This is great, and will the voters take note of the Democrat Party worrying so about the rights of terrorists?

So much to do, so little time. They've yet to pass a budget, yet to pass any of the seven major appropriations bills, yet to deal with the Alternative Minimum Tax, and--in case nobody's noticed--it's the second week of December, and the Dems are working 3 days a week.

Excuse my skepticism if I'm a lack confidence they'll get around to learning why some bureaucrats at the CIA can't find a bunch of tapes.

Hey Right,

The reason the CIA can't find the tapes is CAUSE THEY DESTROYED THEM.

They were asked not to and they did anyway.

Now why do you think they did?

the Democrat Party worrying so about the rights of terrorists?

A point of inquiry:

Were you being sarcastic?

Or are you that fucking stoopid?

These threads crack me up with the obvious:

"CIA Destroys Interrogation Tapes"

duh

"Democrats Want Probe of Tape Destruction"

duh

It'd be news if it was otherwise!

The Democrats also wanted or actually demanded copies of Bush & Cheney's White House emails.
Tough talking Sen.Leahy promised to prosecute them if they didn't immediately turn over those emails.The final result: No White House emails were ever turned over and "backbone challenged" Leahy's flimsy threats collapsed like a house of cards!
Expect a similiar gutless "charade" with the CIA tapes!

The democrats want this and the democrats want that. The only thing they don't want is to do any real work that means anything to the lives of ordinary people.

You can't spend all your time in congress trying to satisfy Moveon.org and Barbara Streisand and think the american people won't notice.

This has to be the worst congress in american history!

will the voters take note of the Democrat Party worrying so about the rights of terrorists?

*sigh*

Will the voters take note of the Democrat Party worrying so about the rights of American citizens - American citizens who elect representatives to make sure the Government doesn't overstep it's authority? The problem is not what the tapes may or may not have contained - the problem is that the CIA has a legal obligation to tell certain people that they existed - and they lied - and to turn them over - and they destroyed them instead. Why is stuff like this so hard for Republicans to understand? Just obey the law. Obey the law. Obey the law. Obey the law.


Besides, I think maybe we should view this revelation in context of the new Iran NIE. Publicizing the findings of the Iran NIE undercut the administrations policy re. attacking Iran, publicizing this apparent obstruction of Justice will undermine some of Bush's extralegal tactics in the "GWOT". Obviously, the CIA knew what the reaction would be to this revelation, it may be that they did it specifically to rid themselves of Bush loyalists that they feel are undermining their efforts to protect the country.

This has to be the worst congress in american history!

Posted by YouKnewWho

Maybe after the 2001,2002,2003,2004,2005, and 2006 classes

Care to tell us what GREAT legislation they passed?

(Don't include the Medicare Prescription Drug Plan which makes it illegal for the U.S. Government to get the same price as a company of 40)

They did manage to increase the Federal Budget by 40%. Guess you don't want to pay taxes to pay it do you?

"This has to be the worst congress in american history!"

Doesn't matter...we'll reelect 98% of them next year. THEN we'll blame the new president for all the country's ills after he/she has been in office for 90 days. How stupid can we be?

Well at least the CIA still remembers part of their job is to keep secrets....to bad the Dems are too busy playing politics to remember that.

"Well at least the CIA still remembers part of their job is to keep secrets....to bad the Dems are too busy playing politics to remember that."

Posted by foshaffer

Valerie Plame

Too bad the forshaffer is too busy playing politics to remember that.

Hans

How stupid can we be?

Posted by jestgettinalong

How stupid can SOME of us be? 2004 reelection of Bush

"Care to tell us what GREAT legislation they passed?"

Look...let 'em investigate the non existant tapes for Chrissakes. It'll keep 'em from doing anything REALLY destructive the rest of the term.

"How stupid can SOME of us be? 2004 reelection of Bush"

Are you REALLY serious. You expected that I would vote for Kerry??? You and your little friends keep nominating candidates like Kerry, Gore, Mondale, Dukakis and the like and what do you THINK we're gonna do at election time. C'mon...give us a decent choice. I voted for JFK, LBJ and lots of democrats in local elections. Bredesen, democrat governor here in TN, I voted for him...but those presidential candidates y'all nominate are way too far out.

Valerie Plame - the only CIA agent the Left liked.

Oh...she wasn't a field agent? Huh.

Everyone knew she was with the CIA because she put it on her WEB SITE! Now that's the way to keep a secret!

"Everyone knew she was with the CIA because she put it on her WEB SITE! Now that's the way to keep a secret!"

Of course you have a link for this.

Or do we attribute this to desperate lies?

PUoSU.

Hans

Foshaffer got caught lying again?

"Foshaffer got caught lying again?"

Yav, I am anxious to see his "proof" that Valerie Plame had a "WEB SITE", and that she disclosed her employment with the CIA on it.

Hans

It'll be a long wait, Hans. I'll check back in the morning!

The Dems didn't know about the videotaped interrogations until it was found out the tapes were destroyed.

This didn't become an issue until it was found out that the tapes were destroyed illegally by the CIA? Damned Dems trying to keep the system in check, trying to make sure that the best country ever has a clean, friendly, ethical image.

That's what the terrorists want.

Friendliness is for wussies.

Let's stay dirty and keep flexing our nuts in everyone's face. That's what being Amerrican and being the best (like Donald Trump) is all about!

You know with Our low approval rating in the world and espeially with the Middle East things like this don't help matters any, I am refering to the destruction of the video tapes and NOT the investigation into it. Had the CIA not have tortured the detainees and treated them with dignaty it would have went a long way into rehabilitating our shattered image but since the CIA have resorted to using torture we have added YEARS into the rehabilitation of our shattered image.

Larry Mohr

Ironic that the Dems seem to want to Probe things that arn't there anymore. The Repubs are just happy with probing the pages. I realize they have a job that only a certain type of person would want, but lord can't we find someone who's not a sick perverted crook to represent us?

ZULU cracks me up when he starts making up shit like his post at the top.

You so FUN-NY! And to think last week I was referring to you as a paid shill! Man, was I mistaken!

FOSHAFFER, no one except you believes anything you type. You are a proven liar. After this, I won't comment on anything you type, and I urge other DR'ers to ignore this troll.

The reason the CIA can't find the tapes is CAUSE THEY DESTROYED THEM.

Posted by Dragnlady

and......... what they did was legal. Lets investigate every leagl act the reps did in the last 7 years and forget to clean up the house and senate. By the way, it looks like Nancy has let the pages go wild. Lets get rid of her now.

Sammy,

Instead of Her Web Site I meant to type on A Web Site.

There was an artical written by Joe Corn called "Huberis" that a portion was posted prior to printing. (and after as well)

"In fact, it appears Plame was first outed to the general public as a result of a consciously loaded and slyly hypothetical piece by the journalist David Corn. Corn's source appears to have been none other than Plame's own husband, former ambassador and current Democratic-party operative Joseph Wilson' - Washington Times

But none the less - you wouldn't listen to anything anyone has to say anyways - "a man hears what they want to hear and disregards the rest"

Plame was blown out of proportion to try to get Bush and Cheney - it did not work and resulted in only sending a good guy to jail.

Most of the time in these pages you (and others) villify the CIA - yet when it becomes politically expediant to support them - you are all for them. (they destroyed the tapes, they torture) br />

Ignore me if you wish..I would expect no more from the left. A group that declares that it is against Facisim....as long as you agree with them

Yah. Well. Anyone that tortures is a fascist. The CIA tortures, they are fascist. Bush permits that, he's a fascist.

Now, you have a perfect right to disagree with me. The difference is there's no scenario I torture you because you're not me.

I think those tapes were destroyed to keep the children of these CIA torturers from reacting in disgust to what their daddies do for a living, come that day when they discover they do have consciences whereas their parents do not.

Of course you have a link for this.

Or do we attribute this to desperate lies?

Hans

I don't know about that but........ What parking lot, behind a guarded gate, did she park in every day?

Do I need a link for this????

OK so call me a conspiricy lover, but I dont think we would have quite as many torture, and torture cover up lovers as we currently see here if not for FOX TV and their celebration of torture as a plot device that works well.

The promo goes something like this:

"Jack Bauer aint gonna let no law against torture stop him from scalding/skinning/ electrocuting some 'Merica hater with black hair and a unibrow. Jack likes torture and you will too." See it on FOX tonight at 8:00.

Sniper,et.al, believe "24" is a documentary and if torture is a good enough plot device for FOX TV its good enough for our current puddle of coverup lovin torture apologists here in the land of retort.
Once again, Fox forwards the right wing neocon agenda.
They should be registered as a lobby organization.

Sniper jumps to the old "forget that the CIA says over and over, that she was covert. She parked in a spot he thinks she shouldnt and that is the REAL determining factor of covert status", deflection.

Dude, you really must be as stoopid as you sound.

old, how thick is your skull? How covert can you be when you drive to the CIA building every day to go to work? She may have been covert before but it would seem logical that if you are seen going to the CIA building every day you just might work there?

Dude, you really must be as stoopid as you sound. to use your own words.

Plame was blown out of proportion to try to get Bush and Cheney - it did not work and resulted in only sending a good guy to jail.

~Foshafter

Wow how many ways can one moron go wrong in a single sentence?

Let Spud count the ways.

First off, the Valerie Wilson Plame affair wasn't "blown outta proportion" it was, in fact, another outrage suppressed by the treasonous fuck-sticks of BushCo. Bush and Cheney didn't merely "try to get" Wilson and his Wife they effectively destroyed two careers, all for daring to speak truth to powerful liars.

Secondly, Scooter Libby wasn't "sent to jail". Scooter Libby will never see a day of jailtime due to the ass-covering War Criminals at BushCo.

Thirdly, Scooter wasn't a "good guy" as you purport.
He was a traitor to his country along with Cheney and Rove and Robert Novak and Dick Armitage.

Wot else ya got fer us this morning?

Everyone knew she was with the CIA because she put it on her WEB SITE!

Holy Crap! Bwa haha hah hah hah hah hah ha ha ha.

Phew!

* Spud is wipe a couple hundred tears of laughter out of his many eyes after THAT *

Man, are you a prime example of wot Spud likes to call sheeple!

Too much!

Be Well.

THEN we'll blame the new president for all the country's ills after he/she has been in office for 90 days. How stupid can we be?

Not on THIS page...The libs will NEVER find anything to criticize The Hildabeast!

How covert can you be when you drive to the CIA building every day to go to work?

~Snippy

And how do you know she drove up "to the CIA building every day to go to work"?

Did you follow her as she took the off-ramp to that building in Langley, Virginia?

Did you take a camera so you could document her entering the CIA building?

If ya did Spud would sure be interested in seeing them shots.

Tell ya wot. Just fer giggles, why don't you try driving up the CIA building and photographing who's coming in and going out of there.

Spud bets ya dollars to donuts that you would find the inevitable results of such actions "instructive", to say the least.

* Spud smiles quietly to hisself at the mental image there *

Be Well.

Not on THIS page...The libs will NEVER find anything to criticize The Hildabeast!

~Lightsonbutnobodyhome

So ya think that the left are about as blinded by party loyalty as the right?

Wow, are you stupid!

Here's the essential difference between a lefty and a righty.

A Righty sez "My Country- Right or Wrong"

A Lefty sez "My country- when Right to be kept Right, when Wrong to be put Right"

It's a subtle difference but Spud is think it an important one nonetheless.

Of course, Spud is an 8 1/2 inch tall talking potato and largely a figment of imagination (and a Canadian figment at that) so ya might just wanna disregard all that zany logic/ morality stuff.

^_^

Be Well.

You would think the best way to be covert is to be overt IE Being out in plain sight but not draw attention to oneself. If one goes to a building everyday do we know what they are doing inside of that building???

Larry Mohr

Andrea - Fascism: A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition.

So 1) Torture is not a mark of Facism UNLESS it is directed at the government opposition. Torturing in itself is not Facist. We live in reality where there are people that do not care for any "laws" and are out to kill us. They are not necessarily part of any government. To put them in highly stressful situations in order to protect our citizens is EXACTLY what the constitution ask for. "To provide for the common defense"

2) Lets take a look at which side meets the definition of Fascism. Who wants centralized authority? - The republicans want each state to decide what to do on Abortion, each Citizen to decide what to do with Health care, and each citizen to decide where to spend their income instead of taking the money from them to send to the central government.

Hillary, Obama and Edwards want to Mandate Centralized Health care, allow indescriminate abortion (mandated by the state), redistribution of wealth (mandated by the state). In addition in Science if you question Global Warming or Evolution (which the fossil record does not support)your teaching or research license needs to be revoked.

The "political Correctness" and "hate Crimes" limiting freedom of speech are all hallmarks of the liberal side....so I think you relook at who is really "facist".

"redistribution of wealth (mandated by the state)"

If you don't know that's going on right now, under the guise of the Income Tax code, you're not paying attention.

Of course it's a class war. I should know...I'm winning.

"Evolution (which the fossil record does not support)"

*sigh*

Another idiot who couldn't pass a high-school test, but wants to ponticate on all things scientific.

OK Snipe, I'm wrong, the head of the CIA is wrong, the Republican Special Prosecuter is wrong, The trial judge is wrong, the jury was wrong and,
and, and, you are right.
Fine by me, continue your own little game of 'he who defines the terms wins". The rest of us aint playin. We kinda like reality, but you go ahead and codify the parking plan for the CIA so next time the administration wants to out a covert agent who is working on Iran WMDs there wont be any confussion.

I've read so many learned defenses of torture i could recite them in may sleep.

Hung up on the word "fascist"? Try "evil"---Repeat after me and Captain America: "Evil people torture".

Never good people. Never.

What a laugh. There were Dems who were informed about it in advance, now they want an investigation. Maybe they just for once investigate their own incompetence.

Oops, could not happen as they can never look into a mirror and admit they have 'f***ed up (they are not capable of recognizing their own failures, it is always someone else's fault).

Expect a similiar gutless "charade" with the CIA tapes!

Posted by AntiCadillac at 2007-12


yeah.....and just read the post just above this one
I havent heard yet that some dems knew in advance but I am sure that is a media thing that you have to dig deep to get to.....

another thing I expected was a complete bush bashing here and it didnt come through that way......well completely.........it was nice to hear that harriet myers had told them Not to do away with tapes......I knew then that I wouldnt have to read all of the bullshit about THAT and bush.

it was BORING enough to hear biden yesterday on little george's show blaming bush for the high gas prices......

I too enjoy probing. But, when are any of the fucking Republocrats going to get off their ass and protect the best interests of the American people?

Instead, secret meetings and prolonged investigations provide cover and delay for fraud and thievery for the well connected. How well connected? How about Secretary of the Treasury Paulson, former CEO of Goldman Sachs, the only investment bank unscathed by mortgage fraud.

The only way they could have emerged unscathed was to bet short on the subprime securities. To make such a bet one would have to understand the true value of those securities. To know their true value and peddle them to little old ladies is fraud, a crime subject to imprisonment and forced buyback of the nearly worthless securities.

What to do? Pretend you are bailing out borrowers, rewrite the terms of their loans and in the process fix the paperwork fraud. Only the well connected deserve a get out of jail free card. As usual make the taxpayers eat the losses through deposit insurance et al, so that the Banks don't have to declare bankruptcy.

Republocrats going to get off their ass and protect the best interests of the American people?


well lets see......we can start with something that the press NEVER or rarely talks about.....I would say that NOT ONE ATTACK ON US SINCE 9/11 would be in the best interest of the american people.....of course thats your cue......as in the media.....to say ANYTHING to disavow that accomplishment......

but look........the pres said NOT to destroy it...
the state department said NOT to destroy it.....
so who do they go after......all of the dem machines are all set for the white house....what if they uncover a plot to discredit the white house deep in the cia? its possible.....

BL2,

Do you understand that a Republocrat can be either a Democrat or a Republican? They cover eachother's butts all the time in order to preserve their fake moral authority to Govern. Worst example being Ollie North and crack cocaine but there are so many others it gives me a headache to think about it.

Al Qaeda attacks are routinely spaced 3-8 years. Terrorist attacks are up sevenfold since 9-11, internationally, or hadn't you noticed that either. By being bellicose Shrub has strengthened both himself and Al Qaeda domestically.

You would think the best way to be covert is to be overt IE Being out in plain sight but not draw attention to oneself. If one goes to a building everyday do we know what they are doing inside of that building???

Posted by LarryMohr

I can't believe you said that. You are a covert spy so you go to the CIA building every day to work but we don't know you work for the CIA? There must be some logic there but it escapes me. Please pull your head out of your hip pocket and read the name on the belt. That's your name lar.

Think about it Sniper how can I remain Covert and not blow My cover?? I would think it would be easy Just blend in and not call attention to Yourself. I bet You if You stood outside of say General Motors and watched the people walking into work You wouldn't know what each one did unless asked them in advance or tapped into the company computer and hacked into the personelle files. Same thing here. If Valerie Plame drove into CIA Headquarters every single day You nor I would know what SHe did there unless We asked. She could be the cleaning crew and You wouldn't know it.

Larry Mohr

Back on topic for a second, the CIA 'decides' it is going to destroy tapes, even against Harriet Myers recommendations, to 'protect' the identity of it's agents. It also lies about having the tapes to our legal system.

Of course this is wrong, how can anyone say that this is not wrong? If the CIA really wanted to 'protect' the identities of the agents, they could have pixelated their faces and distorted their voices. Are you telling me they don't have the technology to do that? I have the technology to do that!

There is something fishy going on, and to protect our country we need to find out. We can't have the CIA indiscriminately destroying things and lying about whether they even have them or not, especially when they are told not to destroy them. I would think this should be obvious.

Well at least the CIA still remembers part of their job is to keep secrets....to bad the Dems are too busy playing politics to remember that.

Posted by foshaffer at 2007-12-08 10:29 PM | Reply |

That would actually be the NSA's job...

Yav, I am anxious to see his "proof" that Valerie Plame had a "WEB SITE", and that she disclosed her employment with the CIA on it.

Hans

Posted by Hans


The proof of her website was on a videotape that the CIA had in holding, along with some tapes about terrorists. Too bad we'll never know the truth now.

I also heard the proof was in writing and was held in the National Archives, right next to some documents about 9/11. I heard Sandy accidentally took those papers and those are gone, too.

What proof? lol

How covert can you be when you drive to the CIA building every day to go to work?


oops! someone is NOT keeping up with the talking points...this one is DOA.


Additionally, after Fox News' America's Newsroom aired Yarmuth's questioning of Plame, Novak appeared and asserted that "the idea that [Plame] was a covert operator working on covert operations when she was going to the CIA building every day is absurd." However, on the October 26, 2005, edition of CNN's The Situation Room, former CIA agent Larry Johnson addressed such claims: "People saying that just demonstrate their further ignorance of the CIA. At least 40 percent of the people driving through those gates every day are undercover."

I too would love to see Sniper taken pictures of the cars entering the CIA building... ya! good luck wid dat! see ya in a few years...

Back on Topic ...oh yeah it is all related! Luv the spin... lets see...

"we didn't want to piss off the Muslims!"

oh not buying that?

err umm we were trying to protect the identities of the CIA Torturers...from the courts

Oh you had to go and bring up Valarie the "fake CIA agent".

oh you say we have libraries of evidence on file that could compromise the ID's of agents and we don't destroy them?

What the hell YOU TRAITOROUS LEFTIES! Always mucking up a good lie with facts!

So 1) Torture is not a mark of Facism UNLESS it is directed at the government opposition. Torturing in itself is not Facist. We live in reality where there are people that do not care for any "laws" and are out to kill us. They are not necessarily part of any government. To put them in highly stressful situations in order to protect our citizens is EXACTLY what the constitution ask for. "To provide for the common defense"


While torture may not be fascism, your statement is. How many law breakers could be described as being unconcerned for the law they were breaking, and might also happen to be murderers.. hmmm.... Somehow the justice system handles them without going apeshit and without torture.


2) Lets take a look at which side meets the definition of Fascism. Who wants centralized authority? - The republicans want each state to decide what to do on Abortion, each Citizen to decide what to do with Health care, and each citizen to decide where to spend their income instead of taking the money from them to send to the central government.


The official posistion of the republican party is to pass a constitutional amendment that would affect all states. And to legislate via the judiciary thru select appointments. States don't get to decide what to do, they get to vote at best. And why is abortion the one issue where republicans don't advocate that the citizen gets to decide? The right to choose is a great right, but all too often republicans rig the game.


Hillary, Obama and Edwards want to Mandate Centralized Health care, allow indescriminate abortion (mandated by the state), redistribution of wealth (mandated by the state). In addition in Science if you question Global Warming or Evolution (which the fossil record does not support)your teaching or research license needs to be revoked.


I can't imagine how you take away said "research licenses" from people that never bothered to get them in the first place. Affixing "Pastor" in front of your name doesn't qualify. I further don't understand why anyone who follows this line of thought never considers whether or not aliens were ever involved. You never see those intelligent design websites making that point. And yet I see no reasoning to disprove it.


The "political Correctness" and "hate Crimes" limiting freedom of speech are all hallmarks of the liberal side....so I think you relook at who is really "facist".


Political correctness isn't a law, and hate crimes laws do not limit speech.

The pornographty of violence.

Hell yeah! Good find AU.

Remember how Spud is always going on and on about how America replaced Mossadegh in Iran and replaced him with the evil Shah. How after years and years of secret police and torture sessions the sick dying Shah came to the US fer medical treatment which lead to the return of the Ayatollah and in large measure lead us to where US/Iranian relations are today? ie. in the dumper?

And how Righty Tighties these days still blindly repeat the talking point that that was all Carters Fault (tm)?

A British consular official told me about an Iranian exile who had gone from Jordan into Iran to try to organize unions. Savak caught him, surgically amputated his arms and legs, and sent his living trunk back to his family in Amman as a warning.

Go ahead. Someone try the ole "Carter's Fault" or "They hate us fer our freedoms" crap on Spud.

Spud dares ya!
Deth double dawg dares ya!!

See also: Saddam Hussein, Pinochet, Noriega, Suharto, etc etc ad nauseum.

And Why?

Not to promote democracy around the world as you've been told but merely to insure a bigger profit margin fer American based multi-nationals.

Anyone who doesn't think the US under Bush hasn't become a stinking Torture State to a degree unparalleled in the country's history has their eyes wide shut.

Think about it.

Be Well.

It was all Carter's fault.

Anyone who doesn't think the US under Bush hasn't become a stinking Torture State to a degree unparalleled in the country's history has their eyes wide shut.


This is not the most torturous period in our country's history.

Aw common jef. You know we have gone from a very prim and proper society under LBJ to a bunch of knuckle draggers under bush.

Never in our prior 200 years have we been so brutal.

This is not the most torturous period in our country's history.

That's not an argument Jeff.

That's merely contradiction.

So yer cuntservantcy has overwhelmed yer Christianity at last has it?

How sad.

Be Well.

So yer cuntservantcy has overwhelmed yer Christianity at last has it?


Nothing of the sort.


You conflate a historical correction with condoning brutality.

I was doing the former, not the latter.

Anyone who doesn't think the US under Bush hasn't become a stinking Torture State to a degree unparalleled in the country's history has their eyes wide shut.


Anyone who would compare torture for pleasure and torture for intel is a fool. If anyone bothered to read this ridiculous article they will see what this hack of a writer is trying to do. It is mind boggling how low the left will go comparing Bush to real sadistic and murdering leaders.

Anyone who would compare torture for pleasure and torture for intel is a fool.

Anyone who compares torture trying to make a case for it to gather intel is much much worse than a fool

"if released, had the potential to do such grave damage to the United States of America,"
Well they will not be released will they.

"But the Iraq war has turned in out favor, at least for now. So it is very important for us to do all we can to undermine this effort and to ensure the admin is blamed."

Rep. Silvestre Reyes, speaking for the left.

"...would be enough to convince the American public we haven't been until now, and don't want to be that kind of country."

Never in our prior 200 years have we been so brutal.

America has tortured before.

In WWII to a limited extent.

Korea.

'Nam certainly.

Under Ray-gun (the blood soaked brain dead corporate meat puppet that some ignorANUSes in the US still think was a pretty good POTUS) the incidence increased. In those incidents America initiated the torture sessions, prepared the questions to be asked, trained the folks who were to do the torture and mostly waited outside the cell while it was going on. Occasionally a CIA officer would come in to see how it was going but fer the most part there was plausible deniability of a kind that recognised that the average American might take moral issue with the evil being done in their names.

Apparently, after reading here at the Tort and around blog-world fer the last few years there are also those "My Country Right or Wrong" types like Mao etc who would have no such compunctions but in the main Spud holds to the notion that the average American would have a problem with it. Ergo it was done far away from home by "trainees" who could be denied like Peter denying Christ if it down came to that.

Fast forward to today.

Dumbya, the corporate meat puppet of Cheney ie Big Oil, the MIC in the US and Israel et al, has now institutionalised torture under the guise of it being neccessaary in the so-called war on terror. He still does the torture outside the country largely for legal reasons but now it is Americans doing the torture. That may not seem like such a big step to some but Spud sees the important difference. There are many States on this earth who torture in large numbers annually. Who have turned it into a matter of state policy. They all pretty much deny that that is wot they do. Sado-Arabia, China, Russia, Iran etc etc ad nauseum.

Now America is no better than it's enemies in many respects. If folk don't think that that is significant then they are essentially immoral ass-wipes by Spud's reckoning.

If you hafta become your enemies in order to defeat yer enemies haven't you already lost wot it is you thought you were fighting for?

Spud asked Walt that question the first time he went to Iraq.

Walt bever got back to Spud.

Spud's still waiting fer a response.

Be Well.

PS: And the Right complain about Moral Relativism on the Left?

At least our relativism is moral.

Jeff, Sniper, Mao et al practise wot Spud calls Immoral Relativism.

Tsk Tsk!

Anyone who compares torture trying to make a case for it to gather intel is much much worse than a fool

Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2007-12-10 02:59 PM

Did you bother to read the article? Have you done any research on the author? BTW if you don't understand the difference between sadism and intel, you are hopeless. Maybe you should look up some of the hideous measures used by the Japanese in WW. I am sure there are many Aussies and Chinese laughing at you and the article.

Anyone who thinks waterboarding is not torture:

Have someone tie you down uncomfortably on your back after a long period tied up to handcuffs tied behind your back with a hood over your head until you're only standing on your tiptoes and feel your rotator cuffs start to pop and hurt like you've never hurt before.

Have them scream at you for awhile, then put a washcloth over your face and let them pour water on your face for a couple of hours - only pulling the washcloth off in the nick of time (for you to get a couple of gasps of air and choke/cough the water in your throat).

After your chest has heaved and you are freaking out with water pouring down your throat as you gasp for air throught the soaked washcloth while you go through the whole thing again - before returning to your hooded handcuffed tiptoe position for another few hours before the third waterboarding experience.

Then get back to us.... It's kind of pointless to argue about 'enhanced interrogation techniques' until you do. Sort of like saying a broken leg doesn't leave you writing in pain until you've broken your own leg.

"But the Iraq war has turned in out favor, at least for now. So it is very important for us to do all we can to undermine this effort and to ensure the admin is blamed."

Rep. Silvestre Reyes, speaking for the left.

POSTED BY SLICKSTERWILLY



Got a source for that?

You conflate a historical correction with condoning brutality.

I was doing the former, not the latter

You did no correcting Jeff you merely contradicted.

Do you now say that you are against the idea of America as a torture state?

That you are against torture as policy?

Or do you still hold to RT party line that what's being done in your name isn't torture or that it is but it's good and neccessary torture?

Do try to make some kind of a point Jeff!

Be Well.

PS: No fair using the top of yer head to do so.

Then get back to us.... It's kind of pointless to argue about 'enhanced interrogation techniques' until you do. Sort of like saying a broken leg doesn't leave you writing in pain until you've broken your own leg.

Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2007-12-10 03:09 PM |
JOC ... What exactly would you do with those captured? How would you obtain information vital to saving lives? Wait them out? Kill them with kindness? Stick a fucking needle in their arm and hope they talk. Why do you pretend to care so much about someone who would kill you and your family in a heartbeat? Are they all innocent? Should we just kill them on the spot in the battlefield? Should we not even capture them at all? BTW would all you crying lefties complain about sleep deprivation? Loud noise? What methods are acceptable to the sniveling left?

You did no correcting Jeff you merely contradicted.


I provided the same amount of subsantiation with my contradiction as you provided with your initial assertion.


Do you now say that you are against the idea of America as a torture state?

I am not sure what you precisely mean by 'torture state'. Nevertheless, I oppose 'torture' (which is not to be confused with aggressive interrogation) in almost all circumstances.


Or do you still hold to RT party line that what's being done in your name isn't torture or that it is but it's good and neccessary torture?

Much of what's being described by the left as torture doesn't constitute torture IMO. I will say that waterboarding constitutes torture, however.


PS: No fair using the top of yer head to do so.

Are you trying to say the I resemble Dan Akroyd and my wife resembles Jane Curtain?

I oppose 'torture' (which is not to be confused with aggressive interrogation) in almost all circumstances.

Yer sheeple, Jeff.

You know not wot you do so Spud is fergive ya.

Also the fact that you are at least reality based enuff to recognise that water-boarding is torture puts you light years ahead of yer party.

In the land of the blinded sheeple the one eyed sheeple is King of the barn-yard.

You are that one eye King, Jeff!

Congrats on being the tallest moral midget in the Righty Tighty room.

Jane Curtain must be so proud of yas!

Be Well.

Sheeple?


Limiting a detainee to 4 hours of sleep per night for a week is not torture.

Keeping a detainee's cell at 60 or 90 degrees fahrenheit is not torture.

Requiring a detainee to stand for 4 hours is not torture.

Playing loud (but not ear-drum damaging) music for hours on end is not torture.

Administering sodium pentathol prior to questioning is not torture.

Heck, a couple of open-hand slaps to the face during questioning is not torture.

Howdy-Do li'l Spudsie Howdy-Do
Howdy-Do li'l Spudsie Howdy-Do
Well ya' think you're UPPER CLASS
But you're just a POMPOUS ASS
Howdy-Do li'l Spudsie Howdy-Do

Just wonerin' ya' ol' BogApple ya'...do ya' ever post any Candianisms about Canada? I have seen that ya' love to knock the U.S. and U.S. citizens as though you're a citizen. Ya' even act like you have a stake in the elections and mention your preferences. Well, ya know, most of us don't give a shit who you like and who ya' don't. We don't REALLY think you're cute either.

"Jeff, Sniper, Mao et al practise wot Spud calls Immoral Relativism."

There's lots more "wot" don't give a shit "WOT" says or thinks!

STREWTH

Also the fact that you are at least reality based enuff to recognise that water-boarding is torture puts you light years ahead of yer party.

idiot. You don't get any part of this pud.

idiot. You don't get any part of this pud.

POSTED BY EBERLY

Well that's enlightening.

"But the Iraq war has turned in out favor, at least for now. So it is very important for us to do all we can to undermine this effort and to ensure the admin is blamed."

Rep. Silvestre Reyes, speaking for the left.

POSTED BY SLICKSTERWILLY



Got a source for that?

POSTED BY ZAP



Didn't think so...

If you hafta become your enemies in order to defeat yer enemies haven't you already lost wot it is you thought you were fighting for?


First off, the US is far more humane with detainees (especially when we take a per capita abuse per detainee ratio) than Islamofascists (a vast majority of their detainees end up missing a head). So, your underlying premise is more of that dreaded 'moral relativism'.

Secondly, guerilla warfare is ALWAYS messier and nastier than conventional warfare (at least in regards to collateral damage).

When Plame was "outed", it ruined her being covert, 'secret'. Dems had to protect her 'secrecy'. Why is this allowed? Where is the special counsel? Why is anyone covert? Her identity had to remain secret, the left claims. So these tapes can't remain a secret? But her identity had too?

Where is the special counsel for the destruction of National Archives, stolen and destroyed by Sandy Berger?

Oh the left doesn't care about this. Trying to score cheap political points. How lame. What a waste of taxpayer money these idiots are.

Krispy sees spuds tater has no eyes.

No eyes has the blindtater, says Krispy, no eyes.

Eyeless taters produce NO little taters. This, says Kispy, is a most good thing!

"Trying to score cheap political points. How lame. What a waste of taxpayer money these idiots are."

I think we can all agree that the $70 million dollars wasted on investigating and impeaching Bill Clinton, for cheap political points, was a waste of taxpayer money.

Thanks for pointing that out, formerlib.

Hans

Hans,
Why the Clinton deflection? I said nothing about him.

"Why the Clinton deflection?"

Clinton deflection? You were the one talking about scoring "cheap political points" and wasting "taxpayer money" in the process.

I agreed. The $70 million dollars wasted on investigating and impeaching Bill Clinton, for cheap political points, was a waste of taxpayer money.

Again, thanks for pointing that out, formerlib.

Hans

Why the Clinton deflection? I said nothing about him.

POSTED BY FORMERLIB

LOL and Valerie Plame and Sandy Berger were not a deflection?

I think we can all agree that the $70 million dollars wasted on investigating and impeaching Bill Clinton, for cheap political points, was a waste of taxpayer money.

Thanks for pointing that out, formerlib.

Hans

Posted by Hans at 2007-12-10 04:46 PM |


Yep. We all know that a man who lies about committing adultry with a barely legal and naive little girl would never lie about anything else.
Integrity is so archaic.

"We all know that a man who lies about committing adultry with a barely legal and naive little girl ..."

That pretty much describes most cheating married men... well, that at least describes most married men's fantasies.

Hans

"We all know that a man who lies about committing adultry with a barely legal and naive little girl would never lie about anything else.
Integrity is so archaic."

But, but, but...Rudy didn't know she was his second cousin!

But, but, but...Rudy didn't know she was his second cousin!

Is it fair to say that Rudy's infidelities and Clinton's infidelities are equal?

"Is it fair to say that Rudy's infidelities and Clinton's infidelities are equal?"

Total marriages for Bill Clinton: 1

Total marriages for the morally challenged, cross-dressing, adulterous, Republican Rudy Giuliani: 3

I report, you decide.

Hans

I report, you decide.

Hans


thanks, but I already knew that.

I asked, you can answer if you want.

Eberly

"I asked, you can answer if you want."

I did answer. Res ipsa loquitur.

Hans

With a deflection.

I take it you think 3 marriages is worse than a lifetime of infidelity in one marriage.

Personally, it doesn't matter to me. I think they are equal as far that goes. I don't care if Clinton was cheating more.

morally challenged, cross-dressing, adulterous, Republican Rudy Giuliani

Clinton hasn't cross-dressed nor changed parties(as far as I know) but you nailed the rest.

"I take it you think 3 marriages is worse than a lifetime of infidelity in one marriage."

Don't you mean:

3 marriages filled with infidelity and divorce is worse than a (media-fed, innuendo-filled, so-called) "lifetime" of infidelity in one marriage, where apparently marriage vows and forgiveness seem to go hand-in-hand.

Hans

no.

very revealing hans.

don't let me get in your way. With your attitude I would rather get in front of a train.

"no."

very revealing eberly.

Hans

All 3 marriages filled with infidelity?

Seriously, I don't know. I know at least 1 was pretty awful.

This will be very interesting if an investigation is done--

Of course they will have to ask Nancy Stretch Pelosi when she knew about the interrogations and what she knew and how about the other Dems or Repubs that knew of the interrogations and what they knew and when.

Should be really interesting...

Murphy

Probe of Tape Destruction


Murphy wants

"ask Nancy Stretch Pelosi when she knew about the interrogations"


Linkage, well none, but any port in a storm..

She was asked two months ago and admitted to knowing about the intel and she was briefed about waterboarding--she knew and didn't say anything then or now--

But let's have an investigation...

Murphy

But let's have an investigation...

Murphy

POSTED BY MURPHY


Works for me.

But what part of "Probe of Tape Destruction' does this tie into?

I'm not sure Water board George would agree with you.

And here are the members of Congress getting briefed and know about all of this --and say nothing--

Murphy as I said I'm with you investigate it all but Bush can't hang his hat on it was on my watch but the crew knew and stood-by...

Then fire them all Zap! What's good for the goose has to be good for the gander..

And that's if tapes were destroyed--and only two?

Wow! Two whole poosible tapes of something no one really knows what was on them!

But let's do an investigation---

Sometimes Biden (Mr. Cheater) comes off sooo dumb --

Murphy

Then fire them all Zap!

Murphy

POSTED BY MURPHY

Very well Murphy you want draw every Dem you can into it but its still comes down to it all happened on Water Board George's watch.

Kiriakou - agent in charge of the "interrogation" calls it torture. He also said the US should not be doing it.

Warfare is torture in itself. If you shoot someone but don't succeed in killing them, maiming them would be considered torture.

So, we must disband the military entirely and disband all police officers in the US, all law enforcement. Disband them all.

For, an action taken could result in torture and therefore must be outlawed and ended. Under no circumstance can there be exceptions that lead to torture, no matter how good the intent.