surge is not working

surrendering to the sunni militias is

surrendering to the sunni militias is

Posted by truthhurts at 2007-11-30 02:03 PM

If that is truly the case, then why didn't Murtha say that? After all, he is one of the war's biggest critics.

Or are you just bitter because your personal political agenda requires that the surge be a failure?

*hands over ears*

surge is not working

surge is not working

surge is not working

surge is not working

surge is not working

surge is not working

surge is not working

surge is not working

surge is not working

I agree that the military portion of the surge is working. But Gen. Petraeus himself said going in that the military aspect was only 20% and the political/diplomatic aspect was 80%.

So assuming that the 20% is 90%successful, that leaves the 80% at about 10% successful. So over all that means the surge is about 26% successful.

Doing math hurts me.

FF for Live or Die.

I also thought that this was significant:

Mr. Murtha said he may be willing to compromise on the timing of a withdrawal if the White House shows some flexibility. He acknowledged that the U.S. military would be unable to handle the logistics of pulling its heavy equipment from Iraq by the end of 2008.

Mr. Murtha's four day-trip took him to a Thanksgiving dinner with troops in Kuwait.

In Kuwait, he met with troops from Pennsylvania. Their morale is good, he said.

"They want to finish the job," he said. "But, on the other hand, they want to get home."

If that is truly the case, then why didn't Murtha say that? After all, he is one of the war's biggest critics.

Or are you just bitter because your personal political agenda requires that the surge be a failure?

Posted by Rightocenter


so you are satisfied with the US trading the appearance of security for arms and money to the people who in the past 4+ years have attacked US forces?

If that is truly the case, then why didn't Murtha say that? After all, he is one of the war's biggest critics.

Or are you just bitter because your personal political agenda requires that the surge be a failure?

Posted by Rightocenter at 2007-11-30 02:09 PM | Reply |

You really think just adding 30,000 troops did the trick? Are we now going to ignore all the other "good news" you've been so proud of lately just to satisfy your own personal political agenda?

Or are you just bitter because your personal political agenda requires that the surge be a failure?

Posted by Rightocenter at 2007-11-30 02:09 PM | Reply | Flag:

Either way, Bush will forever be considered a failure and that is good enough for me.

Truth---The hypocrisy and ammorality of trading a few months relative peace from the Sunni for cash payments and arms is lost on these people.

That it won't, can't, give us anything we want long-term is more than lost, they buried it in a deep hole.

We don't deserve to win In Iraq. We're too stupid.

Either way, Bush will forever be considered a failure and that is good enough for me.

Posted by COMMONSENSE at 2007-11-30 02:17 PM |


Pathetic.

I was offended by the way the rightwingers went after Murtha several years ago when he had the honesty and the courage to be among the first to vocalize criticism of the Iraqi campaign. Reading the opinions of not only rightwing posters on this site, but also mainstream rightwing pundits, reinforced the belief that they were more concerned with partisan gain than actual truth. It made me despise them and feel contempt for their lack of honesty and intelligence.
Mr. Murtha is a great American who has spent his entire adult life serving this country. I have always placed weight on his opinions. If he says that militarily the surge is working, I accept that.

We don't deserve to win In Iraq. We're too stupid.

Posted by Zed at 2007-11-30 02:18 PM |


Pathetic.

Ask these fools how they stand on Sunni amnesty. If they say it's fine for those insurgents that never killed an American, ask them if it's fine for those that helped kill Americans.

Big Boy Cowboy Bush and His Icecream Raiders. Yah, we won't negotiate with terrorists, we'll just give them guns.

Yes. The plan to provide enough security for the Iraqi government has been successful. The Iraqis have not so far taken advantage of it. With parliamentary boondoggles due to walkouts and half a cabinet, they seem no closer to resolving the key issues than they were 2 years ago. Time for THEM to get their act together.

I firmly agree with Murtha that we need a clear exit strategy. After all Bush said well before the invasion that he wouldn't send troops into harms way without a clear mission and a clear exit strategy. No one can argue that we have one at this point. I hope he'll put the same effort and cooperation into leaving a clear path out of there as he is trying to broker peace between Israel and the Palestinians. We have even more at stake in Iraq.

Rogue-

I don't think that there really is a political "portion" of the surge itself, which is purely a military operation: the purpose of the surge is to quell violence and stabilize the country, which is being accomplished. The hoped for benefit of bringing stability is to allow the Parliment to get off their ass and get things done during the surge and beyond, but that really can't be in any way attributed to the military.

The surge is working but the Iraqis are not.

ahhh the average americans short term memory at work.

yeah violence is down to the levels from 3 years ago.


yeah

well as stated above we have traded arms and money to the sunni militias for the reduction in violence against US troops.

I for one find that noxious, but then again we SHOULD have always negotiated with both sides so this may be the beginning of wisdom.

is surge sustainable? no

unfortunately our troop strength will go down.

perhaps this level of violence will continue when the surge goes down, regardless that is only a small part of the issue.

Is america safer with IRaq in the condition it is in? with the ethnic strife and conflict underlying the surface?

Will Iraq continue to be a cause and motivator of violence against the US?

4000 lives lost, trillions spent to create the iraq we have, with unlimited commitment on the table.

We as a nation will bankrupt ourselves with this endeavor.

but yeah we had a few months of reduced violence.

Funny, Hillary said the same thing not too long ago and no one got pissy then.

We don't deserve to win In Iraq. We're too stupid.

Posted by Zed at 2007-11-30 02:18 PM

Pretty much sums up the anti-war left.

Yes. The plan to provide enough security for the Iraqi government has been successful. The Iraqis have not so far taken advantage of it. With parliamentary boondoggles due to walkouts and half a cabinet, they seem no closer to resolving the key issues than they were 2 years ago. Time for THEM to get their act together.

Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2007-11-30 02:22 PM

Well said.

We don't deserve to win In Iraq. We're too stupid.

Posted by Zed at 2007-11-30 02:18 PM

Pretty much sums up the anti-war left.


and your inability to see the reality of iraq is typical of the pro war right.

declare victory and bring troops home

"The hoped for benefit of bringing stability is to allow the Parliment to get off their ass and get things done during the surge and beyond, but that really can't be in any way attributed to the military.

The surge is working but the Iraqis are not.

Posted by Rightocenter at 2007-11-30 02:23 PM"

I thought that was the goal of the surge too. And I don't think they have gotten off their asses. It's like having a plan where the offensive lines blocks the rushers so the QB can throw the TD pass. If the blockers do thier job, but the QB fumbles the snap, did "the plan" work, or not?

"We don't deserve to win In Iraq. We're too stupid.

Posted by Zed at 2007-11-30 02:18 PM

Pretty much sums up the anti-war left."

Not true. And you know that.

I will not disregard what Murtha said. The security situation is getting better. I do not think that he is a traitor or a phony soldier like the Repugs, their right-wing nutjob talking heads and many of the neo-con posters have said.
We Won. Bring the Troops Home!

Good to see that Murtha is recognizing the great work being done by our troops, being realistic and putting partisan blindness aside.

Posted by Rightocenter at 2007-11-30 02:15 PM

Too bad you don't recognize the fact that the Troops, as good as they are, do not run the show and really have no say in the matter. Of course they want to win. And, of course, they want to come home.

This has no bearing on the fact that we should have never been there in the first place.

Either way, Bush will forever be considered a failure and that is good enough for me.

Posted by COMMONSENSE at 2007-11-30 02:17 PM |


Pathetic.

Posted by Kris_P_Bacon at 2007-11-30 02:18 PM | Reply | Flag


Whay pathetic? The Bush administration has done more to directly harm this country than any in history. A year from now when you're unemployed due to the toilet effect Bush policies are having on this country I hope you're still singing the tired old Bush apology tune.

Not true. And you know that.

Posted by mOntecOre at 2007-11-30 02:30 PM

You're right, we do deserve to win in Iraq.

;^)

(c'mon, I had to zing Zedly, he was begging for it with a retort like that)

of course after 4+years we still dont have a definiition of win so whatever.

Gee D'Boy, why aren't you chanting "Murtha Betrayed Us"...

Or is that not yet on the MoveOn talking points list?

Sweet, so this means that all our troops can start coming home tomorrow...

Oh wait, no it doesn't.

So who gives a flying fuck whether or not they think the surge is working? If it isn't working, they aren't coming home and if it is working they still aren't coming home.

So here's me not giving a fuck of anyone's opinion of the surge.

WAR ON AND SUPPORT THE TROOPS!!!

(...in that order)

With parliamentary boondoggles due to walkouts and half a cabinet, they seem no closer to resolving the key issues than they were 2 years ago

Under OUR definitions of what they need to do. Too bad we gave the a Constitution designed to prevent action,though. And remember, bad as maliki is, he was hand-picked by Rice and Bush as the most "friendly" shia towards the sunnis.

Look at Iraq this way-imagine its Poland after the Nazis left. Imagine going to the Polish majority and asking them to give money and political power to the Germans. What would they say to you?

The shia majority now control the oilfields and port of basra, through their militias. The kurds are doing okay, at least until Turkey gets really pissed off, but then again, there's nothing we can do about that.
So 80% of the population is happy.
The sunnis are not, because they've got no oil or power. Now they've got us arming them and promising them we'll make it all better for them. This makes the saudis happy, who are the ones that wrote the surge for Cheney last winter.
If the shia and kurds don't go along with our wishes (and they haven't done much of what Bush has asked since he promised them money and bodies for as long as they want), then what?
The sunnis going to suck it up and become the palestinians to the shia's Israelis? They going to say, gee thanks for trying America, and sorry about all the bad things we did in the past, we love you now?
We're going to end up with a shiastan, a kurdistan and a sunni welfarestateistan, with the us and the saudis bankrolling the sunnis and eventually American-killing jihadists (again) and Iran with its hands all over the shia south.

As they say in Tehran, Mission Accomplished!

BTW, this should quiet the righties who complain that RCade doesn't put good news in Iraq on the front page.

Kudos.

It should not be forgotten that if the surge is indeed working then obviously the previous strategies were horribly wrong and could thus be blamed for the deaths of many American soldiers.
Bush and Rummy had five years of stubbornly following strategy that many generals have said was not what they recommended, which was designed by Rummy. He should not be allowed to just slither away as if he is not directly responsible for so many American soldier's deaths. Dumbya' responsibility too in underscored by Patreus' success.

Gee D'Boy, why aren't you chanting "Murtha Betrayed Us"...
That is what yall have been saying for years. Now you are taking it back? Do not forget YOUR talking points!
Better listen to some more Lush Limpballs.

The war has not gotten better or worse, it is merely playing out. This December will bring about the requirement for the Iraqi parliament to sign off of the PSA agreements to sell off the rights to the majority of Iraqi oil reserves to private oil corporations, you know the ones making 10 million dollar profits per quarter. If the Iraqi parliament plays hardball and refuses they will be dissolved or their country broken up in to bits.

Once this happens we can then trot out the mission accomplished signs again. It will be grand, we can then draw down troop levels, recede to our bases and begin the 30 year occupation of their oil fields. We never were losing, and we still haven't won. The hydrocarbon law will stabilize the dollar, allow us to continue expanding the money supply of the USA, keep the charade going for another 3 decades as we continue to move towards globalization.

Since john F Kennedy was assassinated this country has been controlled by the banks, they started this war, they will finish this war, and there corporations will prosper at the cost of lives and taxpayer dollars to pay interest on the money funneled from our economy to the Masters.

Baaaahhaahhh

"(c'mon, I had to zing Zedly, he was begging for it with a retort like that)

Posted by Rightocenter at 2007-11-30 02:35 PM"

Alright, I'll give you a pass this time.

"BTW, this should quiet the righties who complain that RCade doesn't put good news in Iraq on the front page.

Posted by Rightocenter at 2007-11-30 02:39 PM"

Sista, please! Nothing will quiet the whiny righties around here, other than maybe a meat slicer and some duct tape.

billion

It should not be forgotten that if the surge is indeed working then obviously the previous strategies were horribly wrong and could thus be blamed for the deaths of many American soldiers.
Bush and Rummy had five years of stubbornly following strategy that many generals have said was not what they recommended, which was designed by Rummy. He should not be allowed to just slither away as if he is not directly responsible for so many American soldier's deaths. Dumbya' responsibility too in underscored by Patreus' success.

Posted by danni

since we are playing the blame game.... doesn't this also mean that the democrats' bills to pull the troops out before the surge would have cost countless US lives (assumed in a rush pullout... which you backed), and endless iraqi lives?

just yes or no danni. no mitt romneying this answer.

I think you people who sit here and point fingers back and forth calling out lefties and righties are all a bunch of pawns caught up in the minutia.

Let me glue a hundred dollar bill to the highway and then you all can go stand out their and argue about whether or not to pick it up. Honk Honk

the moral of that question: quit playing the (indirect) blame game.

"since we are playing the blame game.... doesn't this also mean that the democrats' bills to pull the troops out before the surge would have cost countless US lives (assumed in a rush pullout... which you backed), and endless iraqi lives?

just yes or no danni. no mitt romneying this answer.

Posted by Yodar013 at 2007-11-30 02:47 PM"

No, it would have saved US lives. (You may not care, but I'm sure there are some moms, children, brothers, sisters, and widows who do.)

It may have resulted in more Iraqi deaths. It's hard to say for sure how Iraq would have reacted, but my guess is not well.

democrats' bills to pull the troops out before the surge would have cost countless US lives

HUH? Put down the crackpipe.

The surge might be working at making many neighborhoods more safe. That could lead to people embracing peaceful coexistence and maybe even the government we've imposed on them.

Or it could mean that the we are just better at keeping the warring parties away from each other and that they'll go right back to trying to take over once we leave.

Or maybe they're just waiting us out and getting ready for the civil war in the meantime.

Hard to tell. This forcing democracy on people who hate us is tricky business. At least we're getting nothing out of it.

fuck you montecore. i used to respect your comments.

The surge might be working at making many neighborhoods more safe. That could lead to people embracing peaceful coexistence and maybe even the government we've imposed on them.

Or it could mean that the we are just better at keeping the warring parties away from each other and that they'll go right back to trying to take over once we leave.

Or maybe they're just waiting us out and getting ready for the civil war in the meantime.

Hard to tell. This forcing democracy on people who hate us is tricky business. At least we're getting nothing out of it.

I swear, I only hit "Publish" once. Honest.

IraqiBukkake a rushed pullout would have been very costly. sorry if you didn't know that.

even murtha just stated it. try reading the article.

"IraqiBukkake a rushed pullout would have been very costly. sorry if you didn't know that."

Possibly. But definitely not as costly as rushing in without anything approaching a comprehensive strategy. Perhaps not as costly as staying without a comprehensive strategy either.

true

ie, lets get a comprehensive strategy that involves a slow pullout over time.

Sully-

it could mean that the we are just better at keeping the warring parties away from each other and that they'll go right back to trying to take over once we leave.

Or maybe they're just waiting us out and getting ready for the civil war in the meantime.

I hope they can wait for 50 years or so, since we will have 30K-50K troops on our 4 huge bases for that long.

"fuck you montecore. i used to respect your comments.

Posted by Yodar013 at 2007-11-30 02:53 PM"

Geez, you're the third or fourth right winger I've pissed off in the last day or two. I'll say to you what I said to them: Sorry.

"IraqiBukkake a rushed pullout would have been very costly. sorry if you didn't know that.""

Actually, never invading in the first place would have been quite thrifty both in lives and dollars.
But, I know, we have too look at things as they are today, no fair for us libs to look back and consider all the mistakes and crimes that got us to this point. No fair for us to expect justice for those responsible for this unending drain of resources and lives.

IraqiBukkake a rushed pullout would have been very costly. sorry if you didn't know that.

Says who? The neocon version of Miss Cleo, who has been SO RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING?

I forgot...I should just have faith in my fear. The neocon mantra.

I hope they can wait for 50 years or so, since we will have 30K-50K troops on our 4 huge bases for that long.




once comment of substance among you misguided fools.

Actually, never invading in the first place would have been quite thrifty both in lives and dollars.
But, I know, we have too look at things as they are today, no fair for us libs to look back and consider all the mistakes and crimes that got us to this point. No fair for us to expect justice for those responsible for this unending drain of resources and lives.

Or how about giving Saddam the billion dollars to go into exile and dropping a MOAB on his summer home?

"fuck you montecore. i used to respect your comments.

Posted by Yodar013 at 2007-11-30 02:53 PM"

Geez, you're the third or fourth right winger I've pissed off in the last day or two. I'll say to you what I said to them: Sorry.

Posted by mOntecOre

monte, some of us are smart enough to know that we all care about the troops and don't stoop to the level of saying that others don't. apparently you don't understand this. sorry.

IraqiBukkake a rushed pullout would have been very costly. sorry if you didn't know that.""

Actually, never invading in the first place would have been quite thrifty both in lives and dollars.
But, I know, we have too look at things as they are today, no fair for us libs to look back and consider all the mistakes and crimes that got us to this point. No fair for us to expect justice for those responsible for this unending drain of resources and lives.

Posted by danni

i didn't say that danni. and yes never invading in the first place would have been better. but if ur gonna nit-pick everystrategy since then and play the indirect blame game, then can't that same bullshit reasoning be applied to the dems that wanted a rush pullout before the surge? if you think not, then ur a hypocrite.

IraqiBukkake a rushed pullout would have been very costly. sorry if you didn't know that.

Says who? The neocon version of Miss Cleo, who has been SO RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING?


I forgot...I should just have faith in my fear. The neocon mantra.

Posted by IraqiBukkake

says every single general. you know, the guys you keep quoting when bitching about this admin. remember them?

keep feeding each others ignorance

oh i see, you only care what generals say when it fits your agenda. got it.

repugnant, i could step back and not have any opinion and play the high road too. i'd rather get down to it tho.

sure, i'll admit my opinions are bullshit and don't mean squat in the grand scheme of things. but i'd rather try and understand the bullshit opinions of others by debating said opinions.

thats the point , none of you are getting down to it, the surge is bullshit, its irrelevant, its something for you to sit and argue about while the real agenda is being executed, and it has nothing to due with the sucess of the surge, the surge is only there to buy time until we get the privitized oil contracts, it doens matter if we have 150,000 or 180,000 or whatever the number is. Once you reach a cetain point the number of boots on the ground is meaningless. they can perform their duties with either number. it is the commands and tactics being sent down from the top that will determine success. Which are driven by the politics of economic negotiation and surrender their national resources. That - is the only measurement of success or failure.

Now this funny. No matter how the surrendercrats try to spin what is happening in Iraq it's still crow they must eat, lots of it. Such sad faces.

Bon Apptit

even murtha just stated it. try reading the article.

Really, where?

I just read it 3 times because I couldn't believe I missed that on the first read...and I didn't because it isn't there.

Either way, Bush will forever be considered a failure and that is good enough for me.

Posted by COMMONSENSE at 2007-11-30 02:17 PM

And you will always be considered an IDIOT.

Good enough for me.

fuck off zulu - you lose too

well said. i think we all understand this 'first' agenda. i think what we all care about is the 'second' agenda, and thats to get the first agenda done with the least amount of iraqi and american deaths. and you said it "once you reach a certain point of boots on the ground..." we finally reached that point. it unfortunate bush didn't realize this or listen to the advice given to him.

sorry -im having one of those days where stupidity is pissing me off. too much of it going around

Well thank goodness for truth--

The surge has been working--and we all recognize that there is more that needs to be done--especially from the Iraqi gov't..

And we all want the troops to come home victorious and asap.

There are many Dems who want the same thing.

There are some in the party or the anti-war crowd who are not happy with this development. Oh well--Merry Christmas anyway...


Murphy

Mr. Murtha said he may be willing to compromise on the timing of a withdrawal if the White House shows some flexibility. He acknowledged that the U.S. military would be unable to handle the logistics of pulling its heavy equipment from Iraq by the end of 2008.

okay bukkake, it wasn't stated outright by murtha. but its been said by many generals. this last sentence is saying that 'unable to handle the logistics' ie, not safely. its not clear. but its a pretty obvious point that is rarely challenged by either side.... at least except for obama. but what do u expect?

Its hard to justify or be proud of "mission Accomplished" when the mission is to privatize (steal) their national resources, in order to stabilize our corrupt and hemorrhaging monetary policy

The Surge will officially be a success for this country when all the troops are brought home.

Success doesn't always equate winning. People watch way too much pro sports to realize this.

America will be on the path to win only when our leaders vow publically never to get into nation building and foreign meddling again. We will only win when we back this up with action and rebuild our reputation around the world by believing in what we do and doing what we believe.

Every bit of propaganda needs a vehicle to launch it. Murtha should consider himself special that he's been that vehicle for both sides. It is quite pathetic how everything this country stands for has been reduced to a tennis tournament-- volley after volley of bullshit from both sides-- assholes in the stands cheering and jeering-- assholes at courtside writing their own take on the proceedings and then sending it off via passenger pigeon or trained purple-assed baboon to the nearest media outlet to be disseminated, spun, and regurgitated ad nauseum.

John Murtha and his ilk can kiss my red white and blue ass.

Repugnant there are several objectives. that happens to be one of them.

I'd be interested to know how many war supporters on here actually think we are in Iraq to fight terrorism or promote democracy vs. overrunning thier oil supply.

If you think its the terrorism, your dead wrong.

America will be on the path to win only when our leaders vow publically never to get into nation building and foreign meddling again. We will only win when we back this up with action and rebuild our reputation around the world by believing in what we do and doing what we believe.

b keeper

so you don't think america should ever again engage in nation building under any circumstance? and you don't think america should ever use its influence in foreign affairs?

lemme ask you this: do you think america has ever done positive things for other countries and the world in general?

if yes, then why does this one bad example take away all the positive ones?

The Surge will officially be a success for this country when all the troops are brought home.


dont hold your breath, unless you plan on waiting until 2037 to start breathing again.

idealism is nice, but its not the real world.

Repugnant there are several objectives. that happens to be one of them.


what would a few others be Yoder?

Repugnant the overall objective is to change the middle east for the better. all the other objectives fall under that catagory.

do you think that the average iraqi will receive more money from their oil under the private companies taking control now? or how it was under saddam?

The "surge" was a numbers game, a shell game, did we really send 30, thousand extra troops or did we delay returning troops here speed up deployments there and move a few divisions around.

Regardless, if we now admit that a "surge" worked aren't we admitting that the whole war policy was flawed and many lives have been lost because why?

Why did Bush refuse to send more Troops into this Battle for Civilization in the very beginning? Was it to make this Forever War just that? A Forever War. Designed to fleece the American public and line the pockets of the War Profiteers and the Military Industrial Complex and the Oil Executives and the Super Rich who really pull the strings.

My opinion is that this behavior by the Bush Administration amounts to criminal conduct. And all their behaviors since have been to cover their tracks and obfuscate, mislead and delay the public from finding out the truth.

So the "surge" appears to be working. Maybe it is maybe it has nothing to with it. Regardless, A LIE is a LIE.

Do I need to remind you again?

There were no WMD
There was NO link to 9/11.
There was no imminent threat to America.

Bush-

"Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons."

LIE

"Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons."

LIE

"We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have."

LIE

"The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons."

LIE

"We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States."

LIE

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

LIE

Never forget Bush lied and hundreds of thousands have died.

okay bukkake, it wasn't stated outright by murtha. but its been said by many generals. this last sentence is saying that 'unable to handle the logistics' ie, not safely. its not clear. but its a pretty obvious point that is rarely challenged by either side.... at least except for obama. but what do u expect?

Transportation of equipment in a timely fashion from one location to another is logistics. That means you don't have enough boats and planes to transport the equipment to where it needs to go. If you want to twist it into something that has to do with troops not dying, that's fine.

Perhaps someone may get an infected hangnail and die packing their suitcase...perhaps.

including (falling under that catagory) is the selfish reason of keeping energy supply stable. but it can also be viewed as unselfish.... if done correctly.

The US has bases in 63 countries, none as valuable to our economy as the control of Iraq, we spend nearly 700 Billion a year to support all of these bases. We aren't leaving Iraq for another generation - till Iraq has passed its peak

Repugnant the overall objective is to change the middle east for the better. all the other objectives fall under that catagory.



Can you articulate this assertion? better? what does that mean??

How does privatizing the Iraqi oil supply make the Iraqi lives better, why would they only want to take a small percentage of THEIR oil when they could have it all?

'fuck off zulu - you lose too'

Tisk tisk, don't get mad at me just because you were on the wrong side of history.

"but if ur gonna nit-pick everystrategy since then and play the indirect blame game, then can't that same bullshit reasoning be applied to the dems that wanted a rush pullout before the surge? if you think not, then ur a hypocrite."

5 years of failure....it wasn't "bullshit reasoning" to expect more failure. How could we possibly have known how beneficial it would be for Bush to jettison Rummy and hell, he always claimed he was listening to the military leaders on the ground....how were we to know he really never did until after Rummy left????
Really the more successful Patreus is now just further proves how incompetent and how many lives were lost due to administration stubbornness and unwillingness to do what they claimed they were doing.....listen to the military.

idealism is nice, but its not the real world

Idealism is what got us into this
"rreal world" shit in the first place!!!! WTF????

The President doesnt listen to the military, the military listens to the President.

I think the right is a bit overly jubilant about the improvement in Iraq, it still doesn't change the fact that the entire idea of invading/occupying Iraq was wrong from the beginning, has cost us an estimated 1.5 trillion dollars and 4000 American soldiers' lives (so far) not to mention the estimated 1,000,000 Iraqi lives.
Now because the violence has diminished somewhat it is still hardly a "victory." It is just turning now into a less horrible disaster. Still a huge fucking disaster, but the proportions, while not decreasing, are not increasing at the same rate they were before. People are still dying in Iraq. Infrastructure is still destroyed. Our deficit is still huge and growing. Our soldiers are still dying, just fewer of them.

for starters, getting the region into the 20th century would be better.

hmmmm, maybe at least to a point of modernity where woman aren't given lashes for being gang-raped.

some say that the best way to judge how far along a country has developed is to simply look at the way they treat the women in their society.

freedom of movement, economic dispersment, infrastructure,communications, humane living/working conditions, elected leaders, self-sufficient in aggriculture, trade, negotiation etc etc. the list goes on.

Idealism is often used as an excuse - We are speading democracy to the world - says George Bush.

In this case the word democracy means - US backed international ecomomic infrastructure.

fuck you montecore. i used to respect your comments.

Posted by Yodar013 at 2007-11-30 02:53 PM | Reply |

As if he was making jokes about your mom or something... he answered your question....

Maybe I missed a dump in between those 2 points...

Still a huge fucking disaster, but the proportions, while not decreasing, are not increasing at the same rate they were before

-danni

kinda like philly?

So you beleive the Us went to war specifically with a man that we empowered and gave money and weapons to for over a decade, because of the way he treated women? After 5 years, people in areas of US control in Iraq are living under conditions much, much worse than they ever were under Saddam.

You think its because we are so altruistic we want to send trillions of dollars and thousands of soldiers to kill a million of thier civilians to promote civil rights?

COME ON..

As if he was making jokes about your mom or something... he answered your question....

Maybe I missed a dump in between those 2 points...

Posted by KnightHawk

no he indirectly said that i don't care about the troops. it wasn't an FU in anger, just like disappointment cause i thought he was smarter than taht.

Your momma is so fat that if she wanted to haul ass shed have to hire a mover.


OK can we quit with the insults now Children?

"I hope they can wait for 50 years or so, since we will have 30K-50K troops on our 4 huge bases for that long.


once comment of substance among you misguided fools."

Yes, Repugnant, the only person here who is not a fool is the one claiming to know what the next 6-12 administrations are going to do about Iraq.

Thanks for your wisdom, Slappy.

"for starters, getting the region into the 20th century would be better.

hmmmm, maybe at least to a point of modernity where woman aren't given lashes for being gang-raped."

By that logic it would have made more sense to have started in Saudi Arabia....plus it would have been easier to make a case that they were actually involved in 9-11.
Even today it would make more sense than to threaten Iran by the logic you state.

""I hope they can wait for 50 years or so, since we will have 30K-50K troops on our 4 huge bases for that long."

As Bob Dylan sang....the times they are achangin.

I doubt we will be able to afford the luxury of that many troops stationed there for that long.

repugnant, u didn't ask why we went to war. you asked how are we going to change the ME for the better... and specificaly, what is better?

it was a vague question... i gave a vague answer. then you used my vague answer to make me sound as if i said: " the Us went to war specifically with a man that we empowered and gave money and weapons to for over a decade, because of the way he treated women?"

which is BS and u know it. so thanks.

a one word answer by me would have been better: connectivity.

you guys often forget about the entire continent that is getting shat on (ignored) by the rest of the world. and its because there is no connectivity. ie, we don't give a shit. and it sucks for them.

in many ways, the ME is lucky to have the resources it does, then the rest of us actually give a crap about the stability in the region and its development.

Gee Sully, it would be unprecident for US to leave bases and soldiers behind in countries we have occupied wouldnt it


Ignore history, Ignore the present, ignore reality

Just click your heels and say theres not place like home, theres no place like home.

'OK can we quit with the insults now Children?'

You're so ugly Hillary Clinton won't flip flop in your direction.

By that logic it would have made more sense to have started in Saudi Arabia....plus it would have been easier to make a case that they were actually involved in 9-11.
Even today it would make more sense than to threaten Iran by the logic you state.

Posted by danni

i couldnt' agree more danni.

my logic is solid. we started with the wrong country. but it doesn't mean we shouldn't continue the job.

We dont give a rats ass about the regions people. We only want stability for the oil pipelines.

What is the first thing the US military secured when they got into iraq?

the oil! the pipelines, the infrastructure,

Meanwhile looting of precious iraqi museums , galleies, and national treasures occured right in front of our troops eyes and we did nothing about it.

We dont give a shit about htier cultural history or the peoples future, we only want their crude!

and what are we protecting in all those african nations? oh yea.

but yes ur point is spot on. in that we should have protected more.

What victory might be in Iraq has been shifted and lied about and dumbed down so often it's clear what used to be conservatism has no respect for that concept any longer.

There was a time, four years ago and much less, when the Neoright argued we couldn't have victory in Iraq without the enemy beaten.

But the enemy continues to exist, and is as well-organized than ever. And better armed. They aren't going anywhere, and why should they? What they did worked.

So, if I may be forgiven, we are too stupid to win in Iraq. Dumb. Idiotic. Decorticate.

But, as Bush seems to have taught us, it's possible to be fat and happy anyway.

"my logic is solid. we started with the wrong country. but it doesn't mean we shouldn't continue the job."

At the tune of 8-10 billion a month, hopefully we won't have to continue too long.

Hey, if we are going to save all the oppressed people in the world, can the world blame us if we choose to save the ones who live in oil producing countries first???? We'll get around to the rest as soon as we finish with all the oil producers but that may take a while.

Makes you wonder what would've happened if the proper amount of troops had been sent in to start with....

"At Baghdad University, classrooms, laboratories and offices have been vandalised, and equipment and furniture stolen or destroyed."

So much for any future Iraqi nukular threat. Ignorant people won't be making nukes. Perhaps we should just bomb all the universities in the ME.

8-10 billion a month, hopefully we won't have to continue too long.


Thats a drop in the bucket comparred to the profit marigns for privitized oil producers, a conservative estimate has at least 30 trillion dollars worth of oil underground.

China is going to want to buy a large amount of it. What better way to reduce Chinas growing economic control and investment than by forcing them to buy oil from US companies instead of directly from Iraq. Ingenious.

Makes you wonder what would've happened if the proper amount of troops had been sent in to start with....

Posted by Dave



No difference - the plan is working fine Dave. We had no intention of ever getting out once we got in.

Like I've been saying, if Greenspan says it was about oil, then it was about oil. I doubt anyone here has the access to the people who make the wheels of America turn like he does. It just seems ridiculous that many still try to fool themselves, to convince themselves that we had some sort of altruistic motives for Iraq or that it was part of an overall "war on terror."
The "war on terror" has become such a joke that today we have to have "recordings of Bin Laden" scaring people because their fear is beginning to wear off.

"Gee Sully, it would be unprecident for US to leave bases and soldiers behind in countries we have occupied wouldnt it

Ignore history, Ignore the present, ignore reality

Just click your heels and say theres not place like home, theres no place like home."

It also wouldn't be unprecedented for us to pull troops from a country where the locals hate us and continue to attack us.

You can be as condescending as you want. But it doesn't mesh well with the general ignorance revealed by your statements. Your understanding of history is limited at best.

The "war on terror" has become such a joke that today we have to have "recordings of Bin Laden" scaring people because their fear is beginning to wear off.

Posted by danni

ur right danni. there is no such thing as salafi jihadis. nobody is planning future attacks on western countries. thanks for clearing it up.

site a comparable example to Iraq sully

yodar

I find it interesting that you beleive a mojor reason we ar in Iraq is to promote civil rights,

Yet, in the face of 9/11 the Bush administration has taken everyopportunity to restrict the social rights that have been a staple of our national pride.

We no longer have the right of Habeous Corpus - you rhome can be invaded any time , any reason due to Bush, We no longer have the right to private communications, We now allow torture methods outlawed in the Geneva conventions,

The military commision act, the patriot act, the arrogant abuse of executive power all enfore te idea that YOUR civil libierties are dying in the face of this evil administration.

first off, quote where i said we are in iraq to promote civil rights?

i made a grand connection between our involvment in the ME and the hopeful future outcome. i may have been suggesting that iraq is a small piece to that puzzle.. or at least hopefuly could be. but no i don't believe that was our intention going into iraq. its our overall intention for the region... eventualy.

now name a citizen whose home has been invaded please.

"site a comparable example to Iraq sully"

Iraq is its own situation. I don't think troop pullouts in Vietnam, Lebannon and Somalia are any more relevant than our continued presence in South Korea and Germany.

I'm saying the American-Iraqi relationship for the next 50 years is unpredictable.

You are the one saying that your limited understanding of history makes predicting our continued presence in Iraq for the next 50 years very easy. Giving you level of certainty, you should be the one citing not comparable examples, but exact matches.

1933 hitler stages the false attack - burns down the Parlimentary Reichstag - turns around and blames it on "terrorist comminists". FACT

In the weeks following he enacted the Enabling act which effedtly nullfied the German Constitution. The Act enabled Adolf Hitler to enact laws without the participation of the Reichstag. FACT

He then used this power to destroy liberties in Germany and to execute a series of "pre-emptive" wars with neighboring countries in order to secure Germanies "safety".


history repeats itself.


And yes i just compared bush to hitler

Idealism is often used as an excuse - We are speading democracy to the world - says George Bush. In this case the word democracy means - US backed international ecomomic infrastructure.

Repugnant, you have to understand that just because this reality is the name of the game, it often times uses idealism as the coattails it rides in on. Who's to say which one needs the other more...

I'm more used to the notch of the gunstock approach to change myself. Nothing changes reality so decisively...

Sully,

Why do yo ignor ethe fact that we have bases in over 63 countries, many of them since WWII, but doubt the long term agenda of the US govt in the oil rich and economically viable region of Iraq and the ME in general. Are you so thin on facts that you can not research this issue and find out the facts for yourself that you need me to spoon feed them to you.

history repeats itself.

So does every single song in the world-- after all, millions of songs are all based on eight notes...

But we all know its not that simple...

have a great weekend all.

We have succeded in pitting Brother vs. Brother in Iraq and our leaders are content to sit back and watch them destroy eachother. It makes the US govt job so much easier.

Part of the reason for decreased violence may be that the militias are growing wise to this and starting to calm down, realizing they are only hurting themselves and not the occupier, maybe the leaders of these militias are being assimilated into the machine and the operators feel like its time for real reconstruction to begin. If the Iraq parliment doesnt cooperate with passing the oil laws, boom we incite national violence again.

you too yodar, nice talking with you

""fuck you montecore. i used to respect your comments.

Posted by Yodar013 at 2007-11-30 02:53 PM | Reply |

As if he was making jokes about your mom or something... he answered your question....

Maybe I missed a dump in between those 2 points...

Posted by KnightHawk at 2007-11-30 03:53 PM"

Nope, you didn't. You just have to learn who is extra-sensitive before you post, I guess.

"Tisk tisk, don't get mad at me just because you were on the wrong side of history.

Posted by zulu at 2007-11-30 03:45 PM"

Funny flag for Zulu! That HAS to be a joke, right?

Empires are more easily created through manipulation and lies than truth.

the majority of people are blindly willing to follow thier govt regardless of the moral authority of the leaders. The people of Germany in the 1930s were not all bad people. they were guilty of blindly following an evil leader. So are you.


Of course the education system contributes heavily to this ignorance. The quality of education and direction of the american public has been in steady decline since WWII. Most people get their politcal education from David Letterman, Jay Leno and Regis, meanwhile Rupert Murdoch keeps feeding the media your "entertainment" and you keep eating it.

"Are you so thin on facts that you can not research this issue and find out the facts for yourself that you need me to spoon feed them to you."

Hypocritical Jackass: You asked me to give you a "comparable example" after I said the situation is unpredictable - which is assinine considering I think the situation is unique. I pointed out that since you are the one saying the siutation is set in stone based on history, you should be the one invoking historical examples. At which point you changed tact with the ridiculous rant above.

Let me assure you that I am perfectly comfortable with my understanding of history and of what is going on in Iraq. I simply don't subscribe to your cookie cutter belief system that tells you every military action in our history follows the same pattern. I was only giving you a chance to back up your idiotic claim that you know what the next 50 years hold for Iraq.

Go back to calling people fools while talking out your ass. You are out of your league, Swami.

It should not be forgotten that if the surge is indeed working then obviously the previous strategies were horribly wrong and could thus be blamed for the deaths of many American soldiers.
Bush and Rummy had five years of stubbornly following strategy that many generals have said was not what they recommended, which was designed by Rummy. He should not be allowed to just slither away as if he is not directly responsible for so many American soldier's deaths. Dumbya' responsibility too in underscored by Patreus' success.

Posted by danni at 2007-11-30 02:41 PM

You stupid idiot....with your logic, it would have been you and the Dems at fault if the surge had not been put in action for a larger number of deaths that would have occurred had there been no surge. Remember a majority of your Dems voted for this war. I swear if you looked in a mirror you would add yourself to your own atrocious "HOPE YOU DIE AND WITH A LOT OF PAIN" list

"I pointed out that since you are the one saying the siutation is set in stone based on history, you should be the one invoking historical examples. At which point you changed tact with the ridiculous rant above.- Sully"


hMmm

well you must have ignored the entire post about Hitler burning the Reichstag as a comparison, so conveniently ignore that if you will, along with Pearl Harbor, the Lusitania, Gulf of Tonkin ectt......


your battle ship is sunk Sully



Lets start with a basic question for you since you cant answer the complex ones yet.

"I am perfectly comfortable with my understanding of history and of what is going on in Iraq. - Sully'

OK sully tell us what is going on in Iraq. Why did we invade and why are we not pulling out anytime soon, despite assurances from both parties of Congress?? Hmmm?

"With your logic...."

Danni is entirely right. Obviously the previous strategies were entirely wrong. Painfully obvious, in fact, at the time.

Sully - Can you tell us why were going to invade Iran?

It's interesting to see people speak of "who would have been at fault" in Iraq had some event or the other transpired.

Hell, if teh martians invaded, I'm sure they would have screwed things up.

But the list of Usual Suspects always narrows to one. That would be the man the Marines insisted take personal responsibility for delaying the US offensive against Fallujuah until after he was safely re-elected.

If Murtha can admit he was wrong why is so difficult for all the leftwingnuts who hung on his every word to also admit they were wrong?

Even your nemesis, President George W. Bush, was able to admit he was wrong and came up with the brilliant Surge strategy.

Are leftwingnuts less flexible that Bush?

Sure seems that way.

The "surge" is working great for these folks! They are raking it in. Won't THEY have merry Christmas this year?


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"well you must have ignored the entire post about Hitler burning the Reichstag as a comparison, so conveniently ignore that if you will, along with Pearl Harbor, the Lusitania, Gulf of Tonkin ectt....."

I missed it the first time. Thanks for bringing it up. I needed a laugh.

Historical comparisons that involve unproven, ill conceived conspiracy theories are hardly a sensible tool for predicting the future.

"Sully - Can you tell us why were going to invade Iran?"

I don't think we are going to invade Iran. What army would we use anyway?

"Why did we invade and why are we not pulling out anytime soon, despite assurances from both parties of Congress?? Hmmm?"

We invaded for a variety of reasons: Neocon think tanks thought they could magically democratize the Middle East (without doing much prep work apparently) and open up their resources to our corporate interests. On some level they also naively assumed that all democracies would be our allies and thus a democratized Middle East would make us safer. That Bush's buddies would also get rich through no bid reconstruction contracts was a bonus. And Bush obviously had some kind of hard on for Saddam and his father's "failure" to topple the dictator. Bush may have actually believed that Saddam was going to give Al Queda nukes because it would justify his obsession.

9/11 provided an excuse but it certainly wasn't orchestrated by the morons who conceived the war in Iraq.

I'm not the one saying we aren't pulling out anytime soon. Why would I explain your position in that regard?

"Was able to admit he (Bush) was wrong, and come up with his brilliant Surge strategy...."

I recall he was dragged into change kicking and screaming---

And if the Republicans hadn't lost in 2006, no change even then---

But let's not think this reflects on Bush's love of country---

And let's not mention it was Petraeous' idea, not El Jefe's---the same one Bush made that general scuttle in the north of Iraq when it seemed to be working a couple of years before.

Well we agreed on one thing today

and open up their resources to our corporate interests...that Bush's buddies would also get rich through no bid reconstruction contracts
--------------------------


also naively assumed that all democracies would be our allie

you think? really after France and German and Russia and China said no, you think this why?

and Bush obviously had some kind of hard on for Saddam and his father's "failure" to topple the dictator.

Hahaa you need to pull that hook out of your mouth, you think Im crazy because hitler burned down the reichstag to implement the enabling act,(a well documented Fact for those interested in History) , but you cite some bullshit 3rd grade school yard BS as a reason to go to war. good Grief!


Bush may have actually believed that Saddam was going to give Al Queda nukes because it would justify his obsession.

What the hell are you talking about? You a sucker if you buy that.

Historical comparisons that involve unproven, ill conceived conspiracy theories are hardly a sensible tool for predicting the future. - Sully


So what was unproven sully?

The burning of the Reichstag?

The passing of the Enabling ACT?

The war hitler started in Europe?

Which of these incidents are you calling unproven conspiracy? You willfully ignorant moron!!

America will not go into Iran....

If Russia has any say in it.

Some say they do.

You know my aunt used to make a "lazy day" stew that tasted like shit. All of us young ones in the family dreaded going over her house when she made it.

We used to argue about what made it taste so bad--

"The liver is old" I said.

"The turnips are punky" one cousin said.

"The pepper is too peppery" said cousin Matto, God rest his soul.

In the end, we just decided that it wasn't the ingredients or even the way it was prepared-- it was the one who made it-- our Aunt, a sweetie, no doubt, but...

...

So, why did we invade Iraq? Was it the old liver? Was it the punky turnips? too much pepper? What?

Simply put, it was US-- we are just like my aunt in the kitchen. We got the best intentions, ingredients, the best appliances, we know where everything is and how to use it, but GODDAM we got the worst sense of what its gonna taste like in the end...

Why?

Because we should know not to try and make the goddam stew in the first place. Drop the spoon, go outside, shoot a deer, butcher its heart , rip into it raw and chew down upon our own hubris.

"Hahaa you need to pull that hook out of your mouth, you think Im crazy because hitler burned down the reichstag to implement the enabling act,(a well documented Fact for those interested in History) , but you cite some bullshit 3rd grade school yard BS as a reason to go to war. good Grief!"

I said it is one of many reasons. Then you come back with this strawman that I said it was "the reason". Grow up.

Google 'Bush Saddam Obsession'. Plenty of people believe that Bush had some kind of weird obsession with Saddam. He's got Saddams pistol on his desk right now.

"Which of these incidents are you calling unproven conspiracy? You willfully ignorant moron!!"

That our government was behind 9/11 the way Hitler was behind the fire. That is the only way 9/11 and the Reichstag fire would correlate. I am not quite ROF but you do make me LOL!

"What the hell are you talking about? You a sucker if you buy that."

I am a sucker to believe that someone who wanted to invade Iraq for selfish reasons might delude himself into believing Iraq as a natioanl security threat in order to justify his behavior?

You know very little about human nature.

Murtha: 'The Surge is Working'

He's a day late and a "dinar" short.

It's fun watching anti-war, anti-miltary creeps like Murtha try to spin their way out of the fact that they have been seeking defeat, saying the war is lost, and calling innocent troops "cold-blooded murders" for years now.

If Murtha, Reid, Pelosi and company had their way -- we would have suffered a staggering defeat and failure in Iraq and there would have been no chance for the surge to work as it is doing now.

"We would have suffered staggering defeat and falure in Iraq...."

We did.

So you are saying the US govt. is not capable of letting bad events happen to its people in order to achieve a desired outcome?

Then how do you explain the fact that our government knew about the sinking of the Lusitania, Pearl Harbor with prior knowledge in order to get us involved in 2 world wars? Not to mention the outright lies about the Gulf of Tonkin incident. The reason I bring up Hitlers rise is because he started WWII by pre-emptive invasions very similar to the Iraq invasion. If you think there is not a very good chance we will depose Ahmadinejad you are niave. You obviously didnt listen to Bush, when he said he's got his own Axis of Evil to fight.

Their is no conspiracy in the truth, only brainwashed people who blindly trust authority.

So what do you just sit back - absorb and regurgitate everything the MSM and GWB tell you?

They say ignorance is bliss, you must be a happy person.

Bowa don't get to Rosey, you know at any moment those damn militias can rear their ugly heads and make us look bad again whenever they want.

But hey you've been on the wrong side of the fence on this issue for so long that who can blame you for gloating, you cant afford to miss the opportunity to point it out.

I am a sucker to believe that someone who wanted to invade Iraq for selfish reasons might delude himself into believing Iraq as a national security threat in order to justify his behavior?

Posted by Sully

No, your a sucker if you think George Bush made the decision to go to war with Iraq.

Here is how you can figure out what is really happening in the world. take most of what George bush says and infer the opposite. That will get you closer to reality.

"I'm the decider" - was just another lie...

the Iraqis have to do this themselves. We can't win it for them."

I set your house on fire and held off the fire department, sitting down at the end of the street.

I've shut off all the water to the neighbourhood and we know one of your family members is already dead in the flames.

Your child is missing and we can hear the anguished cries of someone still in there.

However, you have to do this yourselves. We can't put out the fire for you.

Here's a Dixie cup I pissed in. Have at it.

Regards,
etc.

Repugnant--your screen name fits you well.


There were 22 reasons for going to Iraq--Resolutions that the Congress voted on to approve. They were not lies as you claim--everyone from the Clintons and Gore and the UN and the Arabs and everyone said Saddam had WMD's. The reasons were based on the best intel we had at the time.

if there were lies--why wouldn't Bush just have the WMD's planted--like CNN did with that gay general?

And yes there were mistakes in the war--the managing of the war--like all wars.

And we finally got it right with the surge and Amen--finally.

Now if we can get the Iraqi gov't to do their part and it would be great to draw down the troops.

Let's get most of them home asap. We will have bases there for the next 100 years--just like we have bases in Germany for the last 60 years.

Had a really good week of work--billing billing billing.

Murphy

if there were lies--why wouldn't Bush just have the WMD's planted--like CNN did with that gay general?


Good line!!!

Either way, Bush will forever be considered a failure and that is good enough for me.
Posted by COMMONSENSE


This is because you probably hated Bush even before you knew he was running for President. Most likley you were still mad about the Ken Starr thing and made up your mind early on to hate and abuse any Republican who became President.

One thing you must admit: anybody who was President (Right or Left) during and after 9/11 would have had to deal with things no other President has since say, the War of 1812.

Kudos to Murtha, who has the balls to change his tune when shown evidence. Iraq is nowhere near perfect but my guess is that if you went there, you too might have a Murtha Moment.

But hey you've been on the wrong side of the fence on this issue for so long

But hey you've been on the wrong side of the fence on this issue for so long

Repugnant, I haven't been on the wrong side of this issue ever. I supported the war from the beginning and deplore all the mistakes that were made in the early years of the war. My position has been that had we had prior knowledge beyond reasonable doubt that Saddam did not have WMD's then we should not have invaded when we did. But we did and now we have to create the best poibble outcome for the US and Iraq. And immediate withdrawl would the wrongest thing of all to do.

And even though Liberals have been trying to rewrite history for years now in claiming that "Bush Lied Us Into War" the reality is that he didn't -- he just acted on the consensus view of Saddam at the time which said he did have WMMD's -- a view which was shared by his predecessor Clinton, the Congress, the CIA and numerous other intel agencies around the world. All this is well documented which is why the Congress likely refuses to open up an investigation into the way intel was disseminated to/from the administration in the run up to the war. No doubt the democrats do not want put together an investigation which would exonerate the president from wrongdoing -- and take away their favorite soundbite from them ; "Bush Lied Us Into War"

And given the consensus view of Saddam, It would have been reckless for Bush not to preemptively strike him given the context in which 1441 became the "last straw' after 12 years of broken resolutions. It is easy in hidsight to focus on those in the government who did not share this consensus view -- but they were a small minority arguing against a huge majority which stated that Saddam did have WMD's and was trying to get and build more.

So we deposed Saddam -- but Saddam had the last laugh. Then things got uglier before they got better -- as al-qaeda made Iraq their frontline on the war on terror -- and they fomented violence between shia and sunnis, at the same time the Iranian Shia aligned with IRaqi shias against Iraq' sunni and baathists, add a motley mix of local thugs, militias and terrorists and chaos reigned for the first couple of years.

Then the big election and a Constituion -- UN recognition and foreign investment, as well as the continued commitment by the US into making Iraq work and by the end of 2006 -- the insurgency was beginning to lose heart since they realized that no only wasn't the US leaving but we were upping the ante and bringing more soldiers in . In the meantime, the Iraqis were getting fed up with be brutalized by al-qaeda and the militias in their midsts so the stage was set for a new strategy.

Enter the surge-- a daring strategy that is structured around breaking up large units into small local units that live among Iraqi civilians to develop relationships with the people -- and show them by doing that the US troops were here to help thme get the kind of peaceful and prosperus like they want --- tips from informants began poring nto the troops as they gained the trust of the Iraqis -- and all of a sudden the US was on offense and the insurgents were on the run with nowhere to hide.

And while political problems persist at the national level -- on the local level - "Federalism" is unifying Iraq and holding it together -- achieving much of the political succeses that we hope eventually the national government will be able to achieve. And while it would have been nice for Iraq to come together from the Top down-- the Maliki government has proved to weak for that ---Instead Iraq is being born from the bottum up -- and that is just as good. And it is very exciting to watch the rebirth of community by community on a daily basis.

As you said, I shouldn;t get to Rosey --- but that suggests that these positive developments will be shortlived or are just abberrations in the fabric of war which we can never win. And I completely disagree.

I think that these successes came about only after deep roots had been established in communities throughout Iraq -- helping Iraqis embrace democracy, capitialism, consumerism, self-determination

-- help them understand the idea of liberty.

These changes are the antithesis of what the Radicals are trying to force on them throuhg brutality and death, And to theior credit, the Iraqis are rising up and rejecting the dogma of al-qasda and Iran ...choosing instead their own dogma, their own Iraqi ideal for themselves -- and a national identity is being born in front of the worlds eyes. It is thrilling to watch. And Bush's persistint belief in the Iraqi people is allowed for this to happen.

your personal political agenda requires that the surge be a failure?

Posted by Rightocenter at 2007-11-30 02:09 PM


KABOOM!!!!!!!!!!

nice one.
and I know what you got after this without even looking......that kind of truth always brings out the kooks

"It's thrilling to watch...."

You bet. The Turks have entered Iraqi territory to punish the PPK.

Either way, Bush will forever be considered a failure and that is good enough for me.

Posted by COMMONSENSE at 2007-11-30 02:17 PM | Reply


well old buddy......except for one little thing......

recently we have witnessed one of the first parts of the bush legacy that I am certain will be changed and twisted by the left........(look at cnn thread and see how the left has already changed everything about REPUBLICAN REFORMS OF THE 90's.)........

bush stood the higher moral ground on stem cell research and people here and everywhere called him every name in the book and us too who supported him.......
and now we read where we were right all along and there is no more reason to even consider the moral dilima......the recently discovered method of this research is said to be better and easier and not a part of the embryo matter.
so bush was right all along......and now we have a better and easier way to continue this important research.
SOMETHING CONSERVATIVE RETORTERS SAID ALL ALONG WOULD HAPPEN, I MIGHT ADD......

so the drinks are on me to my conservative bros here who stood our moral ground with mister president..
it wont be the last time we see that HE WAS RIGHT AND LIBERALS WERE WRONG.........

and someone please question me on that last line.....all I have to do is refer you to the thread about MURTHA CHANGING HIS TUNE ABOUT THE SURGE........

Bush an Bowe.

Very articulate responses.

The Dems have been wrong on every issue because to do two things 1) Believe in the power of liberty and 2)The American Ideal.

Economics: The tax cuts worked, We have only 4.5 % unemployment, the deficit is being reduced radically EVEN in a time of war. - Yet each of the current people standing for President on that side are currently running the processes that got us here with the only answer being "TAX MORE"


Foreign Relations: Remember "our allies have abandoned us"? and that talk was specifically about the French and the Germans - Yet the new guy in France wants to make France our best Friend and Germany voted in a conservative government to try to reduce thier 11% unemployment (yet each of the D presidential canadates want to shadow the European socilist model) How about the American model?

Iraq will become democracy and create a wedge between Syria and Iran. The Dems Waived the white flag on the FLOOR OF THE SENATE - Quite frankly if I was president I would have arrested Ried for Treason.

Is it any wonder that the Saudi's are now rounding up people and the Palastinians are coming to the table....When Clinton got an Agreement the press went on and on about how "HISTORIC" It was...but it resulted in 6 years of the Infatada....where is the press on Bush?

Domestic Policy: In this area NEITHER the Rep. or the Dem. have succeeded. But more Rep. want to close the boarder than do the Dem. I think Bush is wrong in his approach here.

However you do see support for closing the border more on the Rep than on the Dem.

The most critical problem is currently Social Security which neither party is addressing ...but the Dems fear monger this issue and the press helps them out ..to all of our detriment.

Lastly - Health care. I just got back from London and road the train from Victoria Station to a small town in southern England. On the train was a pretty girl with an arm in a cast. I found out that she had broken her arm in three places OVER A YEAR AGO - and had just gotten the operation to get it fixed due to the PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEM which John Edwards would MANDATE and Hillary is still trying to get us to adopt.

IF that does not tell you everything you need to know about public health care I do not what will.

So...wrong side on economic policy because they do not believe in Capitalism, wrong side on foreign policy because they do not believe in Liberty, and the wrong side on Domestic policy because of both. The Liberty to chose and capitalism which is the economic system that results.

BLT,

Bush and you have the mind of a child, that sees everything in Black and White, not understanding relativity. Me good, them bad. Blastospheres have "spirits", execute murderers. Yet, Shrub has murdered more people than Hussein, binLaden combined and for what? To continue a policy of entitlements for the rich. This ia a gross distortion of Jesus's teachings, which Shrub claims to embrace. This is not morality, this is incongruous bullshit. SHRUB IS A THIEF AND MURDERER WHO CHANGED AMERICA FOREVER BY INSTITUTIONALIZING TORTURE, THE OPPOSITE OF A MORAL BEACON. He wrapped himself in the abortion and stem cell issues for political gain.

Murtha has been taken out of context. Bahgdad is calmer than the last three years. This is a temporary consequence of using Israeli techniques to cordone off every neighborhood. No one can work or has reliable water, sewers or electricity. Like New Orleans, everyone that could afford to leave has left. Iran, the Shiites and Sunnis are laying low while Bush and Rice rant on. They are depriving the moron of any moral pretext for invading Iran. Shrub never had any legitimate moral justification for invading Iraq. His reasons changed frequently and without notice from his loyal followers. Bush is a WAR CRIMINAL and should be tried in the Haque along with Cheney and many of his cabinet members past and present.

nutcase.......please....

you write the following......

Yet, Shrub has murdered more people than Hussein, binLaden combined and for what? To continue a policy of entitlements for the rich.


and then you might actually to expect a debate or exchanging of ideas after you spout this KOOKSVILLE, far left kookery.
he has murdered more people than hussein and bin laden and he did it just so the rich could get richer.........

I may have to find a place for those lines on my material to use as I walk the streets working for the harris county republican party........

you just HAVE TO BE KIDDING......or would you like to tell us how this is true........of course for me to believe it, you might have to use a source other than cnn or moveon.org....or that hillary formed source called media matters......and hell thanks to their track record of lies and exagerations, you might have to leave out the NY TIMES as well.....
dont you guys see just how KOOKY you look when you spew this hatred and silliness?????

and let me go ahead and predict what your proof would be...

1) he murdered them because islamic terrorists killed them and if bush had not made theislamic terrorists mad, well they wouldnt have killed them........so as it is with most other issues like this......its all bush's fault

2)...the rich....haliburton is behind the scenes telling bush what to do and they make him do anything they want as long as they get paid for it...

I am willing to even give odds that these two NONSENSICAL things are almost EXACTLY what answer I would get from nutcase or most other libbys........

Commonsense wrote,

"Either way, Bush will forever be considered a failure and that is good enough for me."


So you want your president to be a failure? How about if Bush were a democrat?

Obviously your political ideology has blinded you with hatred.

Amnesty International documented 650,000 Iraqi deaths with millions more maimed two years ago. This was done by sampling regional njuries in hospitals and deaths in morgues and scientifically extrapolating National totals.

A conspiracy to privatize everything and further concentrate wealth is laid out in plain English with a full chapter of documentation in the "The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein, with the last chapter nothing but verified documentation. Others have pointed out the same problems with our "Democracy", which have been fifty years in the making.

Its not ALL Bush's fault, but he has abandoned our founding principals and killed to gain political advantage and excused crony treason and thievery. You may recall Clinton's popularity spiked when he bombed Afghanistan and invaded Serbia.

The indictments and level of corruption reflected in Abramoff, Cunningham, the Gay Republicans and on and on ...hasn't been this high since Reagan was in office. Reagan lost 48 cabinet and staff to scandals.

Politics is ALWAYS about MONEY, in spite of the rhetoric designed to obscure this fact. That's why Deep Throat said "Follow the Money". Religion is often invoked to obscure this fact.

"House Appropriations Defense Subcommittee Chairman John Murtha (D-Pa.) has taken the unusual step of publicly clarifying his remark that the 'surge is working' in Iraq." "The clarification came after House Republicans circulated an article about Murtha's comments written in Friday's edition of his home-state Pittsburgh Post-Gazette ... This morning Murtha issued the following statement through his spokesman: 'The military surge has created a window of opportunity for the Iraqi government. Unfortunately, the sacrifice of our troops has not been met by the Iraqi government and they have failed to capitalize on the political and diplomatic steps that the surge was designed to provide. The fact remains that the war in Iraq cannot be won militarily, and that we must begin an orderly redeployment of U.S. forces from Iraq as soon as practicable.'"


After that...
Then and only then, would Pelosi pull her high heel out of his ass.

kurds are at war with Turkey

yep surge is working.

hahahahahahahahaha

Murphy writess:

"...everyone said Saddam had WMD's."


That is a lie.

Bush KNEW he didnt.

BOWA

what part of NO EVIDENCE do you NOT understand. both al baradei AND blix said

NO EVIDENCE

yellow cake proven lie

bush stood the higher moral ground on stem cell research and people here and everywhere called him every name in the book and us too who supported him.......



all that happened was 8 years delay in stem cell research.

Truthy...did I miss something? Bush never outlawed stem cell research.

no but his restrictions effectively delayed stem cell research since 8/01

Hey Butt Lover

bush stood the higher moral ground on stem cell research and people here and everywhere called him every name in the book and us too who supported him.......
and now we read where we were right all along and there is no more reason to even consider the moral dilima......the recently discovered method of this research is said to be better and easier and not a part of the embryo matter.
so bush was right all along......and now we have a better and easier way to continue this important research.
SOMETHING CONSERVATIVE RETORTERS SAID ALL ALONG WOULD HAPPEN, I MIGHT ADD......

This discovery was made simultaneously in 2 seperate labs doing what kind of research?


Adult Stem cell Research?

No..

It was Ta daaa

Embryonic Stem Cell Research.

forget the fact that the researchers who discovered it said it was not a reason to stop any form of Embryo Stem Cell research. But facts always do easily escape you.


Yamanaka's team stated in the report of its findings, published in the November 30 issue of the journal Cell, that the stem cells produced by its technique -- called human "induced pluripotent stem (iPS) cells" -- "are not identical to hES [human embryonic stem] cells: DNA microarray analyses detected differences between the two pluripotent stem cell lines." The report then stated that "[f]urther studies are essential to determine whether human iPS cells can replace hES in medical applications."

Moreover, Cell's "preview" of the Yamanaka team's report, written by Holm Zaehres and Hans R. Schler of the Max Planck Institute for Molecular Biomedicine, explained why further research with embryonic stem cells is still required:

Direct reprogramming of somatic cells to a pluripotent state, thus reversing the developmental arrow of time, is considered by some to be the "holy grail" of stem cell research. Once the results in human cells are confirmed, these advances will enable the creation of patient-specific stem cell lines to study different disease mechanisms in the laboratory. Such cellular models also have the potential to dramatically increase the efficiency of drug discovery and to provide valuable tools for toxicology testing. Furthermore, this reprogramming system could make the idea of customized patient-specific screening and therapy both possible and economically feasible. Finally, the work will have a powerful impact on the intense debate regarding the moral, religious, and political aspects of ES cell research. However, a big mistake now would be to consider human ES cells obsolete. There are still many hurdles to overcome before we fully understand pluripotency and before we have human iPS cells in hand that are suitable for therapeutic application. For example, a significant proportion of mice derived from mouse iPS cells develop tumors due to reactivation of the c-Myc retrovirus (Okita et al., 2007) compared to mice derived from ES cells, which are normal. The search is now on to find a way to reprogram somatic cells without retroviruses and maybe even using a cocktail of small molecules. Given this, it should be emphasized that human ES cell research is more important than ever for it will shed light on how iPS cells can best be maintained in their pluripotent state and how they can be induced to differentiate into the cell lineage of interest. The field of nuclear reprogramming has come a long way from the initial nuclear transplantation studies in frogs 50 years ago, to the birth of Dolly, the first mammal cloned from adult somatic cells (Wilmut et al., 1997), to the fallout from the fabricated human nuclear transfer experiments of several years ago, to the landmark studies of Takahashi, Yamanaka, and their colleagues, first in mice and now in humans.

IF the US under GWB actually TRIED to build a coalition for democracy around the world, it would have taken steps into the grey zone with China and other nations, cut the crap about US leadership around the world, and, like |Reagan, have realized "You can accomplish a lot if you don't care who gets the credit."

But GWB and DICK governed like spoiled children. They had an all or everything mentality and could never raise an occupation army of adequate size to persist in a constant presence.

If GWB cared, he could brown nose Hu Jin Fu in China and get then to augment the surge. But GWB cannot deal with any nation without severely ticking somebody off.

you cant change even history from this year.

in krauthammer's article.

a QUOTE from james thompson and since so many of you from the left are experts in this and every other field, I dont have to tell you who he is....
his quote before last week....
"if human embryonic stem cell research does not make you at least a little bit uncomfortable, you have not thought about it enough"
10 years ago, he was the first one to isolate embryonic stem cells. he made this announcement last week about this discovery

and in the words of krauthammer..

"even a scientist who cares not a whit about the morality of embryo distruction will adopt this technique because it is simple and powerfull.
THE EMBRYONIC STEM CELL DEBATE IS OVER"""

so we can all see how many of you are crawfishing around murtha because you CANT STAND FOR HIM TO SAY THIS.......but again.......libs are ALWAYS WRONG When it comes to what history has to say about issues and here we have on to see...........

Mr. Murtha, a Democrat finally, yes finally admits, and I know he wasn't too happy about this sort of admission, after all he was against the surge in the first place, claiming it would never work. Saying he was wrong with being against the surge, he would never admit, and will always find faults of not obtaining every single goal or benchmark.

I agree, the Iraqis need to take more control over their security when they are ready. This is the main goal of the surge, and yes the political factor needs to be addressed. For the sake of their people and country, and they will have find ways for solutions, and leave the debate in a peaceful manner. Nobody is going to be happy with every political element, just look at the US, there is always political debate. The main thing is, the Iraqis get control of their country back which would allow our troops to come home even if there is not a full political solution. And Bin Laden will start making videos but this time, not in glee but desperation. Perhaps he is more willing to take up the global warming fight...lol

and as I was shutting the computer down earlier this morning I noticed a headline from the ap on the home page.......

it said......iraqi dead numbers down for record low AGAIN since beginnging of 06.

surge working???> not if you have an agenda other than success..........and if your agenda isnt to win, then its to lose.......

How many people understand that we live in a world of managed news. The story about the surge working has nothing to do with Bush's policies or tactics. We will never be able to hold Iraq, but the Shiites are lying low at the present time in order to deprive Bush of any excuse to invade Iran. Bush propaganda department has seized on this moment to twist that story to their short term advantage.

Either way, Bush will forever be considered a failure and that is good enough for me.

Posted by COMMONSENSE at 2007-11-30 02:17 PM |

Really. Who cares that troops continue to die daily? As long as the end product is that Bush is considered a failure the ends justifies the means.

You're a sick fuck commonsense

Why bother to comment? If Murtha (or anyone) says what the lefties want to hear, he's a hero. He Murtha (or anyone) says what the lefties don't want to hear, he is wrong.

sheeple. geez

Nutcase has it right. There is, and there has never been, enough American power in Iraq to effect any permanent outcome.

Yah. Pretty dismal. But war is a dismal science. And Bush never liked to study in the first place.

managed news


more like intentional delusions

Turkey is at war with the Kurds of Iraq,

but surge is working.

just ignore the war at the border

christ some people are stupid.