of that.

I have said that Obama was well aware of Muslim culture growing up -- that is because Obama's father and stepfather were both muslims (though both were non-religious and possibly atheist) and Obama spent his early years in a predominately muslim country -- his mother was an atheist. That's is the truth -- and you can "spin" it however you want.

Announcement:

I am not going to read or respond to Bowa on this subject.

We have heard it for a week now.

There is nothing there except typical Republican double standards.

Bowa is a fool.

I have never said he was "indocrtrinated" as a muslim. And you are lying when you accuse me of that.



You went on for days saying that Obama was officially muslim because of his father. As if it matters at all, you bigot!

And you ran with the madrassa story too.

Lying.

Bigot.

Propagandist.

But you're not bigoted, oh no.

Alex, Why would pointing out that Obama's immediate family (his father, stepfather, mother) were atheist or muslim?

Are you suggesting that Obama's familial history be hid like you are suggesting that his connection to a racist and segrtegationist church be downplayed?

I have said that Obama was well aware of Muslim culture growing up -- that is because Obama's father and stepfather were both muslims (though both were non-religious and possibly atheist) and Obama spent his early years in a predominately muslim country -- his mother was an atheist.

WHO GIVES A SHIT?

You only bring this up to slime and smear Obama, because you think he can beat rudy, right arugula boy?

Oooh, atheists and Muslims! Hide under the bed, Mr KinderKondom.

You've been attmepting to smear Obama for a year now, directly or by association to "scary" things like atheism or Islam while pretending to be "moderate" about it.

Go fuck yourself.

Alex, Why would pointing out that Obama's immediate family (his father, stepfather, mother) were atheist or muslim?

Why point it out at all? Oh yeah, cuz you're trying to scare people into not voting for him with guilt by association. How moderate.

You're trasparent, and disgusting.

Pride? That's the understatement of the year. That's like saying David Duke just has a long-standing pride in his "Aryan" History.

What a pathetic joke that is.

~Bowa

No, Bowa, the only pathetic joke around here is you.

Shitheads like David Duke aren't dangerous, stupid assclowns because they are proud of their Euro Heritage rather they are dangerous stupid assclowns because they tend to identify themselves more by who they hate than by who they are.

David Duke hated Black Folk and Jewish Folk and he let that hatred define him.

Trinity, the Church that Obama belongs to, is only in existence because of asshole racists like David Duke and YOU.

The congrgation at Trinity are proud of their African heritage and make a pledge to try and help out in Africa which, ya gotta admit, is a place that needs all the help it can get.

They are NOT racists.

They are NOT segregationists.

They are real Christians trying to act on the words of Christ and not just make sanctimonious noises on a Sunday.

They are real Christians unlike the 70 million evDEVILicals in the US who have wedded their faith to immoral agendas and to the military.

Get that through yer thick skull and quit making a jackass out of yerself continually.

Be Well.

Does ANYONE here, after a year of unfair and lying smears on Obama, believe that Bowa is bringing up his muslim past to innocently inform?

Give it a rest.

You went on for days saying that Obama was officially muslim because of his father. As if it matters at all, you bigot! And you ran with the madrassa story too.

I never went with the "madrassa" story so that is a lie. Nor did I ever say Obama was "officially muslim" which suggests that I said he was a practicing muslim. In fact, I said nothing of the sort -- not even close.

I said that under "sharia" law Obama would be considered an "Apostate" and subject to execution because his father was a muslim (and was buried as a muslim) and Obama had chosen to reject the religion of his father and convert to Christianity as as an adult.

Amd that is all true.

What saddens me and disturbs me however is that in converting to Christianity -- Obama chose to belong to a racist and segregationist church which makes race central to the tenets of their faith.

Sitdown was right.

It's like dealing with a broken record of a bad song.

Why point it out at all?

Maybe because he's made his personal story central to his campaign.

Duh.

I said that under "sharia" law Obama would be considered an "Apostate" and subject to execution because his father was a muslim (and was buried as a muslim) and Obama had chosen to reject the religion of his father and convert to Christianity as as an adult.


Who cares?

Really, who gives a good god damn shit?

The congrgation at Trinity are proud of their African heritage and make a pledge to try and help out in Africa which, ya gotta admit, is a place that needs all the help it can get. They are NOT racists.
They are NOT segregationists.

LOL

yeah, whatever spud. I'll remember that the next time the pastor rails against the "United States of Whiter America" -- try spinning your bullshit for someone else -- I know first hand the difference between pride in one's heritage and racism -- and Obama's church crosses the line. Bigtime.

I notice that nobody here has said that they would defend a white candidate who belonged to a church that stated emphatically on their website that "We are a congregation which is Unashamedly White and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the White religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an Aryan people, and remain "true to our European roots". A Church that goes on to proclaim, "The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to...a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO OUR ARYAN HOMELANDS".

So please spare me all the namecalling, deflections, and histrionics.

Racism is wrong.

Obama has some explaining to do. If not now. In the general election.

"Comparing the overt "racism" by Obama's to the Catholic belief on "when life begins" doesn't cut it."

Who mentioned "when life begins"? I was referring to the RC Church's stance against condoms in the most AIDS-infested part of the world. Why can't you debate without assigning bogus positions?

"I abhorr racism in all its forms"

You are a racist of the worst possible kind. One who doesn't have the balls to confront face on, but rather insidiously, by stealth. One who slanders and obfuscates with little or no knowledge of the reality of the situation, and no desire whatsoever to enlighten yourself.

I have given you my take on Trinity and Wright as one who has attended services there, heard Wright speak, and has friends who are members. You couldn't even mount an intelligent response.

I have posted articles and links to stories written by independent Christian publications which and others which talk about what "afro-centric" really means in action. (Clue: one of the key tenets is that Blacks need to stop waiting for a handout/up from somebody else and take responsibility for themselves, their families, black crime, etc.) You couldn't even mount an intelligent response.

All you can do is keep posting the same couple of bullet points (that you clearly don't even understand) over and over and over and over. Nothing to support your absurd contentions, no articles, no first-hand experiences, nada, zip, zilch.

So I have no more to say to you on the subject. Your perfidy is between you, your conscience, and your maker.

Lokisfur continues to lie out of His ass continuously. Why am I NOT Suprprised. He has no Intellectual Honesty nor a Respectable Reputation here at the retort. You know what the "Guy" said to Me in an email He said that He was more respected than I bwhahahahahaha That is so fucking Hilarious. Least I don't go around lying My ass off. Too fucking funny dat Be bwhahahahahahah

Larry Mohr

Really, who gives a good god damn shit?

Jihadists mainly. If Obama did become President and the "great satan" was then being led by of all things an "apostate" -- then that would be an even greater motivator for them to hate the US. Not that they need much motivation.

And if you remember, I even argued at the time, it might be a good thing, because all the Lefties who agree and support the Jihadists hatred of the US because of their shared hatred of Bush would never be able to understand or agree with a hatred of Obama just because he failed to remain a muslim -- even though his father and stepfather weren't even religious.

"I notice that nobody here has said that they would defend a white candidate who belonged to a church that stated emphatically on their website that "We are a congregation which is Unashamedly White and Unapologetically Christian..."

One last PS. If you'd bother to do even a minimal amount of research on the development and role of religion in African-American heritage you would know what a ridiculous comparison that is. But that wouldn't fit in with your agenda, now would it?

Obama is NO Apostate Lokisfur Continue to lie Your ass off and I will be here to correct You. QUIT LYING

Larry Mohr

"And yes Rudy could choose to belong to another church -- But... (insert standard Rudy apologism and/or double standard here).

So again, Obama is held responsible for what his church espouses, but Rudy gets a pass.

What a transparent hypocrite.

I have given you my take on Trinity and Wright as one who has attended services there, heard Wright speak, and has friends who are members. You couldn't even mount an intelligent response.

Good for you san. Frankly, I had the same feeling about you. You could not even mount an intelligent response as to why just by swiching the words "black" with "white" and 'africa" with Aryan" you would find one church a model of integration and inclusiveness and another church completely racist.

I have a different experience with "primarily black churches" vs "racist, segregationist churches" and based on the comments that pastor wright has made, the tenets of black liberation theology which he points to as formative, and of course the overt racist segreagtionist comments on their website -- the trinity Church is the former not the latter.

You are a racist of the worst possible kind.

Meaning of course that I am not a racist at all and do not believe in a double standard on race as you espouse. It seem by supporting that which the tirnity church espouses you are just seeking to continue the racism and segregation that has done such harm to this "United States of America" and not as pastor Wright calls it so derisively and divisively the "United Whiter States of America"

So I have no more to say to you on the subject. Your perfidy is between you, your conscience, and your maker.

Same to you. It must make you feel so good about yourself to walk around and just view everyone through the prism of race -- and judging them accordingly. The democrats sure have'nt changed much since 1860.

So again, Obama is held responsible for what his church espouses, but Rudy gets a pass. What a transparent hypocrite.

Danforth, you are the transparent, lying and "cherry picking" hypocrite. How does Rudy get a pass? Does he belong to a racist, segregationist church? hardly.
The catholic church is a model of integration with millions of people of all races and cultures belonging to it. For your to make some idiotic strawman to compare the racism and segregation that Obama's church espouses with "birth control" tells me that you know you've lost the moral high ground in this argument. racism is wrong. plain and simple.

As for why Obama is held responsible for what his church believes -- get this through your brain -- Obama became a Christian as an adult -- and he could have chosen any church to belong to , BUT he chose to belong to the Trinity church -- in fact, the pastor Rev. Jeremiah Wright who draws much of his inspiration and rhetoric from the racist and segregationist "Black liberation theology" of the 1960's, had so much of an impact on Obama's world view that he named his book "The audacity of hope" after one of the pastors sermons.

So I think one can make a compelling argument that of all the candidates with the exception of Huckabee, Obama's church informs his world view more then anyone else.

So he has some explaining to do.

And to those who are interested in the truth about the claim that Muslims will view Obama as an apostate, that is another patently false and absurd claim.

My partner is from Indonesia (yes, that very same Indonesia where Obama attended school). Although he is Catholic, his father and brothers are Muslim. So I have it on very good authority that Muslims do not consider a child to be a Muslim just because one or both parents are.

To become a Muslim you must desire to become one and pray the Shahada - roughly equivalent to a combination of the Christian profession of faith and Apostle's Creed.

So again, to those of you who tend to read the table of contents and think you are a subject matter expert, think again. Better still - learn something.

So sad Lokisfur is sinking lower and lower before He is through He will have dug a hole for Himself so deep He will be on the other side of the world before He knows it. Unbelievable.

Larry Mohr

My partner is from Indonesia (yes, that very same Indonesia where Obama attended school). Although he is Catholic, his father and brothers are Muslim. So I have it on very good authority that Muslims do not consider a child to be a Muslim just because one or both parents are.

Don't you mean have "on very good authority" that Muslims IN INDONESIA "do not consider a child to be a Muslim just because one or both parents are." And even then it is too diverse a population to make such a blanket statement about indonesia and by extension all muslims in the entire world.

I stand by my comment that to the Jihadists that adhere to the draconian sharia law that puts apostates to death, Obama would be considered an apostate.

How low can He go how low can He go. bwhahahahaha

Larry Mohr

I stand by my comment that to the Jihadists that adhere to the draconian sharia law that puts apostates to death, Obama would be considered an apostate.

Which faith are you saying he is a member of? Muslim or this Trinity church?

"I stand by my comment..."

As in so many other instances where you stood by your ill conceived and uninformed comments.

How funny that one who has absolutely NO first hand experience with any of these things knows so very much. Why you must have reread that table of contents a whole lot.

LOL!

Obama's reaction to Trinity's points?:

Obama said it was important to understand the document as a whole rather than highlight individual tenets. "Commitment to God, black community, commitment to the black family, the black work ethic, self-discipline and self-respect," he said. "Those are values that the conservative movement in particular has suggested are necessary for black advancement.

"So I would be puzzled that they would object or quibble with the bulk of a document that basically espouses profoundly conservative values of self-reliance and self-help ... ."

In his published memoirs, Obama said even he was stopped by Trinity's tenet to disavow "middleclassness" when he first read it two decades ago in a church pamphlet. The brochure implored upwardly mobile church members not to distance themselves from less fortunate Trinity worshipers.

"As I read it, at least, it was a very simple argument taken directly from Scripture: `To whom much is given much is required,'" Obama said in the interview.

But Obama scoffed at the suggestion that Trinity espouses a value system that seeks to help blacks exclusively. "If I say to anybody in Iowawhite, black, Hispanic or Asianthat my church believes in the African-American community strengthening families or adhering to the black work ethic or being committed to self-discipline and self-respect and not forgetting where you came from, I don't think that's something anybody would object to.

It's like a man looking at a woman. Ass men. Tit men. High cheekbone men. What aspect of Mr. Obama's program and/or persona attracts libertarian independents, or the like, since aside from some salient point that isn't obvious, there does not seem to be any connection?

Posted by Johnson


None, Outside of a Democratic platform to leave Iraq. Or perhaps its the repeal of the Patriot Act.

Either way, the draw to the Republican Ticket was blown to smithereens by the last administration. The "Smaller Government" candy Republicans used to get me in the van turned out to be the Patriot Act and a massive increase in government spending.

Now my butt hurts, I got no candy, and I'm locked in a van being driven over the edge of an economic disaster chasing the plunge of my once almighty dollar.

So tell me, what are my options?

If nothing else, with Obama I can close my eyes and pretend I'm voting for change...If he accomplishes even a semblance of the transparency he is promising I'll call it a win.

"even a semblance ... I'll call it a win."

Posted by GustoGus


Bon chance.

"Obama became a Christian as an adult "

And Rudy remained a Catholic as an adult. Bowa's Double Standard strikes again.

"For your to make some idiotic strawman to compare the racism and segregation that Obama's church espouses with "birth control" tells me that you know you've lost the moral high ground in this argument. racism is wrong. plain and simple."

You're a laugh. I wasn't comparing racism vs. decrying condoms (although it's hardly an issue of "birth control" when so many are dying). I was pointing out how you hold Obama responsible for his church, but you don't hold Rudy responsible for his church, and how that makes you a hypocritical two-faced partisan hack.

a hypocritical two-faced partisan hack - Danforth.

Neat definition of Bowa in 6 words or less.

Applies to Romney, Giuliani, Huckabee and others, to.