God Bless our troops. They are doing an outstanding job.

Let's hope this encouraging trend continues.

A little something for everyone...the surge is working crowd:

What happened this time is we stayed . . . so now the people said, 'Hey you're staying,' and once they see we're staying with Iraqis and the Iraqis [army and police] are staying with us and getting much better and treating the people with dignity and respect, they start coming forward with tips," said Brig. Gen. John Campbell, U.S. deputy Army commander for Baghdad.
...
Despite professed optimism, Campbell admits that he has fought to rein in a sectarian agenda during the American troop buildup. Early on, Campbell struggled to stop Shiite government officials from giving direct orders to arrest Sunni targets.

Until six or seven months ago, Campbell was being handed target lists by Iraqi security officials that contained only Sunnis. In reaction, he stormed out of a few meetings.

"I'm sick and tired of having just Sunni targets," he said. "The next week I had Sunni and Shia. Every week since then there has been sort of a balance of Sunni and Shia."

Campbell said that since Americans put Iraqis' feet to the fire, Iraqi security commanders have started to police their own. Even so, an Iraqi national police unit, active in the mixed district of Sadiya on Baghdad's strategic southeastern rim, was recently removed after repeated allegations of attacks against Sadiya's Sunni population.

The relative calm has come in part through the U.S. military's willingness to work with former Sunni insurgents to fight foreign extremists as well as to work tacitly with the moderate elements of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada Sadr's Mahdi Army militia to stabilize neighborhoods.

That is encouraging news and anytime there are fewer deaths- American and Iraqi - is a good thing.

The problem is that we need to Iraqi government to get their asses in gear to do the civil/political things necessary to consolidate these gains. And so far that isn't happening.

And if that doesn't happen we are likely to be stuck being their muscle for quite some time.

many mixed shiite sunni neighborhoods have been cleansed

we are now arming and empowering those who have attacked and killed our troops

Zero political progress

troop surge will end

turkey now attacking kurds in north.

deaths in october equalling and/or surpassing septembers,

yeeeee haaaa we are down from teh high.

tis a good thing that US soldier deaths have dropped

tis smells like surrendering to the enemy.

The deal with the devil crowd:

Baghdad's Rashid district, for example, was once an area with a majority Sunni population. After years of violence, its population is about 70% Shiite.

Securing the area has meant coming to an understanding with the same militia responsible for expelling the Sunnis, American officials acknowledge.

"It's the reality of western Rashid," said Army Lt. Col. Patrick Frank, whose battalion is responsible for the area. "Everyone we deal with is" a member of the Mahdi Army, he said.

Frank has sought a truce with what he views as the movement's moderate wing and praised what he sees as its positive role in guarding outdoor markets and managing trash collection. At the same time, he said, he has continued to target its radical elements.

His willingness to engage the Mahdi Army through its intermediaries helped lead to a reconciliation agreement last month between Sunnis and Shiites in Rashid's Jihad neighborhood. A small number of families from both sects have slowly started to return to their homes, said Dr. Anas Zaidi, who attended some of the reconciliation talks but no longer lives in Jihad.

For Shiites in neighborhoods across Baghdad, many still see the militia, not the government, as their legitimate defender.

In New Baghdad, Mohammed Ashraf, 28, described sectarian cleansing as the heavy price of safety. "It's a popular Shiite neighborhood and therefore it's only natural that they shall prevail. They work in coordination with both the Iraqi police and army," Ashraf said. "Sure there are some negative aspects in them, but the positive ones outweigh those, such as providing essential services and security to the people."

The Mahdi Army has turned the west Baghdad neighborhood of Hurriya into a haven for Shiites driven out of nearby Sunni areas like Adil during last year's sectarian cleansing. The local militia had also expelled its own Sunni population. Now the Mahdi Army rules the area in cooperation with the U.S.-sponsored neighborhood council.

"Did you hear of stealing cooking gas, tanks, cars or motorcycles in the Shiite areas? There is none. It never happens. It is very rare. This is because of the Mahdi Army," said resident Hazim Muhsin.

And in the largely Sunni enclave of Ghazaliya, residents say the protection they receive from American troops has made a world of difference. Where Shiites were forcibly and bloodily evicted, Sunni men now stay outside till 10 or 11 p.m., sitting in lawn chairs. The light spills outside from a barber shop open late. One night, a string of cars from a wedding party drives down the street, passengers honking their horns.

"I expect to live in Ghazaliya the rest of my life. This is our home," Azzawi said. "Now that it is pure Sunni, it is better for us.

"Now the Americans are with the Sunnis and against the Shiites," he said.

And the It will never work crowd:

The dangers of ceding power to armed groups has also become clear in the Sunni neighborhood of Amiriya, where the Americans forged a partnership in June with residents and former insurgents known as the Amiriya Revolutionaries fighting such foreign-inspired insurgent groups as Al Qaeda in Iraq. What U.S. officers have hailed as a success -- and a model that has spread to other neighborhoods -- has left some Sunnis worried that they are at the mercy of thugs parading as freedom fighters.

"Those who deal directly with the people are the Revolutionaries. We have trust in them but not 100% because we don't know what they have inside them or what they will do tomorrow," said a resident, who was afraid to give his name. "Some of the Revolutionaries have taken over houses abandoned by Shiites who left."

Even Campbell expressed some doubt about what would happen with the Revolutionaries' leader, Abu Abed, an ex-member of the Islamic Army insurgent group.

Abed has played the role of sheriff in Amiriya. If there is a problem, for instance a tenant refuses to pay his rent, Abed will resolve it. But as the Americans draw up plans to add 12,600 police officers in Baghdad, many of them from Amiriya, it remains unclear what Abed's intentions are. Will he join the government system or stay outside?

"I've talked to Abu Abed. We say, here is the deal. . . . You've got to do something as part of the government. You ain't gonna be no mercenary. He understands that. I don't know what he wants to do yet," Campbell said.

Some who have emerged relatively unscathed from the violence are pessimistic.

Ahmed Shakir, an 18-year-old high school student in west Baghdad's Yarmouk neighborhood, has taken advantage of the perks of the U.S. buildup. The young Sunni has played basketball at night outside. He has visited marketplaces as far away as east Baghdad's Sunni Adhamiya district.

But he has no faith in the future. He predicts the country will be divided between "Shiitestan" and "Sunnistan."

This summer, his three best friends' families left for Syria.

"I can't leave Iraq," he said. "Most of my friends, we hear about Iraqis who left the country, how they are living in humiliation. What options do I have?"

reality IS the incorporation of militia into official iraqi security forces.

and this is considered victory.

could you imagine 3 or 4 years ago where victory or "progress" would be seen as the empowering of sunni and shiite militia ie death squads ie Moqtada al Sadr boys to control their barrios?

the reason violence is down is cause all the local enemies are dead or gone.

we have surrendered to the terrorists who were attacking us to achieve enough peace and quiet to allow bush to declare victory and leave.

yep everything is fine.

just ignore the lack of political progress the 40% unemployment the 70% of children who dont go to school, the war between turkey and the kurds, etc.

Moreover, American forces have felt it necessary to make tacit deals with groups that have been involved in the sectarian cleansing, and many Baghdad residents who have not been killed have fled.



American forces have felt it necessary?????????


hahahahahahahaha

you mean Generalisimo Bush ordered them to surrender to the terrorists who have been attacking us forces.

making deals with the scumbags drilling holes in people.

making deals with scumbags shooting people in the head

making deals with scumbags planting IED's killing our soldiers.

making deals with scumbags shooting down our helicopters.

but

...the surge is working....the surge is working... the surge is working.....

IMO, the surge has succeeded in doing what it was intended to do, namely quell the violence so that the Iraqi leadership can get their act together. We can't force them to do it, but under our responsibilities as the UN approved Occupying Force, have an obligation to help provide an environment so that the Iraqis' can become self sufficient.

Whether they do so or not is obviously up to them.

See Troofy, I said that there would be something for everyone in this article.

Whether they do so or not is obviously up to them.


and we have put the safety of our troops under the conditions of political progress by Iraq, why?


to achieve said peace allowing said opportunity for political progress, we have engaged, ie provided guns and money, to those people and groups that have attacked US forces, why?

yes enough spinning to make Marie Osmond faint, oh wait a hole lot more spinning than that, how bout enough spinning to make the tasmanian devil puke.

and we have put the safety of our troops under the conditions of political progress by Iraq, why?

Because we caused the mess, like it or not, in the first place.

so the safety of our troops is no longer in our control?

and that is considered acceptable?

The safety of our troops is always in the control of their superior officers, who in turn report to the commander in chief, who you revile with every fiber of your being.

I know that you don't like the fact that we are in Iraq in the first place, but get used to the idea that we will be there for a very long time, much like we have been in South Korea, Japan, Germany, Italy, etc.

The number of Iraqis killed in insurgent and sectarian attacks rose in October, according to government figures obtained on Thursday, in a blow to a nine-month-old US troop surge policy. At least 887 Iraqis were killed last month, compared to 840 in September, according to the data compiled by the interior, defense and health ministries.

"(U.S.)Willingness to work with former Sunni insurgents...."

This statement reveals why we've had so much trouble in Iraq.

These Sunnis referenced, are they still armed and organized?

So, they aren't "former" anything. They've just taken a temporary advantage, just like we did in giving them more weapons.

"Get used to the fact we will be there a very long time....'

Really? To give Iraqi government another twenty years to get it's act together?

And, if they still aren't stable after that, another twenty years?

It would be more practical, given how much what used to pass for conservatism LOVES Iraq, to give Iraq Statehood, or at least a deal like Puerto Rico.

Is, was, and continues to be a sick joke.

Zed-

I didn't say you had to like it, just that you had better get used to it. Either that, or tell me how I am wrong (i.e. how it would be accomplished, when, and whether or not we would get or even expect compensation for the Huge bases that we have built).

roc, I do not claim that you are wrong, I have been using the tag line Iraq Get Used to It for 3+ years now.

I am very unhappy with what america has become, unfortunately until myself and others with a similar voice can gain power this is what we are stuck with.

but I will continue to point out hte lies and costs of follies like this.

BTW that is fine to mention South Korea and Germany and Japan, but I dont recall us losing 40 to 100 soldiers a month in those countries long after Mission Accomplished, I dont recall us spending hundreds of billion per year to maintain our presence there.

How long can we maintain this pace? Economically, militarily, politically?

I didn't say you had to like it, just that you had better get used to it. Either that, or tell me how I am wrong (i.e. how it would be accomplished, when, and whether or not we would get or even expect compensation for the Huge bases that we have built).

Posted by Rightocenter at



interesting that that is your measure of value returned, compensation for huge bases built.

nothing of any measurable compensation for the lives lost.

"Even expect compensation...."

To understand these things, I usually ask myself what Texans would do.

Texans would boot foreign troops in a heatbeat, and confiscate what property they were never asked to construct in Texas.

Now, that doesn't mean some snivelling SOB like Rick Perry wouldn't delay the inevitable for a bit, seeing as how he'd be the first one shot when the invaders left.

oh and Right, I dont believe we have control of our troops any longer, Bush has given the Iraqi politicos control over our presence in Iraq, we will leave when they are ready essentially.

well that removes the US from teh equation. as a result we expend our soldiers lives for iraqi politicians, politicians who have shown zero desire to resolve political problems and why should they, we will protect their asses and they are enriching themselves in the process.

nothing of any measurable compensation for the lives lost.

Posted by truthhurts at 2007-11-01 07:51 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag:

The right don't give a fuck about the troops TruthHurts You should know that by now. Oh and someone declared correctly on Tree's Cry Freedom internet radio show doomaflatchy thingymajigger that the Right cheer on the deaths of Our Service Members because they declare only 1 a day has died that isn't bad oh and they always try and deflect to other wars casualty rates when comparing the lives lost in Iraq. These folks don't give a shit about the troops its all to save face for supporting an Illegal Immoral and Unjust war that they lack the courage to own up to.

Larry Mohr

Nice to see you, Larry.

BTW that is fine to mention South Korea and Germany and Japan, but I dont recall us losing 40 to 100 soldiers a month in those countries long after Mission Accomplished, I dont recall us spending hundreds of billion per year to maintain our presence there.

How long can we maintain this pace? Economically, militarily, politically?


Posted by truthhurts at 2007-11-01 07:46 PM

"Mission Accomplished" was idiotic, and is one of those things that makes you shake your head, regardless of which side of the spectrum you inhabit. Needless to say, the war is still going on, it is just different then it was in the first 25 days.

As for the lives lost, no one can compare this war to any prior war, but I agree that each life is precious. Don't forget, however, that the US spent almost 13 Billion Dollars (1951 Dollars, at that) on the Marshall Plan rebuilding most of Europe and about 3 Billion Dollars rebuilding Japan, almost 10 Billion if you count all of South East Asia. That doesn't count what it cost to maintain 350,000 troops in Japan until 1952 and 200,000 troops in Europe until 1950.

We can't maintain the current pace much longer by any measure, but will maintain about 30,000 troops indefinitely on Iraqi bases.

THANKS ZED That means allot to Me.

Larry Mohr

Larry-

Good to see you back...

and that you are still spewing the same nonsensical gibberish.

:^)

Yea....Larry's back!!!

The death toll is down. So what? I don't see any white flags yet. Maybe the Iraqis figured out that they can bleed the US economically just as badly without as much killing.

The death toll is down. So what? I don't see any white flags yet. Maybe the Iraqis figured out that they can bleed the US economically just as badly without as much killing.

Tell us again how you support the troops Ray?

Yeah I figured it would be better to come back or else Mike Siesel wins. Thanks Guys.

Larry Mohr

Lokisfur aka Bowa speaking the truth never denigrates nor does it not support the troops.

Larry Mohr

I was hoping you would ask, Bowa. It takes stupid kids to let themselves be used as cannon fodder for power hungry old men. And it takes stupid people like you to imagine this is a war of defense.

It takes stupid kids to let themselves be used as cannon fodder for power hungry old men. And it takes stupid people like you to imagine this is a war of defense.

Tell us again how you support the troops Ray?

Lokisfur aka Bowa speaking the truth never denigrates nor does it not support the troops.

I don;t think you are in a position to talk about denigration larry.

Lokisfur aka Bowa don't talk to Me about not having a position of denigration. You may think of Me as You want to but I am not here on a daily basis denigrating Liberals for Sticking up for this Country Unlike You do constantly Lokisfur aka Bowa. Oh and Thanks for the emails that you have sent Me in the past 2 weeks just goes to show Me what kind of "Person" You really are.

Larry Mohr

Tell us again how you support the troops Ray?

Look kid. This is not oral conversation. If you are too stupid to grasp what I wrote the first time, you can read it over and over until it sinks in.

..the surge is working....the surge is working... the surge is working.....

Posted by truthhurts

You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the ass.

Oh and Thanks for the emails that you have sent Me in the past 2 weeks just goes to show Me what kind of "Person" You really are.

I haven't sent you any emails ever. Nor would I ever. I made the mistake of doing a google search the other day on you to find out what the whole "issue" was about you -- and it creeped me out. Sickened me actually.

now run along. Others might have a use for you here. I don't.

Look kid. This is not oral conversation. If you are too stupid to grasp what I wrote the first time, you can read it over and over until it sinks in.

Tell us again how you support the troops Ray?

I must have missed it with all your posturing and namecalling going on.

Lokisfur aka Bowa I may be a sick Son of a Bitch to You but By God at least I am an Honest one. The Least You could be is HONEST with Your stories.

Larry Mohr

This is good news for all concerned, anytime less people are dying violently everyone should be heartened by that news.

That being said, I agree with TH: there is no "compensation" for lives lost, especially in a debacle like Iraq.

I strive for accuracy, Bowa.

stupid
adj
1. unintelligent: thought to show a lack of intelligence, perception, or common sense
a stupid mistake

Your ego prevents you from perceiving what is obvious to me.

Death Toll Down in Iraq


Yes and when there are no more Iraqis in Iraq the death toll will be zero!

Iraq will only be a sucess when it returns to a sense of hegomony as it had before the war. With Iraq so segretated now, as soon as we leave all hell breaks loose anyway. So, we stay 10 years? 20 years holding our finger in the dyke?

There were Catholics and Protestants in Iraq before the war. Everyone pretty much got along. Not now. We not only upset the fragile balance within Iraq, but also kicked out the primary foe to Iran and gave them more power upsetting the balance of power in the entire ME. Nice going.

PS I'm glad for now that the death tolls are down

Everyone pretty much got along.

Living in fear of being murdered and/or jailed by a cruel and vicious dictator is not the same as getting along.

The death toll is down. So what? I don't see any white flags yet. Maybe the Iraqis figured out that they can bleed the US economically just as badly without as much killing.
Posted by Ray at 2007


Wow - you must be a real hoot at birthday parties and weddings.

The dems are in trouble and loving it.... the surge is working. The worst thing that could happen is happening, it is working......lol... enjoy...

Then what are all the State Department weenies crying about?

"It's (Surge) working...."

Uh, and when it's over in a few months, what keeps the lid on? Simple question, so I'm sure there will be a response never.

But it would be nice if you had a response. I'll bet if you did, you could get on any number of news programs as well as Letterman double quick.

Time will tell, but it *is* better over there. At least for now. I am not sure why people have a hard time admitting that.

The same holds true with North Korea. We held to it and continued the multi-national negotiations rather than going in uni-lateraly like so many wanted us to do and now North Korea is cooperating (as much as they can).

I would hope someone in the White House is paying attention. When we did the Iraq thing uni-lateraly it was (is) a mess. When we get others to come along and work with us, it seems to have worked.

The real problem is to get Russia and China to cooperate. I am not sure how that happens as long as we are not willing to play hard-ball with them. I still believe China needs us more than we need them. After all, who would they sell all their stuff to if we were not buying most of it.

I have said it before, it may be that we have to wait until something very drastic happens before the rest of the world has a desire to do something about Iran. I hope that at that point it is not too late.