Gotta love it.


I hate schumer but he had no choice this time around.

Mukasey is Schumer's pick + Schumer already said he supports torture back in 2004:

There are times when we all get in high dudgeon. We ought to be reasonable about this. I think there are probably very few people in this room or in America who would say that torture should never, ever be used, particularly if thousands of lives are at stake. -- Charles Schumer, June 2004, Senate Judiciary Hearing

As for Feinstein -- I like her too. After getting fully briefed on the warrentlees wiretapping program -- she called it "an immpressive program".

Are Feinstein and Schumer both Jews? If so that's why they are supporting Mukasey.

And, pray tell, what does being Jewish have to do with supporting Mukasey? (Without resorting to absurd stereotypes and generalizations please.)

"First and foremost, Michael Mukasey is not Alberto Gonzales,"


I had to write to Diane and remind her that's a dumbass reason to support anyone.

First and foremost, Michael Mukasey is not Alberto Gonzales,"


I had to write to Diane and remind her that's a dumbass reason to support anyone.

Posted by TedBaxter



Just like voting for Hillary because she is a woman or Obama because he is black.



rwd

One of the saddest things I have ever witnessed are the complex arguments presented on "conservative" blogs intended to make the "water cure" somehow not torture.

We convicted and imprisoned Japanese soldiers, not that long ago, for doing this precise thing to some of our boys.

We'd prosecute some other foreigner for doing the same thing to our boys in the present day. That's why some of us are hypocrites.

"The fact that they are not subjecting themselves to having their eyes gouged out, their limbs cut off, their hands drilled through or their bodies stretched till the bones are pulled from their sockets shows that these people are well aware of what real torture is."

Since when did American morals depend on the behavior of others?

Waterboarding was recognized as torture by the end of WWII. We prosecuted Japanese soldiers for torture by waterboarding. Those pretending it's now okay, simply because WE do it, or because others do worse, are part of the problem.

Waterboarding was recognized as torture by the end of WWII. We prosecuted Japanese soldiers for torture by waterboarding.

Stop with the self-righteous bullshit already Danforth. Our "greatest generation" used a lot worse then waterboarding on our enemies during WW2. And your hypocrisy is showing-- I have yet to see you condemn Schumer for advocating ANY torture in certain circumstances. Is that because he's a Democrat?

We prosecuted Japanese soldiers for torture by waterboarding.

Link please Danforth.

That is bullshit and you know it. If we prosecuted any Japanese soldiers for "war crimes" ti was for a lot worse then waterboarding.

"Stop with the self-righteous bullshit already Danforth."

Self-righteous?!? WE defined waterboarding as torture, yet when WE do it it's not?!?!? Fuck that. You're nothing but an apologist for barbarism.

"I have yet to see you condemn Schumer for advocating ANY torture in certain circumstances. Is that because he's a Democrat?"

That's because I'm too busy pointing out to folks who want to redefine torture as whatever America doesn't do that they are part of the problem.

Moral relativism, especially in the defense of torturers, is an insult to humane people everywhere. America used to believe waterboarding was torture. When was the exact date that changed? 9/11? March 2003? Or Jan 20th, 2001?

Thank you Danforth. You've done your homework, as usual.

You're either a liar, or an ignorant fool. Or, of course, both.

Well, your a goddam liar as your link proves.

The article cites a paper that has not even been published ("in draft form") which cites "water torture was among the acts alleged in the specifications ...

What part of "among the acts alleged" did you not understand?

Also, "water torture" and "waterboarding" are not synonymous.. There are forms of real torture involving water which actually do rise to the level of torture -- such as "dunking" in a huge pool where the real (as opposed to psychological as in waterboarding) threat of death is possible. Or use of boiling water/ or ice cold water to inflict tissue dmamge or hypothermia. Or the use of immersion into filthy water so that the prisoner breaks out in festering sores over time.. or forced ingestion of water till the the belly explodes.

So you really have no idea what kind of "water torture" the japanese soldiers in your unpublished article were engaging in .

So face it danforth, you are a goddam self-righteous liar who is full of shit.

And yes I am more pissed then usual because while you excuse the torture used by our soldiers in WW2, and you excuse the torture advocated by a leading democrats like Schumer -- you instead choose to hypocritically focus on non-torture like waterboarding which is an enhanced interrogation technique that is likely being used to defend thin natioon and fight a war against Islamic radicals who have no problem using actual torture against us.

Lokisfur aka Bowa is Intellectually DIshonest to the Nth Degree. It says so in the article posted. What a shmuck.

Larry Mohr

"Yukio Asano was convicted of a lot more then "waterboarding" "

But waterboarding was one of the charges. You're parsing, desperately.

"Sure you have. If you..."

Which I never did. You're putting words in my mouth, and condemning me for those selfsame words. Strawman.

"I didn't say you defended him.. I said you excused him. You gave him a pass."

Where and when did I excuse him? Links, please.

"America losing the moral high ground over waterboarding and blame it on the Bush Administration"

Which administration should get the blame? Clinton's? Carter's? JFK's?

"then that excusing the Seantor for his comments"

Again, I never did that, tho' by my count, you've now accused me of it at least three times.

"get this through you skull -- Waterboarding is not torture."

Which gets back to my main point: you're part of the problem.

"If you can't tell the difference between pouring water over a cloth opn someone's face and drilling their hands, gouging oout their eyes or severing their limbs -- then there really is no help for you"

And if you think just because others do worse, it makes it okay for America to torture, there's really no help for you.

"If our "greatest generation" had been held to the same standards you apply to our troops today, WW2 would have gone on much longer and we could very well have lost."

You can continue to believe America can't win without debasing itself. Forgive me if I believe America is, and should be, greater than that.

"In fact, if this was 1947, you would be screaming that instead of charging japanese and soldeirs with war crimes, that our own US troops should be charged as well."

Get back to me when you have more than made-up hyperbole, and can answer the date the US stopped believing waterboarding was torture.

"I have yet to see you condemn Schumer for advocating ANY torture in certain circumstances. Is that because he's a Democrat?"

That's because I'm too busy pointing out to folks who want to redefine torture as whatever America doesn't do that they are part of the problem.


Posted by Danforth


Yes, but you did not point out Shumer redefined torture also.
Typical liberal horseshit.
Just like Hillary can`t answer the questions,neither will Danforth.
Danforth is just disingenuous.
A typical liberal trait.
Hypocrisy is another liberal talking point.

The list goes on.

rwd

"you did not point out Shumer redefined torture also."

Schumer was wrong.

"Just like Hillary can`t answer the questions,neither will Danforth."

Fat talk from barbarous apologists' who've still never answered my question: What date did the US decide waterboarding was no longer torture?

The fact remains, if it were the Hillary Clinton administration, you moral relativists would be condemning her from here to Sunday. The difference between us is, I would be as well.

"Congress itself has refused to flat-out declare waterboarding to be illegal"

Congress, foolishly, thought the Geneva Conventions spoke for themselves, especially when the US signed on to the treaty.

Congress, foolishly, thought the Geneva Conventions spoke for themselves, especially when the US signed on to the treaty.

More apologies for democrats advocating what you beleive is "torture" danforth?

"More apologies for democrats?"


Riiiight. What's next, Dems have to pass legislation endorsing free speech or they're against it?!?

First you endorse torture, now tortured logic.

"what you beleive is "torture"

Me, the Spanish Inquisition, the Gestapo, and Pol Pot.

Oh, and America.

But they won't, because that would put them on the record as opposing intelligence-gathering capabilities in time of war, and they would rather have an attorney general do that work for them. " - www.nydailynews.com

Posted by Bowa at 2007-11-03 03:00 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

First off acts of Terrorism are NOTY acts of War Lokisfuir aka Bowa. SInce they are Criminal Acts You can not declare that there was cassus Belli vis a vis 9-11(If You believe in the OFFICIAL Version) So No Act of War. No Act of War no War can be declared. Iraq We Illegally attacked another Country not only violating the US Law in doing so but the International Laws as well as the Geneva conventions. Now as far as Torture. If You support Torture You are NOT an Ameriucan. If You believe in Torture do not dare call vYourself an American nor an American Citizen and Please leave My country post haste. Thank You.

TRUE AMERICANS DO NOT ADVOCATE NOR SUPPORT TORTURE
Larry Mohr

Lokisfuir aka Bowa.

If you keep up your ignorant childlike bullshit Larry,I will call you Larry Mohr aka Dog Fucker everytime you post.
Tell me I missed the post that said it ain`t true.


rwd

TRUE AMERICANS DO NOT ADVOCATE NOR SUPPORT TORTURE

Larry, somebody who seeks to sexually abuse innocent dogs the way you do has no standing on this thread.

Hey Lokisfur aka Bowa either stick with the Topic at hand or shove it up Your god damned asshole. You Dig?>??

Larry Mohr

Same goes for You RightWingDOm.

Larry Mohr

Larry aka "bestiality pervert" -- you are a sick individual who sees nothing wrong with sexually abusing innocent animals -- as I said before, reading what you wrote about what you intend to do with dogs creeped me out no end. For you to make any comments against "torture" is the definition of hypocrisy.

Larry Mohr aka dog fucker,

Can`t keep off the asshole references can you?

ps,
If i want to stray from the topic to denounce a pervert, i will.
Got It?
The end.

rwd

Impressive argument for torture you've made Bowa.

Larry maybe an old joke would be instructive:

"Two guys are in a bar and one says to the other, I've lived here all my life and you see all these tables and chairs, I built every one of them . But do they call me "Larry the Carpenter?" No sir. And you see that school across the street, I layed almost every brick in that school, But do they call me "Larry the Bricklayer?" No sir. And do you see, do you see, that beautiful hot rod across the street. That car has won every race it's ever been in. But do they call me "Larry the drag racer?" No sir. they don't. But you fuck one dog....."

mpressive argument for torture you've made Bowa.

I made no argument for torture. I only pointed out that it is ridiculous to call waterboarding torture

Post a link to doggy sex on bestiality.com and see where it gets you.

Even sadder than watching complex, sophistic defenses of the "water cure" on conservative blogs, is watching them here.

An interested person would find quickly the United States has been prosecuting it's own soldiers for waterboarding since the Phillipine Resurrection.

A uncaring person would, of course, continue to do what uncaring people do.

I find it fascinating some NEED to see their own country as being vicious in the past in order to justify viciousness in the present.

Americans aren't supposed to be vicious, though. We're supposed to be a shining city on a hill. And, if we ever truly become something else. I'm pretty sure there are millions of us that Canada would gratefully accept as emigres.

Yeah Lokisfur aka Bowa I am one sick disgusting mother fucker but at least I am HONEST Here. That is more than I can say about You ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Larry Mohr

Sorry---That would be "Phillipine Insurrection"---The Phillipines has never been crucified and come back to life, as far as I know.

Yeah Lokisfur aka Bowa I am one sick disgusting mother fucker but at least I am HONEST Here. That is more than I can say about You ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

So Larry aka "bestiality pervert" thinks he has achieved some moral high ground by being "outed" about his intentions to sexually abuse innocent animals.

I guess you got your definition of honesty from "Michale Vick" huh Larry aka "bestiality pervert" ?

This deserves a 2nd post.

Larry maybe an old joke would be instructive:

"Two guys are in a bar and one says to the other, I've lived here all my life and you see all these tables and chairs, I built every one of them . But do they call me "Larry the Carpenter?" No sir. And you see that school across the street, I layed almost every brick in that school, But do they call me "Larry the Bricklayer?" No sir. And do you see, do you see, that beautiful hot rod across the street. That car has won every race it's ever been in. But do they call me "Larry the drag racer?" No sir. they don't. But you fuck one dog....."

"...thinks he has achieved some moral high ground..."

OMG...a poster claiming waterboarding isn't torture is now lecturing on moral high ground.

"This deserves a 2nd post."

Um, no...it doesn't.

Bowa, tell us again when you found Christ. I like that story.

Bowa, tell us again when you found Christ. I like that story.

Yav, I'm glad you liked it. I hope you are not suggesting that because I am a Christian, I am not allowed to be disgusted by larry's desire to sexually abuse innocent animals?

OMG...a poster claiming waterboarding isn't torture is now lecturing on moral high ground.

Dan, Absolutely. Because Waterboarding isn't torture, and sexually abusing innocent animals is wrong.

"sexually abusing innocent animals is wrong."

But he didn't. He inquired about it. I'm not defending anything, just pointing out there's a difference.

"Because Waterboarding isn't torture"

No matter how many times you repeat that vileness, it still doesn't change the fact America prosecuted the Japanese for it.

"...I hope you are not suggesting that because I am a Christian, I am not allowed to be disgusted..."

Of course not...everyone knows Jesus was pro-waterboarding, right? I mean, WWJT?

No matter how many times you repeat that vileness, it still doesn't change the fact America prosecuted the Japanese for it.

That's simply a lie as I pointed out in previous posts -- the "water torture" the japanese were convicted of doing involved "forcing" water down the throat and nose in conjunction with beatings and burning prisoners with cigarettes.

"Waterboarding" involves pouring a small amount of water over a prisoners face that has been covered with a cloth or a piece of plastic wrap with a hole in it. And in a previous post there is a link to a video of a journalist who subkects himself to "waterboarding". There's no way someone can look at that video and call it "torture". I should say there is no way a reasonable person could look at it and call it torture.

But he didn't. He inquired about it. I'm not defending anything, just pointing out there's a difference.

And I have made sure in my post to acknowledge that difference in my posts of 5:27 and 5:58.

And I have made sure in my post to acknowledge that difference in my posts of 5:27 and 5:58.

and 6:14 too.

Waterboarding---whatever your tortured definition of it is, has been considered torture by the United States.

What date, exactly, did that change?

If we waterboard bow wow, how long will it take before he calls it torture?

I'm betting 15 seconds.

I'm betting 15 seconds.

Posted by Zatoichi at 2007-11-03 06:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

"an average of 14 seconds"

See?

I was being generous to bow wow.

But then again, Bowa is not a reasonable person.

You're over by ten seconds.

Posted by TreesGoneWild



Off by one for the pros.
So you think bow wow can last 5?
Let's find out.

"You're over by ten seconds."

Posted by TreesGoneWild


Yeah, some guys don't last long.

"Proponents argue that the technique effectively produces information while only being used as a last resort to obtain critical information. They also argue that there is almost no risk of long-term bodily harm.[22] Opponents argue that this information may not be reliable because a person under such duress may admit to anything.

The UN Convention Against Torture, which the United States ratified in 1994,[23] says in Article 2, "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture."

Then we might wonder how often overzealous agents overdid it.

"Poorly executed waterboarding can cause extreme pain and damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, and sometimes broken bones because of the restraints applied to the struggling victim. The psychological effects can last long after waterboarding ends. Prolonged waterboarding can also cause death.[20]"

Debunking the "waterboarding isn't torture" line of bullshit:

Waterboarding is a form of controlled drowning used to extract information. Numerous experts have described this technique as torture.

From the article about the Spanish Inquisition (1478-1834, with its most active period from 1480-1530), a form of torture similar to waterboarding called toca , along with garrucha (or strappado) and the most frequently used potro (or the rack), was used (though infrequently) during the trial portion of the Spanish Inquisition process.

=====

During World War II, Japanese troops, especially the Kempeitai, as well the Gestapo, the German secret police, used waterboarding as a method of torture.

=====

The Khmer Rouge at Tuol Sleng used waterboarding as a method of torture between 1975 and 1979.

I'll accept a mea culpa Bowa if you are man enough to admit you are wrong.

hans sad So much for the "waterboarding isn't torture" line of bullshit.

Source

Hans

first you shouldnt swear becoz it makes baby jesus cry.

now because you are wrong about what tortue is i need to explain it to yuo.

when those other poeple did the surfboarding it was torture because they were evil, pole pot was a bad man and so were the nadzis and the gespacho and the kumar rouge. they were all evil and mean and so when they did the surfboarding it was torture.

when america does the surboarding it is not torture because god loves us and we are not evil. see? its all different when america does it. we do it because if we didnt the terrorists and the fashionists would all come over here and kill us. the ones of us that they didnt kill would be forced to wear parkas and turbines all the time even in the summer even in the hot parts of the country like missouri and ggeorgeia.

so you see now why america has to surfboard, because it we didnt the fashionists would take over.

thank you.

Of course Bowa knows exactly how the U.S. tortures, I mean uses water boarding. It's well documented. Oh, it isn't? M-kay then.

You see, waterboarding isn't torture - at least not the way we say we do it, not that we're saying we do it. No, we can't tell you how we don't do it, or how we do it, if we did it. All we can tell you is that we don't do the really, really bad kind. You know, the "torture" kind. Actually we do a very nice form of it. I mean we don't even do the really, really nice kind - but if we did, it wouldn't be illegal, because torture is illegal and we don't torture. See?

"I should think there's no reason reasonable people would look at it and call it torture...."

If Bush were waterboarded, how many minutes before he gave up all US nuclear codes, or at least babbled a list of numbers he hoped someone would accept for codes?

"Spare me the self-righteous bullshit...."

Well, you sort of make it easy. In your world you would do such things. In my world, we would not.

"Compare what he goes through to these examples of real torture in an al-qaeda handbook on torture:"

Bowa continues to use logic a 2nd grade teacher wouldn't allow. The sad fact is many Americans buy into this we're not wrong, 'cause others do worse horse manure.

Sorry, America has never judged itself by the barometer of other country's barbarisms. Yet you want us to start, because Bush does it, and more importantly, Rudy will do it. You're part of the problem.

What I think is fascinating is the concurrent assertion by the Neoright that threatening the children of a detainee is also not torture.

Personally, I'd rather be waterboarded than to have my children in harm's way of evil people, which is anyone who would threaten them.

Those who support torture who claim to be Americans are NOT Americans. TRUE AMERICANS DO NOT ADVOCATE NOR SUPPORT TORTURE.

Larry Mohr

I'm not sure of this, but it appears to me that Muslim torture didn't begin until AFTER the US invaded Iraq.

"Applying the term torture to waterboarding is done only for maximum effect."

"Senator John McCain, the Arizona Republican who championed legislation to outlaw inhumane interrogation techniques and was himself tortured as a prisoner of war in Vietnam, has described waterboarding as "very exquisite torture.""

So what "maximum effect" is McCain going for?

You see Larry, Bowa cares more about dogs then humans.

Good point Ray. Very good point.

Larry Mohr

"You should re-evaluate your priorities...."

No, thank you. You have your world and I have mine. I like mine a lot better.

Just curious---If that fellow had broken after being singed with a hot poker for a mere minute and a half, would the poker no longer be defined as torture?

"Waterboarding. It Just Ain't Torture."
-bow wow

Try it, or STFU.

Just curious---If that fellow had broken after being singed with a hot poker for a mere minute and a half, would the poker no longer be defined as torture?
Posted by Zed

He wasn`t poked with a redhot poker now was he?
But,yes that would be beyond the bounds.
Next.
I can hear it comming.



"Senator John McCain, the Arizona Republican who championed legislation to outlaw inhumane interrogation techniques and was himself tortured as a prisoner of war in Vietnam, has described waterboarding as "very exquisite torture.""
So what "maximum effect" is McCain going for?

Posted by Danforth



There isn`t anything that John McCain says that interests me in the slightest.
Never did,never will.
Because he underwent brutal torture by the NV gives him a right to say what he pleases on this subject.
To answer your question directly,I think the word torture is used as an overt means to put the US on par with the tactics used by the muslim extremists.
Waterboarding terrorists is on the order of mental duress then anything else.
No harm to the body no lasting effect.
If the article is correct, then it seems we don`t do it as a routine exercise to gain information.
To at least try to understand where you are comming from, I ask just how far should the US go in trying to gain information from extremist prisoners.


rwd

"Waterboarding. It Just Ain't Torture."

Oops:

"Senator John McCain, the Arizona Republican who championed legislation to outlaw inhumane interrogation techniques and was himself tortured as a prisoner of war in Vietnam, has described waterboarding as "very exquisite torture."

If waterboarding isn't torture why did a japanese "interrogator" get 15 years for it as a war crime?

Oh, it's only illegal when we do it. Gotcha.

"To answer your question directly,I think the word torture is used as an overt means to put the US on par with the tactics used by the muslim extremists."

I asked about McCain. Am I understanding correctly: you think McCain was trying to put the US on par with Muslim extremists?!?

I asked about McCain. Am I understanding correctly: you think McCain was trying to put the US on par with Muslim extremists?!?

Posted by Danforth at 2007-11-03 11:49 PM | Reply | Flag:


Is McCain supporting Bush this week? The answers to both of those questions are going to be the same. Every time.

let me quote from Danforth's link:

"In 2006 the Senate Judiciary Committee held hearings on the authority to prosecute terrorists under the war crimes provisions of Title 18 of the U.S. Code. In connection with those hearings the sitting Judge Advocates General of the military services were asked to submit written responses to a series of questions regarding "The use of a wet towel and dripping water to induce the misperceptions of drowning (i.e., waterboarding) . . ." Major General Scott Black, U.S. Army Judge Advocate General, Major General Jack Rives, U.S. Air Force Judge Advocate General, Read Admiral Bruce MacDonald, U.S. Navy Judge Advocate General, and Brigadier Gen. Kevin Sandkuhler, Staff Judge Advocate to the Commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps, unanimously and unambiguously agreed that such conduce is inhumane and illegal and would constitute a violation of international law, to include Common Article 3 of the 1949 Geneva Conventions.

We agree with our active duty colleagues. This is a critically important issue - but it is not, and never has been, a complex issue, and to suggest otherwise does a terrible disservice to this nation. . ."

Signed by:
Major General John L. Fugh, USA (Ret.)
Read Admiral Don Guter, USN (Ret.)
Read Admiral John D. Hutson, USN (Ret.)
Brigadier General David M. Brahms, USMC (Ret.)

But what do they know?

conduce=conduct*

No harm to the body no lasting effect.
Posted by rightwingdon

Ask any abused person whether this is true or not.

The bruises go away faster than the Mental Abuse.

"KSM lasted the longest under waterboarding, about a minute and a half, but once he broke, it never had to be used again," said a former CIA official familiar with KSM's case.

Torture is Torture and should not be condoned by the United States. I thought that was what the Geneva Convention was for.